What is Matter (scientifically)

[Phishfood]

This thread is made by me as a split from the What is Matter thread that wanted a more philosophical answer. The first responses that came into that thread were about matter being a form of energy, but then other responses said that matter wasn't energy...so im wondering, WHAT IS MATTER AND HOW DOES IT RELATE TO ENERGY AND OTHER FORMS THAT ENERGY TAKES? I'm a little more than a layman on the subject, but im an expert by no means. I read, understood, and enjoyed Hawking's "A Brief History of Time," to give you an idea of the sophistication I can handle.

Also, this is my very first attempt at thread-starting :wave: , so mods, i apologize if this is in the wrong place, and forgive me.

-Pf

also, any links to previous threads on the same subject would obviously be appreciated.

[|2eason]

'Matter' is a bit of a myth by current thinking.
You have on one hand 'mass' which is currently thought to be the by-product of interactions with the higgs field. And then you have momentum-energy , which is responsible for gravity. Both are thought of as properties of 'matter', but they have different causes.

[YadaYada]

Is energy more than an equivalent "currency"? Can it be said to exist? Can it interact?

[Phishfood]

'Matter' is a bit of a myth by current thinking.
You have on one hand 'mass' which is currently thought to be the by-product of interactions with the higgs field. And then you have momentum-energy , which is responsible for gravity. Both are thought of as properties of 'matter', but they have different causes.

so, to show what i'm gleaning from this, and give something to build off: am i to think that matter has two properties (among others or no?), mass that comes from the higgs field, and momentum-energy (is this supposed to be read as "momentum, a type of energy" or "momentum/energy, as in momentum and energy" or what? im confused by this). i dont know what the higgs' field is. and the aspect of matter that gives it its force of gravity is momentum-energy? am i getting you correctly?

only two replies so far, and one of those was to hijack my thread with new questions ;) (edited to add: thinking about this thread i caught myself thinking about the different forms of energy and electrical energy and heat energy and really appreciated your question. what meaningful way do we talk about energy? just "the ability to do work?") . i REALLY REALLY appreciate the answers, so bear with me while i try to make sense of it. i really want to understand this on a hopefully intuitive level, to the point that i could at least explain it to someone who doesn't get it either.

again, an early thanks.
-Pf

[epepke]

so, to show what i'm gleaning from this, and give something to build off: am i to think that matter has two properties (among others or no?), mass that comes from the higgs field, and momentum-energy (is this supposed to be read as "momentum, a type of energy" or "momentum/energy, as in momentum and energy" or what? im confused by this). i dont know what the higgs' field is. and the aspect of matter that gives it its force of gravity is momentum-energy? am i getting you correctly?

Momentum/energy is a 4-vector made og Energy (one number, including "mass") and Momentum (three numbers). It can also be represented as a quaternion.

Gravity works on momentum/energy.

[mirage]

Momentum/energy is a 4-vector made og Energy (one number, including "mass") and Momentum (three numbers). It can also be represented as a quaternion.

Gravity works on momentum/energy.
Just to add to that, the variables are paired by the Uncertainty Principle so you can't know both independently, but you can deal with them mathematically together.

A photon has momentum/energy but no mass. So it is affected by gravity. How confusing!

[Phishfood]

ok, so matter is momentum/energy, which is a 4-vector. one vector for energy, which includes mass (which comes from the higgs field) and three vectors for momentum.
^is this accurate so far? i feel when i get this part sorted out i can start asking more questions, like what the higgs' field is and such.

-Pf

edited to add after rereading to make i hadn't missed anything: so a photon is affected by gravity but has no mass. so gravity does not act on mass (one aspect of Energy) but acts on momentum/Energy (WRT energy, gravity acts on other aspects of energy that do not include mass?)

Hope you guys enjoy teaching...this may take a while. i had expected a "matter is a form of energy"-type discussion, with analogies and such. this is ALL new to me, so i might be asking to break it down further.

[epepke]

ok, so matter is momentum/energy, which is a 4-vector. one vector for energy, which includes mass (which comes from the higgs field) and three vectors for momentum.

Just so we get the terminology right, there's one scalar for energy, and three scalars for momentum.

"Vector" is the word for the thing that you get when you combine them. I prefer "Quaternion," but that's a minority opinion.

But, yes. You have it basically right.

[epepke]

edited to add after rereading to make i hadn't missed anything: so a photon is affected by gravity but has no mass. so gravity does not act on mass (one aspect of Energy) but acts on momentum/Energy (WRT energy, gravity acts on other aspects of energy that do not include mass?)

Enrergy/Momentum both creates gravity and reacts to the gravity of Energy/Momentum.

Hope you guys enjoy teaching...this may take a while. i had expected a "matter is a form of energy"-type discussion, with analogies and such. this is ALL new to me, so i might be asking to break it down further.

Nah. I, at least, enjoy teaching. I don't like it when someone gets into it a bit and then gets terrified and runs. This happens all the time.

[Unum]

like what the higgs' field is and such.


Good, one page explanations of Higgs fields/bosons (http://www.phy.uct.ac.za/courses/phy400w/particle/higgs.htm).

peace,

unum

[|2eason]

Is energy more than an equivalent "currency"? Can it be said to exist? Can it interact?

It can be said to exist and it does interact, yes. Hmm, unless you actually look for it, in which case, you'll find only the probability that it exists somewhere nearby:)
http://particleadventure.org/

[Phishfood]

Enrergy/Momentum both creates gravity and reacts to the gravity of Energy/Momentum.

i assumed this much. but am i correct in stating that is not the mass of matter that does the reacting or creating of gravity, but the other aspects that make up the quaternion?

i gotta run for now, but i promise ill have more questions at a later time. probably early morning. i wouldn't want to disappoint you :) .
:)
-Pf

[epepke]

i assumed this much. but am i correct in stating that is not the mass of matter that does the reacting or creating of gravity, but the other aspects that make up the quaternion?

i gotta run for now, but i promise ill have more questions at a later time. probably early morning. i wouldn't want to disappoint you :) .
:)
-Pf

Inasmuch as I understand what you are saying, it's the whole thing that reacts to gravity and makes gravity happen.

Mass is just a simplification when things don't move much.

[Phishfood]

Good, one page explanations of Higgs fields/bosons (http://www.phy.uct.ac.za/courses/phy400w/particle/higgs.htm).

peace,

unum

really excellent link. explained a lot. thanks! :thumbs:

ok so now i've got that matter is a 4-scalar quaternion made of momentum/Energy. mass comes from interactions with the Higg's field. Anything else I should know? I'm learning all I know from you guys, so outside of what I've gathered so far, I dont even have suggestions. Am i at the cusp of what a layman like myself could comprehend? maybe, what are the three momentum scalars scalars of? and the energy one? what is the scalar a measurement of?

-Pf

edit: can't believe this thing is still in philosophy. wish i could boot it myself.

[Carrie]

No no no. First there is the figglyfoop factor, which keeps light dancing to the rhythm of the M12 particles bouncing in the oracle. That makes the appearance of matter, which is really just a holographical vortex.

:D :D :D

[Phishfood]

No no no. First there is the figglyfoop factor, which keeps light dancing to the rhythm of the M12 particles bouncing in the oracle. That makes the appearance of matter, which is really just a holographical vortex.

:D :D :D

oh you''ve GOT to be KIDDING ME!! I thought I was SO close, and I didn't even take into consideration the figglyfoop factor. and the dancing, too! what beautiful dancing! how could I have been so naive.

and lets not forget that the M12 particles have to be pure of heart to get to the oracle, as witnessed in the scientific documentary The Neverending Story.

-Pf

[epepke]

ok so now i've got that matter is a 4-scalar quaternion made of momentum/Energy. mass comes from interactions with the Higg's field. Anything else I should know? I'm learning all I know from you guys, so outside of what I've gathered so far, I dont even have suggestions. Am i at the cusp of what a layman like myself could comprehend? maybe, what are the three momentum scalars scalars of? and the energy one? what is the scalar a measurement of?

You're pretty close. However, I'm the only one around here who thinks of Energy/Momentum as a quaternion. Most people think of it as a 4-vector in pseudo-Reimannian space with a {1, 1, 1, -1} metric, also known as Minkowski space. I just think quaternions are easier to work with, and they don't make my brain hurt as much. The math works out the same.

The three momentum scalars are the components of momentum in the three standard spatial dimensions. It doesn't matter which you pick, so long as they are at right angles to each other. A scalar is just a single real number, a mark on a scale, hence "scalar."

The energy one is just energy.

The really cool thing about energy/momentum is that it transforms exactly the way that spacetime does, with the momentum corresponding to space, and the energy corresponding to time. Also, as Mirage said, the individual components are uncertain, but the whole thing works out fine.

The Higgs field is interesting, because if someone were to figure it out, it would do a lot toward unifying General Relativity with the Standard Model of particle physics. So far, though, nobody has really figured it out yet. But doing General Relativity doesn't really require this.

[Phishfood]

You're pretty close. However, I'm the only one around here who thinks of Energy/Momentum as a quaternion. Most people think of it as a 4-vector in pseudo-Reimannian space with a {1, 1, 1, -1} metric, also known as Minkowski space. I just think quaternions are easier to work with, and they don't make my brain hurt as much. The math works out the same.

The three momentum scalars are the components of momentum in the three standard spatial dimensions. It doesn't matter which you pick, so long as they are at right angles to each other. A scalar is just a single real number, a mark on a scale, hence "scalar."

The energy one is just energy.

The really cool thing about energy/momentum is that it transforms exactly the way that spacetime does, with the momentum corresponding to space, and the energy corresponding to time. Also, as Mirage said, the individual components are uncertain, but the whole thing works out fine.

The Higgs field is interesting, because if someone were to figure it out, it would do a lot toward unifying General Relativity with the Standard Model of particle physics. So far, though, nobody has really figured it out yet. But doing General Relativity doesn't really require this.

i didn't make any real distinction between the 4-vector pseudo-Reimannian, {1,1,1,-1} metric thing, and a quaternion. but i know i dont understand the latter, so ill stick with the former. this is delving well into things i dont know ANYTHING about. i think a lot of my confusion comes from an inability to conceptualize what "matter" is. do i think of it as a particle, like an atom? or do i need to think of it as a more abstract, particle/wave kind of thing? in my mind all i can really do is think of a coordinate plane with a bunch of vectors pointing out in 4 directions. when we speak of matter, are we talking about a fundamental particle of matter? like, to say that space is made of a bunch of quaternions of matter? or do we think of matter in a much larger sense, like the fabric of spacetime itself (pardon if this is grossly unscientific, im going for simplicity in conveyance, not accuracy) seen as a quaternion that is Matter?

i also do not understand about momentum/energy transforming to spacetime, but it sounds cool :) maybe this would require an overview of what spacetime even is.

-Pf

also, if this starts to get tiring for you, i wont blame you if you just quit :) . but thanks, you're a big help, Epepke, and everyone else too.

[Anglican]

The metric is a bilinear functional which maps two vectors to their scalar product. What this means is that if you have two vector A and B and a metric g then their dot (i.e. scalar) product is given by g(A,B). In Minkowski spacetime given the t,x,y,z componets of two Lorentz vectors {A^t,A^x,A^y,A^z} and {B^t,B^x,B^y,B^z} their dot product is given by:

A⋅B = -A^t*B^t + A^x*B^x + A^y*B^y + A^z*B^z

This is why we say it has signature (-1,1,1,1).

Minkowski spacetime is a rela vectoir space therfore the lenght of any Lornetz vector is simply sqrt(A⋅A).

Energy momentum is a Lorentz vector whose time compoent is energy and spatial components are the spatial compoents of it's momentum and it also turns out that it's length is simply it's rest mass.

[mindovermyth]

I think matter is best described as a thingy.

[Phishfood]

Energy momentum is a Lorentz vector whose time compoent is energy and spatial components are the spatial compoents of it's momentum and it also turns out that it's length is simply it's rest mass.

can you explain this more? like dumb it down a notch? im reading it and im thinking "time component is energy? so if it has more energy, it has more time? what? its in the future?"

-Pf

[Anglican]

I'm assuming your aware of the basic concept of a vector (ignore the parts in the brackets if you like they are just there for correctness).

As you probably know spacetime is four-dimensional with (in any given frame) three of those dimensions being space and one of those dimensions being time thus vector quantities in spacetime must have four compoents, 3 spatial and 1 time component (it also must be Lorentz covaraint). An example of such a vector is the energy-momentum vector which as I said early has spatial components that are just (relatvistic) momentum and a time compoent that is just (relativstic) energy.

[YadaYada]

What other significant Lorentz vectors are there besides space-time and energy-momentum?

[Anglican]

There is four-displacement which you've sort of mentioned which you could probably guess has spatial componets that are dispaement in space and a time compent that is simply displacement in time, there's also four-velocity whose spatial componets are velcoity mulitplied by relativstic gamma and it's time compeont is simply relatvistic gamma. The inetersting thing about four velocity is that it's length is always c (though four velocity cannot be defined for particles such as photons), you also get the relationship P = mU where P is four momentum (i.e. energy-momentum), m is mass (rest mass) and U is the four velocity which is of course analgous to the formula for momentum in Newtonian physics.

[epepke]

i didn't make any real distinction between the 4-vector pseudo-Reimannian, {1,1,1,-1} metric thing, and a quaternion. but i know i dont understand the latter, so ill stick with the former.[quote]

OK. I just like quaternions because they are a natural extension of the reals and complex numbers and form a division algebra, which I find easier to deal with. You can use 4-vectors, but then you have to change things like the Pythagorean formula by sticking in - signs.

[quote]do i think of it as a particle, like an atom? or do i need to think of it as a more abstract, particle/wave kind of thing?

Energy/momentum describes a variety of things. It could describe a single photon, a single electron, or a star.

I don't think that there's a single idea that describes "matter" in modern thinking. For mass of particles, you have to look at the Higgs field. For the mass of lumps, it's a manifestation of energy/momentum.

in my mind all i can really do is think of a coordinate plane with a bunch of vectors pointing out in 4 directions.

If that makes the most sense for your brain, fine.

when we speak of matter, are we talking about a fundamental particle of matter?

I don't know. Of course, there's that Higgs boson. But I'm not sure that this is the best way of thinking about things.

[starling]

If energy fields travel around in waves, I've always thought of matter as a standing wave, of energy.

[Phishfood]

i appreciate everyone's replies. i learned a lot and have a better grasp of where to go to find more information.

'preciate it! :thumbs:

-Pf

[Kalkin]

From both the OP and replies, I think this probably belongs in Science and Skepticism. It appears to be more physics than philosophy.