Islam, mountains, and Earth's smooth rotation

[x-ray vision]

According to this (http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Shabir-Ally/science13.htm) web page, the Qur'an makes the following statements about mountains:

The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:31, Middle Meccan,
``And We have set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should
shake with them...''

The Bee (Al-Nahl) 16:15, Late Meccan,
``And He has cast onto the earth firm mountains lest it should
shake with you...''

Luqman 31:10, Late Meccan, ``He has created the heavens without
supports that you can see, and has cast onto the earth firm
mountains lest it should shake with you..''

The News (Al-Naba') 78:6-7, Early Meccan,
``Have We not made the earth an expanse, and the mountains as
stakes.''(``as those used to anchor a tent in the ground'' -
Bucaille p182.)

The Overwhelming (Al-Ghashiya) 88:17,19, Early Meccan,
``Do they (the unbelievers) not look...at the mountains, how they
have been pitched (like a tent)'' (Translation Bucaille p 181)

It seems that Allah is claiming he made mountains to keep the Earth from shaking.

According to the Muslim apologist on the above linked web page:
without mountains the revolutional movement of
earth around its axis would'nt be "smoth", and it would "shake"
as n the case of a nonhomogeneous roulette. when earth was in
its original liquid state, these mountains appeared in exactly
right places (according to laws of physics, fluid dynamics, if
we want to be accurate) to prevent it "shaking" (as described
above). so these mountains are there to make the earth an overall
"homogeneous" object to be able to have a smoth (non "shaky")
revoloution around its axis. this is an undisputeable "fact",
scientifical fact, now, and i can provide you with exact mathematical
and physical explanations in this regard.
as a further explanation, one can observe the revoloutional movement
of asteroids. they have never been in liquid state so the "mountains"
on their surface do not adjust this rotational movement and
therefore thier spinning is "shaky". that would cause very strong
and wild, at the same time periodical, "tides" that makes living or
even sticking to the ground on them so hard, if not impossible!
this fact has nothing to do with earthquakes!

It seems he is claiming that mountains act like the weights on an automobile's wheel. The mountains are just the right size and weight to keep a smooth rotation. He claims that this is a scientific fact. Is it?

[Agemegos]

It seems he is claiming that mountains act like the weights on an automobile's wheel. The mountains are just the right size and weight to keep a smooth rotation. He claims that this is a scientific fact. Is it?

No, it is pure bollocks.

The car wheel needs wheel weights to ensure that it is balanced on its axle. Basically, they adjust the wheel's centre of gravity and axis of minimum moment to coincide with the axis that the axle and bearings force it to rotate around.

The Earth rotates freely, it is not fixed to an axle. So no issue arises of it rotating around an axis that does not pass through its centre of mass and minimise its moment of inertia.

[Mike Rosoft]

I concur: this claim is bogus. The highest mountain on the Earth measures less than 9 kilometers. The lowest point in the Earth's seas is 11 kilometers deep. Compared with the radius of the Earth (more than 6000 kilometers, i.e. 300 times more), is it surprising that they have no signifcant effect on the Earth's rotation?


Mike Rosoft

[Plognark]

Um, yep, it's a load of crap.

[Yggdrasill]

Complete fabrication.

He's even wrong about the asteroids, they spin perfectly around their axis.

"tides"??? WTF.

[Capn_Danger]

It seems he is claiming that mountains act like the weights on an automobile's wheel. The mountains are just the right size and weight to keep a smooth rotation. He claims that this is a scientific fact. Is it?

Holy Shi-ite! That's grade "A" quackery. An object doesn't need any symmetry for a "smooth" rotation, a spinning object (of any shape) will spin around it's center of mass indefinitely, without variation, unless acted on by some outside force. The earth isn't even "homogenous" in the sense he describes it anyways- land masses and oceans have different densities. Not that it matters...

I have a hard time believing that anyone who claims to be able to provide "mathematical and physical explanations" for such a theory is honest, much less correct.

[Dhaeron]

It seems he is claiming that mountains act like the weights on an automobile's wheel. The mountains are just the right size and weight to keep a smooth rotation. He claims that this is a scientific fact. Is it?when earth was in
its original liquid state, these mountains appeared in exactly
right places (according to laws of physics, fluid dynamics, if
we want to be accurate) to prevent it "shaking" (as described
above).

Heck, even the statement about the formation of mountains is complete bullshit. And the rest is worse.

[Shake]

Hmmm ... are not earthquakes an example of the Earth "shaking"? Guess those mountains aren't doing their jobs.

And what about Mt. St. Helens? When it erupted, it lost about 1/3 of its mass.

Also, it's not like if the Earth were smooth it would change things any. It's not like a rotating tire, or ball even, which would have to worry about air resistance. The Earth drags the atmosphere along with its rotation.

Seriously, there's so much wrong with that that I doubt it needs more discussion.

[Cynthia of Syracuse]

Off to S&S.

[TomboyMom]

I've heard--don't know whether this is true--that if the earth were the size of a billiard ball it would be as smooth as one.
Also the mountains and even the land masses move are constantly moving, so how could they be in the exact right places? Or don't Muslims believe in plate techtonics?

[x-ray vision]

Can I have some help on another message board?

http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49210


I recently started this thread ( I am Martini ). The use of pseudoscience to defend religion is killing me.

[Muan]

This may or may not help. This links refers to mountains in the Koran.

http://faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5606

[x-ray vision]

A poster on that message board is making this claim based on this (http://dl.ccc.cccd.edu/classes/telecourses/geology100/IntroLecture2.htm) web page:
This diagram shows how blocks of wood floating on water can be compared to blocks of crust floating on the mantle. Like an iceberg floating in the water, only a small part of the wooden block shows above the surface.
The parts of the crust do the same when floating on the mantle. Tall land masses like mountains have huge roots pushing down into the mantle to stabilize them. The taller the mountains the deeper the roots push into the mantle. Valleys on land and oceanic trenches at sea have the most shallow roots

It seems he is saying that the mountains stabilize the land masses. Is this true? I wasn't sure if the article was saying that or saying that the mountains stabilize themselves. Not that it should matter because either way the Qur'an is claiming that mountains stop the Earth from shaking.

[Muan]

And here are two attempts are debunking the argument

Quote:
Originally Posted
In Geology, the phenomenon of ‘folding’ is a recently discovered fact. Folding is responsible for the formation of mountain ranges. The earth’s crust, on which we live, is like a solid shell, while the deeper layers are hot and fluid, and thus inhospitable to any form of life. It is also known that the stability of the mountains is linked to the phenomenon of folding, for it was the folds that were to provide foundations for the reliefs that constitute the mountains. Geologists tell us that the radius of the Earth is about 3,750 miles and the crust on which we live is very thin, ranging between 1 to 30 miles.



Note how the Qur'aan never gives such details? Why not, if it's so keen on science?


Quote:
Since the crust is thin, it has a high possibility of shaking. Mountains act like stakes or tent pegs that hold the earth’s crust and give it stability.



This is total malarkey. Mountains, if anything, are evidence of the instability of the earth's surface, as they are evidence of "faulting", folding, uplift, vulcanism, or other geological forces, all evidences of the instability of the earth's surface. And note that mountainous regions are among the most, if not the most, earthquake-prone regions of the earth's surface.

Mountains don't "hold the earth's crust and give it stability". That's utter nonsense.


Quote:
The Qur’aan contains exactly such a description in the following verse: "Have We not made The earth as a wide Expanse, And the mountains as pegs?" [Al-Qur’aan 78:6-7]



That's not exactly what I'd call "exactly such a description" as the one you gave above.


Quote:
The word awtad means stakes or pegs (like those used to anchor a tent); they are the deep foundations of geological folds. A book named ‘Earth’ is considered as a basic reference textbook on geology in many universities around the world. One of the authors of this book is Frank Press, who was the President of the Academy of Sciences in the USA for 12 years and was the Science Advisor to former US President Jimmy Carter. In this book he illustrates the mountain in a wedge-shape and the mountain itself as a small part of the whole, whose root is deeply entrenched in the ground. [Earth, Press and Siever, p. 435. Also see Earth Science, Tarbuck and Lutgens, p. 157] According to Dr. Press, the mountains play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth.



The "greatest" mountain range on the earth is the Himalayan Range. They are uplift mountains, caused by the collision of the Indian subcontinent with the Asian land mass. They have nothing to do at all with "playing an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth". They are evidence of the instability of the earth's crust.


Quote:
The Qur’aan clearly mentions the function of the mountains in preventing the earth from shaking: "And We have set on the earth Mountains standing firm, Lest it should shake with them." [Al-Qur’aan 21:31]



Again, many mountain ranges are among the most seismically active regions on earth. All that folding and what-not results in some rather shaky behavior.


Quote:
The Qur’aanic descriptions are in perfect agreement with modern geological data.



Apparently not.


Quote:
The surface of the earth is broken into many rigid plates that are about 100 km in thickness. These plates float on a partially molten region called aesthenosphere. Mountain formations occur at the boundary of the plates. The earth’s crust is 5 km thick below oceans, about 35 km thick below flat continental surfaces and almost 80 km thick below great mountain ranges. These are the strong foundations on which mountains stand. The Qur’aan also speaks about the strong mountain foundations in the following verse: "And the mountains Hath He firmly fixed." [Al-Qur’aan 79:32] [A similar message is contained in the Qur’an in 88:19, 31:10 and 16:15]



Mountains firmly fixed? Many mountain ranges are geologically active areas, such as the Himalayas (which are still rising) and at least parts of the Rockies (such as the Teton Range, which is still rising). They're not "firmly fixed" at all. Likewise, volcanic ranges, like the Hawaiian Island Chain, are definitely not "firmly fixed", and also don't fit into the "folding" mold that article casts.

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Last edited by Mageth : December 20, 2004 at 07:02 PM.



Quote:
Firstly Geology

IV. GEOLOGY

MOUNTAINS ARE LIKE PEGS (STAKES)

Let me stop you right there. They aren't at all like pegs. Anyway...
Quote:
In Geology, the phenomenon of ‘folding’ is a recently discovered fact. Folding is responsible for the formation of mountain ranges. The earth’s crust, on which we live, is like a solid shell, while the deeper layers are hot and fluid, and thus inhospitable to any form of life. It is also known that the stability of the mountains is linked to the phenomenon of folding, for it was the folds that were to provide foundations for the reliefs that constitute the mountains.

This is just utter nonsense. It even says so on the video (the "against" guy). Mountains are formed by the instability of the earths crust. The folding is evidence for this (continuing) instability and it in no way contributes to stability. Certainly not stopping the earth from shaking as the Qur'an states.


Quote:
Geologists tell us that the radius of the Earth is about 3,750 miles and the crust on which we live is very thin, ranging between 1 to 30 miles. Since the crust is thin, it has a high possibility of shaking.

It's got nothing to do with it's thinness, it's because the separate plates are moving relative to one another.

Quote:
Mountains act like stakes or tent pegs that hold the earth’s crust and give it stability. The Qur’aan contains exactly such a description in the following verse: "Have We not made The earth as a wide Expanse, And the mountains as pegs?" [Al-Qur’aan 78:6-7]

So, we have already established that this is flat out cast-iron, copper bottomed wrong. They do not "hold down the earth". Go and learn some science.


Quote:
The word awtad means stakes or pegs (like those used to anchor a tent); they are the deep foundations of geological folds.

They are not the foundations, they are the folds.
Quote:
A book named ‘Earth’ is considered as a basic reference textbook on geology in many universities around the world. One of the authors of this book is Frank Press, who was the President of the Academy of Sciences in the USA for 12 years and was the Science Advisor to former US President Jimmy Carter.

This is a blatant appeal to authority, one of the better known logical fallacies. Learn about making a valid argument. I don't care what this book I've never heard of says, I care about the facts of geology. If you want to back up an assertion of fact with a specific reference within a book, then that is a different matter.

Quote:
In this book he illustrates the mountain in a wedge-shape and the mountain itself as a small part of the whole, whose root is deeply entrenched in the ground. [Earth, Press and Siever, p. 435. Also see Earth Science, Tarbuck and Lutgens, p. 157] According to Dr. Press, the mountains play an important role in stabilising the crust of the earth.

Never heard of Dr. Press, and I note you aren't using direct referenced quotes here. Quote mining the same out of context, often misattributed quotes, which mysteriously copy themselves all around the internet, is a well know apologist tactic. Give me specific references and direct quotes. Until then I will rely on my knowledge of geology which tells me that mountains certainly do not contribute to stability. How could they stop tectonic plates from moving? Learn some geology.

Quote:
The Qur’aan clearly mentions the function of the mountains in preventing the earth from shaking: "And We have set on the earth Mountains standing firm, Lest it should shake with them." [Al-Qur’aan 21:31]

On which point, as we have established, it is completely wrong.


Quote:
The Qur’aanic descriptions are in perfect agreement with modern geological data.

MOUNTAINS FIRMLY FIXED

The surface of the earth is broken into many rigid plates that are about 100 km in thickness.

You just said the rigid crust was 1-30 miles thick. Which is it?
(I can tell you if you give up - it is in the 80-400km range).
Quote:
These plates float on a partially molten region called aesthenosphere. Mountain formations occur at the boundary of the plates. The earth’s crust is 5 km thick below oceans, about 35 km thick below flat continental surfaces and almost 80 km thick below great mountain ranges.

Wrong.
Quote:
These are the strong foundations on which mountains stand. The Qur’aan also speaks about the strong mountain foundations in the following verse: "And the mountains Hath He firmly fixed." [Al-Qur’aan 79:32] [A similar message is contained in the Qur’an in 88:19, 31:10 and 16:15]

Firstly they are not strong foundations, they are the sites of plate collision and the least seismically stable regions on earth. Secondly the Qur'an is clearly saying the mountains have been stuck like stakes or tent pegs to themselves provide an anchor (the same Arabic word for anchor is actually used at one point) , not to put them atop firm foundations.

So this is really very weak stuff for anyone who knows anything. Stop wasting your time with the Qur'an which is one long self aggrandising threat from god and study some more science. It's much more interesting and it's true!

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Last edited by mirage : December 20, 2004 at 07:13 PM.

[Muan]

As I mentioned above this link is relevant to prof Nagger


http://faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5606

[Dhaeron]

A poster on that message board is making this claim based on this (http://dl.ccc.cccd.edu/classes/telecourses/geology100/IntroLecture2.htm) web page:


It seems he is saying that the mountains stabilize the land masses. Is this true? I wasn't sure if the article was saying that or saying that the mountains stabilize themselves. Not that it should matter because either way the Qur'an is claiming that mountains stop the Earth from shaking.
It is bullshit.
Mountains are created by tectonic movement, and areas where mountains are on the rise (pun intended) are very prone to earthquakes. The landmasses don't need anything to stabilize, and while the crust is thick where mountains are, they don't stabilize anything.
I don't know about your school system, but i learned that in the 6th grade in geography.

[x-ray vision]

So the quote from the community college web-site is wrong? I'm going to have a hell of a time convincing them of that.

[Agemegos]

Mountains are created by tectonic movement, and areas where mountains are on the rise (pun intended) are very prone to earthquakes.

Some are, some not so much. For example, shield volcanoes such as Mauna Loa are not created by tectonic movement, even though it does indirectly influence their location and shape.

[Dhaeron]

So the quote from the community college web-site is wrong? I'm going to have a hell of a time convincing them of that.
While the quote isn't per se wrong, the correlation with the quran is bullshit.
Tall land masses like mountains have huge roots pushing down into the mantle to stabilize them.
Is at best a bad choice of words, at worst incorrect. large mountains have deep "roots" because they are heavy. "Stabilize" in this case is a very bad explanation, since it is not the case that those mountain's roots prevent earth from shaking or have any similar effect. It's a simple matter of displacement.