A younger perspective: split from When one spouse deconverts

[Quite Content]

This was split from this thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=109777).
sakrilege, SL Moderater
-----------------------------------------

G'day everyone,

I've been reading the site with great interest these last few months and found this thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=109777) particularly relevant. I'm in my early 20s and have been with my Christian girlfriend for over 3 years. During that time I've become keenly interested in existence and religion, however I've been a firm (and outspoken) agnostic for the last year or so. My girlfriend and I are very serious about our future together and we concede that religion is really the only sticking point in our relationship. We discuss it quite often and are both aware of each other's views, however my problem of late has been an increasing inability to respect her position as a Christian. My time on this site has only further entrenched this!

Now to my query. Reading this thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=109777), it seems that most of you are speaking from within a marriage. My essential dilemma is this: Is it worth persevering in a relationship when you are fundamentally at odds with regard to the meaning of life?

Clearly I don't expect anybody to be able to answer that for me - mine is my problem alone - but I'd be very keen to hear any responses. I currently harbour an image of single life as one where I would be able to freely pursue my philosophical interests without fear of offence. I have no doubt that this is a delusion on my part - but the grass is, evidently, always greener... Has anyone ended a relationship because of religious differences and if so, what were the consequences?

Best wishes
QC

[sakrilege]

I felt this post was different enough from the original thread it was posted in to deserve it's own thread.

[jmem]

This depends greatly on just how religious she is, and how much patience you have. I was nominally Christian when I married my husband, and he had never seriously questioned his Christian beliefs. If I had been a militant atheist at the time and dismissed him just because he was a Christian, I'd have missed out on a fantastic marriage and a wonderful man.

That said, he has been with me as I deconverted, had time to slowly get used to the idea of having an atheist for a wife, and re-examined some of his beliefs as well. If he had been more zealous in his Christianity...feared me going to hell, insisted on us going to church and trying to "save" me, or if he was bent on indoctrinating our children or horrified when I told them my beliefs...then I'm not sure it would have worked out so beautifully.

Tough call for sure...good luck to you and your girlfriend!

[AdRock]

See, I have seen similar situations to those that you both describe and I am jealous. I have been with my fiance for two years and she has recently found Jesus. She is very zealous about it, worried about my salvation and our future. We just postponed the wedding and part of me is glad. She is so absorbed in the faith right now that it is pushing us apart. Some have told me everyone is like that at first with Christianity and eventually she will calm down. I am not so sure, it has been about eight months. She told me that she knows a love much deeper than I know because she is with God. That is how she loves me, with his love and hers, but she's not getting that in return. I am wrong for her because of this. I have been very civil about the whole thing, after all Christianity isn't teaching people to bite the heads off of babies, there are good things to embrace about it instead of fighting over our differences. Yet, it is so frustrating to hear that anytime I stand up for my belief system that it is not me talking but Satan. I think I am headed down a bad path right now and I don't know that we will ever get married. She just wants to postpone the ceremony so that we don't have the date looming over us during this period of reconstruction of our relationship. However, she is patiently waiting for me to see the "truth."

[JohNeo]

See, I have seen similar situations to those that you both describe and I am jealous. I have been with my fiance for two years and she has recently found Jesus. She is very zealous about it, worried about my salvation and our future. We just postponed the wedding and part of me is glad. She is so absorbed in the faith right now that it is pushing us apart. Some have told me everyone is like that at first with Christianity and eventually she will calm down. I am not so sure, it has been about eight months. She told me that she knows a love much deeper than I know because she is with God. That is how she loves me, with his love and hers, but she's not getting that in return. I am wrong for her because of this. I have been very civil about the whole thing, after all Christianity isn't teaching people to bite the heads off of babies, there are good things to embrace about it instead of fighting over our differences. Yet, it is so frustrating to hear that anytime I stand up for my belief system that it is not me talking but Satan. I think I am headed down a bad path right now and I don't know that we will ever get married. She just wants to postpone the ceremony so that we don't have the date looming over us during this period of reconstruction of our relationship. However, she is patiently waiting for me to see the "truth."

Adrock, I am sorry to hear about that. That sounds like it may be a deal-killer, but then again the fact that it's been such a short time since she was "born again" may be to your advantage. I don't know where it's referenced right off the top of my head, but I seem to recall that it's common for "born-againers" to come back to earth and return to atheism or secularism.

Don't give up. Maybe you might caution her that over-zealous fervour may be detrimental to her faith. Maybe you could also point out that the "unequally yoked" part in the Bible was probably written for the purpose of promoting Christianity, and NOT for the spiritual life of the person. :huh:

Good luck, all of you unequally yoked couples. :thumbs: I just thank the good lord god almighty for pairing me with a heathen girl :p .

[BadBadBad]

I'm in my early 20s and have been with my Christian girlfriend for over 3 years. During that time I've become keenly interested in existence and religion, however I've been a firm (and outspoken) agnostic for the last year or so. My girlfriend and I are very serious about our future together and we concede that religion is really the only sticking point in our relationship. We discuss it quite often and are both aware of each other's views, however my problem of late has been an increasing inability to respect her position as a Christian. My time on this site has only further entrenched this!

My dilemma is this: Is it worth persevering in a relationship when you are fundamentally at odds with regard to the meaning of life?

Is it the meaning of life that's important or life itself?

I am married to a fundy Christian. I was once in your shoes. She didn't attend church, or specifically practice a religion so as I could tell, and we never discussed religion. From my point of view, I didn't care about religion nor did I care what she thought about in the privacy of her own mind. I did care how she acted though, and at that time she acted just fine on religion. At some point, we talked about finances. I got a completely different picture there. Thirteen years later, that picture is the one I should have paid more attention to.

As to respecting her world views on things, I don't see that being terribly important. You may find it far more important as to her world view on balancing a checking account or cleaning house. Over the course of a marriage, you'll find plenty of issues where you don't respect your wife.

The question is not what she believes, the question is how she's going to act as a result? At the same time, how are you going to act? How are you going to both act when there's a conflict? In my case, I've found that the real issue is not finances, religion, family, or kids. The real issues we have are how we deal with each other, and those issues transcend and dominate all other issues. So, I'd say look at this issue over religion, and substitute issues on finance or family. Now, what impact does this have on life with this girl?

[HaysooChreesto!]

I've said it before but I'll say it again. My wife is an Xtian but she's not in your face save your soul type. At times in the past we had conflicts over the whole thing but as time has gone by it's become an almost total non-issue.

Work, bills, kids, and the every day aspects of marriage and family raising are all-consuming. The meaning of life? Shit, I have a leak in my pool that's going to cost me thousands of dollars that I don't have, but if I don't get it fixed the whole goddamned thing is going to buckle and cave in on itself.
This in addition to a major rook leak that's going to cost me a small bundle to have repaired day after tomorrow. I don't have the money for that either. So now my mortgage payment is going to be late and I'm behind on all my utilities again. Not to mention the $7500 in braces I owe for my two teenage daughters.

Life's deeper meanings? Frankly those are lost at the bottom of my leaky pool right now.

[jayh]

It's a tough call, no two couples are the same (and no one couple are the same people they will be in 5 or 10 years). The truth is, there are no guarantees in the marriage business and you've got to trust your gut instincts as well as rational analysis.

Obviously you have some reasons for not wanting to break up. As yourselves honestly and openly do you have reservations? What are these? How important is the other person to both of you? Are you able to let her have her faith, or will it bug you? She needs to ask the same question. If both of you are comfortable to honestly not be bothered by the others' belief system then maybe you can work around it. Good luck to you.

Religion is not a guarantee of incompatibility, non religion is not an assurance of compatibily. I am divorced from my atheist wife (though we remain close more like brother/sister) because we have very different goals in lifestyle and realized we both would be happier going separate ways.

[AdRock]

I've said it before but I'll say it again. My wife is an Xtian but she's not in your face save your soul type. At times in the past we had conflicts over the whole thing but as time has gone by it's become an almost total non-issue.

Work, bills, kids, and the every day aspects of marriage and family raising are all-consuming. The meaning of life? Shit, I have a leak in my pool that's going to cost me thousands of dollars that I don't have, but if I don't get it fixed the whole goddamned thing is going to buckle and cave in on itself.
This in addition to a major rook leak that's going to cost me a small bundle to have repaired day after tomorrow. I don't have the money for that either. So now my mortgage payment is going to be late and I'm behind on all my utilities again. Not to mention the $7500 in braces I owe for my two teenage daughters.

Life's deeper meanings? Frankly those are lost at the bottom of my leaky pool right now.

That is where I am at. I am with you, we've got plenty of everyday stuff to mill through, but since my fiance is a recent convert it is difficult. Her and her friends that do Bible study together seem to take the Bible literally. People ask me what denomination she is and I can't tell them, they really seem to be out there. If I showed her the quote above or if she and I were in a similar situation she would simply pray for the leak to be fixed or the roof to be repaired. If it happens (by chance) it was the Lord answering her prayer, if not he has another plan for us. It's difficult at best. When she speaks to me about her faith and asks me why I don't believe for the hundreth time--she tells me that Satan is speaking through me. Satan has a grip on me. I have close friends and family who are Christians and I get along with them swimingly but her study partners and her seem to be more out there. My fiance has wanted laser eye surgery so that she would not have to where glasses anymore forever, but now she is praying for healing because she doesn't need the surgery, God will heal her. I don't know that we have much of a future if I am Satan's puppet. Basically it comes down to the old, "I am rubber, you are glue everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

[BadBadBad]

That is where I am at. I am with you, we've got plenty of everyday stuff to mill through, but since my fiance is a recent convert it is difficult. Her and her friends that do Bible study together seem to take the Bible literally. People ask me what denomination she is and I can't tell them, they really seem to be out there. If I showed her the quote above or if she and I were in a similar situation she would simply pray for the leak to be fixed or the roof to be repaired. If it happens (by chance) it was the Lord answering her prayer, if not he has another plan for us. It's difficult at best. When she speaks to me about her faith and asks me why I don't believe for the hundreth time--she tells me that Satan is speaking through me. Satan has a grip on me. I have close friends and family who are Christians and I get along with them swimingly but her study partners and her seem to be more out there. My fiance has wanted laser eye surgery so that she would not have to where glasses anymore forever, but now she is praying for healing because she doesn't need the surgery, God will heal her. I don't know that we have much of a future if I am Satan's puppet. Basically it comes down to the old, "I am rubber, you are glue everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

I think you're answering your own question here. Now it's not the meaning of life, what you're seeing is what life will be, one big prayer meeting. Only is that the life you want to live?

[HaysooChreesto!]

That is where I am at. I am with you, we've got plenty of everyday stuff to mill through, but since my fiance is a recent convert it is difficult. Her and her friends that do Bible study together seem to take the Bible literally. People ask me what denomination she is and I can't tell them, they really seem to be out there. If I showed her the quote above or if she and I were in a similar situation she would simply pray for the leak to be fixed or the roof to be repaired. If it happens (by chance) it was the Lord answering her prayer, if not he has another plan for us. It's difficult at best. When she speaks to me about her faith and asks me why I don't believe for the hundreth time--she tells me that Satan is speaking through me. Satan has a grip on me. I have close friends and family who are Christians and I get along with them swimingly but her study partners and her seem to be more out there. My fiance has wanted laser eye surgery so that she would not have to where glasses anymore forever, but now she is praying for healing because she doesn't need the surgery, God will heal her. I don't know that we have much of a future if I am Satan's puppet. Basically it comes down to the old, "I am rubber, you are glue everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

Wow. Now that's tough. To me it sounds like she's involved in something potentially dangerous. Maybe you can try to steer her towards a different church.
Belief in the Bible in my opinion usually doesn't do most people any harm generally speaking. But when one eschews medical attention in the hopes that their god will fix them it becomes dangerous.
I'm not familiar enough with your situation to tell that you should do "X" but I wouldn't recommend having kids with someone who isn't willing to take their sick child to a doctor. I can say for certain that our youngest daughter, Samantha would not be alive today were it not for modern medicine. When I think back to the nights we had to rush to the ER or call the paramedics because she could barely breathe due to croup it still scares me. If we would have had faith that god would save her we would have buried her at the age of four. And if my wife would have not wanted me to call the paramedics I would have bowled her over on the way to the phone or to the car in order to get my daughter the help she needed.

Maybe you can point out the true dangers of her beliefs by using your hypothetical children. Many people are fine with taking the risk themselves but not with another life. Especially in the case of children.

And that Satan speaking through you thing is just weird. Sorry, I don't mean to be tactless but that's sixteenth century type stuff.

Best of luck.

[Atheos]

My essential dilemma is this: Is it worth persevering in a relationship when you are fundamentally at odds with regard to the meaning of life?
Welcome to the boards Quite Content. Every person and every relationship has its own dynamics, so there is no clear cut answer to this question. But I believe that on the whole every relationship must overcome some obstacles in order to persevere. Obviously there must be at least some point of agreement on something in order for a relationship to start, but without differences there remains little to discuss. The dynamic of discussing differences of thought, opinion or experience is the breath of a relationship. I certainly wouldn't toss out an otherwise viable relationship because of such a difference in opinion. The real question is, "on the whole are you happy together?"

-Atheos

[walt6]

AdRock stated
"She just wants to postpone the ceremony so that we don't have the date looming over us during this period of reconstruction of our relationship. However, she is patiently waiting for me to see the "truth." "

AdRock,
I think you hit it on the head. She is waiting for you to see the light, that is what the reconstruction of your relationship is about. Better run away. Lot's of fish in the sea.

Quite Content
First welcome. If after you and your GF have discussed all of the ramifications of your differences, then you need to decide what you are going to do. If you haven't done so, sit down and talk with her.

Sometimes we place more importance on what we are giving up then what we can potentially find, sort of a bird in hand, two in the bush. If you truly think religion will detract from your life, then why not go out there and find a nice agnostic or athiest girl?

[Nathan]

Wow. On my regular board this is one of the most common topics of discussion. I don't think there's a definate answer. Talking about it and hearing the experiences of others, though, can help you decide what you think is best for you.

I'm extremely lucky. I started dating the woman I would marry, then decided I would marry her and knew I needed to knock her out of her weak christianity (catholicism) and have her thinking for herself or I wouldn't be happy. Ironically, her catholic parents insisting we go to catholic wedding classes in order to be married in her family's church helped a lot. It got us talking about religion quite deeply, and it gave me ammunition for pointing out the horrible evil that is christianity. It was emotional and heated at times, but I don't think I could have married her if she hadn't come around. (I didn't tell her that for fear that she might just fake it or something). I couldn't bear the thought of my children being abused in such a cult or having to hear such awful things uttered mindlessly from the person I was to spend the rest of my life with.

In the end, my fiance came around and then became my wife and we've been super happy for a long time. We both agree that being "equally yoked" is best for us and that we'd each have a hard time with it being otherwise.

Of course, that is only what is important and works for us. We tend to be arguers and discussers of things, (for fun, enjoyably) and it's important to not have taboo topics or have one of our favorite topics (the evil that is religion) cause a rift every time we discussed it.

Another friend has a fundy wife and just keeps his head down and tries not to upset her. When she is reminded of his atheism, she goes off the deep end and screams and stuff. She has her kids praying at church to save their daddy from eternal torture (not joking, how sick is that?).

I couldn't handle that kind of life, nor watching my kids be made to suffer.

[SSbyG]

Here's my thoughts as a Christian on behalf of your Christian girlfriend. You aren't married as of yet. <edit> You're not on the same page on a very important matter that will affect your lives together and the lives of any future children. <edit>

[Quite Content]

Dear all,

Well first of all, thanks to everyone for replying. It's been a blast logging on and seeing all your comments. Also sorry for my absence, but the reason is quite a good one for the purposes of this thread. My girlfriend and I just went on a 7 day bushwalk in complete wilderness.

It was absolutely gorgeous - great weather, ocean, wildlife, the works. We took a tent and canned food and just set off. But typical me, the old issues started working away upstairs and I began wondering about the beauty of everything around me. As I've said, I'm agnostic; I am quite content (pardon that) to accept that the natural world is possibly the result of a higher power. Yet it started niggling away at me: Does she actually believe that these incredible surroundings are all in place purely for the purposes of us - humans - and our quest to be at peace with Jesus?

I should point out, briefly, that my girlfriend is not at all a fundamentalist Christian. Whilst she engages in dubious forms of Baptist Bible Studies, she has a keen intellect and responds to each proposition with integrity (bearing in mind, of course, that she is still a Christian...). To that end, the issues I raise (such as that above) are drawn from more basic Christian concepts. In essence I am talking about the very point that divides a committed Christian and a weak atheist/agnostic.

To continue ... After crossing a river, packs held above our heads and drenched from the waist down, I decided to raise the issue of Catholicism. You're right, perhaps a Seinfeld discussion would have been more in line, but we had about two hours of beach in front of us and my mind had been plagued by the thoughts just mentioned. Perhaps I was looking for a bit of an argument? Scenery can only interest you so much.

To condense the discussion: I remarked how impossible it was for me to understand how Catholics could believe that the Pope is infallible. She agreed. She then told me, however, that millions of people - many of whom are far smarter than me - believe in this doctrine. I accepted this, but commented that they shouldn't. When pushed, I argued that yes, on my understanding of the world those millions of people are misguided - damn it, wrong - and that I saw it as my duty to proclaim as much loudly, wherever I went, and whoever I met. As we continued our discussion, I became (I'm sure some of you would understand this) more militant in my atheist persona than even I would be comfortable with. In the end she told me that my views effectively formed a new religion, under my own definition of the latter - Unfounded, untested, and the only true answer to the meaning of life as we know it.

It was a cogent argument and made me wish I hadn't gone so hard.

Meanwhile the sun was setting and, in a delicious twist of irony, we'd missed a wonderful stretch of wilderness because we were so caught up in discussing what the point of it all was! The moral of this story:

If your girlfriend hasn't heard
That life is really quite absurd
Don't argue with her when you've gone bushwalking.

It'll only end in tears
And no doubt, in several years,
You'll regret missing the trees for all the talking.

Have a good week!
QC

[Docevil]

That is where I am at. I am with you, we've got plenty of everyday stuff to mill through, but since my fiance is a recent convert it is difficult. Her and her friends that do Bible study together seem to take the Bible literally. People ask me what denomination she is and I can't tell them, they really seem to be out there. If I showed her the quote above or if she and I were in a similar situation she would simply pray for the leak to be fixed or the roof to be repaired. If it happens (by chance) it was the Lord answering her prayer, if not he has another plan for us. It's difficult at best. When she speaks to me about her faith and asks me why I don't believe for the hundreth time--she tells me that Satan is speaking through me. Satan has a grip on me. I have close friends and family who are Christians and I get along with them swimingly but her study partners and her seem to be more out there. My fiance has wanted laser eye surgery so that she would not have to wear glasses anymore forever, but now she is praying for healing because she doesn't need the surgery, God will heal her. I don't know that we have much of a future if I am Satan's puppet. Basically it comes down to the old, "I am rubber, you are glue everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

I have to throw in with everyone else here, Ad. This looks like it goes a bit beyond born again and into (to put it bluntly) pure fantasy (yes, there is a (slight) difference). Most born agains that I was associated with as a fundie were at least practical minded-if they were sick, they'd take medicine, if the roof leaked, they'd fix it.

Unless she starts coming down to reality soon, you may need to walk away for your own sake.

[AdRock]

Like QC, I want to thank everyone for their input. It was also real interesting to go back and read the things that I have posted. In this time of soul searching I get a bit confused about it all. I love this woman and I got engaged to her. Yet, as I read what I have wrote it would seem that I am answering my own questions. However, I don't want to do anything rash. Postponing the wedding was rejection to me. If she truly wants a "man of God" than I guess I am out of here. Then again, I have invested a great deal into this relationship over the years and maybe that kind of thinking is rash. She did just find Jesus recently and maybe she just hasn't found a balance. Like many of the Christians I meet, she has her own interpretation of the word. She would claim otherwise but the fact is we live together. I don't think that is looked upon very nicely since we are not married, but she justifies it. The medice/doctor thing sounds good to her but she has battled a cold for weeks and has been taking over the counter stuff. Personally, and maybe I am as dilluted as her thinking I will see the light, I think she needed something to belong to and enjoy in life. When we met she was going to college and heavily involved in college theater. Since, she got a promotion at work and quit school because she wanted to help me finish school because we agreed that one of us should be a stay at home parent when we have children. I was closer to finishing school and she didn't really have an idea of where she was headed, her only passion was the theater. Now full time +, she is not involved in theater--it is just work and sleep. I think she is so enveloped by Christianity because there was a void in her. So, for now the postponed thing continues and we are going day to day--me hoping she will ease up and her hoping I will see the light.