Hell, are you afraid

[johntheapostate]

I was raised in a very fundamentalist home. The fear of hell was implanted young and often.

I live in a conservative area and I became an atheist without the support of any non believing friends, family, literature or web sites.

In fact my unbelief was challanged repeatadly untill I became much more informed with the text of the bible than my family members at which point they refused to debate the bible under any curcumstances.

I think they became more concerned that they would be deconverted than there concern over my eternal destiny.

The problem was that from time to time I would find myself feeling a sense of anxiety and thinking about hell. In my rational mind I had no doubts that the bible was an absurd human invention, yet somewhere in a primitive irational part of my mind the fear of hell that had been imprinted when I was young remained

I am happy to say that over the years this anxiety has subsided to where any mention of hell brings a sense of amusement at the oportunity of another Christian as fair game for debate.

I am just wondering if there are any ex Christians who had the same experiance or if they where able to dislodge the fear of hell in a relitivly short time.

[JohNeo]

<snip>
I am just wondering if there are any ex Christians who had the same experiance or if they where able to dislodge the fear of hell in a relitivly short time.

I was raised moderately Christian, so the threat of hell was never much of an issue, except for some asshole kids I knew who were fundies and felt it was their duty to tell me all about it :rolleyes: .

I pretty much learned to slough off the threat of hell before I deconverted, mainly by refusing to speak to fundies about it, and simply because I figured anything fundies had to say about hell was regurgitation and they were ignorant anyway.

My moderately religious fellow churchgoers who try to bring me back into the fold would never pull out the Hell card, because they know that will only drive me further away. Of course it's fun when I say "so if you think I'm not going to Heaven, what do YOU think will happen to me?" They will never tell me I am going to Hell. :huh: If they tell me my apostacy won't land me in Hell, then I ask them "so why should I be Christian?"

I do think there is a pervasive tendency for people to want to believe in Hell, just so we can hope that the most rotten and evil people will end up there. I know I hoped the 9/11 hijackers would wake up to find themselves with sex-crazed sodomites in Hell rather than virgins in paradise, etc. ;) Of course, I was still Christian then.

So for me, Hell is as much wishful thinking as Heaven.

[Ken W]

I too had a lot of mild anxiety about hell for the longest time after becoming semi-atheist. I even had it after the point where I knew it was irrational to think about such things. Hell is a powerful motivator and I scream bullshit every time I hear people are motivated to do good by god's love. I believe people are more afraid of burning for eternity. I've heard more sermons about hell and the wages of sin than sermons about examples of how god loves.

[johntheapostate]

My moderately religious fellow churchgoers who try to bring me back into the fold would never pull out the Hell card, because they know that will only drive me further away. Of course it's fun when I say "so if you think I'm not going to Heaven, what do YOU think will happen to me?" They will never tell me I am going to Hell. :huh: If they tell me my apostacy won't land me in Hell, then I ask them "so why should I be Christian?"


The psychological process by which some Christians are able to believe in heaven and at the same time deny the concept of hell is amazing to me. In my opinion hell has no less textual support than heaven and belief in one should logically lead to belief in the other.


I am amazed ( and maybe a little jealous ) at the ability of the majority of humanity to interprete information, even totaly contradictory, so that it does not endanger the world view that allows them to function.

[Corso]

I grew up in a non-religious family, so I was never indoctrinated with the fear of hell. But a few years ago, I was watching a program on TLC about near-death experiences. One of the segments that really had an effect on me was about a former atheist named Howard Storm (http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/storm.htm) He had a terrifying NDE that sent him to hell. Storm described hell as a dark place with thousands of demons that surround and devour you. His experience was so powerful that he became a born again Xtian and joined the ministry.

I then spent alot of time researching NDE’s and read about a case that was a sharp contrast to Howard Storm’s. The famous atheist philosopher, A.J Ayer, had his own brush with death which did not involve hell(or Jesus) at all! So, this caused me much confusion. Why would some atheists go to hell and others go to heaven? Unless of course, NDE’s are nothing more than products of the human brain.........

[southernhybrid]

I became an atheist without the support of any non believing friends, family, literature or web sites.

Me too.

I was raised by newly converted fundies during the 50s and 60s. As a child I was very frightened of hell but as soon as I became enlightened at about the age of 18 or 19, the fear left me immediately. It's sad to think of how many children have been left with emotional baggage from their childhood fears of hell.

I'm glad you're over it now, John.

Too bad fundies don't realize that hell and heaven are metaphors for life here on earth. They waste so much time worrying about imaginary worlds that don't exist and often miss out on the joyful experience of living. Heaven is where you find it.

[Columbus]

I grew up in a non-religious family, so I was never indoctrinated with the fear of hell. But a few years ago, I was watching a program on TLC about near-death experiences. One of the segments that really had an effect on me was about a former atheist named Howard Storm (http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/storm.htm) He had a terrifying NDE that sent him to hell. Storm described hell as a dark place with thousands of demons that surround and devour you. His experience was so powerful that he became a born again Xtian and joined the ministry.

I then spent alot of time researching NDE’s and read about a case that was a sharp contrast to Howard Storm’s. The famous atheist philosopher, A.J Ayer, had his own brush with death which did not involve hell(or Jesus) at all! So, this caused me much confusion. Why would some atheists go to hell and others go to heaven? Unless of course, NDE’s are nothing more than products of the human brain.........

I once found a website devoted to NDE. It was just a long string of stories people told, with minimal background about each one. What I noticed was that everyone had an experience that they expected. Jewish people landed in the bosum of Abraham. Christians met Jesus and angels. Non-believers were reunited with deceased family members.
This website did not give me any reason to believe that any particular religious belief was more true than any other. It did give me an understanding about how ancient NDEs could have re-inforced the religious beliefs held at the time.

Tom

[Jedi Mind Trick]

It was the hell issue that actually did the most to deconvert me.
On my way to deconversion I spent about a year in the Christian Universalist theological camp. It was my last stop before agnosis. Anyway, while there I read voraciously about the hell issue, resulting in a deprograming of sorts. In fact, the universalist authors I read made very reasonable arguments against the justice of the hell concept, some of the best arguments I’ve read actually.

I worried more about hell as a christain than I do now.

[PatrickHays]

I was just a strange child, I loved the horror genre . . . So, with the idea that I shall be considered weird as an adult . . . I thought hell sounded cool. However, it did not make since to me . . . I never really bought in to the idea or concept of hell, it just did not click . . . So, it was cool, a great idea for a late night movie. Sorry, just a weird kid.

[Ceverante]

I don't really have a choice. It is against my basic nature to accept preposterous stories and claims without compelling and substantiable evidence. If I have to go to hell for that, so be it. I accept the consequences of my choice.

If I have to give in to threats and cease to be what I am to become a sheep, that'll already be 'hell' enough for me. But I swear to whatever god you believe in (matter of expression), I WILL proceed to give 'god' the cursing and swearing of the most blasphemous nature in his existence for making me what I am, providing me with the ability and nature to question 'him', the intelligence for rational, analytical and critical thinking and punishing me for it.... :angry:

What sort of a divine sicko would do that... :huh:

[Bright Life]

For a time, I was afraid of panthers under the bed. But as an atheist child, hell held no fear for me.

[Alter]

NDEs are just a product of the dying brain, like a dream. The poor guy just had a nightmare.


Don't feel bad about havign an irrational attraction toward the supernatural, EVEN if you totally don't believe in it. It's genetic!

We *do* have the "god-gene" within us, as spirituality was a way to personally conform with society (and the church, who could legally kill you for heresy). It was also a way to deal with a world that at times was full of wanton and irrational death and destruction. Constant wars, famines, plagues, and deaths from little things like infection took a huge toll on the human psyche. Believing in an afterlife was a way to deal with it, and those who dealt were more successful.

So we're hardwired to think that way, I still do. But I know it's just a genetic relic, that's all.

[Eldarion Lathria]

I was never afraid of hell, any more than I was afraid of Mordor.

Eldarion Lathria

[Rational BAC]

There is no hell--or at least there is no burning sulpherous, torturous hell.

All made up crap.

There might possibly be a "hell" of non-existence, otherwise known as separation from God after death.

But what the hell --how would you know it anyway? And what you don't know can't hurt you.

No harm no foul--Right?

[john_v_h]

Despite my irreligiousness, I used to have a lingering fear of hell and damnation. Until I saw it on my TV on 9/11/2001. Then I knew that whether it plays out in our heads or on our televisions, hell is a monster of our very own creation.

[Answerer]

Hell, are you afraid ?


No, but I was afraid of death. :funny: :funny:

[Pjanc]

What sort of a divine sicko would do that... :huh:
:notworthy

As for my reply on the subject, my mother is a 'worse' Catholic than she'd admit but my father's an aheist so basically I was only partially exposed to religion. I think that the first thing that pushed me away from religion was that I was forced to go to church and watch that weirdly dressed chap talk about stuff I had no clue about. Neither could I figure out why the chap on the paintings was crucified. I think the dosage of the hell stick I got wasn't fatal and I didn't really think about it until my logic improved so I don't think I ever really feared it, tho it did scare me. But then again, my father was probably the reason that it didn't have more effect since he couldn't give a rat's arse about it.

[Classical]

I was raised in a very fundamentalist home. The fear of hell was implanted young and often.

I live in a conservative area and I became an atheist without the support of any non believing friends, family, literature or web sites.

In fact my unbelief was challanged repeatadly untill I became much more informed with the text of the bible than my family members at which point they refused to debate the bible under any curcumstances.

I think they became more concerned that they would be deconverted than there concern over my eternal destiny.

The problem was that from time to time I would find myself feeling a sense of anxiety and thinking about hell. In my rational mind I had no doubts that the bible was an absurd human invention, yet somewhere in a primitive irational part of my mind the fear of hell that had been imprinted when I was young remained

I am happy to say that over the years this anxiety has subsided to where any mention of hell brings a sense of amusement at the oportunity of another Christian as fair game for debate.

I am just wondering if there are any ex Christians who had the same experiance or if they where able to dislodge the fear of hell in a relitivly short time.

I first heard about hell in a baptist church at the age of 9 or 10, and it scared me so badly that I got saved and baptized within a week. That week of waiting was like hell to me, I was so afraid me or my family would accidentally get killed before we got saved and burn forever for our sins just like the preacher said.

It was well into adulthood (around age 27) that I finally deconverted and this only happened when I became thoroughly convinced that hell was just a human invention. I was just finishing a Ph.D., but still the fear of hell remained in spite of education and exposure to the "real world." I am quite sure that christian theology would not have survived into modern times if the threat of hell wasn't made up right along with the rest of the doctrines.

[Avatar]

I was raised in a more liberal home, and Hell had no real place in our theology. I was first exposed to it, oddly enough, by a television show about NDEs featuring people who had terrible, frightening experiences (I think it was "That's Incredible". I loved that show as a boy.). I had nightmares for weeks.

I was never threatened with it, never warned against it. I was astonished when I ran into people who believed it to be a real place when I had been taught that it was a state of mind.

It irritates me to no end when someone tells me "You are going to Hell!" I'm not afraid of actually going to Hell...I'm hacked off because this obnoxious judgemental person has decided to pass his judgement on me. He's judging me, not God. That pretty much sums it up about how I feel when I hear someone claim that this or that person/group is hellbound--it's a judgement of the person making the claim.

I shudder to think about the lives that are led by kids who are told they are hellbound over and over again by their "well-meaning" parents. :angry:

[Philippe*]

I was raised a Catholic and I have not got the fear of hell during my childhood, at least I felt myself safe from that. However I remember to have seen a cartoon "Mickey's Christmas" I believe ;) where a character sees his future in grave and the bottom opens on hell lol. We used to tell us hell is only for men such Hitler and there are many catholics telling there is purgatory and everybody will be saved in the end thanks to the intercession. I deconverted at the age of 13.

Actually it is only later when I read the Bible and the Coran, and various texts. I find many good points but I was astonished by such a violence and mental pressure inside, I had thought before reading it was more positive on the whole. First I don't see in the Bible where it is said clearly that non-elects burn for eternity, it concerns Satan and his like, on the other hand it speaks of the second death several times. But the most amazing thing that striked me is that I thought it might be really bad for mental health to take seriously all that literally.

Philippe

[krazykatlady]

My husband was raised in a fanatically evangelistic household. In his home, for instance, his Beatles albums were smashed by his stepfather because rock music is evil. :rolling: Tony (husband) calls himself an agnostic, but I know he is uneasy w/ what may or may not happen after death. He still hopes there will be some otherworldly reward for living the good life. I believe that he likely clings to the fear of eternal damnation. However, we haven't discussed his past much, as he's very sensitive about much of the physical & mental abuse he received from his stepfather and the church. :(
I was raised in a pretty strict Roman Catholic household. Hell never much scared me. I too was a big horror fan as a kid. I always thought hell looked pretty cool. :thumbs: However, growing up Catholic, I definitely developed that stereotypical Catholic guilt. (Maybe TMI, but) It took years before I could masturbate w/o feeling dirty. :o There are a lot of irrational guilt issues I still struggle with, but I think I've come a long way from that little girl w/ the blonde pony tail in the blue plaid jumper.
Ange =^..^=

[johntheapostate]

I was raised a Catholic and I have not got the fear of hell during my childhood, at least I felt myself safe from that. However I remember to have seen a cartoon "Mickey's Christmas" I believe ;) where a character sees his future in grave and the bottom opens on hell lol. We used to tell us hell is only for men such Hitler and there are many catholics telling there is purgatory and everybody will be saved in the end thanks to the intercession. I deconverted at the age of 13.

Actually it is only later when I read the Bible and the Coran, and various texts. I find many good points but I was astonished by such a violence and mental pressure inside, I had thought before reading it was more positive on the whole. First I don't see in the Bible where it is said clearly that non-elects burn for eternity, it concerns Satan and his like, on the other hand it speaks of the second death several times. But the most amazing thing that striked me is that I thought it might be really bad for mental health to take seriously all that literally.

Philippe


Paul is fairly specific on the fate of the reprobate, although he does not go into detail on the specifics of the destruction of the reprobate, he does at times talk about " eternal condemnation"

I will post something that I wrote in the Calvinism thread that reveals Paul's vision for the reprobate and their relation to the elect.


I have gone through these passages before, but I would like to go through them again in order to clarify how believers in absolute predestination can integrate the many instances where god condemns and punishes individuals for choices they have made.

The passages from 2 Samuel 24 come to mind, where god is seen to be inciting David and at the same time condemning and punishing Davids actions

If one were not compelled to believe that god would not do such a thing, an idea that it was possible for god to be the instigator of certain behavior and at the same time condemn and punish the individual for that behavior could be justified in the plain reading of the text.


And it is just this conclusion that Paul expresses in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 9:16 ' It does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort but on God's mercy. For the scriptures say to Pharaoh, I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

It is interesting that Paul immediately follows his message of god's mercy with an illustration from scripture that depicts god's lack of mercy in the case of Pharaoh and his people

In Paul's mind it is it is critical that he convey to his readers that god was responsible for initiating all human behavior, good or bad. In fact in these passages he explicitly places the fate of Pharaoh directly after his assertion of the absolute sovereignty of the will of god over the actions of man

We have the assertion that it was god who initiated the actions that led to death and destruction in Egypt. We also are informed of the motive. God initiated the series of event in order to glorify himself in the eyes of the Israelites and of the whole world.

To further illustrate that it was this he intended to convey, Paul adds the passage which show god taking ownership over the actions of men.

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden"

Paul shows that god does this only on the basis of his good pleasure, and to enforce that this is the case he anticipates and answers the objection that would only arise if this was so.

" One of you will say to me, Then why does god still blame us? For who resists his will"

This is a question that confirms Paul's intended message. For by his choice of words Paul affirms that yes he is intending that we are to understand that he believes that god will judge us for actions that god himself initiated.

And here we have the crux of the predestination answer to those who insist we must have free will and through this we are able to act in ways contrary to gods will and by which he is justified in imposing condemnation.

One can simply understand that even in those cases where it appears a choice is given and condemnation and punishment are the result, god is still the initiator of those actions.

In his choice of words " Why does he still blame US " Paul shows that he considers everyone to be subject to the doctrine he has just outlined and not just historical figures such as Pharaoh

To any reasonable person a god such as this has no basis in logic and reasonable behavior and we would expect some form of justification for this behavior. Paul supplies the answer to the objection .

" But who are you O man to talk back to god? shall what is formed say to him who formed it, Why have you made me like this?"

Again Paul enforces his intended message. We are the product in every way, positive and negative of the intent of god. Paul reinforces his doctrine in the next passages.

" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble use and some for common use"

Again in his choice of words Paul hammers home his doctrine. In the form of question Paul explicitly defines the role of man and his destiny as having the same relationship as a lump of clay to a potter. To further enforce his point that we have no more influence over our destiny than an inanimate object Paul continues.

What if God choosing to show his wrath and make his power known bore with great patience the objects of his wrath prepared for destruction"

Here Paul clearly defines the reprobate as no more than an object, not preparing himself for destruction, but being prepared by god for destruction.

But why would God do such a thing? Paul could again have answered that we do not have the right to question the motives of god. But as a concession to his readers and a revelation of his personal belief, he elaborates further.

"What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy whom he prepared in advance for glory, even us whom he also called."

And in this passage Paul reveals the justification for all god's actions. In the same way as the reprobate is an object prepared for destruction, the elect is simply an object of mercy prepared for glory. Both objects inherit there fate as a matter of god's good pleasure. And in the same way as god brought death and destruction on to the Egyptians in order that he might be glorified in the eyes of the Israelites and the world, he will also inflict eternal damnation on the reprobate so that he may be glorified in the eyes of the elect in that in comparison to the suffering of the damned the elect may be made aware of gods great mercy to them that received there blessing only at gods discretion and not on any merit in themselves.

[Cynthia of Syracuse]

This thread is more suited to SL.

[Philippe*]

Yes, John, I agree about this damnation which would be eternal, and on this predestination affair, it is quite clear in the text. One thing that striked me too is how Catholics seem away from the Scriptures. A protestant fundamentalist has said once on a board all religions follow their holy scriptures except Catholics, it is for sure ironic but there is some truth. That's why to know more I have done investigations on protestant and evangelical fields after. But when I read the Bible I see this damnation as a second death, oblivion rather than hellfire. Torments in the lack of fire are eternal for Satan and his angels in the Revelation, whereas it is the place of the second death for the reprobate. So why is there all this folklore about eternal pain for the reprobate ? It is not biblical according to my Bible's translations, but on the other hand we find it in the Koran though it is said a few times that it could not last for eternity and infidels could enter in paradise since Allah does what he wants afterall.

Philippe

[johntheapostate]

I guess Christians base there concept of hell on the words of Jesus.

Matthew 5:22 " But I tell you that anyone who says "You fool" will be in danger of the fire of hell."

This could be interpreted as destruction but other verses seem to indicate eternal suffering.

Matthew 18:8 " If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire"

In my opinion the urgency of Jesus's words indicate a fate of eternal suffering rather than simple destruction.

We also have the account of the rich man in hell.

Luke 16:22-24 " The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, So he called to him " Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire"

So there is some textual justification for the concept of hell as eternal fiery agony.

[Boomeister]

Yes, it took a long time for me to get over the fear of Hell. I was raised in a fundamentalist household and believed in Hell, along with other Christian beliefs. When I deconverted, there was this lingering "but what if?"
What helped me get over the idea of Hell is...
if there is a God and God punishes me for not believing in certain things and I go to Hell, then wouldn't it be worse to be in the presence of God in Heaven?
The idea of Hell is repugnant.
Since when we die, we lose our bodily senses, it doesn't make sense to feel anything. We will be "asleep," just like we were before we were even conceived. I believe this will be the case whether there is a God or not.
My rational mind has helped me to deal with the fear of Hell. I can see right through it now. I see it as a fear tactic made up to get people to follow and obey. If something makes sense, I'll believe it. If it doesn't, I won't. Fear tactics cannot be used against me, as I see it as manipulation. An argument for Christianity or for any other belief-system either holds water or it doesn't. I vote that it doesn't...although many disagree.

Boomeister

[Atheos]

There's little doubt that the doctrine of hell contributed as much as anything else to my eventual deconversion. There is just no way to reconcile "loving, merciful, all-wise God" with "eternal torment for the skeptical". Realizing that it was all just bullshit gave me relief in ways I cannot describe.

-Atheos

[Philippe*]

I don't know old greek, for me eternal fire doesn't imply eternal pain, but it can be taken like that. There are more references as the final death. There is a contradiction with the story of the man, since it is at the reckoning day that the damned are thrown to the lake of fire. Hellfire was not very jewish, I believe the dead went to "Hades", maybe it is a punishement of the dead "spirit" in Hades. But you are not judged before, the first resurrection are for the elect, the second for the damned. But it is not the only one weird contradiction in the Bible.

It is rather light. Here is the famous John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

With eternal pain, you must have got the eternal life.

But I take it rather like that : As it is not very clear in doubt it is better to consider the worst possible case, we don't know. :(

As many christians would say, take Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, and you will be saved, don't try to understand. Personally I can't trust the Bible as the supreme Truth, not only on the intellectual level but on the human one too...

I am watching a documentary about Auschwitz now, it recalls me the book from Primo Levi "If this is a man..." hell on Earth but "at least" for a limited moment...

Philippe

[The Whiffle Man]

I was originally going to create my own thread, but it seems more appropriate to join threads then start a new one on the same topic....Here is what I originally was going to post word for word:

Has anybody ever become afraid of God? I suppose I'm talking about Hell. But I guess it works like this. I'm no longer a Christian and have no reason to believe in the Bible or anything. But I was thinking about arguments against Christianity the other day and I kind of thought to myself - what reason, even if there is proof of the Bible or the Quran, do we have to believe that God is not just toying with us? I kind of scared myself with that thought actually....I thought "Wow - what if he is toying with us" and it's made me a little paranoid.

Have any non-theists (or even theists) dealt with something like that? What did you do?


Kevin

[Atheos]

That's a good question, Kevin. If you are going to believe in God, you can either swallow everything in the Bible without question or you have to start asking uncomfortable questions.

Of course part of the nature of God as described in the Bible is such that you should not question God. God has the right to do anything. And just because God does it, it's "good." Even if it involves indiscriminately killing 150,000 victims in a tsumami.

Eventually, however, a responsible adult must face the question, "What is God's motive?"

Are we simply entertainment for a bored deity?

Why would someone so vast as to have been able to create this universe care whether or not an insignificant bacteria such as I rendered praise to the name of God?

Is it really conceivable that the same God responsible for the existence of everything is so petty as to require blood sacrifice because I did something God didn't like?

What if God really intends to send every one of us to HELL? In the end it doesn't matter if we sucked up or flipped the proverbial finger. How can anyone be sure that any religious text accurately portrays the wishes of a being who chooses not to be seen or heard?

The only comfort I can find is in the fact that all the evidence points to the conclusion that the whole thing is just another made up story, designed to intimidate and control large numbers of people. There is absolutely no evidence to support an invisible sky daddy.

-Atheos

[San Bernardino]

There's little doubt that the doctrine of hell contributed as much as anything else to my eventual deconversion. There is just no way to reconcile "loving, merciful, all-wise God" with "eternal torment for the skeptical". Realizing that it was all just bullshit gave me relief in ways I cannot describe.
-Atheos

With apologies for the "me too" post -- I have to say a big, hearty Me Too to Atheos. That contradiction between love/wisdom and eternal torment sent Christianity to my own personal dustbin of history.

[Morethancaffine]

Hi all, I'm new here, but I'd just like to chime in.

There is no hell--or at least there is no burning sulpherous, torturous hell.

All made up crap.

I think Rational BAC has hit it on the head here. Though there are references to fire, torture, buring etc., they are relatively few in the bible itself.

What most people percieve of when the word "hell" is used in a biblical punishment context, are the images that were conjured up in Dante's Inferno, a work of fiction. (Hehe, maybe I should say, another work of fiction. :devil3: )

But hey, in for a dime in for a dollar, right? :rolleyes:

[jmem]

Yes I had this experience, especially throughout my teenage years and even into my early twenties. I was very afraid that I had it all wrong and that there really might be a hell, where I would promptly go upon my death for being so cynical. The fear very gradually faded as I gained more confidence and certainty in my beliefs.

[Philippe*]

Yes, actually yesterday I found a passage in the Revelation about eternal torments for the Beast worshippers.

Rev 14:9-13
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.

I tend to think that it would even be an ignorant insult towards a loving God to make him such a tyrant. People didn't ask to be born to be sent in hell.

Philippe

[nihilist]

I have never been afraid of hell, although my mother and my brothers have always believed in it. It is a disgusting lie, and I wonder how a father who really loves his children can tell them such things. Happily, I was never afraid of it, but I know people who are, and they can't be convinced that this is impossible. It is impossible to think of a person bad enough to deserve to suffer eternally. I hope one day you'll be definitly free from this cruel lie your parents put in your head, Jonh.

Nihilist, a proud atheist

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

[spicy]

My parents decided to become members of a fundamentalist evangelical Christian church (Evangelical United Brethren!) when I was 11 years old and forced me to attend every tri-weekly service for 2 horrific years. Not only did I resent being forced to attend, I never did buy into the idea of the Bible being written by God. Oh, I tried to believe many times, but simply could not accept any of it as being more than quasi-historical fiction. And the reason I tried to believe? Hell. Week after week of hearing about the perpetual torment that I would be subjected to for not "accepting Jesus Christ as my personal Savior" and watching others run up to the altar to be "saved" occasionally caused me to question my disbelief. I mean, what if there was a hell and I was just too dense to accept that Jesus was really trying to save me from going there? Oh the agony of struggling with that, trying to believe what I have never been able to believe. For me that is hell! Although I finally escaped the hell of being forced to go to church, I continued to question my disbelief until I went to college and learned that I was, and am, an agnostic. And that I am not alone in my agnosticism. My fear of hell was replaced by anger at having been subjected to threats of it. I chose to dismiss the idea of hell's existence and have managed to live fear-of-hell-free ever since. Is that heaven?
Last year my now Southern Baptist (!) sister in her Christian tenderness for me told me that I am going to hell. I told her that I was not, since I don't believe in hell. Her reply? "You will when you get there!"

I really appreciate the statement:



I am amazed ( and maybe a little jealous ) at the ability of the majority of humanity to interprete information, even totaly contradictory, so that it does not endanger the world view that allows them to function.

[Z500]

I'm more scared of not existing one day than hell.

[Boomeister]

I'm more scared of not existing one day than hell.

What's so scary about not existing? Your brain will be dead, along with the rest of your body, you will not perceive anything anymore. There's nothing to fear, because you will literally be unable to fear.
Were you afraid that you had not existed before you were born (or before you were conceived)? For millions or billions of years, you hadn't existed. I think you did just fine, so did I.

Boomygrrl

[makebate dags]

I am just wondering if there are any ex Christians who had the same experiance or if they where able to dislodge the fear of hell in a relitivly short time.

I'm an ex-christian, christian by birth you could say. Born out of it through some thinking of my own, and some help along the way.

Hell holds no power over my beliefs

As of today, this very day. Hell holds no more power over my beliefs than being afraid that some object sitting here on my desk is going to jump up and fling itself at me. Thrown of course for typing this by some invisible boss-being? :angel:

People get some strange ideas in their heads and the strange ideas can become real to them. Real enough to make them afraid, real enough to make them shut off any thinking part of their brains, even possible real enough to make them create hallucinations and to behave in real ways brought on by their delusional beliefs.

A Real Hallucination

When I was a child I remember watching poltergiest and it seemed to me as I watched a room full of toys come alive and the little girl was screaming and running around, that the walls in my house began to move and the lamps in the living room started moving around. A self induced hallucination. It's fascinating to me to this day of what I experienced, but did it really happen. Of course not. But if I trusted what I experienced against all other evidence that these things don't really happen, then I guess I'd think walls can really come alive and lamps too?

Understanding Hell

To fully understand hell, I think you have to understand the people that created the idea of hell, and their motivations for doing so. To keep people in line, to make them afraid, and to make them listen to the worst of notions, to blind them from the truth through fear.

Hell is a myth, that can become a hallucination if believed enough. Hell was created to make people afraid and to keep them that way. If you believe enough then to you it's as real a place as any other. A place your mind will protect you from by keeping the belief intact.

What Evidence Do You Believe

What's the evidence that your body is not really you, that some other thing can jump out of a dead body and continue on this extra you-ness that is commanded by an invisible boss-being to be sent to an mysteriously located hell-place for not keeping in line with a book that was inspired and supposed the work of said invisible boss-being?

What's more likely?

That some imaginary boss-being really keeps up with everyone on earth and made a place to torture them if they are bad in his opinion?

That some people wanted to control many people by putting all kinds of notions in their heads, and then use this fear to make them do whatever they want them to do?

Or of these two which is more likely?

Imaginary boss-beings are really good at controlling people, since those with a direct line to the imaginary boss-being can then tell others what boss-being has said to do.

That some people would just dream up what they want people to do, and then lie to them saying that boss-being said do what I'm telling you or boss-being will get all pissy and burn your ass.

I Believed

Yeah I mean I believed in hell. As I was testing my assumptions that I got from childhood and carried on believing for many years. The hell belief pretty much collapsed with a lot of other notions. I can understand why those believing in imaginary places, that no one can really be sent to, would want to protect their family and friends from it. But, it's just a cycle of ignorance as I see it now? If people can't learn to think for themselves I guess it will just go on as long as it's believed, and the whole idea of it can be taught to people who are gullible enough to believe it?

A Great Con

Maybe it's one on the biggest con's ever sold, lots of church's would be covered and lined throughout inside with cobwebs or just eventually torn down and scrapped if enough people believed as I do now. So I guess what I just said here would really piss off a lot of clergymen who get their paychecks off of a fear of hell. Safe to say their jobs are probably not in jeopardy from what I've seen, nor what I've just said. Oh well. :huh:

- drift

[makebate dags]

I'm more scared of not existing one day than hell.

Why not join the transhumanist movement? There are a bunch of folks who instead of just being scared of not existing one day are trying to figure out how to become immortal through technology or something like that.

:cool:

Might not work, but they seem to be having a good time with it? Just a thought.

- drift

[Atheos]

The thought of going to sleep and never waking up raises a primal fear in most of us, but without that instinctive fear we wouldn't be here. Call it the "survival instinct", whatever. Any potential ancestors of ours that did not posess a survival instinct died a long time ago through the same selective pressures that claimed the lives of those who were born with slow reflexes, insufficient stamina, lack of sex drive, etc.

Something as fundamental as the "survival instinct" is a big motivator, and it drives this morbid fear of "not existing". The only cures I know for it are "beer" and "acceptance".

-Atheos

[johntheapostate]

Just thought I would post to tell everyone that I am reading and do appreciate all your posts

[Atheos]

Well the rest of us are posting and do appreciate all your reading. :D

-Atheos

[nihilist]

z500 talked about something interesting and that is directly related to all the concepts about an after-life: the fear of not being here. Most men are not strong enough to bear the simple thought. But we must remember that when we die we won't be at all !!!. We won't feel sad, we won't feel good, we simply won't be!! So, it is uselees to be afraid of death and to be afraid of not being here.

What we can't bear is thinking of not seeing the people we love, the things we love, the places that are special to us. We can't think of not being here, cause this is unconceivable. Our thoughts are guided by the fact that we exist, so, it's impossible to think of not being here.

But I think this fear, as well as the cruel fear of hell, can make a person very unhappy. We ought to be strong to bear the fact that we'll die sooner or later. There's no option.

Nihilist, a proud atheist

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

[spicy]

You’ve undoubtedly heard the Christian joke about the dead atheist—“all dressed up and nowhere to go�. The concept of nonexistence (“nowhere�) is preferable to the concept of hell. If I fear that hell awaits me it makes death something to be feared, whereas if I can accept that I will simply no longer exist, death is nothing to fear. The scary thing is not knowing for sure what does happen when we die.
I think that it is interesting that many people who believe in heaven, and believe that they are going there when they die, still are afraid of death and go to a lot of trouble to prolong their life. Why is that? It seems counter-intuitive to me. If I really thought that when I died I would go to heaven, I would not worry about my health because I would not fear illness and death. Why prolong life in this world when heaven awaits you? :confused:

[Philippe*]

You’ve undoubtedly heard the Christian joke about the dead atheist—“all dressed up and nowhere to go�. The concept of nonexistence (“nowhere�) is preferable to the concept of hell. If I fear that hell awaits me it makes death something to be feared, whereas if I can accept that I will simply no longer exist, death is nothing to fear. The scary thing is not knowing for sure what does happen when we die.
I think that it is interesting that many people who believe in heaven, and believe that they are going there when they die, still are afraid of death and go to a lot of trouble to prolong their life. Why is that? It seems counter-intuitive to me. If I really thought that when I died I would go to heaven, I would not worry about my health because I would not fear illness and death. Why prolong life in this world when heaven awaits you? :confused:

I can tell you that in the past in Europe catholics believed that those who had committed suicide were damned, it was forbidden to burry them in a decent grave, they were thrown in the mass grave without ceremony. The good old time...when the Church ruled this world.

Philippe

[spicy]

I can tell you that in the past in Europe catholics believed that those who had committed suicide were damned, it was forbidden to burry them in a decent grave, they were thrown in the mass grave without ceremony. The good old time...when the Church ruled this world.

Philippe

I didn't mean that Christians should want to commit suicide in order to get to heaven sooner, since that is proscribed by the Bible. And for good reason--think of what would happen to the Christian population if suicide was condoned. Convert to Christianity, kill yourself, and off you go to heaven. :angel: That would put a huge damper on the spread of Christianity, wouldn't it? Sometimes a religious cult, like the Ugandan Doomsday cult or the Jonestown cult, commits mass suicide but I don’t think that their reason for suicide is to get to heaven quicker. Although they apparently believe that they will end up in some kind of paradise, their end seems to be motivated (and hastened) by legal or social problems and is a collective act that makes a radical statement to society.
By damning suicides to hell Christianity keeps its members around to evangelize. I suppose that is why Christians rationalize prolonging their lives, so that they can be here longer to spread the word and try to save others from hell. It saves having to admit that you are afraid to die even though you profess to believe in heaven. Pretty slick.
I'm not so sure that the Church doesn't still rule this world, Philippe. Why do you think it no longer does?

[Stout Drinker]

I used to have a fear of Hell but that is long gone. It doesn't register at all with me. It is theoretically possible for me to lapse back to christianity. I don't think it will happen but its possible. However I don't see myself going back to believing in Hell and an eternal punishment. It is just too absurd.

I don't think that Christians rule the world. Christianity was at its most powerful in medieval europe. Even officially christian nations like Sweden are now quite secular.

The closest country is being a christian is maybe the US but look at our cultrual landscape. On TV shows and movies, christians at least fundamentalist ones are shown with derison and shown as hypocrites. You would be hard pressed to name some christian entertainment or culture or positive depictions of evangelicals.

Politically one has to be religious to be elected to a major office but its frequently just as a pro forma nod. One can go through life and not be noticed if they never attend church and just live their lives.

[Philippe*]

I didn't mean that Christians should want to commit suicide in order to get to heaven sooner, since that is proscribed by the Bible. And for good reason--think of what would happen to the Christian population if suicide was condoned. Convert to Christianity, kill yourself, and off you go to heaven. :angel: That would put a huge damper on the spread of Christianity, wouldn't it? Sometimes a religious cult, like the Ugandan Doomsday cult or the Jonestown cult, commits mass suicide but I don’t think that their reason for suicide is to get to heaven quicker. Although they apparently believe that they will end up in some kind of paradise, their end seems to be motivated (and hastened) by legal or social problems and is a collective act that makes a radical statement to society.
By damning suicides to hell Christianity keeps its members around to evangelize. I suppose that is why Christians rationalize prolonging their lives, so that they can be here longer to spread the word and try to save others from hell. It saves having to admit that you are afraid to die even though you profess to believe in heaven. Pretty slick.
I'm not so sure that the Church doesn't still rule this world, Philippe. Why do you think it no longer does?

I speak of the RCC and its orthodox counterpart to some extant, but the RCC has lost its power in Europe, it began with the Reformation. In the old Europe religion was very bound to politics, if you rejected royality, you often rejected religion too. In the Bible it is said to obey the civilian authorities and to honour the king, since all authorities come from God :huh: . When the pope had spoken, everybody should have had to obey, he put his grain of salt everywhere. Now many media turn him into a fool over here. But on the other hand, that's true that the RCC still has a major role in some countries in Africa and South America I believe. And with these evangelical conservative christians at the head of USA, we can still say religious fundies are ruling the world.

Philippe

[spicy]

I speak of the RCC and its orthodox counterpart to some extant, but the RCC has lost its power in Europe, it began with the Reformation. In the old Europe religion was very bound to politics, if you rejected royality, you often rejected religion too. In the Bible it is said to obey the civilian authorities and to honour the king, since all authorities come from God :huh: . When the pope had spoken, everybody should have had to obey, he put his grain of salt everywhere. Now many media turn him into a fool over here. But on the other hand, that's true that the RCC still has a major role in some countries in Africa and South America I believe. And with these evangelical conservative christians at the head of USA, we can still say religious fundies are ruling the world.

Philippe

I appreciate your answer. I guess I was using Church in the broader sense, not just RCC but the Christian religions collectively. Living in the USA these days with religion and politics so intertwined, and seeing the mounting evangelical movement being put forth, I worry about the influence of Christianity on the world. If the Christian objective were world peace I would not be so alarmed, but the objective appears instead to be world Christianity at all costs. :(

[Random]

I'm more scared of not existing one day than hell.

Ah, now, that doesn't bother me. I'm scared of dying in agony, I'm scared of a slow and painful decline, I'm scared of the effect my death would have on the people who care about me, and I'm scared of leaving something important unfinished. Actually being dead doesn't bother me at all. There will be no me to be bothered.

I do sometimes worry about what the process of dying will feel like, though. Is there really such a thing as a painless death? Might the last few seconds of physical decay stretch out into a subjective eternity, horribly aware of my body failing around me? Might some vestige of consciousness linger on as the doctors start harvesting my organs, some primitive reptile-mind just aware enough to be in pain?

And yes, I have been reading far too much Edgar Allen Poe :p

Hell, on the other hand, just annoys me. It's a concept made up by someone with no sense of empathy or proportion, and it's really screwed up an awful lot of otherwise decent people. If someone tells me I'm going to hell, I don't get worried, I get insulted; this person has, in effect, said that they think I'm so evil that no amount of punishment could possibly be too much.

Mind you, I was raised agnostic.

[johntheapostate]

I do sometimes worry about what the process of dying will feel like, though. Is there really such a thing as a painless death? Might the last few seconds of physical decay stretch out into a subjective eternity, horribly aware of my body failing around me? Might some vestige of consciousness linger on as the doctors start harvesting my organs, some primitive reptile-mind just aware enough to be in pain?

I to have had some anxious moments contemplating the last moments of life. I remember feeling a pang of anxiety after watching a show in which it was stated that certain cells in the brain remain alive for days after the body has expired.

[Random]

I to have had some anxious moments contemplating the last moments of life. I remember feeling a pang of anxiety after watching a show in which it was stated that certain cells in the brain remain alive for days after the body has expired.

Eurgh. Conscious, and trapped in a rotting corpse?! What a truly horrible idea. Ever read "The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar"? Here's hoping that those cells will be too few and too separated to create anything remotely resembling sentience.

I am slightly reassured by accounts of NDEs; I'm fairly sure they're hallucinations, but they do seem to be mostly pleasant ones. Having a euphoric and beautiful trip during your last moments of consciousness would not be a bad way to go out.

[Howay the Toon]

I had a mild heart scare a while back. Turned out to be nothing much but it naturally set me thinking about death and such.

It turned out that, for me, my biggest emotion was not fear but regret at not seeing how stuff turned out. It was rather like (albeit admittedly rather stronger :) ) the regret at missing the final episode of a good TV Serial.

[spicy]

Ah, now, that doesn't bother me. I'm scared of dying in agony, I'm scared of a slow and painful decline, I'm scared of the effect my death would have on the people who care about me, and I'm scared of leaving something important unfinished. Actually being dead doesn't bother me at all. There will be no me to be bothered.


Well said. That pretty much sums up how I feel. It would be comforting to be assured a peaceful, pain-free death. Or if not pain-free, at least have the pain be of a very short duration. Unfortunately the only way I know to be totally assured of a relatively pain-free death is via euthanasia.

The human fear of eternal torture and pain is what makes the concept of hell so powerful for many people. It angers me that a religion would play on this fear to coerce people into believing that a god can protect them from such a fate if they worship the god and do all they can to convince other people to do the same. :mad:

[LSHAFC2004]

Certainly yes. Was a christian, converted to atheism but for a spell still feared hell. No more though. Do you really think our SOUL will burn in UNQUENTICHABLE FIRE under the EARTH for ETERNITY? no. Its not logical, pratical,scientific and if its true, then god aint all lovin if he sends us there just for unbelife in something that contracicts nature, and only reveals itself in a book full of absurdties, contractictions, from over 2000 years ago. :)

But we may be wrong.........Dont thinks so, but lets hope so.........

:)

[Rifleman]

The question of hell was, somewhat paradoxically, both a major reason for my deconversion and probably the main obstacle I've had to overcome in order to deconvert.

I was never really tormented by thoughts of hell as a child. My parents, Sunday School, and even the Catholic Church I attended weekly almost never even mentioned hell. I'd always assumed that I would go to heaven when I died, just like all the other "good Christians." But as I grew a bit older and became more compassionate and empathetic, I began to feel sorry for those who would end up in hell. How can any human being possibly deserve such a terrible fate? I'd wonder. Reading the Bible and commentaries did not do much to help me answer that and similar questions. In fact, reading the Bible only served to make me increasingly angry at God for his frightful and unnecessary cruelty.

I won't bore everyone with all the details of my years-long process of deconversion, as I'm sure others have told similar stories in a more interesting fashion than I could. But one historical quote in particular really stuck in my mind toward the end of my journey toward agnosticism. That quote is from the ancient Roman historian Polybius. Note that the following was written in 130 B.C. -- well before the advent of Christianity and its conception of hell:

But among the most useful institutions, that demonstrate the superior excellence of the Roman government, the most considerable perhaps is the opinion that the people are taught to hold concerning the gods: and that, which other men regard as an object of disgrace, appears in my judgment to be the very thing by which this republic chiefly is sustained. I mean, superstition: which is impressed with all its terrors; and influences both private and public actions of the citizens, and the public administration also of the state, in a degree that can scarcely be exceeded. This may appear astonishing to many. To me it is evident, that this contrivance was at first adopted for the sake of the multitude. For if it were possible that a state could be composed of wise men only, there would be no need, perhaps, of any such invention. But as the people universally are fickle and inconsistent, filled with irregular desires, too precipitate in there passions, and prone to violence; there is no way left to restrain them, but by dread of things unseen, and by the pageantry of terrifying fiction. The ancients, therefore, acted not absurdedly, nor without good reason, when they inculcated the notions concerning the gods, and the belief of infernal punishments; but much more those of the present age are to be charged with rashness and absurdity, in endeavoring to extirpate these opinions.

To those who still have anxiety about hell, it's also worth pointing out that in the fundamental ancient Hebrew religious text -- the Torah -- God never mentions hell as punishment for sin. He certainly didn't mention it to the Israelites when he supposedly gave them the Law. Why not? Because the authors of the Old Testament had no concept of hell back then! The only thing they had to hold over peoples' heads was the threat of temporal punishment. To make the threat a little harsher, the offspring of sinners were threatened with punishment as well. Hell took the place of that threat later on, and the concept probably came from Roman paganism (as suggested by Polybius).

[sakrilege]

I was never really tormented by thoughts of hell as a child. My parents, Sunday School, and even the Catholic Church I attended weekly almost never even mentioned hell. For one thing, the Catholics have purgatory to deal with those who aren't perfect enough to get into heaven but weren't bad enough to suffer for eternity.

I won't bore everyone with all the details of my years-long process of deconversion, as I'm sure others have told similar stories in a more interesting fashion than I could.
We have the Atheists' Testimony (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=35947) thread to collect all those stories, feel free to add your own.

[johntheapostate]

The topic of hell came up in another thread and it seemed to me that what I had posted there was also applicable here. So here it is.

When I stopped believing, it seemed as if the anger I had for god which I had worked hard to suppress for fear of hell transferred over to the institution of Christianity itself.

Of course the institution of Christianity represented mostly by my father was not going to let go of me without a struggle.

In defense of my non belief, I became adept at finding the inconsistencies and contradiction that are contained in the Bible One of my brothers who had been the least religious in our family followed my example and renounced the faith but the others will no longer debate the Bible or faith under any circumstances and it has been declared off limits at family gatherings.

On a more weird note, when I was a Christian I had some obsessive compulsive thing going. Sometimes when I went to bed I would be laying there thinking and the suppressed hate that I had for god would manifest itself in blasphemous thoughts linking god with obscene words. At that point I would have to spend hours tossing and turning and using every last ounce of my willpower to suppress these thoughts all the time dealing with a profound fear that If god struck me down that instant I would be going straight to hell.

When I had shed the last vestige of belief these thoughts vanished. I suppose the Christian would explain it by saying I had been fighting the devil and when he won he stopped tormenting me. :D

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[quester]

I posted to a previous thread about fear of Hell. Since then I've had a few more thoughts on the subject. I realized that the idea of Hell comes from the same place as the idea of the earth being created in 6 days 6000 years ago, and the idea that the world will come to an end Real Soon Now. I don't believe the last two things at all. Why should I believe that there's a hell? Now I could say that the 6000-year-old earth has been well demolished by science, and the idea of an imminent apocalypse has lost what credibility it ever had when the predicted date of the end of the world kept coming, and nothing happened. But nothing has absolutely disproved hell....

Actually I think the most effective argument to me was the statement that abusers use predictions of disaster to keep their victims from leaving them. That's all hell is, a threat with no substance to keep people in line.

[Bill Mutz]

I was raised in a very fundamentalist home. The fear of hell was implanted young and often.

I live in a conservative area and I became an atheist without the support of any non believing friends, family, literature or web sites.

In fact my unbelief was challanged repeatadly untill I became much more informed with the text of the bible than my family members at which point they refused to debate the bible under any curcumstances.

I think they became more concerned that they would be deconverted than there concern over my eternal destiny.

The problem was that from time to time I would find myself feeling a sense of anxiety and thinking about hell. In my rational mind I had no doubts that the bible was an absurd human invention, yet somewhere in a primitive irational part of my mind the fear of hell that had been imprinted when I was young remained

I am happy to say that over the years this anxiety has subsided to where any mention of hell brings a sense of amusement at the oportunity of another Christian as fair game for debate.

I am just wondering if there are any ex Christians who had the same experiance or if they where able to dislodge the fear of hell in a relitivly short time.I refuse to have anything to do with a deity who wouldn't kick my ass for reconverting based on anxiety over the Hell question.

[DudeAlmighty]

I am afraid of hell, but that is why I resist.

If God loved me and wanted me to serve Him, why would he need to threaten me?

That is the power of religion: It scares people into submission. I mean come on, a God who can't even keep His own creations in check without toasting massive quantities of them?

That and how many people who have had near-death experiences have reported seeing Hell? :devil2:

[Legend]

Fear is still there but I don't care that much anymore...

Even if hell, existed... the deity that would want to throw me into an eternity of torture is going to expect a fight. :devil3:

I won't go down easy.

And even if I am thrown into hell... after an innumerable number of years have passed (worst case scenario), I'd probably be used to all the pain.

Then I'm going to start planning on escaping and fighting for my soul.

I don't care if it is against all odds... I WILL PREVAILLLLLL :devil1:

So prepare yourself almighty one... (If you are out there)

Let's see what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object....

[johntheapostate]

I wrote this for a different thread, but I thought it would also be applicable here.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My father considered it his duty to win me back to the faith till the day he died. I remember getting frustrated during one of our debates and I finally asked him if he would truly be happy in heaven while I suffered in hell. His answer is a reflection of how selfish Christian belief is. He said that if I ended up in hell, he would not remember me because the Bible assured him that he would experience perfect happiness in heaven.

If one is to consider his theory critically by the time his memory was stripped of anything that might cause him grief and necessarily of any information that he could relay to someone else there in heaven that would cause them grief, times all the residents of heaven, he would be left with zero memory. In that case his soul may make it to heaven but his identity surely would not.

[inner-peace]

No I'm just hoping its as hot as the fundies say it is.... :rolling:

[inner-peace]

I wrote this for a different thread, but I thought it would also be applicable here.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My father considered it his duty to win me back to the faith till the day he died. I remember getting frustrated during one of our debates and I finally asked him if he would truly be happy in heaven while I suffered in hell. His answer is a reflection of how selfish Christian belief is. He said that if I ended up in hell, he would not remember me because the Bible assured him that he would experience perfect happiness in heaven.

If one is to consider his theory critically by the time his memory was stripped of anything that might cause him grief and necessarily of any information that he could relay to someone else there in heaven that would cause them grief, times all the residents of heaven, he would be left with zero memory. In that case his soul may make it to heaven but his identity surely would not.



That is really sad... The way he describes it, it makes it seem like you won't even really be a human anymore.... eternal happines... that is not possible for a real human being(not that i'm aware of anyway)

[boundlesslife]

That is really sad... The way he describes it, it makes it seem like you won't even really be a human anymore.... eternal happines... that is not possible for a real human being(not that i'm aware of anyway)

That's only a problem if you *think* about it. But, in the process of clinging to an idea like, "God will make me happy no matter what!" the important thing is not to think about it, but to *believe* it!

Having already cast away the best of their higher thinking centers and having committed themselves to the thoughtless recitation of chaotic dogmas, true believers are able to manifest something like the very complex behavior of a killer whale in the body of an ape, doing what it has been trained to do (pray and recite scripture thoughtlessly, while trying to sound "intelligent and well informed" at the same time).

If we had an audience of people as (we hope) they'll be several hundred years from now, such a performance should be able to draw large crowds. They would marvel that the human mind could be so corrupted and enslaved as to not just willingly, but enthusastically, mouth dogma that makes no sense whatever. But no time machines are available. Those of the future will have only the archives such as the postings that appear on these boards, by fundamentalists, as material for study.

And study they will. Students of the vulnerabilities of the human mind at those future times, will pour over the archives of religion endlessly, especially those of our current day, where creationists manage to bury their heads in the sand in such creative ways that those in the future will find it mind boggling to see how boggled a mind can beccome, by means of the simple arguments provided by evangelists of today.

Such students will meticulously classify these multitudes of mental abberations as carefully as current day archeologists sort through the ruins of ancient civilizations, putting together the shards of pots and jugs that were far more useful than the fundamentalist dogmas of either their day or ours. In the end, perhaps they will discover some kind of self-hypnotic dogma-consumption center in our R (reptilian) Complex, such as Carl Sagan refers to so frequently in the "Cosmos" video series.

It is tragic for those who have abandoned and escaped from such states of mind to see that their parents are inextricably mired in them, and have no means of helping them.

[Legend]

Originally Posted by Z500
I'm more scared of not existing one day than hell.

Really?

I'm more scared of immortality than oblivion.

Fact of the matter is... I'm more scared of an immortal life in heaven than oblivion.

Its interesting to note that while my greatest fear is immortality; my greatest desire is for oblivion.

[johntheapostate]

Here is a bit of sarcasm I wrote for another thread.

Christians should appreciate us for the service that we will provide them in the afterlife. For in witnessing the eternal torment of us reprobate, the elect will be brought to a full comprehension of the glory of god. And in comparison to the never ending agony of us atheists, the fortunate circumstance of the elect will bring them to a full awareness of god's mercy to them who were not chosen by any merit in themselves, but at the good pleasure of their maker. And with this knowledge they will experience a full measure of gratitude, and together with the screams of us who will be in agony, they will lift their voices in a never ending tribute to the creator of heaven and earth. :D

[holy_cow]

One time, when I was smoking a joint and watching Event Horizon, I was vaguely disturbed by "hell." But I feel better already. No major conversions scheduled for any time soon.

[zakatov]

I grew up in a non-religious family, so I was never indoctrinated with the fear of hell. But a few years ago, I was watching a program on TLC about near-death experiences. One of the segments that really had an effect on me was about a former atheist named Howard Storm (http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/storm.htm) He had a terrifying NDE that sent him to hell. Storm described hell as a dark place with thousands of demons that surround and devour you. His experience was so powerful that he became a born again Xtian and joined the ministry.

I then spent alot of time researching NDE’s and read about a case that was a sharp contrast to Howard Storm’s. The famous atheist philosopher, A.J Ayer, had his own brush with death which did not involve hell(or Jesus) at all! So, this caused me much confusion. Why would some atheists go to hell and others go to heaven? Unless of course, NDE’s are nothing more than products of the human brain.........

NDEs ARE nothing more that products of our brains. Consider this: people see talking animals, talking plants, they see jesus, buddha and uncle sam. The mere fact that their experiences reflect their age, culture and background leaves no doubt in my mind that our brain can do weird things under stress.

[JGL53]

I am not afraid of hell. That idea is clearly imaginary. However, I am afraid, in the sense of being apprehensive and leery, of people who believe in the reality of hell. I can't help believing there is something seriously wrong with such people, even though they seem, most of the time, to be as normal as the rest of us.

Still, it seems a particularly superstitious, bizarre and retarded idea - I mean, even with all the intense indoctrination I underwent as a child and teenager, by the time I was about 15 or 16 years old I had figured out that hell just made no sense whatsoever .

I can understand the very common belief in souls and life after death, even though I reject such ideas for various reasons. But - the idea of hell - that is so very, very fucked up, I have little sympathy or respect for anyone's belief in such a ridiculous idea. There really is no excuse for it.

[Little Sister]

By the time I was baptised, at 11 years old, I was acknowledging my doubts. As a young teen, I read a lot of Richard Bach. I knew that I didn't believe in the xian god by the time I was a legal adult, and I started looking into other religions before my 20's.
But yeah... Fundie Father, church every Sunday. Tracts. Lotsa hell in my youth to consider. And I scared myself a few times, just as I was getting my... er agnostic and sometimes athiest training wheels, I would occasionally meet someone who was SO!! devout. The kind that believed that bushmen in the wilderness of undiscovered and unconverted civilization were going to hell, and how sad it was for them.
Anyway, I was young and they scared me bad. I kept coming back to that in my 20's. For me, bitterness took over the fear. God wasn't around when I needed him most. The church had Dad when I needed him most. I thought that god was a sadist, and decided that if I'd rather burn than say yessir to his bullshit.
Once in a long while It'll creep up- not quite a full fear of hell, more like a notion. A near-fear, if you will. Maybe I'll feel that way on occasion for the rest of my life. There's no logical reason for it, so you can only counter it with an equally illogical reaction. I just usually think to myself: Hey. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'll burn. "I'm going to hell in a bucket, baby. But at least I'm enjoying the ride." :devil3:
Then I thank Jerry Garcia, and go shopping. :cool:

[metu vacuus]

One time, when I was smoking a joint and watching Event Horizon, I was vaguely disturbed by "hell." But I feel better already. No major conversions scheduled for any time soon.

Yep, Sam Neill at his most diabolical. I love that movie. :devil1:

I was afraid of Hell for a long time, but that was a good reason to start questioning it!

Anyways, to be honest, I have more anger over Hell now than fear. That something as necessary as a healthy sense of fear and be so warped and twisted by such an evil concept as Hell. We can forget what fear really means, and it becomes the very thing that holds us back, instead of being one of many important parts of what it means to be human. That's the problem with absolutizing any emotion or state, really. It's really very comparable to non-existence anyways, from a certain perspective. (Mine really)

So, to me, Hell and Heaven are so transcendent of anything that I've ever experienced, that it is really pointless to even give things like that any more thought than what is deserved. The same with "ultimate truth", God, etc etc. At the very best, such things can only be assumed, and can never really reach the full (fake) potential of something that is supposed to be "universal."

Eternal life writes checks it's can't cash.

Just my two cents,

CX1

[inner-peace]

no because I have a different Idea on hell ..... which does not involve physical pain at all.... and one where you are not even aware of the "mental" pain

[spicy]

no because I have a different Idea on hell ..... which does not involve physical pain at all.... and one where you are not even aware of the "mental" pain

Okay, I'll bite--what is your idea of a painless hell? :huh:

ginger

[GoodLittleAtheist]

Not since I was a child. Even then I thought heaven and hell was a weird idea. Why could a god-fearing xian murder someone, repent at the 11th hour and end up in heaven while an unbaptized baby would be sent to hell for something they never did?

And now that I don't believe, it pretty much never crosses my mind except for the conclusion I came to a long time ago: If God were to exist (a pretty big if...) and he can't see that being a decent person is more important than believing in His existence, then I really want no part of heaven anyway.

Luckily there ain't no chance in hell that hell exists. :devil1:

Then there are those that say hell is being parted from God for all time. In that case, well, it seems to be working for me so far....

[Capn_Danger]

Not since I was a child. Even then I thought heaven and hell was a weird idea. Why could a god-fearing xian murder someone, repent at the 11th hour and end up in heaven while an unbaptized baby would be sent to hell for something they never did?

And now that I don't believe, it pretty much never crosses my mind except for the conclusion I came to a long time ago: If God were to exist (a pretty big if...) and he can't see that being a decent person is more important than believing in His existence, then I really want no part of heaven anyway.

...

Then there are those that say hell is being parted from God for all time. In that case, well, it seems to be working for me so far....

I was thinking something along the same lines. I have no way of knowing if there even is a god, much less what the hell he/she/it wants me to do. If he's going to punish me for not guessing the right faith, then I don't want to be around someone like that.

Hell, if satan is real, I bet he just gets a bad rap. God pins all the crap we humans come up with on him, when its likely that all old scratch wants is for us is just to enjoy ourselves. That's probably why he got booted out of the sky-daddy's big castle, he just wanted to spice up the place a bit. :devil3:

Jesus Christ, when I think of it like that, I want to go to hell! I bet they have some sweet ass parties there, and no one has to worry about hangovers, STDs, or religious nutjobs preaching at 'em for enjoying their afterlife.
:devil2: