Thomas Jefferson Quote

[RufusAtticus]

Does anybody know the history of this quote, attributed to Thomas Jefferson?

I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also.

[EverLastingGodStopper]

The origin is clearly some revisionist fantasy.

[LambdaCalculator]

It's taken so far out of context that it isn't funny. Buy the Jefferson Bible and find out just how badly butchered the context of that quote is.

[Worldtraveller]

I found this link (http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/cp-jefferson-letter/) that appears to have a copy of a handwritten letter by TJ. No sure how to verify this.

I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw.
So it appears part of the quote may be legitimate.

Of course, as usual, what the quote leaves out says volumes. The very next line:
They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.
So in essence TJ is saying that most of the xians of the time (I'm assuming he is referring to the organized religious denominations of the early/pre US) had bastardized the intent of Jesus teachings to such a point as to be nonensical, at best.

This site (http://www.strike-the-root.com/3/smith/smith10.html) has some good information, and better yet, links to historical documents.

The results of my google search (you'll have to wade through much xian propoganda, I'm sure) is here (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Thomas+jefferson&num=10&hl=en&c2coff=1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=I+am+a+real+Christian%2C+that+is+to+say%2C+a+disciple+of+the+doctrines+of+Jesus.+I+have+little+doubt+that+our+whole+country+will+soon+be+rallie d+to+the+unity+of+our+Creator+and%2C+I+hope%2C+to+the+pure+doctrine+of+Jesus+also.+&as_oq=quote+history+bogus+origin&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images).

Waiting for Buffman to weigh in on this one.... :)
Cheers,
Lane

[fromtheright]

Rufus, I'm curious as to the source of the quote. Is it a Bartonism?

I found THIS (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_thomson.html) site apparently giving the text of the letter.

[fromtheright]

BTW, I did a Google search on the full quote posted by Rufus and found several organizations that on quick perusal appear to have simply just copied the same "info" among themselves, including the inaccurate number of signers. I E-mailed several of them asking the source of the quote, knowing that none of them will be able to point me to it, and inviting them to check for themselves the number of DoI signers. It just makes me sick how many on my side of this issue care nothing about historical accuracy or doing a little of their own research.

[Toto]

The first sentence of the alleged quote is correct but out of context. Jefferson did admire Jesus as a supposedly humanistic leader. But the second sentence is very un-Jeffersonian. The idea that the whole country would "soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also" makes no sense in terms of the religious contention of the time.

If you google the last sentence, you will find web sites that claim that Jefferson wrote it in the front of his Bible - e.g Hal Lindsey (http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=1778) Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well-worn Bible:

[fromtheright]

Toto,

Yes, Lindsey's is one of the sites I visited and E-mailed asking the source. He can't answer it because the entire text of the article is found on several sites that I found, yet Lindsey lifts it without attribution (unless he is the source from which the several others copied it to begin with, but I have my doubts).

[fromtheright]

A list of the sites:

HERE (http://www.hymnsite.com/AmericanHistory.html)

HERE (http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/every.htm)

HERE (http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/forsakenroots.html)

HERE (http://www.eddoncorp.com/pictures/godblessamerica1.html)

HERE (http://www.eddoncorp.com/pictures/godblessamerica1.html)

HERE (http://www.eddoncorp.com/pictures/godblessamerica1.html)

HERE (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/nl259.htm)

It's amazing to me how shitty scholarship just metastasizes.

[Autonemesis]

Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well-worn Bible:

'Well-worn"? Do they mean the copy he had where he ripped most of the pages out, and pasted back in the few sentences he thought relevant and worthy?

That "well-worn" Bible? :D

[SLD]

It just makes me sick how many on my side of this issue care nothing about historical accuracy or doing a little of their own research.

Well FTR, my friend, maybe you should re-evaluate your side of this issue?

:huh:

BTW, there' s a new guy around here from Huntsville: Flint. Did you bring him aboard?

SLD

[fromtheright]

How are you, sir?

No, it doesn't make me re-evaluate my position but it sure gives me pause to consider many others on this side. Kind of like apologetics: the behavior of Christians doesn't make me doubt or affirm the existence of God, so the lack of integrity by many accommodationists doesn't make me doubt the correctness of the position or sway me toward the strict separationist standpoint. "They may be sons of bitches but [I'm afraid] they're my sons of bitches."

Does Flint frequent the CSS forum? I actually had lunch with keyser-soze, who used to be here (might still be, haven't seen him in a while), a year or so ago, here in Huntsville.

[Buffman]

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006656.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffbsyl.html

(Extract:Rush)
To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other.

(Extract:Short)
But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true and high light, as no impostor Himself, but a great Reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with Him in all His doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require counterpoise of good works to redeem it, etc., etc.

(End extracts)

(ADDED)

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefLett.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=237&division=div1

[Buffman]

BTW, I did a Google search on the full quote posted by Rufus and found several organizations that on quick perusal appear to have simply just copied the same "info" among themselves, including the inaccurate number of signers. I E-mailed several of them asking the source of the quote, knowing that none of them will be able to point me to it, and inviting them to check for themselves the number of DoI signers. It just makes me sick how many on my side of this issue care nothing about historical accuracy or doing a little of their own research.

I used to e-mail those sites providing them with carefully researched original attributions, or challenges to unattributed quotes, and suggesting that they make corrections accordingly. Only a handful were courteous enough to even answer, and even these merely indicated that when they had time they would look into it. Nothing changed. That is what helped to prompt my "Barton Automatons" thread several years ago....exposing my obvious frustrations with the radical "Christian" right and their propaganda machine (crusade).

[ftr: My guess would be that Barton missed counting John Hancock as one of the DoI signers. His signature was probably too large.) :D

[RufusAtticus]

Rufus, I'm curious as to the source of the quote. Is it a Bartonism?

Don't know.

It appeared in this "nice" op-ed in my local paper.

Forum: Remember the nation founded under God?

By James Robertson

Pluralism and multiculturalism are secular, anti-Christian beliefs and have no place in school curricula. A recent Newsweek poll found that 82 percent of Americans believe Jesus Christ was the son of God. In John 14:6, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father except by me." That is what all true Christians believe and what our founding fathers believed.

I was appalled by a recent Cedar Shoals High School graduate who, in a recent letter to the editor, noted "the values of secular statehood, which are essential to a peaceful, tolerant, modern democratic society." This comes directly out of the creed of secular humanism and is totally contrary to the values that have made this republic a great nation. Tim LaHaye, in his book "The Battle of the Mind," wrote, "In this world there are two basic lines of reasoning that determine the morals, values, life-style and activities of mankind - the wisdom of man or the wisdom of God. Regarding man's wisdom, in all of recorded history neither Secular Humanism (socialism and atheism) with its pantheistic religions nor atheistic Marxism/Leninism (communism) has produced anything but tyranny, misery, and enslavement."

The wisdom of God, based on creation, teaches the primacy of the spirit and the worth and dignity of the individual. Christ lifted up every man as a special creation made "in the image of God."

Contrary to the belief of revisionists, 52 of the 55 signers of the Declaration of Independence were orthodox, deeply committed Christians. Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his Bible: "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also." In 1782, the United States Congress voted in favor of this resolution: "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools."

John W. Chalfant, in his book "America - A Call to Greatness," wrote, "No great nation has risen because of evolutionists; no great moral codes have been written because of them; no light of freedom has been ignited because of them. Their tradition is that of misery, slavery and death."

The editors of the Athens Banner-Herald fretted in a Dec. 17 editorial that Christians should not "lobby for increased freedom of Christian expression in schools." I agree. On the contrary, Christians should lobby for the restoration of the Christian freedoms which have disappeared since the founders began this nation under God. The proper place for prayer is in Congress, in the schools, in homes and in churches.

Robertson is a retired U.S. Department of Agriculture research leader.