nudity(some pictures may not be work-safe)

[Shven]

Not sure if this is more suited to GRD but since it has a particular relevence to some neo-pagan paths and practitioners I'll start it here.

I put it to the board, what is your opinion of nudity, in a religious and non religious sense - for instance, would your opinion on naked ritual differ from your opinion on nudist beaches and the like? Is there something wrong or strange about nudity? And do you think it is something that is inseperable from ideas such as sex or lust?

Shven

[Sturmrabe]

I always run around half naked in the summer, but thats mostly because I feel like I'm going to die... I doubt the Norse Gods really give a damn, but thats just me

[Karalora]

Clothing (or nudity) has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with practicality.

[premjan]

I believe when "civilization" first caught up with stone age hunter gatherers in the Andaman Islands one of the causes of mortality was the externally imposed clothing. The people using it never used to wash it or take it off until it ripped and fell off, hence they used to fall prey to various diseases.

[whichphilosophy]

Not sure if this is more suited to GRD but since it has a particular relevence to some neo-pagan paths and practitioners I'll start it here.

I put it to the board, what is your opinion of nudity, in a religious and non religious sense - for instance, would your opinion on naked ritual differ from your opinion on nudist beaches and the like? Is there something wrong or strange about nudity? And do you think it is something that is inseperable from ideas such as sex or lust?

Shven

To early Man nudity was not a issue if they were in warm climates and wore no clothings. Or did we get conscious after our fur started to drop off.

[whichphilosophy]

Not sure if this is more suited to GRD but since it has a particular relevence to some neo-pagan paths and practitioners I'll start it here.

I put it to the board, what is your opinion of nudity, in a religious and non religious sense - for instance, would your opinion on naked ritual differ from your opinion on nudist beaches and the like? Is there something wrong or strange about nudity? And do you think it is something that is inseperable from ideas such as sex or lust?

Shven

To early Man nudity was not a issue if they were in warm climates and wore no clothings. Or did we get conscious of this after our fur started to drop off.

[epepke]

I'm a radical nudist. I even take showers nude.

But who cares, anyway? It's just flab.

I always liked the Star Trek episode where Majel Barett showed up to her wedding nude.

And I think that at least the Summer Olympics should be done nude. There might be some practical problems for the Winter Olympics. But then again, it might restore some actual athleticism to the events.

[premjan]

But then again, it might restore some actual athleticism to the events.
The Winter Olympics is not athletic? :confused:

[epepke]

The Winter Olympics is not athletic? :confused:

I dunno. I could never get particularly excited about strapping things to your feet, sliding down a mountain, and shooting at things.

Nude might be more interesting, because if you fell over, it would be big trouble. Also those hot spent rifle casings might pose a problem.

But seriously, except for skating, the Winter Olympics always seem to me more like a demo reel for a theme park.

Now, a nude Iditarod, that would be something.

[premjan]

But seriously, except for skating, the Winter Olympics always seem to me more like a demo reel for a theme park.


I believe people reach higher speeds in the Winter Olympics though. Probably substantially higher on average.

Course the Greeks used to compete naked, but they also AFAIK excluded women.

[DougP]

As far I am concerned, nudity is completely seperate from sex. Wayyy different. I dont think it matters if it is in a religious sense or not.

-Doug

[MonCapitan2002]

While I will never allow myself to be seen in any state of undress, I have no problem with nudity in general. I happen to be of the opinion that Americans in general are far too uptight about nudity and sex (even though they aren't one and the same and often seperate). In my opinion I happen to think we as a society would be better off if we practiced some form of social nudity. In many ways, it would demystify the human body for many people.

I also happen to think that if you are very attractive physically, you might as well flaunt it while you can. Although that particular issue is better suited for another topic. As for me, I would happily go through without ever being seen nude. Since nudity can be a requirement for a physical, I would rather play Russian Roulette with my health. That is how paranoid I am about showing skin.

[radagast]

I'm for it.

[French Prometheus]

Course the Greeks used to compete naked, but they also AFAIK excluded women.
Only married women weren't allowed to watch the games. Greek women had their own games (the Heraean Games) but they wore short dresses during the competitions.

Greek male athletes were rarely completely naked, they usually wore a kynodesme (a kind of thong) around their foreskins.

[Nice Squirrel]

I would actually watch the Olympics (TM) if they were done nude. I mean these are some of the finest examples of human flesh.. why not see them.

Yeah, yeah I know they would be plastered with advertising and some fundamentalist preacher would be up in arms because his niece caught him wanking to men's gymnastics.

But I still would watch

[Corwin]

I would actually watch the Olympics (TM) if they were done nude. I mean these are some of the finest examples of human flesh.. why not see them.

Yeah, yeah I know they would be plastered with advertising and some fundamentalist preacher would be up in arms because his niece caught him wanking to men's gymnastics.

But I still would watch

...or his nephew. :rolleyes:

Still.... a lot of the women in the Olympics are.... how should I put this delicately.... so TOTALLY not my type? Not so sure that would make me any more likely to watch.

[premjan]

fascinating, why not just a loin cloth?

[Shven]

So it would appear my topic is off. Miscellaneous discussions here we come...

[epepke]

I would actually watch the Olympics (TM) if they were done nude. I mean these are some of the finest examples of human flesh.. why not see them.

Yeah, yeah I know they would be plastered with advertising and some fundamentalist preacher would be up in arms because his niece caught him wanking to men's gymnastics.

But I still would watch

To be serious for a while, I quite agree. The Olympics should be a celebration of what the human body can accomplish. That's what it should be about: bodies doing things. Minimal equipment, no steroids, no special stuff to make the body more slippery, as in swimming, no bouncy hi-tech shoes. As it is, it's as much a celebration of technology and being a cyborg as it is about humans.

To be somewhat flippant, I think that a running naked man exhibits as much or more ridiculous floppage as a running naked woman, so I don't see any reason to avoid having women be naked, too. Of course, I think you'd probably want to wipe down the exercise horse with alcohol between uses.

[epepke]

I believe people reach higher speeds in the Winter Olympics though. Probably substantially higher on average.

You haven't been on The Hulk, then.

[premjan]

You haven't been on The Hulk, then.
Never heard of that (other than the comic strip).

[epepke]

Never heard of that (other than the comic strip).

You'll have to visit Orlando, then.

[premjan]

You'll have to visit Orlando, then.
Oh a (Disneyworld?) roller coaster? fine. even less athletic I imagine. and probably more convenient.

[fast]

Not sure if this is more suited to GRD but since it has a particular relevence to some neo-pagan paths and practitioners I'll start it here.

I put it to the board, what is your opinion of nudity, in a religious and non religious sense - for instance, would your opinion on naked ritual differ from your opinion on nudist beaches and the like? Is there something wrong or strange about nudity? And do you think it is something that is inseperable from ideas such as sex or lust?

Shven

I don't have what you might call a problem with nudity; I just don't understand the insatiable desire to have nude beaches, for example.

We live in a society where clothing is um required--could that be the reason. Of course living in such a society, does have me taking a second and third and forth look when I glimse a nude body.

Heck, the name of the thread is why I'm here!

no pictures, though, sad!; actually second thought; probably a good thing-no pictures that is!

[brighid]

I do not have a problem with the nude body. I know that neo-paganism has not prohibition against nudity, nor does it demonize sex or the human body as does the Abrahamic religions. Naked and "sex" rituals are completely acceptable in neo-pagan religions and from what i know of some ancient pagan rituals nudity and sex weren't taboo as they are today.

Now, that does not mean I am personally comfortable walking around nude or being around other people who are nude. And I certainly wouldn't want to perform certain athletic endeavors in the nude - breezes in certain places and the "flopping" someone else mentioned. I have a hard enough time finding adequate sports bras to keep me pain-free during certain activities! YIKES. There is also a body secretion/sanitation aspect that would not want me to be placing my naked bits somewhere someone else just sat his/her naked bits. Sharing of bodily fluids should be a voluntarily thing and one frowned upon amongst strangers.

B

[Agemegos]

I put it to the board, what is your opinion of nudity

I'm fine with it.

would your opinion on naked ritual differ from your opinion on nudist beaches and the like?

Yes. I dislike religious ritual, and would be no happier with it if the participants were nude.

Is there something wrong or strange about nudity?

No, how could there be? We're all naked under our clothes.

And do you think it is something that is inseperable from ideas such as sex or lust?

No.

[premjan]

You haven't been on The Hulk, then.
Apparently skiing uses a little less energy than singles tennis, but not all that much: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/misc/exercise.phtml

[French Prometheus]

fascinating, why not just a loin cloth?
According to Greek (mythological?) history, athletes used to wear loincloths in the oldest version of the games. But one day, the loincloth of an athlete slipped down while he was running and he found himself naked. His motions being no longer impeded by cothes, he ran faster and won the race. Thenforth, Greek athletes competed (almost) completely naked.

The reason for the kynodesme is that the public exposure of one's bare glans was considered both inappropriate and uneasthetic in Ancient Greece. Hellenized Jews who went to the gymnasium tried to hide their circumcision so as not to appear too barbarous to their Greek counterparts.

[French Prometheus]

I would actually watch the Olympics (TM) if they were done nude. I mean these are some of the finest examples of human flesh.. why not see them.

Yeah, yeah I know they would be plastered with advertising and some fundamentalist preacher would be up in arms because his niece caught him wanking to men's gymnastics.

But I still would watch

A group of European historians recently tried to re-enact the ancient Olympic Games with real athletes (from all over Europe). We could watch it on the French-German channel ARTE. The athletes had to live like ancient Greeks for two weeks. It was apparently very hard for them : eating while lying on a bed, running barefoot, scraping the oil off their body after training (no soap of course), using ancient techniques that are no longer used nowadays like throwing a javelin with a thong coiled around it,... They weren't completely naked but wore some kind of g-sting loincloth.

Two events were deemed too dangerous for modern athletes to really compete in : pankration and pugilato.

[Shven]

Yes. I dislike religious ritual, and would be no happier with it if the participants were nude.
I meant your opinion on the nudity aspect. Do you see that aspect as different to 'secular' nudity?

[Shven]

I don't have what you might call a problem with nudity; I just don't understand the insatiable desire to have nude beaches, for example.
Well, I would say that there are some positive things about nudity. It is a great equalizer for a start (unless of course you cant separate nudity from sex - but thats a different issue). Its a great ice-breaker too. Also on a beach it means you can get an all-over tan.

We live in a society where clothing is um required--could that be the reason. Of course living in such a society, does have me taking a second and third and forth look when I glimse a nude body.
thats the interesting thing; I dont. Group nudity has totally destroyed any fascination with nudity - which I think is very healthy.

Heck, the name of the thread is why I'm here!
Yes, I was expecting some people to click it just because of the name ;) well done for admitting it anyway.

Shven

[4th Generation Atheist]

<>....There is also a body secretion/sanitation aspect that would not want me to be placing my naked bits somewhere someone else just sat his/her naked bits. Sharing of bodily fluids should be a voluntarily thing and one frowned upon amongst strangers.

BSharing of fungi would ideally be voluntary also, but it rarely is. Think of walking barefoot on the locker room floor....and then you see the utility of bringing a towel to sit on in any group-nudity situations.

I have two main objections to going unclothed, and both depend on the weather: 1) cold and 2) sunburn. Nature didn't give me much natural sun protection, especially in certain bodily areas....areas also likely to find a strong sunblock a bit irritating. So I'd likely decline even if given the option.

Sex/lust? (It would be nice if everyone looked as good naked as they think they do...from what I've seen in the past, this isn't often the case. Usually sex/lust is thus not an issue). Don't forget how much such things are culturally determined...in U.S. culture, a woman is lust-inducing in a well-chosen string bikini; in some other parts of the world, if she shows her ankles.

Nudity obviously has no religious implications for me, as I lack a religion. I suppose if I were a practicing Gardnerian Wiccan it might have significant religious overtones. But I'm not, so I wouldn't know.

[Shven]

Sharing of fungi would ideally be voluntary also, but it rarely is. Think of walking barefoot on the locker room floor....and then you see the utility of bringing a towel to sit on in any group-nudity situations.
A sensible practicality. I also know people in the habit of putting their shoes back on for outside nudity.

I have two main objections to going unclothed, and both depend on the weather: 1) cold and 2) sunburn. Nature didn't give me much natural sun protection, especially in certain bodily areas....areas also likely to find a strong sunblock a bit irritating. So I'd likely decline even if given the option.
Would you decline it on a warm but overcast day? or for, say, a sauna?

Sex/lust? (It would be nice if everyone looked as good naked as they think they do...from what I've seen in the past, this isn't often the case. Usually sex/lust is thus not an issue). Don't forget how much such things are culturally determined...in U.S. culture, a woman is lust-inducing in a well-chosen string bikini; in some other parts of the world, if she shows her ankles.
A very good point

[fast]

thats the interesting thing; I dont. Group nudity has totally destroyed any fascination with nudity - which I think is very healthy.

I guess in many ways it can be healthy, but is it worth it? I mean with all the people out there with an unhealthy fantasy life and all. I mean, couldn't this exposure carry them over the edge. Couldn't unclothed people (especially children) be just one step closer to bridging the gap between a desire to act immorally and actually doing it?

It's interesting that you said "destroyed any fascination". In some ways, that could be a good thing, but the ongoing fascination isn't something I'd like to rid myself of. Afterall, sometimes the chase can be as fun as the prize! this could be misinterpreted, so let me ellaborate: I'm having a hard time coming up with an example, but if you don't take it negatively, it should suffice.

[4th Generation Atheist]

A sensible practicality. I also know people in the habit of putting their shoes back on for outside nudity.


Would you decline it on a warm but overcast day? or for, say, a sauna?Probably not for a sauna (though as stated I'd probably sit on a towel). Outdoors, though, even on an overcast day, I might be risking a burn. My skin is that bad.

I've few "embarassment" issues though (not even the big classic one), having had plenty of opportunity to see how bad other people can look. And I've no special "moral" issue.

[Agemegos]

I meant your opinion on the nudity aspect. Do you see that aspect as different to 'secular' nudity?

It isn't significantly different to me, but it might be different to the ritualists, I suppose.

[Shven]

I guess in many ways it can be healthy, but is it worth it? I mean with all the people out there with an unhealthy fantasy life and all. I mean, couldn't this exposure carry them over the edge. Couldn't unclothed people (especially children) be just one step closer to bridging the gap between a desire to act immorally and actually doing it?
I never said anything about children - thats a totally different issue. I dont see the point of digressing into that here but suffice to say most neo-pagan groups wouldn't do naked ritual with minors involved.

It's interesting that you said "destroyed any fascination". In some ways, that could be a good thing, but the ongoing fascination isn't something I'd like to rid myself of. Afterall, sometimes the chase can be as fun as the prize! this could be misinterpreted, so let me ellaborate: I'm having a hard time coming up with an example, but if you don't take it negatively, it should suffice.
Oh it didn't destroy my fascination with sex and the chase ;) - just separated it from nudity

[Shven]

Probably not for a sauna (though as stated I'd probably sit on a towel). Outdoors, though, even on an overcast day, I might be risking a burn. My skin is that bad.

I've few "embarassment" issues though (not even the big classic one), having had plenty of opportunity to see how bad other people can look. And I've no special "moral" issue.
Thats cool - just curious.

[premjan]

The reason for the kynodesme is that the public exposure of one's bare glans was considered both inappropriate and uneasthetic in Ancient Greece. Hellenized Jews who went to the gymnasium tried to hide their circumcision so as not to appear too barbarous to their Greek counterparts.
I am pretty sure that there are some New Guinea tribes which wear a glans sheath (some of them are pretty fierce-looking and amazingly long -- the sheath that is). The purpose in the Greek case might have been to take the sexual edge off (wouldn't want the athletes to be buggering each other uncontrollably).

[French Prometheus]

I am pretty sure that there are some New Guinea tribes which wear a glans sheath (some of them are pretty fierce-looking and amazingly long -- the sheath that is).
Yep. There are also tribes in Amazonia who still wear penile sheaths.


The purpose in the Greek case might have been to take the sexual edge off (wouldn't want the athletes to be buggering each other uncontrollably).
The main reason for the kynodesme is well know : to avoid accidental exposure of the athlete's glans while he was wrestling/running in public. That would have been very embarrassing for the athlete concerned.

I don't think that wearing a kynodesme has any incidence on libido and since it's fairly easy to take off, it wouldn't have been useful to prevent sex.

In the Roman empire, slaves were often infibulated to stop them from having sex (and knocking up the master's wife or daughter). Two holes were cut into the slave's foreskin and then a large ring was inserted through the holes. Erection was painful and intercourse was impossible (except when a rich woman paid a blacksmith to remove her slave's ring temporarily...).

[MonCapitan2002]

That sounds agonisingly painful. I am glad I was not born a slave in Roman times.

[premjan]

New Guineahttp://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/pgourd2b.jpg
kynodesme (I believe it does not impede sex)http://www.addicks3.fsnet.co.uk/nat/nudelife/kynod/kynodh3t.jpg
I believe in addition to Amazonia, there are tribes in the Nile region which also use them. The two main reasons would be: 1) too hot in the meditteranean or tropics or while performing sports (at least in summer) to wear clothing, and 2) need to keep the penis from bobbing up and down.

[French Prometheus]

kynodesme (I believe it does not impede sex)
Actually, the man in the erotic scene you posted isn't wearing a kynodesme.
Here's what that thing looks like (some of the pics are big and I don't know how to resize them so I just give the links) :
http://www.cirp.org/library/history/hodges2/hodges23.jpg
http://www.cirp.org/library/history/hodges2/hodges16.jpg
http://www.cirp.org/library/history/hodges2/hodges15.jpg
http://www.cirp.org/library/history/hodges2/hodges25.jpg

[DougP]

While the pictures posted are not against forum policy as porn, I did decided to make a note in the thread title that they may not be safe for people viewing at work. Feel free to continue post pictures of that nature as they pertain to the thread though.

-Doug

[badger3k]

Not sure if this is more suited to GRD but since it has a particular relevence to some neo-pagan paths and practitioners I'll start it here.

I put it to the board, what is your opinion of nudity, in a religious and non religious sense - for instance, would your opinion on naked ritual differ from your opinion on nudist beaches and the like? Is there something wrong or strange about nudity? And do you think it is something that is inseperable from ideas such as sex or lust?

Shven

Nudity. Who cares? I may not be thrilled looking at most Americans (the whole fat thing), in the case of a beach or a ritual, that's not the idea. If someone is relaxed enough to buck our societies strange mores, more power to them. Nudity is connected to sex (and lust, desire, and what have you), mainly because we are brought up that way. While there are natural responses to attractive people (however we define that), that's also natural and nothing to be ashamed of either - it's all in how we are raised and conditioned to think. People are born naked, so to me there is nothing wrong with it?

As for the ritual context, I have no problems with the idea, although as I have not attended anything like it, I may be uncomfortable at first in that situation (simply because it is new). I don't know. As I have not gone to a nude beach either, I can't say my reactions there either. While it might take a bit to get used to (mainly physically :)), intellectually I have no problems with it.

Missed one: Nudity only seems strange because that is how we are brought up - if we were taught that being naked is ok and not something that only seems to lead to sex, then maybe there would be less of a hangup with it. Weather and such makes nudity impractical for daily living, but we can certainly make strides eliminating the "naked = unnatural or bad/sinful" idea.

[Agemegos]

That sounds agonisingly painful. I am glad I was not born a slave in Roman times.

Just by the way, born slaves were a rareity in Roman times. Most slaves were 'captured from the wild' so to speak. They were amazingly cheap, too.

[badger3k]

I guess in many ways it can be healthy, but is it worth it? I mean with all the people out there with an unhealthy fantasy life and all. I mean, couldn't this exposure carry them over the edge. Couldn't unclothed people (especially children) be just one step closer to bridging the gap between a desire to act immorally and actually doing it?

It's interesting that you said "destroyed any fascination". In some ways, that could be a good thing, but the ongoing fascination isn't something I'd like to rid myself of. Afterall, sometimes the chase can be as fun as the prize! this could be misinterpreted, so let me ellaborate: I'm having a hard time coming up with an example, but if you don't take it negatively, it should suffice.

I always found a clothed woman to be more of a fascination than a naked one (unless it involved sex, but that's a different story).

I think any correlation between the "unhealthy fantasy life" is precisely the point. If people were raised that nudity was natural and not unhealthy, I don't think you would see such things develop. Most of the sex offenders and people with problems that I am aware of tend to be quite repressed. And some people will do their "thing" no matter what the conditions are. To me, if you are raised where nudity is wrong, unnatural, or shameful somehow, you'll be more inclined to consider it only in a sexual context (if at all, that is). Similarly, I had an ex who was disgusted with oral sex because of how she was raised. :huh:

To me, it relates to massage. To some people, a massage is just a massage, to others it's an invitation or offer for sex (even just a backrub can be seen as such). Should we shun massage as bad because of the actions or misinterpretations of a few? (I use this because I am thinking of an older Friends show where people thought the massage was a prostitution thing, IIRC).

Does that make sense?

[fortytwo]

A good friend of mine invited me to spend time at a local nudist colony.
I didn't go.
Not that I wouldn't get over the intitial awkward feel of it. I'm just not sure I could trust myself to be cool about it. What if I got turned on, or giggled like a schoolgirl, gawked, or something?
Also, no clothing = vulnerability. Can't picture exposing myself to the usual hazards such as, cigarettes, bugs, bumping into things. Clothing minimizes a scrape, or a sting.
Nudity at home is cool, just don't cook that way. ;)

Originally Posted by Badger3k
Most of the sex offenders and people with problems that I am aware of tend to be quite repressed.
I would tend to agree w/that.

[epepke]

I am pretty sure that there are some New Guinea tribes which wear a glans sheath (some of them are pretty fierce-looking and amazingly long -- the sheath that is).

It pays to advertise.

[epepke]

A good friend of mine invited me to spend time at a local nudist colony.
I didn't go.
Not that I wouldn't get over the intitial awkward feel of it. I'm just not sure I could trust myself to be cool about it. What if I got turned on, or giggled like a schoolgirl, gawked, or something?

I've been to a fair number of nude sunbathing places, including mixed gay/straight ones with bars.

The atmosphere is quite relaxed. In fact, one of the things that you learn from nude beaches etc. is that nudity isn't inherently erotic. It's clothing that makes nudity erotic.

[badger3k]

I've been to a fair number of nude sunbathing places, including mixed gay/straight ones with bars.

The atmosphere is quite relaxed. In fact, one of the things that you learn from nude beaches etc. is that nudity isn't inherently erotic. It's clothing that makes nudity erotic.

Did you always have that relaxed feeling, or was it something that you developed through exposure? I've wanted to go, if nothing else than to really learn through experience that nudity is natural and that it alone is not erotic (although with the right individual and situation...)

[epepke]

Did you always have that relaxed feeling, or was it something that you developed through exposure? I've wanted to go, if nothing else than to really learn through experience that nudity is natural and that it alone is not erotic (although with the right individual and situation...)

I'm not sure what the question is. I don't think that I always had the relaxed feeling before I had ever been to a nude sunbathing area; I was just as wound up about nudity as most people in the culture, I guess. But once my clothes were off, and everybody else was nude, it was basically instantaneous. I can't remember any transition period, even though I was suffering from rather severe shyness at that point.

I think it's because, once the clothes are off, there's nothing else to reveal. That's basically it. It's done.

[badger3k]

I'm not sure what the question is. I don't think that I always had the relaxed feeling before I had ever been to a nude sunbathing area; I was just as wound up about nudity as most people in the culture, I guess. But once my clothes were off, and everybody else was nude, it was basically instantaneous. I can't remember any transition period, even though I was suffering from rather severe shyness at that point.

I think it's because, once the clothes are off, there's nothing else to reveal. That's basically it. It's done.

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but you answered what I meant to ask. The transition or learning period was what I was asking about. Appreciate the reply.