How can you NOT think about suicide daily?

[shome42]

Theists love to say to atheists things like: Well if you don't believe in god, and there's no heaven/hell, and this life is all you have, then why not just kill yourself?

While that's a simplistic take on atheism and a secular view on life, yet the theist does have a point. Aside from things we find pleasurable, what reason do we have to stick around on this earth? Once you're dead, you're dead. Even if you've helped millions of people, they'll all be dead too. So who really cares what you do here or how long you're here?

Personally, I think about suicide on almost a daily basis. But it's not like you're thinking. It's not a "listen to sad music, I'm so depressed and desperate, I'd like to die" type of thinking; it's more philosphical musing.

Certainly when I'm experiencing pleasure or looking forward to it, suicide is the farthest thing from my mind. And even when I'm in the midst of pain, suicide is often far from my mind because I'm so concentrated on removing the pain. But it's those moments of nothingness, those moments where I'm just bored, where there's no exigency, no real emotion one way or another...it's those times when I think to myself, why the hell do I even stick around here?

It seems like my life post-Christianity is defined by the question of whether or not I should kill myself, and at the risk of sounding sophomoric, I'll quote Camus, who echoes the sentiment:

"There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. Deciding whether or not life is worth living is to answer the fundamental question in philosophy. All other questions follow from that."

I find, in a secular lifestyle context, that every other question does flow from that. Should I have children? Right now I'm extremely uncomfortable with the idea of bringing kids into this world, yes, this very world which I question daily if it's worth living in.

Kids, marriage, career, etc...what the hell does any of it matter if I can't even decide whether I should live or not?

:huh:

[Gawdawful]

Theists love to say to atheists things like: Well if you don't believe in god, and there's no heaven/hell, and this life is all you have, then why not just kill yourself?This is sufficient reason not to: "this life is all you have". If this one life is all you get, why would one want to end all that there is? Why not make the most of it?

I've gone through a couple of suicidal periods myself. Prior to the first episode, I couldn't even understand how anyone could ever think of killing themselves, the thought had never ever entered my mind. Then when I was severely depressed, I started having these thoughts pop into my head, thoughts of killing myself, uncontrollable thoughts. These thoughts were not consciously reasoned out or directed thoughts, they were more like impulses. If you are experience these sort of thoughts, there are medications that can help. Zoloft probably saved my life.

If your thoughts are on a more philosophical nature, directed consciously, then by all means, mull it over. I think if you weigh the pros and cons you'll decide life is worth living, if for no other reason, than to experience everything you possibly can in the one life you get. If it's all you get, you might as well enjoy it.

[Mallow o' the Marsh]

Theists love to say to atheists things like: Well if you don't believe in god, and there's no heaven/hell, and this life is all you have, then why not just kill yourself?


Yes, this life is all you have, so wouldn't this make atheists more inclined to want to stay alive than theists who might believe theyre going to paradise? That's sure how it works with me...

The funny thing is is that I can see the theist's point of view on this, at least somewhat.

[Jakanapes]

Theists love to say to atheists things like: Well if you don't believe in god, and there's no heaven/hell, and this life is all you have, then why not just kill yourself?


See, I don't even understand the question. I can honestly say that I've never thought about suicide. I fully support suicide rights and can even understand why someone would prefer oblivion to a really horribly painful life, but I've never had that experience.

To me, the above question is like, if you're really hungry and this steak is all you have to eat, then why not just throw it away. Wha??? It makes no sense!

To me, it would make more sense to ask the question: If you believe in a loving god who forgives everything and provides an afterlife where there is no suffering but only endless happiness, then why not kill yourself, or simply allow yourself to die more quickly (to get around the 'no suicide' clause) in order to get there?


I mean, honestly, if this life is all I get, then why would suicide even be an option??? does not compute! Maybe this is a difference between people who have been atheists all their life (me) and those who have deconverted (OP)....

[Plognark]

Oh, I don't know, the thought that perhaps the work and interactions I undertake in my life can have at least slight, subtle influences throughout the rest of our species existence, and maybe longer....that's kind of neat, I think.

Yeah, I know, sounds like some chaos theory mumbo jumbo, but it works for me. :)

Of course, I do think about suicide every day, but that has everything to do with my mental state and leftover childhood baggage, and very little if anything to do with my atheism.

[GermanHeretic]

The problem with suicide is, it has no undo-button.
You can change your philosophical and religious views incl. your assessment of life's worthness as often as your pants, but you cannot change back to life once you're dead. Therefore it is better to do the best with your life as long as you have it.

[Alter]

Suicide is the Nihilist alternative. Not all Atheists are Nihilists.

Personally, I do everything I can (within the confines of my life and my obligations) to live longer and to make more of a mark on the world.

[MonCapitan2002]

I don't ever consider suicide. I consider killing myself to be a complete waste of a perfectly doog life. Even though I have little to live for, I am currently trying to change that situation. In my opinion the effort alone to change my situation makes life somewhat worthwhile. Even if I don't succeed, I can at least say that I tried.

There are people in this world that I would like to get to know. If I end my life, I will never get to know them.

[Viti]

I mean, honestly, if this life is all I get, then why would suicide even be an option??? does not compute! Maybe this is a difference between people who have been atheists all their life (me) and those who have deconverted

No, I deconverted and I feel as you do. I wasn't religious for very long, though.

Shome, why not give Existentialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism) a look see now that you seem to have Nihilism down pat. It makes much more sense to me.

You might also read this II thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=111434) and this thread at another forum (http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1458)

[freemonkey]

Personally, I think about suicide on almost a daily basis. But it's not like you're thinking. It's not a "listen to sad music, I'm so depressed and desperate, I'd like to die" type of thinking; it's more philosphical musing.

Certainly when I'm experiencing pleasure or looking forward to it, suicide is the farthest thing from my mind. And even when I'm in the midst of pain, suicide is often far from my mind because I'm so concentrated on removing the pain. But it's those moments of nothingness, those moments where I'm just bored, where there's no exigency, no real emotion one way or another...it's those times when I think to myself, why the hell do I even stick around here?
I understand what you're saying. Personally, I'm not ready to die, and I'm not about to start believing in a warm and fuzzy afterlife. But I do ponder the questions, "what's it all about?", "why bother?" and "does it really matter at all?". IMO, its a very hard thing to think about, and maybe that's why so many people protect themselves with beliefs in heaven.

I guess the logical conclusion is that its up to us as individuals to make our lives matter, its just not always easy getting there.

[lpetrich]

My thoughts have occasionally drifted in that direction, but I then think of all that I'll miss seeing and experiencing if I commit suicide.

[Phishfood]

theists are the one's thinking they'll get swooped up into heaven. i'd imagine they wouldn't want to delay the inevitable.

this is the only life i have. i dont want to die.

-Pf

[Hubble head]

I'd reply "Then how could I go on enlighting xians like you to the freedom and joys of basic reality, if I was gone?"

I can't help but notice more than one thread getting down on the idea of life without gawds and it almost makes me want slap them. I would never slap anyone but com'mon people.

My new neighbor reeled back in shock and disbelief when he forced religion into our first conversation. After asking me about mine I told him it was all bunk.
His first question was "And you're OK with that!!?" (I smiled and said "absolutely") followed by his incredulous tone "And what about after this life?!?!". I said "You gotta live it now." and the conversation basically ended. What a fucktard. But I still feel the need to be nice to him.

Life is often a pain. It's difficult to contemplate things like the actual known and unknown realities of our world. We have the capability for great, intense feelings of happiness or sorrow. Focus on one and that's what you'll get. The world sucks. The masses really aren't much different than they were back in the days of fuedal lords. So easily fooled and trusting of those who wish to control them to not benefit themselves. But big deal. Move around it.

Be happy you're not one of the zombies fooled into living a lifestyle without life, based on fake rewards that can never be cashed in. Thinking of all the happiness I can approach that they can't approach without guilt makes me smile.

Be happy that you try and live it all and make your own decisions for yourself.

Be happy you can see the masses manipulated by religious and Govt leaders and say to yourself "I'm not falling for that" and go about your day.

Be happy that you know the only way you'll succeed is through your own hard work, not the luck of some god granting you success in work and life because you think you've been good.

Be happy you know that we don't know, and you can look to people working on new answers about our world and society, not the old re-recycled ones dreamed up by clever men wanting to control the masses for thier own profit and power thousands of years ago.

I'm sure there's a lot more.

Has anybody wrote a book about the joys of living an honest, thoughtful, non-theistic lifestyle? There's so, so many great things I know I'd buy it.

[RaymondR]

Since deconverting my chances of considering suicide have decreased dramatically.
This is the only life I get. There is nothing better to look forward to after it, so my current philosophy is to try and make the most of it.

In my case at least the theist point of view of what I should think is 180 degrees from what I actually think.

The theist lives life in order to get to "heaven", and if that is taken away they must think that it's so depressing they would kill themselves. Or perhaps I am reading too much into their statement....

[JohNeo]

To be or not to be...

I figure I'm going to die anyway, and before that time comes I will have my share of pain and suffering. I will also experience plenty of joy and happiness that I can never know if I'm dead.

But enough cliches. I think that suicide is an action that is not exempt from the golden rule. Someone out there really loves you and cares for you...probably multitudes. Reverse the roles for a moment. If a person you really love and care for (maybe not all the time, but in general) offed himself or herself, would that not upset you just a little? You can't make amends once it's done.

I realize life can suck and can sometimes seem not worth living, but I have to agree that suicide is about the most selfish and pathological act out there.

Live till you die! :thumbs:

JohNeo

[TexasRose30]

I'll have to agree with some of the other posters and say, since this life is all I have, it is very precious to me. Who says you have to have some grand purpose to your life anyway? What's wrong with just enjoying it? There's no reason to feel guilty about that. If I leave no lasting mark on this world beyond the next couple of generations of my family who may remember me, I don't care because I'll still have enjoyed my life for my own sake.

Texas Rose

[Lucretius]

With their fantastic stories of how great Heaven is it should be Christians who should be thinking of suicide all the time.
In fact that's probably why suicide is considered such a grievous and mortal sin by Christians,otherwise they would all be walking of cliffs to get the good seats right next to god .

[Face]

The single most obvious answer I could come up with is that it is, as they say, my life, and thus I am free and welcome to define what it is for, how I'm going to use it, and to what extent I'm going to take it. So when they ask you why it matters whether you live or die, just answer, "Well it matters to ME, and I have things I plan to do, like this;" and then stick out your tongue and call the argument quits.

[Graeme]

Kids, marriage, career, etc...what the hell does any of it matter if I can't even decide whether I should live or not?



None of it matters even IF you can decide whether you should live or not... however, if you grab it by the horns, life is a fucking blast, why not enjoy it.

[Ebonmuse]

Aside from things we find pleasurable, what reason do we have to stick around on this earth?

I think you just answered your own question quite well. What's wrong with wanting to remain alive because life is a wonderful thing and you want to enjoy it while you can?

Once you're dead, you're dead. Even if you've helped millions of people, they'll all be dead too. So who really cares what you do here or how long you're here?

This implicitly assumes that good deeds don't matter unless their effect lasts for all time. I don't agree with that. Sure, the good you do may not matter in some distant hypothetical future hundreds of years ahead. But so what? It matters now. Isn't that enough?

An excerpt from a reply I wrote to a recent visitor to my website who asked me essentially the same question:

I can't speak for all atheists, but I personally have a great deal to live for. I want to learn and experience as much as I can about this glorious and beautiful world we live in. I have friends and loved ones whose company I enjoy a great deal. I want to do some good and make the lives of others a bit brighter by my having passed through them. And I'm curious about the future; I want to see what happens next.

I think any of those are perfectly good reasons to want to remain alive, regardless of whether any particular one applies at a given instant.

[Ebonmuse]

To me, the above question is like, if you're really hungry and this steak is all you have to eat, then why not just throw it away. Wha??? It makes no sense!

Well said! :notworthy I may have to steal that.

[shome42]

To me, the above question is like, if you're really hungry and this steak is all you have to eat, then why not just throw it away. Wha??? It makes no sense!



I'm not seeing the analogy. If you're hungry, that's a pain, and unless you're a masochist, you'd want relief from pain, and if there's a steak right in from of you, that'd be the most efficient way to relieve your pain, so you'd eat it instead of throwing it away.

There is no "hunger" that being alive relieves, and therefore I see no reason to keep it instead of throwing it away. That's the heart of the issue. Life's just this thing that exists for no apparent reason and serves no particular purpose; thus, you might as well discard it like a finger nail clipping.

[shome42]

I think you just answered your own question quite well. What's wrong with wanting to remain alive because life is a wonderful thing and you want to enjoy it while you can?

But what does it matter if you're dead and no longer experience joy. It's not as if when you're dead, you have to sit in a box and lament all the joy you're missing. There is no more YOU. All of the joy pain you once experienced and could be experiencing no longer matters.

Anyway, I often think that nothingness is superior to the constant battle between pleasure and pain we have on this earth, even if pleasure outweighs the pain. I sort of resent the human condition, i.e., the constant need to minimize your pain and maximise your pleasure. Yes, it's a game...some people win, some lose, and some, like me, would rather not play at all.

[Viti]

But what does it matter if you're dead and no longer experience joy.

You aren't dead if you're alive. Life is all there is, period. Certainly some people may want to check out of it early, but I sure don't see any point in hastening the ending the only existence I know.

It's not as if when you're dead, you have to sit in a box and lament all the joy you're missing. There is no more YOU. All of the joy pain you once experienced and could be experiencing no longer matters.

No, it only matters when you're alive. Why is that a problem?

Anyway, I often think that nothingness is superior to the constant battle between pleasure and pain we have on this earth, even if pleasure outweighs the pain. I sort of resent the human condition, i.e., the constant need to minimize your pain and maximise your pleasure. Yes, it's a game...some people win, some lose, and some, like me, would rather not play at all.

I never feel like that. If you feel like that, what's keeping you here?

[Anat]

Right now I have a daughter who needs me and a husband who loves me dearly and would feel utterly betrayed if I chose death over him. There are also lots of little things I enjoy about life, from learning all sorts of stuff, through helping kids learn to read to interacting with intelligent people in challenging ways. But one day I will be old and frail, I won't be able to do many of the things I enjoy and will be more of a burden then help to anyone. I reserve myself the right to end my life when I feel I have reached that point. My maternal grandmother regretted living the last 7 years of her life (she explicitly said so). She was gradually and continuously losing her independence. She couldn't engage in any of her many hobbies. She spent her last few months in a state of dementia. I hope I'll be able to stop before things get that bad for me, but one never knows.

[JohNeo]

I'm not seeing the analogy. If you're hungry, that's a pain, and unless you're a masochist, you'd want relief from pain, and if there's a steak right in from of you, that'd be the most efficient way to relieve your pain, so you'd eat it instead of throwing it away.

There is no "hunger" that being alive relieves, and therefore I see no reason to keep it instead of throwing it away. That's the heart of the issue. Life's just this thing that exists for no apparent reason and serves no particular purpose; thus, you might as well discard it like a finger nail clipping.

If no one had ever told you that your life is special because some wizard in the sky made the whole world for you, or that he sent his precious son to die on the cross for YOU, etc., do you think you would have the same outlook? Or would you just accept that we are part of the cycle of life like the flowers and animals and then go on living?

In other words, is life meaningless, or are you just disappointed because it turned out not to be what the bullshit fairy tales made you think?

Thomas Edison knew that he wasn't created for any special purpose, and so have countless atheists who have come before us. Is it fair to say that HIS life was a waste of time?

Try reading something like the Joy of Disillusionment by Dan Barker, or some other book that shares a reaffirmation of life free of the shackles of religion.

JohNeo

[Atheos]

I like being alive. Period. I take the good with the bad and live while I'm alive.

-Atheos

[Jakanapes]

I'm not seeing the analogy. If you're hungry, that's a pain, and unless you're a masochist, you'd want relief from pain, and if there's a steak right in from of you, that'd be the most efficient way to relieve your pain, so you'd eat it instead of throwing it away.

There is no "hunger" that being alive relieves, and therefore I see no reason to keep it instead of throwing it away. That's the heart of the issue. Life's just this thing that exists for no apparent reason and serves no particular purpose; thus, you might as well discard it like a finger nail clipping.

hmm, not true. Life relieves the hunger to be alive.

If you don't have the hunger, then why not end it? Of course, once you do, you never get to see what happens NEXT. Just oblivion for you, all the NEXT happens right here.

Life exists for a reason. It was able to survive and thrive in this environment.

Life serves a purpose. To live. What more do you need?

Again, though, I honestly don't understand the question. Say life IS reasonless and purposeless, so what? It exists. There's happiness to be found. It's generally better than nothingness. Why does that make you want to discard it like an old fingernail? I don't get it...

If you were in constant agony, blind, deaf and totally cut off from all other stimulus with no hope of recovery....then maybe...

[Jakanapes]

I'm not seeing the analogy. If you're hungry, that's a pain, and unless you're a masochist, you'd want relief from pain, and if there's a steak right in from of you, that'd be the most efficient way to relieve your pain, so you'd eat it instead of throwing it away.

OK, let's try this.

There's an amazing steak in front of you. You're not hungry, but you could eat. Again, you don't NEED to eat, you just happen to have some room.

Now the steak looks good and smells good, but there's the possibility that there's a chunk of bone in it or that it's gristly or something.

So here's this steak. You don't need it. There's a chance that it may displease you in some way, but there's also a pretty good chance that you'll get some enjoyment out of it.

What would you do? Throw the steak away? It doesn't mean anything. There's no reason for you to eat it. Other than that you might enjoy it.

Or would you consume the steak?


Life is that steak. Possibly a T-Bone.
:p

[Ebonmuse]

There is no "hunger" that being alive relieves, and therefore I see no reason to keep it instead of throwing it away.

I don't agree at all. Being alive does satisfy a basic human need: the desire to remain alive and to have new experiences. Don't you have people in your life whose company you enjoy? Aren't there things in the world you find beautiful and exhilarating? Aren't you at all curious to see what else is going to happen in your lifetime? Many people who are alive today may well witness a cure for paralysis, the abolition of genetic disease, the discovery of a grand unified theory of all physics, maybe even contact with intelligent life on another planet. Do prospects like that not affect you at all?

Life's just this thing that exists for no apparent reason and serves no particular purpose...

On the contrary, life does serve a purpose: the purpose you give it. Do you think your life needs meaning dogmatically imposed on it from outside to be worthwhile? Why can't you make up a purpose for yourself?

[Ebonmuse]

Anyway, I often think that nothingness is superior to the constant battle between pleasure and pain we have on this earth, even if pleasure outweighs the pain. I sort of resent the human condition, i.e., the constant need to minimize your pain and maximise your pleasure. Yes, it's a game...some people win, some lose, and some, like me, would rather not play at all.

Resentment only has a point if there's someone you can complain to. I agree that if there was a god who created us like this, then this imperfect, infinitesimal, infinitely limited span of existence would seem rather pointless. But, as best as we can tell, there isn't. To me, that's what invests our lives with real meaning: we're not pawns or puppets or lab rats in some senseless game too great for us to even glimpse. We're not going through the predestined motions to satisfy the unknowable will of a hidden being. We're here for our own sake, alive and free - even if for only a brief time - and here and now, for better or for worse, the things we do matter. We can make a difference; we can change others' lives and alter the future by our choices. As far as I'm concerned, that's enough. What more could you ask for or need?

[JohNeo]

Before this keeps going any further, I am going to say that I am concerned about your condition, Shome. Should I be?

The feeling of meaninglessness you express is simply not healthy or normal. I don't know if you're just trying to argue your point for the sake of arguing, but it sounds to me like you are depressed. I would suggest seeking counseling for it.

Like others here are saying, I believe that no outside entity predestined us, nor do I believe that we have to have meaning to anyone beside ourselves as a race in order to be happy and fulfilled.

The bad news is that you can't be everything you ever wanted to be, but the good news is you don't have to be anything you don't want to be. And you don't have to live up to the expectations of a god that no one can agree on.

Again, I think you should seek some help. Lots of people get depressed or feel that life is meaningless, so it's nothing to be ashamed of. I have been depressed before where I feel that life is not worth expending the energy to live. But when I am happy and I look back on the times when it seemed better not to live, without exception I am happy I kept pressing on.

I know that my "pep-talk" thus far has nothing whatsoever to do with secular lifestyles, but since you have based the subject of suicide on your loss of God, let me tell you: nothing would piss me off more than knowing someone killed him/herself because some asshole self-righteous theists made him feel that life was not worth living without their god. If anyone should try to tell you that you should kill yourself because you don't believe in their god, you have my permission to tell them their god chugs cock. :cool:

Be prepared to defend yourself. I hope you beat the shit out of them! :devil3:

Go out and live in spite of Jeebus.

JohNeo

[j-ogenes]

If my mother and sister and nephew weren't alive, or if I thought they wouldn't care, I'd kill myself right now.

[shome42]

Before this keeps going any further, I am going to say that I am concerned about your condition, Shome. Should I be?

I appreciate the concern, but I'm really not depressed, and there's no way (right now) that I'd kill myself. I was serious when I said my thoughts about suicide were merely philosophical musings.

[shome42]

I think I forgot to mention something very important about why I think about suicide-- I hate people. I don't mean that I'm anti-social or that I have trouble with intrapersonal relationships; I just mean that on a macro level, I hate humans. They're like parasites. They're animals. They're primative. They're superstitious. They're mostly out for themselves. And concerning atheism, I seriously hate humanity for not being able to see the stupidity in worshiping imaginary beings.

I heard something the other day about the possibility of a meteor hitting the earth and killing everyone. My first thought was "wow, that's horrible," then I thought, "well hey, if it means all humans would die, then that wouldn't be so bad."

For me, suicide would be a way of expressing my hatred of my own humanity. Common! I can't be the only atheist to think this way! I'm sure rational, skeptical people have a constant disdain for the irrational, fearful masses around them!

Well, I'm not so sanctimonious to think that I'm not a human myself, or even that I'm so superior that I should be placed in a separate category than these masses. As far as I'm concern, I AM one of them, and it's simply a fluke I was born with the genetics to reject worshipping the invisible man in the clouds and to kill my neighbor who worships a different god.

[Queen of Swords]

I can't be the only atheist to think this way! I'm sure rational, skeptical people have a constant disdain for the irrational, fearful masses around them!

I like to think I'm rational, but I would never have disdain for someone merely because they happened to be religious (which I assume comes under the irrational category?). And I don't despise people as a whole either.

[WagesofSin]

Yep, seems like you've got the problem(blessing) of Nihilism on the brain. Welcome to the club!

Here's a cool link on the issue: Nihilism (http://www.geocities.com/inescapableennui/nihilism.html)

And if your really going crazy about it, try Astral Projection (http://www.mysticweb.org/) .


As for me, I plan on ending my life in 7 years(that is if we even last that long)- no need to draw out this pointless game.



-WoS

[Eldarion Lathria]

I have seldom thought of suicide and never seriously considered it. My question for those who believe this world is a vale of sin and sorrow, and look forward eagerly to going to heaven, "Why don't you snuff yourselves and go early?" Toss yourselves into Arthur's bosom.

Eldarion Lathria

[rachmanfan]

I just mean that on a macro level, I hate humans. They're like parasites. They're animals. They're primative. They're superstitious. They're mostly out for themselves.

I sometimes think this way too. But then I realize that the reason I hate them is because I'm mostly out for myself (it's how ALL life is programmed afterall) and they are not doing what I want.

And concerning atheism, I seriously hate humanity for not being able to see the stupidity in worshiping imaginary beings.

I don't so much hate the fact that they believe, it's more like fear, and in some cases empathy. I see it as a disease, not much different than schizofrenia, that prevents people from acting in a rational way and I hate uncertainty. Uncertainty interferes with my self interests.


I heard something the other day about the possibility of a meteor hitting the earth and killing everyone. My first thought was "wow, that's horrible," then I thought, "well hey, if it means all humans would die, then that wouldn't be so bad."

It would be bad because if I survived it then my self interests would be in jeopardy as I was raised in the city and haven't the faintest clue about how to grow food. If I didn't survive it then I wouldn't give a shit simply because I wouldn't be able to give a shit.

Well, I'm not so sanctimonious to think that I'm not a human myself, or even that I'm so superior that I should be placed in a separate category than these masses. As far as I'm concern, I AM one of them, and it's simply a fluke I was born with the genetics to reject worshipping the invisible man in the clouds and to kill my neighbor who worships a different god.

Looks like we share pretty much the same thought process. For me though I don't think it's genetics as much as my fathers skill in teaching me critical thinking, starting from a very young age.

[Garnet]

Back and forth...back and forth...back and forth. I'll be honest. This is the only thread I've ever replied to without reading all the responses. And what I mean about back and forth, well, I wish you could see the results of the back, forward buttons on my browser.

Read a post, go back...go forward..read another post..go back...go forward...ad naseum.

The only thing and I do mean the ONLY thing that is keeping me from killing my self right now is the horrible impact it would have on those who love me.

And because of that, I can't even really think about suicide without thinking of them. Causes the suicidal thoughts to dwindle very rapidly.

Yet, they crop up from time to time. But my love of those who love me shouts NO!

Will it be different later on? Oh hell yes, I'm just in a bad patch right now.

But for the moment, what keeps me going is the love of my husband and my family.

OK..hand out the Hallmark Moment cards.

[Face]

I heard something the other day about the possibility of a meteor hitting the earth and killing everyone. My first thought was "wow, that's horrible," then I thought, "well hey, if it means all humans would die, then that wouldn't be so bad."
The interesting thing about being selfish and parasitical is whether or not it matters that we are. If, as you put it, it wouldn't matter if the world was obliterated, then it can't matter any more or less if we strip mine the place to hell and have an orgy first, not that I am suggesting anything.
For me, suicide would be a way of expressing my hatred of my own humanity. Common! I can't be the only atheist to think this way! I'm sure rational, skeptical people have a constant disdain for the irrational, fearful masses around them!
Many people doubtless do loathe the bad things people do. However, one trait you missed out on was illogical stubborness, which means that a lot of people express their feelings differently; say, in the form of irrepressably trying to make things better, even if their actions make no difference in the grand scheme of things.

[ComestibleVenom]

I don't think of suicide daily, because I don't often run into people who are better off killing themselves. ;)

[starling]

I like life a lot, and I don't want anything to die. Ever. The pain of knowing this isn't true has mostly crippled me, and sometimes in that grief I have considered suicide. Suicide isn't so much at attempt to do something, as an attempt to stop doing anything, to give up.

[DougP]

How about. If you believe you are going to heaven for eternity, why not just kill yourself?

-Doug

[Darwin Redux]

For me, suicide would be a way of expressing my hatred of my own humanity. Common! I can't be the only atheist to think this way! I'm sure rational, skeptical people have a constant disdain for the irrational, fearful masses around them!

Hate of Sky Fairies isn't a good enough reason to kill yourself. I've got the same disdain, but then I see my friends and I realise I don't hate all of them. And why would you kill yourself when there are such glorious things as Avocado and Chocolate Icecream!

[makebate dags]

Theists love to say to atheists things like: Well if you don't believe in god, and there's no heaven/hell, and this life is all you have, then why not just kill yourself?

A belief in god gives you no more right to living, than no belief in god. That's a good homicidal belief on the part of thiest that an athiest life is worthless and we should just kill them.

Funny that one would think a belief makes their life more important. I'm on a mission from an invisible friend of mine, that says your life is worthless. Fuck them. I don't need an invisible friend to tell that person how worthless he will feel when he realizes the truth.

It won't be because of anything I say or do, It would be because of the belief that life without god is meaningless. It's a belief, nothing more.

read this article here on infidels.org by keith augustine I think it could help you over that hurdle.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/augustine1.html

What makes our lives meaningful is that we find the activities we engage in to be worthwhile.- keith augustine

[HappyFunBall]

because i'm having too much fun!

and besides, if i killed myself i couldn't respond to crappy threads like this.

[Stout Drinker]

A thought popped in my head. It probably is bogus but here goes anyway.

I think that religious folks are much less likely to committ suicide than atheists. Now I haven't seen any studies so its conjecture on my part. But assume that both Christians and Atheists suffer from depression at similar rates. Lets further assume the idea of suicide pops in the head at similar rates. How would the two respond? I think that a Christian who lives with a command to 'not kill' and would worry about judgement day would be less likely to kill himself than an atheist who would not at all consider God in his life.

I suffer from depression myself and thoughts go in my head that I'd be better off dead. The main thing that stops me is I know the devasting effect it would have on my wife and parents and brother and friends. Personally I can take or leave life. Id doesn't mean much to me. However I would be affecting others adversely and I wouldn't want to do that.

[makebate dags]

A thought popped in my head. It probably is bogus but here goes anyway.

I think that religious folks are much less likely to committ suicide than atheists. Now I haven't seen any studies so its conjecture on my part. But assume that both Christians and Atheists suffer from depression at similar rates. Lets further assume the idea of suicide pops in the head at similar rates. How would the two respond? I think that a Christian who lives with a command to 'not kill' and would worry about judgement day would be less likely to kill himself than an atheist who would not at all consider God in his life.

I suffer from depression myself and thoughts go in my head that I'd be better off dead. The main thing that stops me is I know the devasting effect it would have on my wife and parents and brother and friends. Personally I can take or leave life. Id doesn't mean much to me. However I would be affecting others adversely and I wouldn't want to do that.

note: I apologize if this comes off too personal but I wish it to do so to any considering that suicide sounds appealing. NOT that it's not meant for you but that it's meant for just you. Thanks.

I would have to wonder why the idea of suicide pops into people's heads to begin with? Irregardless of some beliefs? To someone who has never been suicidal I wouldn't think the idea would sound appealing at all?

Who is more likely to consider suicide;

one who is healthy, vibrant and engaged in activities they enjoy.

one who is unhealthy, stagnant and disengaged from any activities they enjoy.

I think it's more a matter of entropy than anything else. If we are made of matter, energy. Doesn't it seem proper that as one is deteriorating to consider self extinguishment. Putting yourself out of your misery. The question being do you fight entropy, can the degrading process be reversed or slowed down, or do you give up and let entropy consume you? I guess entropy wins in the long run but until then why not try and enjoy doing something? anything.

Maybe entropy makes it where only one choice seems available, I don't know.

Misery probably comes to people through many of the same avenues. Your methods to deal with it are more likely the matter at hand, than a belief in some super imaginary friend real or not that will kick your ass for killing yourself. OF course if we are discussing the biblical god then I wouldn't take his thou shalt not kill too seriously since throughout the bible, this one has ordered many persons to draw their swords and put others to death. Contradiction, no? Death is a permanent loss of you, once gone there is no returning.

IF you've attempted suicide you'll see that the counterforce to it is pretty strong. Years upon years of survival instincts passed down but with no end purposefully determined. What survives is the only determination. Therefore what has survived has done so because of the traits that make survival possible.

Think before taking that leap friend. Some ancient ancestor of yours might have plowed through hell and high water fighting to survive in an much more dangerous world and here you are now. How hard have you had to fight for your survival, for your childrens? Fight now, and when and if circumstances take you away from your life, at least you had fought back.

Theres more to it than an belief in some fantasy land after death for christians, or being afraid of some soul thing being tortured. Life is something that if not passed on with be extinguished and gone. I guess the implications run much deeper but I'll stop right there. That's my take on it, and being an Athiest I encourage you to live and to fight for that which you have been given from those who have done the same for all your previous family members in the past. These reasons to live, to fight have nothing to do with some belief in god, or not. They have everything to do with a belief in something that all your ancestors believed was worth fighting for and passing on so it could be experienced by you.

best regards - drift

[JohNeo]

<snip>
Who is more likely to consider suicide;

one who is healthy, vibrant and engaged in activities they enjoy.

one who is unhealthy, stagnant and disengaged from any activities they enjoy.

I think it's more a matter of entropy than anything else. If we are made of matter, energy. Doesn't it seem proper that as one is deteriorating to consider self extinguishment. Putting yourself out of your misery. The question being do you fight entropy, can the degrading process be reversed or slowed down, or do you give up and let entropy consume you? I guess entropy wins in the long run but until then why not try and enjoy doing something? anything.
<snip>

I agree mostly with what you're saying, but depression (including bipolar disorder) defies logic, just as suicide flies in the face of self-preservation.

I agree that entropy is probably more likely to be the condition in the life of someone who commits suicide, but I think it's more likely that entropy is a symptom of depression than the other way around. Vibrant, energetic people are less likely to commit suicide than stagnant people, but I think it's not because they are more energetic, it's because they are probably not deeply depressed.

However, I do think that the entropy associated with depression worsens one's outlook and probably makes it that much harder to overcome. But unfortunately it's not as easy as just getting people with chronic depression to just get on with things and keep busy. Perhaps that is the difference between the "blues," or mild depression like I sometimes get, and the more severe types of depression. I can usually call people, think of things to do etc., to get my mind off of my sorrows and the "depression" goes away. But I am fortunate to be a very mild case, AFAIK.

JohNeo

[starling]

To me, the above question is like, if you're really hungry and this steak is all you have to eat, then why not just throw it away. Wha??? It makes no sense!

Weird... seems an issue with me at least. What's the point of eating the steak if you're going to starve to death anyway? Not like we're going to get rescued, from irreversible decay. ;)

[dcm]

May I reproduce something here that I posted earlier that you might find interesting? Here goes:

Depression is a weakness if it becomes debilitating. Mild depression may be a survival strategy we have to alert us to potential dangers. I'm no psychiatrist but I suspect some depression results when we fail to recognize our limitations. I've learned to accept mine and so that's not a factor in my life. I approach it from a Darwinist perspective: diversity is crucial to our survival. I work with what I have.

You guys talked about death: 100,000 generations have gone before us (died) to give us a marvelous set of genes so that we have an opportunity to experience life. I find it to be an honor, when I die, to contribute to that lineage.

I have immense respect for life as I've spent most of my life studying it. We are marvelously constructed and grossly underestimate our uniqueness in the Milky Way (life may common but not intelligent life). If nothing more, I am proud to be a part of this uniqueness!

For me, God is a survival strategy for a fragile humanity: our thoughts, feelings, emotions. Frankly, I think it takes a special wisdom to transcend this fragility and meet with confidence and strength our ultimate fate alone (without God).

DC

[nihilist]

I try to be strong.

I try not to think about suicide.

I try to prove to myself that even if life by ittself is meaningless, I lose nothing by living it.

But presently I can't avoid to think about it sometimes, not always, just sometimes.

Maybe my lonelyness is guilty.

Maybe my skepticism, that prevents me believing in people.

I don't know. All I know is that sometimes it is very hard t'be an atheist and t'be always alone.

Nihilist , a proud (??) atheist

:notworthy :notworthy

[makebate dags]

I try to be strong.

I try not to think about suicide.

I try to prove to myself that even if life by ittself is meaningless, I lose nothing by living it.

But presently I can't avoid to think about it sometimes, not always, just sometimes.

Maybe my lonelyness is guilty.

Maybe my skepticism, that prevents me believing in people.

I don't know. All I know is that sometimes it is very hard t'be an atheist and t'be always alone.

Nihilist , a proud (??) atheist

:notworthy :notworthy

Are we really alone? I think Einstein puts it best in The World As I See It and I quote from page 1

The meaning of life:

What is the meaning of human life, or of organic life altoghether? To answer this question at all implies a religion. Is there any sense then, you ask, in putting it? I answer, the man who regards his own life and that of his fellow-creatures as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life.

The world as I see it:

What an extraordinary situation is that of us mortals! Each of us is here for a brief sojourn; for what purpose he knows not, though he sometimes thinks he feels it.

note: any spelling errors my own I'm typing this in from a book


I think it's fair to say that Einstein understood it. What I've said earlier that you have to give your life meaning by doing activities that you find are worthwhile. The purpose of living isn't given, it isn't written in stone, it's what you choose to do that gives your life meaning. I think it's true that life is not a given, it's can be as much a burden as a pleasure. It might be as simple as the difference between looking up and looking down. I've got no one to blame for everytime I feel lame, it's not like I'm posting here for any particular reason. I somehow choose to enjoy or despise posting here, peculiar how we can enjoy despising things?

- drift