Virginia HB1677 - Have Miscarriage, Go to Jail?

[never been there]

Legislative Sentry: HB1677 - Have Miscarriage, Go to Jail? (http://democracyforvirginia.typepad.com/democracy_for_virginia/2005/01/legislative_sen.html) (Page down to get past Howard Dean's not dead yet site headers).

AAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

And I don't even live in the US, never mind Virginia, but even a straight white male Canadian has to get spooked at sharing the same continent as this stuff.

[perfessor]

If this ridiculous bill gets passed, I think someone there should organize some "civil obedience." What if, say, 50% of all women of childbearing age filed a police report of fetal death every four weeks? How long before the cops would throw up their hands and say, "enough!"?

[Styrofoam]

If this ridiculous bill gets passed, I think someone there should organize some "civil obedience." What if, say, 50% of all women of childbearing age filed a police report of fetal death every four weeks? How long before the cops would throw up their hands and say, "enough!"?

That's probably illegal. Knowingly giving false information to police or something.

[perfessor]

That's probably illegal. Knowingly giving false information to police or something.
Well, Martin Luther King was willing to spend a few nights in jail...

[coltsfan]

This whole proposed law is hogwash anyway. It obviously violates a woman's right to privacy. It would be an easy challenge if someone actually was charged of a violation. Though I am not sure how or who would know to file charges in the first place. This law was likely meant to make some constituents feel good.

[deja voodoo]

That's probably illegal. Knowingly giving false information to police or something.

I just posted about this in the Politics forum. It's an utterly horrendous proposal.


As for "false information", no it wouldn't be as you could argue that you are reporting the loss of "products of conception". (Assuming, of course, that you have had sex within that month's cycle).


In fact, as UberLutheran (a cool dude if there ever was one) said at CF, perhaps all women in Virginia should send to Cosgrove some of their menstrual blood every month till he cans his proposal. I think that is a splendid idea.

[simian]

Assuming that a person believes that life begins at conception, then is it unreasonable for them to want all miscarriages reported? I would be very concerned if there were people dying around me of unknown causes and there were no police investigations. For all I know they could be poisoned (intentionally or not) - I want the authorities to know that somebody had died and have some basic report on how they died.

I have little to no doubt the effort is to make a fertilized egg a "person" in the eyes of the law. On the way to outlawing various things: abortion (obviously), RU 486, the "morning after" pill, perhaps even the birth control pill (I can't tell you how many times I have been at prochoice events and and been given a flyer by the protesters saying that the birth control pill is really an abortificant). There are probably quite a number of things I am overlooking, some that may have a more noble mission, but I think the base of the bill is to make a fertilized egg a "person" in the eyes of the law. I do not think it is unreasonable for women on the BC pill who are sexually active to send in their menstrual flow - after all, if the anti-choicers are right, there could be an aborted fetus in it, and it is therefore the site of a potential homocide.

Simian

[g-21-lto]

Legislative Sentry: HB1677 - Have Miscarriage, Go to Jail? (http://democracyforvirginia.typepad.com/democracy_for_virginia/2005/01/legislative_sen.html) (Page down to get past Howard Dean's not dead yet site headers).

AAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

And I don't even live in the US, never mind Virginia, but even a straight white male Canadian has to get spooked at sharing the same continent as this stuff.
Holy crap, and I live in Virginia! So does my mom. What an asinine and stupid bill. Oh, wait -- obviously, of the women in Virginia who have miscarriages, a very large portion performed an illegal abortion, even though there are more sanitary legal abortions available! This bill is sorely needed!

[g-21-lto]

I do not think it is unreasonable for women on the BC pill who are sexually active to send in their menstrual flow - after all, if the anti-choicers are right, there could be an aborted fetus in it, and it is therefore the site of a potential homocide.
Actually, why can't we extend this principle to a homicide occuring every month that the woman does not have sex/uses contraception and the egg dies? I mean, that egg was a potential life.

[Toto]

same topic in PD (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=111512)

There's not really much to say on this, except it is unlikely to ever pass.

Early miscarriages are so common that, if you believe that god created life and life begins at conception, then you have to accept that god is the biggest abortionist of them all.

In Romania under the former Communist dictator Ceaucescu, abortion was strictly illegal. Women got periodic gynecological examinations to check up and be sure they weren't getting illegal abortions. That's where this could head if it weren't for "activist" judges who think that the Constitution gives us some rights.

[Tzar Bomba]

That's probably illegal. Knowingly giving false information to police or something. Actually, the state cannot expect the citizens to have medical knowlege. If you were charged with a crime for reporting miscarriages that didn't really take place, how would a judge or jury be able to tell if you didn't really think you had a miscarriage? Unless the law requires the woman to save the resulting material from her miscarriage for later inspection, and requires that she know what the hell it is, there is no way to establish criminality.

Reporting a ton of fake miscarriages is an perfect way to use civil disobedience. Of course, once a woman's reproductive system becomes property of the state, this will no longer be effective. So much for the reproductive rights of Americans.

.......Everyone please get in line and fill out your "permission to mate" forms. Please proceed through the door at the end of the hall to provide samples that can be analyzed for approval. Return to the waiting area to receive your assigned mate.............

[Shake]

On this very issue at another forum, someone said:I was just reading up on this a bit more at this blog (http://democracyforvirginia.typepad.com/democracy_for_virginia/2005/01/lesgislative_se.html). Apparently Cosgrove used the term "fetal death" in the legislation, not 'miscarriage'. So that at least supports his claim that it was aimed at fetuses, despite the fact that (as <another user> pointed out) current VA law defines "fetal death" as (in part) "death prior to the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception, regardless of the duration of pregnancy".

Update: If I had kept reading that blog to the next page before posting here, I could have pointed out that Cosgrove sent an e-mail to that blogger including the following:My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries. However, after discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, I have decided to include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are claimed to have been stillborn and that are abandoned as stated above.
Apparently they can't prosecute a woman for abandoning a baby unless they can prove the baby was born alive, and after 12 hours it's nearly impossible to prove. I'm not really clear on how this legislation fixes that problem, though...
Also, apparently VA is one of 7 states with similar laws on their books. I asked there -- but no one's replied yet -- if anyone knew what the other 6 states are. Anybody here know?

[NotQuite]

I just thought I'd let everyone know that this ridiculous bill has been withdrawn due perhaps to the efforts of disscussions like this one.

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=80370&ran=43780
-NQ-

[PatrickHays]

I read about the bill this morning . . . This is such bullshit! :angry: Glad to hear it has been withdrawn, what I read this morning just stated that it was going to be reworded.