Could I have some help on the subject of death please?

[LSHAFC2004]

Hi all. I am need of some help. I have always seen death as an eternal dreamless sleep down. This use to comfort me whenever I had an awful fear of it. Recently though, I have suffered a bit of depression with this particular saying "Once we are dead, it would be exactly the same if I had never been born" At first you may think this as mad, but consider it like this, after a long hard working day, you go to sleep at night. Now whilst you are asleep (if you are having no dreams), you HAVE lived the day, but if you HAD never lived the day, would you be able to tell the difference? No because you are asleep. If you HAD never lived the day, whilst your asleep it WOULD be exactly the same. The same goes for life, life is the day, death is the sleep. But this sleep is for eternity. The saying I stated bugs me cause it seems the reality is, once I am dead, it makes no difference to me if I had been born or not because if I had never been born it would be exactly the same if I had been born. I would be exactly the same as an unborn. Could I please have some help on this as am struggling to get to grips with it?

[Alter]

Easy. You get your time here on earth. While you are here, you get to choose how you affect the world around you. When you are gone, you are GONE. Not an endless sleep, NOTHING. There is no blackness, there is no void.

All of your experiences occur while you are living. So in essence, you are ALWAYS ALIVE, to *you*. You will never experience a single moment when you are not alive. Sure, the world goes on after you die, but you will not experience any of it.

However, your works will continue on. Did you have children? Did you do nice things for other people? Did you write a book or teach a skill or build a building? Those things continue on. Even if you only made a few small kindnesses, remember that the flap of a butterfly's wings can create a tornado.

Should be afraid of death? ABSOLUTELY NOT. What, exactly, is there to be afraid of???? Remember, death is technically the end of all your experiences. You will not be judged. You will not see God, or the Devil, or a long sleep, or a bright light, or a void, or anything. You WILL NOT SEE. All your experiences are in your brain, and it will cease to function.

You're perfectly justified in being afraid of DYING. You don't want to suffer or be scared while dying. You're also correct in worrying for others, or being mad that you didn't get to do what you wanted to do while you were alive. But death itself is nothing to be feared, for it is nothing.

So go out there and carpe diem! Get something done today, because this is the only time you have. Do, create, build, organize, enjoy, love.

[xxthe_leewitxx]

This seems more like a topic for the Secular Lifestyle forum.

the Leewit

[Agemegos]

Hi all. I am need of some help. I have always seen death as an eternal dreamless sleep down. This use to comfort me whenever I had an awful fear of it. Recently though, I have suffered a bit of depression with this particular saying "Once we are dead, it would be exactly the same if I had never been born"

That's only if you never do anything that makes a difference to anybody. So it is a problem that is entirely within your power to do something about. You can make a difference, and with a very little effort you can leave the world a better place than it would have been without you.

Start doing a good deed every day. Work up to volunteering or raising a child.

And go to see a clinical psychologist practicing cognitive-behavioural therapy.

[LSHAFC2004]

Sorry all. I posted this in the wrong area. I am new to infidels and didnt know where to put it. :banghead:

[LSHAFC2004]

That's only if you never do anything that makes a difference to anybody. So it is a problem that is entirely within your power to do something about.

You all seem to be a bit mistaken. It is not whithin my own power at all.My original problem stems from the following statement which if we consider if that there is no afterlife, and nonexistence follows death, whether we like it or not, is actuallly true. The statement is

"Thus, for me (being nonexistent and without the ability to experience or
even remember), there would be exactly no difference, no distinguishing, between my
having lived a life and my never having lived at all."

Can you all see where I am coming from now? :thumbs: :down:

[BSM]

"Once we are dead, it would be exactly the same if I had never been born."

Perhaps from a self-awareness perspective; however, during the time that you ARE aware there is much that you can do to contribute to society in a positive fashion. In addition, some of the things you do will likely live on in the memory of others.

Your scenario seems to be similar to the Cartesian Evil Genius® hypothesis. According to one version of the CEGH, you (i.e., the brain in the vat) and an evil God-like deceiver are the only things that exist. All that you experience is directly caused by the manipulations of this evil entity. Thus, you have no way to know what the “real� reality is because you are trapped in an illusion that’s beyond your control.

Scenario two is just as probable as scenario one (i.e., your nonexistence). In fact, I would much PREFER nonexistence over the CEGH. Whatever the case, no one has been able to answer these two questions with certainty: 1) Where did “all this� come from? 2) Is there an afterlife? In fact, we have some educated hypotheses and some uneducated speculation or wishful thinking. But, to date, a concrete answer is nonexistent.

So, try not to worry about things that you really can’t control. IMO it’s a much better use of our time to self-actualize and also to contribute to society in a meaningful fashion while we ARE “aware�, than it is to waste energy worrying about things we can’t control. Finally, I second Agemego’s comment. If the worry gets too bad go “see a clinical psychologist practicing cognitive-behavioral therapy.�

~BSM

[LSHAFC2004]

Perhaps from a self-awareness perspective;
Well surely form a self awarness point of view, this makes life pointless? After all to us self awarness is everything. If when I'm dead I am non-existent. Then throughtout life we have the saying, "Whats the point living, once I'm dead it would be exactly the same if had never lived at all, in 50+ years time, if I had never done anything in my life it willl be exactly the same"(to me at least. But even then when my relatives and friends die it will be exactly the same to them if they were never born)

Where can I go from here? :o

[Alter]

There's really two points to living:

(1) have some fun while you're here, and

(2) leave your mark on the world.


Most of us have some idea how to do #1. For #2, sure, if you have very little impact on the world around you, in 50 years your life will have meant nothing.

But if you put a little effort into it, your contributions can live on. Have kids, and pass on your genes into the gene pool, to live on as part of humanity. Start a charity. Even if it only runs for a few decades, you may positively impact hundreds or thousands of lives, and just maybe you'll be the straw that broke the camel's back, you'll turn someone's life completely around.

Build a monument. Write a book. Do everything you can to make your mark, to change the world.

Watch the movie AI, near the end, when they get Jude Law, listen to his final words. THAT'S the point of life, making people know you existed, leaving your mark on this world, shaping it in your vision.

Don't dwell on death, for death is nothing. Work on your LIFE, because it's all you get!

[LSHAFC2004]

Cheers Alter, but I still dont feel right about the self awarness and same as never being born thing. :(

[Alter]

You're assuming that self-awareness is eternal. It is not. We have finite lifespans. After you're dead, you are not aware.

But why dwell on the time after you are dead? You should worry about what you can do now, and what legacy you will leave to the world.

Here's another way to think about self-awareness: to YOU, your awareness lasts forever. There will never be any time in your experience where you are dead. Yes, someday your awareness will stop, but you won't notice it.

If somebody were to threaten to kill me, would I be afraid of being dead??? No. I wouldn't want to die, though, this is all we have, our existence, and I'd like to keep mine going as long as possible. I would be upset that my plans are not finished, and I'd be comfortable with plans I have completed, like life insurance to make my family wealthy. But ending my self-awareness does not bother me.

[LSHAFC2004]

But you do realise that my statement is still valid. It will be absolutely the same once non-existent, if you had never been born?

[|2eason]

Whilst what Alter is saying is true, that you should live your life to the full, your statement still remains valid, and indeed, it goes further than that even. When you die, your life loses all its meaning. You and everyone that ever knew you and everyone you effected will die, and maybe even the human race too eventually. All the effort may be for nothing eventually.

Evolution has created in us such a profound level of consciousness that our very mortality seems horrific to us. It's a fact of life, without it we would not be here, but I can't help thinking it is not for us, that we are too 'good' for death. We need a cure, imo.

I take comfort in the fact that at some point in the future we may figure it all out. I guess it gives me a reason to live, you know, the whole "working for a better future" deal. A healthy fear of death can be quite a positive thing, as long as you don't dwell on it too much.

[Alter]

If you want to get all sci-fi about it, the eventual goal is to NOT DIE, i.e. live forever.

Sadly enough, a "virtual immortality" is within the grasp of our imagination. Immortality can be achieved by having the tech to copy yourself, and to retain stored copies in a safe place. Should you die, a relatively up to date copy can be obtained. The "soul" question will trouble the theists, but not us.

When this state is reached (300 years???), unfortunately just beyond what we could expect to live to, we can work on the larger question, which is surviving the end of the universe. Currently, it looks like the end will be cold and lonely, as acceleration continues unabated. Thus we need to find a way to create a new universe and pass through our information, or find a "wormhole" to a newer universe, etc., otherwise, we'll eventually run out of energy as the universe cools to zero. That part is mostly beyond our current level of imagination. But if it can be done, immortality is the ultimate goal.

Since we as beings will die (being born just a few hundred years too early), we must resign ourselves to passing on our info through children, our works, our writings, and our deeds. Also, getting yourself frozen at death isn't such a bad idea, either.

[Viti]

But you do realise that my statement is still valid. It will be absolutely the same once non-existent, if you had never been born?

Yes, to YOU. If you are significant in the lives of others though, it isn't the same to them.

Anyway, you're here now, so why worry about before being here or after being here?

[itsallsemantics]

Yes, as far as many of us know, when you are dead it will be (to you) as if you had never lived, in that you will not exist. Most of us will not even leave a lasting impact on the world. Most of the humans who have lived are not even corpses anymore, they have faded out of memory. Not only that, from what we know about our solar system, at some point the sun will die and take our planet with it, and unless we have somehow moved to another solar system, the human race will likely disappear.

Pursuing this question leads to an ever-increasing despair over the finiteness of our time and impact. There is no "point" to life.

However, there is also no "point" to playing Scrabble, posting on internet forums, falling in love, reading novels, going hiking, or pretty much anything else we enjoy. It's up to you to enjoy it anyways. Your limited time here can lead to an increased appreciation of life rather than disillusion.

[LSHAFC2004]

Well then if this all your conclussions. It really does mean all our lives are pointless. What is the point in living a life, being good, when once dead to us it never happened in the first place. There is none. You are living in the false world if you are trying to assisgn a meaning to life from the following conclusion.

[|2eason]

On the contrary, the meaning of your life is what you yourself ascribe to it, or we as a collective assign to it. There can be no other definition. Meaning is something 'we' ascribe, the entire universe is meaningless without us. Indeed, without us, the universe serves no purpose and whilst we may not be the reason it came into being, we justify it by our very existence.
When we live our lives to the fullest or when we are 'good', we do so not because of some ordained purpose, we do so because we choose to, for the good of everyone, not just ourselves.
We could be all 'bad', we could make the world a terrible place or all commit suicide, because we have free will to do this. But we choose not to, because we want to be good and we believe in our own worth as individuals and as a species. This is just as 'real' a concept as any that is set is stone. Indeed, if meaning were set in stone, we would have no freedom and life would only then be truely pointless.
Death is a terrible thing, but it doesn't in any way undermine the value of life.

[seebs]

Well then if this all your conclussions. It really does mean all our lives are pointless. What is the point in living a life, being good, when once dead to us it never happened in the first place. There is none. You are living in the false world if you are trying to assisgn a meaning to life from the following conclusion.

I guess I don't see why I should care. Right now, the way I live my life matters to the people around me. What do I care about anything else?

[LSHAFC2004]

The only way we can subscirbe meaning to life is if we take death as a good thing. Would any of you agree with we take death as a peaceful, dreamless,unending sleep and the end of a meaningful life. Otherwise you are giving meaning to nothing. There is no meaning to life if in the not so long future, to us the meaning never happened. The NOW exists for a small time only and in the not to distatnt future the NOW will of(to us) never existed in the first place. This will be the same for eternity. I do not like to be persemistic but the only obvious conclusion we can draw from this is that all atheists who do not belive in life after death are accepting nihlism is the true in reality,philosophy .

[|2eason]

we take death as a peaceful, dreamless,unending sleep

That sounds like a bloody nightmare! And it would trivialise life to the point of making it worthless.


atheists who do not belive in life after death are accepting nihlism is the true in reality

Nihlism is a selfish attitude that doesn't consider the species as a whole. We live for 'us' not you alone.

[LSHAFC2004]

That sounds like a bloody nightmare! And it would trivialise life to the point of making it worthless.


Nihlism is a selfish attitude that doesn't consider the species as a whole. We live for 'us' not you alone.

Just think about it. There is nothing more peaceful and relaxing than adreamless sleep at the end of a busy day. A dreamless sleep for eternity sounds great. :thumbs:

I am not a nihlist but with all your conclusions you are making nihlism yourself as the only possible outcome. :down:

[socratoad]

I guess I don't see why I should care. Right now, the way I live my life matters to the people around me. What do I care about anything else?

Surely your intellectual reach is well enough developed to actually conceive of caring for the welfare of future generations. In my understanding of life (reverence for life) if our development of consciousness has developed this far then surely by dint of believing in the process of evolution coupled with the Golden Rule, we as functioned sane human beings this concept would naturally follow.

As for all this nihilistic shit, either one loves engaging in useless mind games or one is quite ill.

[|2eason]

Just think about it. There is nothing more peaceful and relaxing than adreamless sleep at the end of a busy day. A dreamless sleep for eternity sounds great. :thumbs:

I've thought about it plenty, it would be a prison for my consciousness.

I am not a nihlist but with all your conclusions you are making nihlism yourself as the only possible outcome. :down:
I have to admit, I came to the nihilist conclusion too, but it lead me to a veiw that boarders on transhumanism, so I can't help you much. I would say though, that nihilsim ignores the fact that time is a dimension. Just because your life means nothing at some point in the future, doesn't take away the value of it in the now. When you die, you will still have lived (pasttense), which is better than never having lived at all.

[BSM]

The only way we can subscribe meaning to life is if we take death as a good thing. Would any of you agree with we take death as a peaceful, dreamless,unending sleep and the end of a meaningful life. Otherwise you are giving meaning to nothing. There is no meaning to life if in the not so long future, to us the meaning never happened. The NOW exists for a small time only and in the not to distatnt future the NOW will of(to us) never existed in the first place. This will be the same for eternity. I do not like to be persemistic but the only obvious conclusion we can draw from this is that all atheists who do not belive in life after death are accepting nihilism is the true in reality, philosophy.

No, I would not agree with this. First, should we construct our hypotheses towards what we want to be true? Or, should we follow the evidence wherever it leads us (I choose the latter)? Second, the standard definition of nihilism goes something like this: existence is without meaning, purpose, value, or comprehensible truth. If this definition of nihilism is true then it suffers from the same problem that post modernism suffers from. Namely, if we can’t comprehend truth, then how can the nihilist say that his/her theory is true?

So, I do not accept nihilism as true because it cuts itself off at its own knees. What we have here (if I’m reading you right) is a matter of differing opinions. There is nothing about “reality� to show that you have made a factual error when you state: The only way we can subscribe meaning to life is if we take death as a good thing. For that matter, if I happen to think that existence matters very much (irregardless of what may or may not happen at death), again, there is nothing about the structure of reality that says I have made a factual error.

In other words, existence (while we have it) can mean very much to an atheist. Or, in your case, it appears to mean very little.

~BSM

[Alter]

You have a choice: Nihilism, or a more *positive* form of Atheism.

Nihilism certainly is a valid choice. 10,000 years from now, will anyone remember you? Nope. Will you remember being here? Nope. So who the fuck cares? Perfectly logical.

Me, I choose the other path. I'll make whatever mark I can. 10,000 years from now, we'll still know who Washington was. The guy who had 15 kids will still have his genes in the pool. I'll work, write, procreate, and build as many things as I can while I'm here. Plus, I'm going to have fun, too, and try to do the same for my kids.

[Viti]

I do not like to be persemistic but the only obvious conclusion we can draw from this is that all atheists who do not belive in life after death are accepting nihlism is the true in reality,philosophy .

Nope, I am an existentialist. I am here, didn't ask to be here, don't know why I am here, but here I am. Might as well make the best of it.

[LSHAFC2004]

So we are all agreed. The conclusions you all give considering death as the end prove Nihlism is right.
:)

[Alter]

I disagree, in the long run. Nihilism says it's all for naught. I say our works carry on, if we can find a way to pass the knowledge forward.

The goal is eternal knowledge. The obstacle is the death of the universe.

[BSM]

So we are all agreed. The conclusions you all give considering death as the end prove Nihlism is right.

LSHAF, no, we are not all agreed.

From my previous post:

"Second, the standard definition of nihilism goes something like this: existence is without meaning, purpose, value, or comprehensible truth. If this definition of nihilism is true then it suffers from the same problem that post modernism suffers from. Namely, if we can’t comprehend truth, then how can the nihilist say that his/her theory is true?

So, I do not accept nihilism as true because it cuts itself off at its own knees. What we have here (if I’m reading you right) is a matter of differing opinions."

~BSM

[seebs]

Surely your intellectual reach is well enough developed to actually conceive of caring for the welfare of future generations.

Sure. Those are among the "people around me", so far as I'm concerned. My sphere of awareness is a little hypothetical in that direction, but I still believe in it.

As for all this nihilistic shit, either one loves engaging in useless mind games or one is quite ill.

Probably. :)

[Viti]

So we are all agreed. The conclusions you all give considering death as the end prove Nihlism is right.
:)


Um no, not unless your definition/understanding of nihilism is far different than mine.

[Bluenose]

Nope, I am an existentialist. I am here, didn't ask to be here, don't know why I am here, but here I am. Might as well make the best of it.

:wave:
Wish I could sum it up that well.

:thumbs:

Maybe I will post more since we have those "new" smilies :love:

[His Noodly Appendage]

I didn't exist for billions and billions of years before I was born, and it didn't distress me in the least. I don't see why subsequent billions of years of non-existence should be any worse.

jbc

[LSHAFC2004]

OK. Just think about. We are here. We are typing in this forum. So of us may have families, friends all sorts of great things in life. Then you think again in a few amount of years, it never happened. None of it ever happened. you never had a family, you never had friends you never typed on this forum. Ok maybe in spacetime we did, but to us there never was any spacetime. To us none of it ever happened. How can you enjoy the now if in the not so long future, the now never happened. This is a logical conclusion but unfortunately to us it is the only one. :o
So really nihlism looks the only option even if you try to assign a meaning to the now. Whats the point? the now never happened. :o

[Ape31]

OK. Just think about. We are here. We are typing in this forum. So of us may have families, friends all sorts of great things in life. Then you think again in a few amount of years, it never happened. None of it ever happened. you never had a family, you never had friends you never typed on this forum. Ok maybe in spacetime we did, but to us there never was any spacetime. To us none of it ever happened. How can you enjoy the now if in the not so long future, the now never happened. This is a logical conclusion but unfortunately to us it is the only one. :o
So really nihlism looks the only option even if you try to assign a meaning to the now. Whats the point? the now never happened. :oWell it did happen but you just won't know it because you, your personality, will no longer exist. You seem to be coming from the position that because your personality ends then nothing matters. Doesn't follow in my opinion.

Is there anything that matters that is not everlasting? If so then surely life is it.

Ape31

[BSM]

First, you need to rescue nihilism. As I said before: if the nihilst cannot comprehend truth, then how does the nihilst know that his/her own theory is true?

Second, what Ape said.

Third, what I said:

What we have here (if I’m reading you right) is a matter of differing opinions. There is nothing about “reality� to show that you have made a factual error when you state: The only way we can subscribe meaning to life is if we take death as a good thing. For that matter, if I happen to think that existence matters very much (irregardless of what may or may not happen at death), again, there is nothing about the structure of reality that says I have made a factual error.

In other words, existence (while we have it) can mean very much to an atheist. Or, in your case, it appears to mean very little.

One does not necessarily follow the other. In other words, once we cease to exist (whether we really do or not is another matter) we will have no knowledge of our present reality. So, you are correct (assuming that nonexistence is correct) in stating that "To us none of it ever happened." However, once you get to nonexistence you will have no memory period (or so we assume), so the notion of nonexistence really doesn't bother me because I would not be self-aware.

You write: "How can you enjoy the now if in the not so long future, the now never happened."

Apparently many of us can and it was discussed on this thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=110928).

So again I restate myself: What we have here (if I’m reading you right) is a matter of differing opinions...In other words, existence (while we have it) can mean very much to an atheist. Or, in your case, it appears to mean very little. Also, you appear to directly corrolate the value you get out of the "now" with the "here-after" (or lack thereof). Not all of us do. So, if you are having trouble dealing with the thought it may behoove you to find a counselor who practices cognitive behavioral therapy.

As I said elsewhere: Don't spend too much time worrying about the here-after because you may find that the now has passed you by.

~BSM

[LSHAFC2004]

To be honest there is a get out cause to all of this.

1. Once we are gone, there is no us. So when we say to us it will be like we had never been born. We are wrong because how can it be to us that we were never born if there is no us.

2.For something to be like something or to be us if something. It requires time for when it can be like something. Clearly after deaththere is no time for us, when we exist and something can be like something.

3. Before we were all born, it was not like to us as though we were never born. We never knew we were never born. So to us when we HAVE been born, once we are dead it will not be like we were never born.

4.From a self-awarness perspective. There will be no us after death, so when we say to us it would be exactly the same if we had never been born, we are wrong because there is no us and time where this can be true.

Are we agreed on this? :thumbs:

[Viti]

I still think you're using an odd definition of nihilism, perhaps you can explain it in a breif sentence or two. Anyway, here is the difference between what you seem to be positing, and what I believe to be true.

You: Life doesn't matter because it's not permanent.

Me: Life is the only thing that matters because it's not permanent.

Basically, this existence is all we know. We're here, now. We weren't always here, won't always be here. What we do during it matters to us because it's all there is for us.

[BSM]

To be honest there is a get out cause to all of this.

1. Once we are gone, there is no us. So when we say to us it will be like we had never been born. We are wrong because how can it be to us that we were never born if there is no us.

This assumes that there is no "here-after." The fact of the matter is that we really don't know.

2.For something to be like something or to be us if something. It requires time for when it can be like something. Clearly after deaththere is no time for us, when we exist and something can be like something.

This assumes that there is no "here-after." The fact of the matter is that we really don't know.

3. Before we were all born, it was not like to us as though we were never born. We never knew we were never born. So to us when we HAVE been born, once we are dead it will not be like we were never born.

This assumes that there is no "here-after." The fact of the matter is that we really don't know.

4.From a self-awarness perspective. There will be no us after death, so when we say to us it would be exactly the same if we had never been born, we are wrong because there is no us and time where this can be true.

Possibly. However, this assumes that there is no "here-after." The fact of the matter is that we really don't know.

Are we agreed on this?

Apparently not.

~BSM

[LSHAFC2004]

[QUOTE=BSM]This assumes that there is no "here-after." The fact of the matter is that we really don't know.
I am talking about the atheist’s point of view. The little concept of an afterlife is discussed in Keith Augustines" The case against immortality" I suggest you read it as it makes the afterlife seem a non-starter.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2086622#)

I quoted this earlier, for them it will be like they were never born. Would any of you agree that taking the ATHEISTS view, this is wrong because there is no "them" for which the saying to "them" and "it will be like" can exist. :thumbs: :down:

[BSM]

I am talking about the atheist’s point of view. The little concept of an afterlife is discussed in Keith Augustines" The case against immortality" I suggest you read it as it makes the afterlife seem a non-starter.

My apologies if you directed the reader to this particular article earlier--I missed it. Regardless, this explains much. However, I still disagree with "the atheist's point of view" as related to an afterlife. You make it sound as if there is one view and only one view: nonexistence.

This is not accurate. There are some Eastern atheists who do believe in an afterlife or a soul. However, they do not believe in a personal god. Quote from HERE (http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa110100a.htm).

"Most atheists - at least in the West[emphasis mine] - don't believe in any sort of souls or afterlife."

In fact, without digging deeper, I'm pretty certain that Buddhists believe in neither a God or a soul, yet they do believe in an afterlife. They believe that we are reincarnated, in one of six realms (human, animal, hell, god, ghost, and titian realms). In effect, there is a naturalistic cycle of other lives and death is just a continuation of this natural cycle.

I quoted this earlier, for them it will be like they were never born. Would any of you agree that taking the ATHEISTS view, this is wrong because there is no "them" for which the saying to "them" and "it will be like" can exist.

In relation to "two atheistic" points of view on death (i.e., yours and Keith Augustine's), I would agree with your statement.

Regardless, as an atheist I am presently agnostic in regards to an afterlife and I don't really concern myself with death because I value the now.

~BSM

[pairadocs]

You seem to be repeating that non-awareness both before birth and after death means once you're dead it's as if you never lived? There's a logical gap the size of a yacht in there.

If I walk around the block, I start out and end up at my front porch. I'm not in the alley or at the corner anymore, there's no getting around that fact, but there's also no getting around the fact that each of my footsteps subtly shifted particles in the dirt. Maybe I stepped on a bug. Maybe I helped someone with a heavy load on my way. I affected stuff I never would have if I hadn't taken that walk.

It's over, yeah, but it didn't never happen.

[Jobar]

Go closer, hold the land
Feel partly no more than
Grains of sand
We stand to lose all time,
A thousand answers by
In our hand.
Next to your deeper fears
We stand surrounded by
Million years.
I'll be the roundabout.
The words'll make you out'n'out.
I'll be the roundabout.
The words'll make you out'n'out...
-Yes

LSHAFC, let me suggest you get either Does It Matter? or Cloud-Hidden, Whereabouts Unknown by Allan Watts. A middlin' famous philosopher who died in 1973, his books are in most libraries. And I personally think he was one of the wisest men who ever lived. I think you'd find him a great help to you.

[BSM]

I re-read the Augustine article (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html) and as near as I can tell, it does not touch upon the definition of nihlism that I am familiar with.

Whatever the case, assuming that nonexistence is correct, then I agree with paridoc:

It's over, yeah, but it didn't never happen.

Furthermore, once it is over you'll never know so it's not like you'll be spending eternity knowing that you don't know. :thumbs:

~BSM

[SLUGFly]

Hi, you seem to have already received a good helping of positive advice. I hope that I'm not too pretentious in quoting my own work to you. This is from "The Ministry of John Burroughs," Chapter 12, "We the Dying."

1. When survival becomes simple it is time to experiment. When you can't find new things to experience it is time to teach. When you have nothing left to teach, there is nothing new to experience and nothing to learn, it is time to die and die you will.

2. You will die.

3. Death is the one fact underlying everything, we must all accept it. We do not fear death, we celebrate it as the great going away. All of our thoughts, all of our feelings are generated by our physical bodies. All of our memories are contained in our physical bodies. When we die our body ends and all this ceases to be. With no body we won't experience anything similar to what our body has, there is no need to fear anything.

4. We do not concern ourselves with what happens after death, there will be time for that after we die. We must concern ourselves with what happens before death and before death is life.

5. It is enough to know that we will die, it is as natural and right as being born.

6. As we age we can see how with each sunset a week has gone by and at every full moon a year has passed. What we once eagerly anticipated is now a rough memory with a decade of dust and scratches. The end is rushing toward us and all we ever have is right now. We realize that soon, right now will be time to die.

7. We will not be entertained as though we are sitting and passing the time, waiting to die. We experience life with the deepest thirst and we attach ourselves to something bigger than our own lives. We become part of something that will live on after we are gone, something more important than our short lives; something infinite.

8. We build, love and teach the New Earth.

If you're interested (though this is the only chapter that deals with death) you can find the entire first draft here: http://www.geocities.com/drslugfly/ministryindex.html

[LSHAFC2004]

Its all about our memory. I cannot face the fact that I will lose all my memory. Because after I've lost all my memory, my whole life will be like it never was. Or after I've lost my memory, is there no more time after that where it can be like I never was? Is death like an eternal, dreamless,peaceful sleep? I belive so, but do any of you. Most humaist scolers do. :thumbs: :down:

[Viti]

Is death like an eternal, dreamless,peaceful sleep?

Have you ever been under general anesthesia? It is different than sleeping, in that the entire period of time simply doesn't exist for you. Natural sleep has such a cyclical nature, I am always aware that time has passed...not so with GA, you're awake, then you're awake and it's several hour later. No sense of that time at all. I think death is like GA, total nonexistence.

[LSHAFC2004]

But do you agree that there is no time at all after death for us where our lives can be like they never were. Did you have any memories under GA. Did you have any memories? Did it make your whole life seem like it never was?

Also, when you are not dreaming at night, how can you have awarness of time? :)

[Viti]

But do you agree that there is no time at all after death for us where our lives can be like they never were.

IMO, death is nonexistence. There is no "it will be like". It will no longer be at all, not be "like" anything. This life, this existence is all to any individual. That's why I think it's important, because this is it.

Did you have any memories under GA. Did you have any memories?

Unless something goes terribly wrong, as it sometimes does and people are aware, there are no memories. That time does not exist for you, at all.

Did it make your whole life seem like it never was?

There is no "seem", there is nothing in between being awake, and being awake several hours later. The being awake is uninteruppted and seamless, only the clock tells you that the time between existed.

Also, when you are not dreaming at night, how can you have awarness of time? :)

Because sleep is cyclical, so you become unconsciously aware of time passing during the lightr parts of the sleep cycle. Maybe others don't feel this way, but I have been under general anesthesia 4 times and a lighter form 4 times so I have something to compare and contrast with, and it is unlike natural sleep.

I was told to imagine a ladder going down 10 rungs, at the bottom is coma, at the top is total alertness. Sleep vascillates between rungs 3 and 4, GA is around rung 7.

[LSHAFC2004]

Obviously death is 10 on the ladder. And it remains 10 for eternity. Not so bad really when you look at it. No time, no awarness and proberly quiet a peaceful rest from the busy life we have led. So it is not a case of we have lost all our memory, rather we dont exist in spacetime to be able to remember, just like GA and dreamless sleep. And others will remember us. :thumbs:

[Face]

Lots of interesting philosophy in this thread.

I would take a less rational approach: Busy yourself with work and play until you don't think about it any more. Put it out of your mind and don't dare visit it again. You know you're going to die, fine, but you needn't spend one single second sitting around planning and assembling a personal philosophy that makes it okay.

Why? Becuase, as you mustn't forget, you have some valuable living to be doing in the meanwhile. Just beat that acceptance of the inevitable into yourself, whether it means anything or not, and go have some fun.

[LSHAFC2004]

Cheers all. I will be happy if we agree that death is an eternal dreamless, peaceful sleep, and that after death we dont lose our memories, rather than like during sleep, we have no awarness of any time where it is possible to remember. :)

[Viti]

Obviously death is 10 on the ladder.

Death doesn't exist on the ladder of consciousness. 10 is coma, dead is dead.

I will be happy if we agree that death is an eternal dreamless, peaceful sleep, and that after death we dont lose our memories, rather than like during sleep, we have no awarness of any time where it is possible to remember.

Huh? Death is nonexistence. Why do you need us to agree to nonsensical musings? Are you uncomfortable with "ceasing to exist"?

[LSHAFC2004]

There is no distguishing between the two. Take my word. When I say sleep, I mean DREAMLESS sleep. You have no memory or awarness or perception of time in dreamless sleep. When you go to sleep at night and awake in the mouring the whole sleep does not seem like the 10 hours or so you were asleep. If you had no dreams it would seem like no time had past. When you have dreams it feels that some time has passed, but we are not dreaming all night so it only seems like a small amount of time. The time we perceive in sleep is dreaming in sleep. Otherwise each night, it would seem like a long time. In the moring it seems like hardly no time has passed between the mourning and previous night. Not the full 10 hours, so there is time in dreamless sleep you we are not percieving time or our memories. Death is like that, a DREAMLESS sleep. The only difference is, that we never wake up. :)

[Viti]

There is no distguishing between the two. Take my word. When I say sleep, I mean DREAMLESS sleep. You have no memory or awarness or perception of time in dreamless sleep. When you go to sleep at night and awake in the mouring the whole sleep does not seem like the 10 hours or so you were asleep. If you had no dreams it would seem like no time had past. When you have dreams it feels that some time has passed, but we are not dreaming all night so it only seems like a small amount of time. The time we perceive in sleep is dreaming in sleep. Otherwise each night, it would seem like a long time. In the moring it seems like hardly no time has passed between the mourning and previous night. Not the full 10 hours, so there is time in dreamless sleep you we are not percieving time or our memories. Death is like that, a DREAMLESS sleep. The only difference is, that we never wake up. :)

Okay whatever. You seem to require a simile of some kind to make you happy so you keep using the word "like".

[SLUGFly]

You sleep for 10 hours? I envy you friend.

We do actually dream all the night long (off and on probably about 75 to 90%). But it doesn't "feel" like we dream all night because we only remember the dreams that are interupted by our consciousness coming back to us. This accounts for (even in the most vivid and long lasted dreams) about 10 to 30 seconds... maybe a minute tops.

I agree with you that "in theory" death would be like a dreamless sleep... but here's something to ponder:

LSD guru, Timothy Leary, said that in the moments before death our brains continue to stay active for up to 10 or 15 minutes after all of the body functions have ceased (ref. french revolution guillotine victims whose eyes rolled around looking and whose mouths continued moving after they were beheaded). With no body to keep us going we slip into a dreamlike state for the final 10 to 15 minutes of our life. Given that the longest of dreams is but a few seconds this could mean that we would live out the equivalent of an entire life or even several lives after we die.

Myself, I hold to my original post's key comment. "Why worry about what happens after death, there will be plenty of time for that when we're dead. Now is the time to think about what happens before death, and before death is life."

[LSHAFC2004]

Yeah. Thoughs dream like states are called NDE'S.To be honest when our brain dies it only takes a few minutes before our brains die permanetly. No time, no awarness, no memory, nothing. Our lives are over :)

[BSM]

No time, no awarness, no memory, nothing. Our lives are over :)

So does the smiley indicate that you've reached peace with what you think happens at death? Or, are you trying to assert that your position is the correct position on death? Or, for that matter, are you trying to imply that we (meaning atheists in general) are headed towards some sort of impending doom and that our lives are meaningless?

Please explain.

Regards,

BSM

[SLUGFly]

Meaning is the same as value, it's completely imposed on something by the person making the claim. And we are all headed towards the same kind of impending doom. Even if there were a heaven and hell, even if there was reincarnation, even if we continued to exist in ghost or spirit form, even though (as I believe) there's nothing, we all have to face the fact that everything as we know it will end and that we will eventually fail our most basic instinct to continue living and growing (possibly second to protection of offspring).

[Legend]

If I could choose between life after life and non-existence after death, I'd probably choose the second one. In fact, I also agree with LSHAFC that we won't feel anything after death.

Given eternity, the microscopic chance that you'd start being bored with life and/or hate continue existing becomes a 'sure thing.' Given enough time (eternity) one might start regret existing.

Also, I wouldn't think life would be meaningless if death is the absolute end of life. We enjoy the holidays even though we know they'd end later on.

[LSHAFC2004]

I feel a bit better as long as I know that all my memory exists until I die only. That there is not a single secound where to me my life can be like it never was. As long as memory is lost only after time ends and my coinessness and awarness ends.(Obviously getting brain damage is different) :)

[BSM]

So have have reached peace. Good!

Now go enjoy life!

~BSM

[LSHAFC2004]

Cheers all. You have helped me alot. I will go and enjoy life again. I know nihlism is s*** and absoulte rubbish. Humaism is the only way. :)