Why NOT to live in Alabama

[Colorado Infidel]

Another idiotic law enforcement officer longing for the good old days of killing blacks & homosexuals:

http://www.marshallco.org/www/ and navigate to the sheriff's page, or go directly to
http://www.marshallco.org/www/so/so.htm

Story on Bush, oops I mean FOX, News about it:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144240,00.html

:banghead:

[Viti]

Bigots and idiots live everywhere. Evergreen Colorado (IIRC correctly, some little South Parkish hellhole anyhoo) is holding a recall election because a commissioner refuses to say the Pledge; citing Church State Separation, not areligiousness. Nevada, home of Sin City, voted to put a gay discrimination amendment on the books a few years ago.

I am moving to Alabama later this year, for the weather, the low cost of living, and the ability to have a home on a river and near the beach. I am pretty sure I will be disgusted often...but maybe it will give me a chance to flex my activism muscles which have atrophied a bit.

[someotherguy]

Ahh yes...the 1950's. The good ol' days when blacks, women and gays knew their place. :banghead:

[whichphilosophy]

Ahh yes...the 1950's. The good ol' days when blacks, women and gays knew their place. :banghead:

A couple of years ago, Alabama still retained the law prohibiting marriages from mixed ethnical backgrounds; however it was not enforced for several years. (Maybe it's now been repealed).

[PatrickHays]

I was looking at the photo at the bottom of the page of the Marshall County Sheriff's Department deputies and staff and noticed that there was NOT even one black person on the staff or department . . . Loved the letter, just confirms my idea that Alabama is not worth me even driving through. It would make me nervous to live in that county for sure!

[whichphilosophy]

Another idiotic law enforcement officer longing for the good old days of killing blacks & homosexuals:

http://www.marshallco.org/www/ and navigate to the sheriff's page, or go directly to
http://www.marshallco.org/www/so/so.htm

Story on Bush, oops I mean FOX, News about it:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144240,00.html

:banghead:

I did manage to read it. The word black and white prison uniforms could be construed as prison uniforms for blacks and whites but I think he was talking about the uniforms.

Since he's omitted segretation, banned marriages between different groups, lynch mobs, gang rape, the KKK influence on politics in the 1950s, racist groups, the colour bar the tier system for citizenship, unprosecuted lynchings, burning black churches,setting fire to homes, preventing blacks from voting,murder and beating up homosexuals, the resistence to allowing blacks education, white only only police, ,... and if one was a white fundamentalist Christian going to church every sunday, sure these were to good old days wherever they were.

[Sgent29]

Keep in mind that this is a white county, and is over 97% white. The fact that they have no black employees probably isn't an issue that could be legally disputed -- and its entirely possible they've never had a black apply.

[JGL53]

I was looking at the photo at the bottom of the page of the Marshall County Sheriff's Department deputies and staff and noticed that there was NOT even one black person on the staff or department . . . Loved the letter, just confirms my idea that Alabama is not worth me even driving through. It would make me nervous to live in that county for sure!

- Someone from Texass dumping on Alabama? That's rich. Sorta like someone from New Jersey dumping on New York for its problem of organized crime.

[Colorado Infidel]

Bigots and idiots live everywhere. Evergreen Colorado (IIRC correctly, some little South Parkish hellhole anyhoo) is holding a recall election because a commissioner refuses to say the Pledge; citing Church State Separation, not areligiousness. Nevada, home of Sin City, voted to put a gay discrimination amendment on the books a few years ago.

I am moving to Alabama later this year, for the weather, the low cost of living, and the ability to have a home on a river and near the beach. I am pretty sure I will be disgusted often...but maybe it will give me a chance to flex my activism muscles which have atrophied a bit.

Yeah, no doubt, bigots abound. However, Evergreen is a beautiful little mountain town, but that city councilman is being unfairly targeted. I have written letters to the editor in the Denver papers about this. But as I recall, I think it may have been Estes Park and not Evergreen. I could be wrong.

Good luck with the activism. I understand that there is a freethought group in 'Bama that has an atheist camp at Lake Hypatia...affilated with the FFRF. They call it an "advance" instead of a retreat. You may want to check it out when you get there.

[JGL53]

.... Good luck with the activism. I understand that there is a freethought group in 'Bama that has an atheist camp at Lake Hypatia...affilated with the FFRF. They call it an "advance" instead of a retreat. You may want to check it out when you get there.

That's in the Birmingham area. I believe they have an active group in Mobile also.

[PatrickHays]

- Someone from Texass dumping on Alabama? That's rich. Sorta like someone from New Jersey dumping on New York for its problem of organized crime.

Trust me . . . I do plenty of dumping on Texas as well. ;)

[Shake]

What's interesting/scary/funny, depending on how you look at it, is that he follows this:Children's school days started with the recitation of the "Lord's Prayer" and the "Pledge of Allegiance" to the flag of the United States of America.... with this:It was a shame to break the law.Yeah. Apparently, he doesn't see the irony here. Perhaps he doesn't understand that the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the US is considered law.

Still more irony:The state that has its motto "We dare defend our rights".

...

Homosexuality was very queer and a despicable act… an abomination.
Damnit! Now I have to go buy another Irony Meter (TM).

Evidently, by "our", he meant heterosexual white Christian males. :rolleyes:

Found something positive -- amazingly -- in the FauxNews article. Don Hunter, an Anniston native, wrote to Holcomb:"While I would agree with you that we have lost many wonderful things from the 1950s," Hunter wrote to the sheriff, "homophobia, racism, and sexism are not part of the wonderful things. They are ugly now, they were ugly then, and surely they would be ugly in the eyes of Jesus Christ, who taught only love and compassion, never hatred." :thumbs:

[EverLastingGodStopper]

I sent this letter to Americans United for Separation of Church and State (http://www.au.org)
Alabama Sheriff Statement Needs AU Reply
Hello to AU from New Jersey,

Please look at : http://www.marshallco.org/www/so/so.htm

Marshall County Alabama Sheriff's website. Run by the state. The entire thing is shocking, I can't believe a government website can espouse such positions as "Homosexuality was very queer and a despicable act… an abomination." Maybe a letter from AU would convince them to remove the pro-theocracy viewpoint from the official government page?

Fox News has run a story about this: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144240,00.html

Thought you should know!

Regards,

Janice Rael
Clayton NJ
www.dvau.org
So, if I get a reply, I'll let you know.

[SLD]

Allright, time for an Alabamian to jump in here and defend his state. Despite the caricature portrayed here there is a strong progressive movement in this state, minority though we may be. Even Marshall County has freethinkers (I know some!), and other liberals who shake their head at this stuff.

As to the racial make-up of this area, I checked the latest census figures, and as I suspected, it's insignificant. Out of 82,000 residents, only 1,200 are blacks. So it is not surprising that the Sheriff's office is all white. This is a part of Alabama that never allowed African Americans in antebellum times; and probably didn't until it became illegal to ban such travel much later on. In fact, Cullman County, right next to it used to have a sign when you entered their county seat that stated: "Nigger don't let the sun set on your ass in this town." That sign is supposedly still in the basement of the courthouse where you can visit it. Winston County which is also right next to it, is famous for having seceded from Alabama in 1861, forming the Free State of Winston. This was not out of any opposition to slavery per se, but because they didn't want any blacks, slaves or free, in their county.

Interestingly enough, without many African Americans living in the area, there were few race problems to deal with in the Civil Rights era. I would venture to guess there wasn't even a separate school system in the 50's because there simply wouldn't have been a need for one.

The problem I had with the letter was the religious overtone. This is an official website, and not a campaign website. It sounds like Atheists aren't welcome. Very unprofessional to say the least.

SLD

[scombrid]

I was raised in era, the 1940's as a child and the 1950's as a teenager, which I remember with great affection.

Yeah, I guess life was good for a white male racist fundamentalist protestant Christian in rural Alabama back then.

[Crucifiction]

This settlement was known as having many intelligent Cherokees.

From the Marshall Co. website.

Woah! So, all of the intelligent Cherokees lived in that town? What about the rest of them? :rolleyes:

[fromtheright]

LadyShea,

I am moving to Alabama later this year

Well, an early welcome to the heart of Dixie! Where in Alabama?

[Garnet]

OK..well..gawd knows I've been doing my fair share of Alabama bashing here.

But here's a few good things:

1. I can't deny it, Alabama is pretty. Green and lush..and oh gawd the sugar sand beaches.

2. In general, people are more friendly here than anywhere else I've lived. If you are in a grocery store or a doctors office, chances are someone will strike up a conversation, even if it's only about the weather.

3. Greens. People down here know how to cook and serve greens. NUMMY.

4. Civil war history. Here in Montgomery there's all kinds of "stuff"...houses, monuments, plaques, battlefields. If you are a civil war buff, come on down.

5. Architecture. Oh..my...my...in my neighborhood there are so many historic houses that it's hard to keep track. If'n ya like looking at old but well preserved houses, come on down.

6. Weather. OK...Ivan sucked. But after living in Michigan for the last four years, it's nice to go out a sweatshirt and jeans in January. On the other hand, you may need gills to breath here in the summer.

7. The cost of living. Lower than anywhere else I've ever lived. I'll be renting a one-bedroom apartment, all utilities and cable included for $525 a month. Thank you very much.

8. Though it is not just Alabama..Sonic Drive In crushed ice? They sell it for 99 cents a bag. Nuff said?

9. And this one is hardest to explain of all. Forget the fundy crap. Forget the sexist crap. Forget the racist crap. There is an attitude here that you help people. Regardless of color or religion. I once fell down while walking to work...it looked much worse than it was, I really didn't hurt myself, but took an incredible flop. Face down, legs splayed, purse about 3 feet away and contents spewed all over. People rushed to help. Two men, one white, one black, assisted me to my feet. A black woman gathered the contents of my purse. I was picked up, belongings returned, and these folks made sure I was ok before moving on. Now, if this had happened in Phoenix? OK...it has happened in Phoenix, people rushed on by to avoid me.

10. On the downside, racism and fundyism is a blatant fact here. And it sucks....big time. And I honestly don't know what to say to that. Nevertheless, I will be living here for a while, so maybe it is time for me to look not only at the negative, but to step back and take a longer look at everything.

Ah well...Dr. Bud is ministering to me so I make not make sense.

[Colorado Infidel]

OK..well..gawd knows I've been doing my fair share of Alabama bashing here.

But here's a few good things:

1. I can't deny it, Alabama is pretty. Green and lush..and oh gawd the sugar sand beaches.



But isn't the green just kudzu covering everything? :Cheeky:

Anyway, yes Alabama has its good points, like everywhere else. As a kid I remember camping out at Lake Weiss near the Georgia line, and enjoying the beauty of the Little River Canyon. Then on the flip side, there's Roy Moore. :angry:

[Corwin]

8. Though it is not just Alabama..Sonic Drive In crushed ice? They sell it for 99 cents a bag. Nuff said?

*whimpers*

Dammit Sonic needs to open up out here.

9. And this one is hardest to explain of all. Forget the fundy crap. Forget the sexist crap. Forget the racist crap. There is an attitude here that you help people. Regardless of color or religion. I once fell down while walking to work...it looked much worse than it was, I really didn't hurt myself, but took an incredible flop. Face down, legs splayed, purse about 3 feet away and contents spewed all over. People rushed to help. Two men, one white, one black, assisted me to my feet. A black woman gathered the contents of my purse. I was picked up, belongings returned, and these folks made sure I was ok before moving on. Now, if this had happened in Phoenix? OK...it has happened in Phoenix, people rushed on by to avoid me.

Pfft.

Come out west. We do that here too.

10. On the downside, racism and fundyism is a blatant fact here. And it sucks....big time. And I honestly don't know what to say to that. Nevertheless, I will be living here for a while, so maybe it is time for me to look not only at the negative, but to step back and take a longer look at everything.

Ok... the Northwest is.... very.... white. But there really isn't any overt racism here.... and fundyism is limited to outside the cities... (most people are urban.)

[fromtheright]

SLD, ol' friend, it even does this Southern right-wing fundy heart good to hear these nice things about Alabama.

And, thank y'all. Y'all come awn down, the first bowl of grits is on me. :)

[Viti]

LadyShea,

I am moving to Alabama later this year

Well, an early welcome to the heart of Dixie! Where in Alabama?

Bon Secour in Baldwin County. We bought nice 1/2 acre on the river with a deeded boat slip :)

10 minute drive to the beach, 5 minute boat ride to the shrimp store, 30 second walk to my parents. Gonna be a nice lifestyle I think.

[Viti]

<in response to story about falling in the street>

Pfft.

Come out west. We do that here too.

Well Corwin, as a life long Westerner I have to disagree. The thing I noticed most in my travels to the South was that people are more helpful and friendly than they are here. All people, regardless of race, had a smile and a "hey" for me (freaked me out at first to have someone chatting with me at the Big Gulp machine), suggestions of sights to see and things to do in thier area, and a friendly curiosity about where I was from.

We were staring at a map on the hood of our car at a convenience store, and someone stopped to help us out...when we explained were looking for property and couldn't find a realtor to help us she made 3 phone calls, in the parking lot, to get us an appointment with "her cousin's wife's brother"

Might I get directions in the West? Absolutely. Would someone here take 10 minutes from their day to find me a professional in whatever field? I doubt it.


Ok... the Northwest is.... very.... white. But there really isn't any overt racism here.... and fundyism is limited to outside the cities... (most people are urban.)

Our racism and fundyism is simply better hidden...it exists though. I would rather know that person A is a racist up front than be shocked to hear the bigotry coming out of their mouth only after I have gotten to like them.

[fromtheright]

LadyShea,

I'm jealous, but mostly about the short drive to the shrimp store, I think. While I know I can't go to the beach every day, the thought of fresh gumbo and etouffe warms me up.

It is definitely refreshing that so much, though, of the racism that so many think stereotypical of the South, and maybe Alabama in particular, is dying out. I may be a little naive since I live in Huntsville, farther north and more educated, but I still believe things have come a long way. Even private schools I think throughout Alabama don't discriminate by race. There are pockets, as noted earlier, though. Arab (pronounced long "a" at the front) is in Marshall County and is almost as notorious as Cullman. My son's basketball team in public school plays their high school and when a black Huntsville player takes a fall on the court, their players will extend a hand as though offering to help him and then suddenly withdraw it and go off laughing. Fortunately, though, that just motivates the blacks and the whites to kick their asses that much more.

[Viti]

We figured we would do a low country boil and margaritas on Sundays with the family and neighbors. We have already been looking at outdoor boiling pots.

[fromtheright]

Low country boil? I guess that means you're already acquainted with "sucking heads"? (for those not acquainted, there is nothing suggestive in the question :) )

[Viti]

Low country boil? I guess that means you're already acquainted with "sucking heads"? (for those not acquainted, there is nothing suggestive in the question :) )


Um, no, I am not that familiar with all the terms yet. Hubby had low country boil after a day of crabbing in Louisiana, and I read you can do it with shrimp too.

So, what's a sucking head then?

[fromtheright]

It's a crawfish/Cajun thang. They boil crawfish with Cayenne pepper, and the pepper gets absorbed, I guess, into the head/thorax. You tear the tail off and eat the meat, then you "suck the head" to get the pepper/spice. The first time I did it, it did a number on my lower GI tract, to put it delicately, but I was hooked!

[Corwin]

Well Corwin, as a life long Westerner I have to disagree. The thing I noticed most in my travels to the South was that people are more helpful and friendly than they are here. All people, regardless of race, had a smile and a "hey" for me (freaked me out at first to have someone chatting with me at the Big Gulp machine), suggestions of sights to see and things to do in thier area, and a friendly curiosity about where I was from.

Yeah, but have you ever lived in 'Cascadia?'

NorCal on up to Southern BC.... it really is a pretty radically different culture. You really can't compare us to the rest of what this country considers to be 'the west.' (Even southern California is pretty radically different.)

I've travelled in the south as well, and the parts I've seen I kinda liked. (Not crazy about Texas at all.... but I love NOLA and would like to go to Savannah.)

[Viti]

Yeah, but have you ever lived in 'Cascadia?'

NorCal on up to Southern BC.... it really is a pretty radically different culture. You really can't compare us to the rest of what this country considers to be 'the west.' (Even southern California is pretty radically different.)

I've travelled in the south as well, and the parts I've seen I kinda liked. (Not crazy about Texas at all.... but I love NOLA and would like to go to Savannah.)

I have lived in SoCal, Colorado's front range in several places, and Las Vegas. I have traveled for business in Portland and Seattle.

I have never spent time in Texas, and didn't like Oklahoma, but I loved New Orleans, Atlanta, where I am moving on the Alabama coast, Charleston, and Charlotte.

[fromtheright]

Lady Shea,

I am curious as to your experience in Charleston. My impression has long been that it is rather racist. Another dying stereotype?

[Viti]

Lady Shea,

I am curious as to your experience in Charleston. My impression has long been that it is rather racist. Another dying stereotype?

I didn't spend enough time there to make that determination. I haven't spent enough time anywhere in the South to really see the racism/fundyism in action. I do know we got lost in Charleston, and ended up in a predominately black neighborhood, which looked no different than the white neighborhoods we had driven through with the exception of the predominant race of the people we saw. The whole city seemed charming and clean with interesting architecture and beautiful lawns and gardens :huh:

I had similar experiences in pretty much all my Southern travels, this apparent and obvious segregation, but it's the same in the West quite frankly. I strongly feel we are just as racist, just not as obvious and blatant about it.

[diana]

I had similar experiences in pretty much all my Southern travels, this apparent and obvious segregation, but it's the same in the West quite frankly. I strongly feel we are just as racist, just not as obvious and blatant about it.I see a great deal of self-segregation everywhere, also. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that means we're racist. One's preference for being near another of the same color/culture does not mean one feels that those of other colors/cultures are inferior or undesirable in some way.

When I lived in Wilmington, NC, I attended a birthday party of a good friend (Mac) who happens to be a black man. We met at the local pub--something like 40 of us--and the group was pretty much 50% white and 50% black. It being an informal gathering, there were no designated seating arrangements. Someone pointed out that almost all of the black people had congregated on one side of the room and the white people on the other. That person was pointing out the irony of all the fighting for legal desegregation, and look at how we all naturally segregated ourselves--which was a valid point, IMO. Because we do. You "flock" naturally to people who you perceive to be like you. It doesn't mean you don't like people of other races or feel you're superior to them in some way. It doesn't necessarily mean anything about them at all, except that they aren't as "like" you as the group you sat down with.

Interestingly enough, I'd just as naturally positioned myself at the dividing line. I've wondered since what this says about my comfort zone and my feelings toward other colors/cultures.

Or maybe I read too much into it and it just means I like being the center of attention. ;)

d

[Viti]

I agree that the segregation is often people grouping themsevles, d.

What I mean when I say I think we're racist in the West is demonstrated in the job market. If I go into a store or restaurant in the West, most of the cashiers or waitpeople are white, and the less public positions like dishwashers and maintenance people are minority. When I go into a similar establishment in the South, I am just as likely to be helped by a black as a white. My mom works at a national jewlery chain in Alabama. Their sales crew is about 50/50. I have been into dozens of locations of the same chain in three Western states and have never seen a black or hispanic salsperson, only a few Asians and the rest white. Even here where we have a very large Mexican population, the hispanics tend to be laborers, hotel housekeeping and other "behind the scenes" type jobs.

It doesn't take formal education or difficult to learn skills to wait tables or cashier in a retail establishment...so why the lack of diversity? It's not as if Vegas lacks a minority population to pull from.

[Wyz_sub10]

...didn't have to worry that their children might be subjected to filth on television such as nudity...

Sorry, I just wanted to note this. I always think people who label nudity as "filth" are kinda fucked up.

As for demographics, I counted 7 women in the photo - 4 of which were redheads (which seems a bit unusual, but whatever).

[Dick Springer]

In the last election a referendum to amend the state constitution to eliminate several racist clauses was voted down.

[Aria]

Ok... the Northwest is.... very.... white. But there really isn't any overt racism here.... and fundyism is limited to outside the cities... (most people are urban.)

True, but we do have enormous immigration. Our population would be shrinking otherwise.

Well Corwin, as a life long Westerner I have to disagree.

I believe Corwin is saying "west" and meaning Pacific Northwest. There is an attitude of helpfulness here that I have not found anywhere else in the entire world.

All people, regardless of race, had a smile and a "hey" for me (freaked me out at first to have someone chatting with me at the Big Gulp machine), suggestions of sights to see and things to do in thier area, and a friendly curiosity about where I was from.

That is the behaviour I am used too here. Pass somebody, anybody, on the street and I get "Good Afternoon" and a nod. This state is also one of the least religious states in the country, and the county I live in specifically is one of the least religious anywhere. I have never, in 15 years, encountered somebody that I knew was deeply religious or had strong fundamentalist feelings. Now, I very well MAY know people that do, but they simply don't talk about it. The culture here is very keen on not discussing such private issues until you are very friendly with one another. I have never heard two people talking about religion, I have never even really heard much about politics.. other than people being relieved that we finally have a governer.

Might I get directions in the West? Absolutely. Would someone here take 10 minutes from their day to find me a professional in whatever field? I doubt it.

You'd be wrong.

[Aria]

It doesn't take formal education or difficult to learn skills to wait tables or cashier in a retail establishment...so why the lack of diversity? It's not as if Vegas lacks a minority population to pull from.

Must be a local thing. A lot of grocery checkers and retail people here are Korean, Fillipino or Black. We have more Fillipino women than men by far, because our sailors tend to go off and marry them. My neighbours are one such a couple, and damn but have I learned to make some amazing food because of them.

[Viti]

Obviously the West encompasses more than the PNW. Hell Utah is a Western state.

[Corwin]

Obviously the West encompasses more than the PNW. Hell Utah is a Western state.

If you're more than an hour from the Pacific, you aren't in the West.

[Colorado Infidel]

As for demographics, I counted 7 women in the photo - 4 of which were redheads (which seems a bit unusual, but whatever).

Four that want to own me, two that want to stone me, one says she's a friend of mine.

[Garnet]

If you're more than an hour from the Pacific, you aren't in the West.

LOL!!! Well, I guess those 27 years I lived in Arizona..it wasn't the "real" west.

[Corwin]

LOL!!! Well, I guess those 27 years I lived in Arizona..it wasn't the "real" west.

Nope. Southwest. Totally different. :)

[Garnet]

Nope. Southwest. Totally different. :)

*chuckle* okies...ain't gonna argue.

[Shake]

I didn't spend enough time there to make that determination. I haven't spent enough time anywhere in the South to really see the racism/fundyism in action. I do know we got lost in Charleston, and ended up in a predominately black neighborhood, which looked no different than the white neighborhoods we had driven through with the exception of the predominant race of the people we saw. The whole city seemed charming and clean with interesting architecture and beautiful lawns and gardens :huh:

I had similar experiences in pretty much all my Southern travels, this apparent and obvious segregation, but it's the same in the West quite frankly. I strongly feel we are just as racist, just not as obvious and blatant about it.
I was stationed in Charleston for 7 years, so I know that the area has a bunch of military retirees and other transplants from all over the country. This tends to dilute the local climate a bit. Of course, my wife still tells friends about the time she turned on the local news to see that the KKK was holding a rally in one of the nearby towns!

I found the people there to be quite friendly regardless of color, for the most part, but I also felt there was some sort of 'reverse racism' going on, too. By that I mean that I could feel some animosity towards me just by the fact of my being white. It was like being pre-judged, and there's nothing like walking in someone else's shoes to understand what they go through all the time. It was frustrating.

They definitely have their own sort of 'traditional values' down there. Let me briefly explain with two examples of issues that were going on while I was down there:

1. Shannon Faulker v. the Citadel. The Citadel is a lovely little school not too far from a not-so-nice neighborhood. You saw lots of cadets walking throughout the city during the school year, and shortly after I got down there, lots of those, "Save the Males" bumper stickers. She caved and withdrew, but the following year, 4 women were admitted, two of whom graduated.

2. Confederate flag supporters v. the NAACP. The issue here was the flying of the Confederate battle flag atop the State House in Columbia. Supporters said it represented heritage, while the NAACP cited its use by the KKK and other hate groups as a symbol of the intolerance it once served to protect. In the end a good compromise was reached -- I say 'good' because both sides gained something, although they both seemed to prefer to think that they each lost because neither side got completely what they wanted -- the flag remained on the grounds, but in an area set aside for such historical items.

[Viti]

Of course, my wife still tells friends about the time she turned on the local news to see that the KKK was holding a rally in one of the nearby towns!

When I lived in Denver in the early 90's, the KKK held a rally on Martin Luther King day on the steps of the Capitol building annually. One year there was rioting amongst the counter protestors. Certainly not anything isolated to the South.

[JGL53]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyz_sub10
"As for demographics, I counted 7 women in the photo - 4 of which were redheads (which seems a bit unusual, but whatever). "

Four that want to own me, two that want to stone me, one says she's a friend of mine.

Hey, man, take it easy. Don't let the sound of your own voice drive you crazy.

[Aria]

Obviously the West encompasses more than the PNW. Hell Utah is a Western state.
It's obvious you and he, and now you and I, are talking about different things.

The culture is completely different once you leave the coastal areas.

[Corwin]

It's obvious you and he, and now you and I, are talking about different things.

The culture is completely different once you leave the coastal areas.

...aside from the depressingly huge number of Saints in both areas, that is.... :rolleyes: