Being nice to theists

[Vinnie]

How do you intellectually respect theists online?

In real life I can cope better with the sky-pimp believers but even there I noticed I am starting to be more open and vocal with my frustation at the sheer stupidity of theism and theists.

At any rate, I can't take theists even remotely seriously anymore. I think they are all stupid. I mean I know they aren't. Some of them are really smart, smarter than me even--well maybe thats pushing it ;)

But really, what the fuck. I am even driving away the theists on my own forum LOL Thouigh I must admit I haven't given too much care or concern about my forum lately. I consider this my online home and have neglected my own place. I like it here.

Revealed religions are wickedly stupid. I am ashamed I was ever a part of one. Theists keep saying and promoting arguments that are so god damn stupid its driving me nuts :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Vinnie

[Vinnie]

I just reread that, see, I called them sky-pimp believers.

I've been using sky-pimp a lot lately. I like the term. I coined it. Its a good way of referencing God :D

But still, its not nice when discussing with sky-pimples to call their daddy a sky-pimp is it?

Vinnie

[rationalOne]

I wish I'd had access to, or known about forums such as this when I was a Christian. Back then I had plenty of doubts, but it was enlightening to find materials online that dealt with a lot of the issues I had .

I do recall getting tired of the mental gymnastics required to remain a believer.

So it's kind of funny to read postings by theists here to see to what lengths they will go to rationalize their beliefs. I can't quite picture myself doing that. But it does give me pause when I feel like yelling at someone for their theism.

People sometimes ask, why are atheists so angry? Well in my case I'm really angry with myself for ever buying into that crap.

"Sky-pimp" is a great term, BTW. I also like "sky demon" and "sky pixie" :)

[Puck]

On another board, for older folks, that I go to, a woman started a thread about how she had stopped going to church for awhile. How she was ashamed to be a christian with all the vocal wingnuts out there making all christians look bad. Then she got angry. Angry that they've taken over her religion and turned it into something evil. Several other moderate christians then came out of the woodwork expressing the same thing. They started attacking the wingnuts!

I think it behooves us to be supportive of those christians who use their religion as a positive force. I offered her sympathy and suggested that she take her religion back, that she and those like her would have to be the ones that reclaimed christianity for the decent people. You ought to her hear and the others speak out now against the fundies, hehehe. The wingnuts have left the room!!!

So battle the wackos, and support the good 'uns. Religion may be a crutch, but for some people that's not always a bad thing. Pick your battles. Religion will not be going away any time soon, so anything we can do to make it safer for the rest of us is a good idea.

[livius drusus]

I had a great deal of respect for you 2 years ago, Vinnie. You were just as intellectually honest then as you are now, just as smart, just as well-read, curious, open-minded; far more so, in fact, than a good proportion of atheists on this site.

Honestly, I hope this anger you're experiencing will pass because it seems to me to be eating away at your sense of humor which was once such a pleasure to behold.

[HelenM]

Honestly, I hope this anger you're experiencing will pass because it seems to me to be eating away at your sense of humor which was once such a pleasure to behold.

I hope it will pass too, because I've found that when I've experienced the level of anger you seem to be, Vinnie, it's got in the way of what I want to accomplish in life and has only made me miserable.

Bear in mind that letting go of anger doesn't mean you've compromised your views or conceded anything to theists. It just means you've decided the anger is not helpful to you achieving what you want to achieve in your life.

Helen

[Vorkosigan]

Is Vinnie so angry? Looks like he's just frustrated with the absurdities and stupidities of God-belief, and wants to let off some steam.

[KingLouie]

Hey Vinnie,

I don't know if you've ever seen that old Dunkin' Donuts commercial -- the one with the old, tired fat dude. But it goes like this: this discheveld old guy rolls out of bed, and he's all obliterated with sleep. He walks into his kitchen all zombie-like, and he rubs his face and says, "It's time to go make the donuts."

Well, for the past year or so -- and especially for the past month or so -- I've been waking up the same way the Dunkin Donuts dude does. I wake up and I rub my eyes and say, "It's time to go make the pizza," and I say this because I make pizza for a living. There's just not much money in donuts, you know? Just look at Krispy Kreme.

But instead of going into the kitchen, I rub my eyes behind this monitor, while clicking on this website and reading all the stuff that's posted here; and I often click over to news sites and read all that stuff, and I mumble, "It's time to go make the pizza." I procrastinate, really, sometimes.

I always regarded that guy from Dunkin Donuts as someone who had made so many damn donuts -- who had done the same thing over and over again -- and so, it seemed to me, he no longer expected any more surprises from his day. And over time, I suppose, he had simply learned that a day of making donuts was probably going to be just another day of making donuts. There was no more expectation -- not of anything outside the norm. It was all going to be the same old thing.

I'm here to tell you, Vinnie, I'm kind of there, right now. This morning feels no different than it did yesterday, to be honest with you. I'm that guy, right now. I'm just here to make the pizza, again.

When I wake up in the morning, I know it's time to make the pizza. And when I click on this website, and when I click on the news, and as I'm rubbing my eyes and taking it all in, I know it's time to -- for the most part -- participate in the dialogue that seeks to devise lines between people, and the validity -- and credibility -- of one mode of thought over another. Or one action over another. Or one possession over another. And as my monitor wakes up, and as my dog comes to the stool and licks my leg to say, "Good morning, Kang," I know what it's time for: "It's time to read the struggles," I mumble.

I click on USA Today (because I'm a sucker for that sort of thing) and I see the pictures of Randy Moss mooning the Packers and all the people who are pissed by it, and I see the conservative news hosts who are paid by the conservative government to promote the conservative causes, and I see the recent beheadings and the Tsunamis and all the misery and fear and I say, "It's time to read the news."

Whenever I'm drinking my morning allotment of caffeine, I no longer have excitement or expectation of unearthing anything different or special or good from all this crap, because for so long, it seems to have been the same old thing: just a bunch of bad news. If there is some sort of "good" news out there, then it seems to be a drop in the bucket, especially to my slumber-ridden eyes, all downtrodden from the fact that soon, I'll only be heading out the door to go, yet again, endeavor to "make the pizza."

This morning was no different, I'm very sad to say, because whenever I was scrolling around with the same sort of squinty, sleepy eyes, I saw your topic heading here and I clicked on it, because it seemed to hint at something different -- something outside of the realm of another day of pizza-making. It said, "Being Nice To Theists." And for me, that sort of thing stood out as something rather progressive in light of the majority of other headings on this website.

But it wasn't. It was another pizza, for me -- and maybe it wasn't a pizza for you, but it was a pizza for me. And that's O.K., it's no big whoop. It's to be expected, really -- I know this. I understand it. And like you said -- and you were exactly right -- this is your online home. And you guys are, for the most part, a part of the same pizza mindset, just as those who might think like me (whoever the hell those might be) is of my same pizza mind.

But as for me, and my morning, it was simply another beginning of another day of making the pizza -- same as yesterday, and same as six months ago, and same, I regret to inform you, as a year ago. Things don't seem to change in this pizza factory, and that's O.K., so long as I maintain my integrity for striving to be a person who's not someone else's pizza.

But today, I readily admit, when I read this thread here, I almost became a pizza for you. I was extremely close, and I've been getting closer all the time, if you want to know the truth. It's a barrier I've been really trying not to breach, because it would be nothing more than me kneading a dough that I know not to roll.

When I read your post, and when I realized what you were saying, I was, in all honesty, pissed. And my first inclination was to emphatically and wholeheartedly go to war with you -- not that I could prove anything by doing it, but to hurt you like the words you wrote seemed to hurt me. And yes, Vinnie, it hurts me whenever I am included in such statements -- and I am included in such statements; but then, whenever I rub the last remnants of sleep from my eyes, I remember that you don't know me, and I know you don't know the inner complexities and intricacies that have led me to the place that I'm at -- or of all those other people in the world who have derived the same sorts of conclusions in theirs.

I know you don't know that, even though you may think you do; but still, my first inclination was to fight you tit-for-tat for it, because nobody likes to be called "stupid," no matter how you might seek to present it, and no matter how you might claim it's the "ideas" you are fighting and not the "people."

And so, in the end, I resisted the urge. It was harder this morning, but dang it, it was done. And no, it was not satisfying to resist -- nor is it still -- nor is it ever, to the state of affairs of my gut; but still, I refrained, save for whatever smarting this explanation might happen to unleash. I refrained from all-out pizza making with you, and I'll tell you why:

I don't want to be your pizza. And I don't want to be anybody else's pizza.

How the hell can I maintain what I believe, and then clamor for the outside of this human box that dictates I be a pizza to somebody else? Gee whiz, I read the USA Today and all I see are the people being other people's pizzas. It would be easy for me to say, "Damn man, those people are all just a bunch of pizzas," but that would be far too easy -- for me.

As for me, I want to do differently than to just swipe them all with the side of my hand. I want to give them all the benefit of the doubt -- from Randy Moss to the Olsen Twins, silly as it sounds. And do you know why? It's because I believe all those people feel like they are trying to do the best they can with this tumultuous-ass-life, and so they've figured that they have no other choice than to be someone else's pizza.

What's more, I also know that I don't know anything of what it's like to be anyone other than me. And since I don't know these things, the only thing I can do with my life is to concentrate on me not being someone else's pizza, because that's a lifelong affair -- for me. It takes every moment of every one of my days, and I simply have no energy left to point out the anchovies on someone else's cheese. Instead of exerting my time and energy pointing out that everyone else out there is a pizza, I try to become an order of chicken wings -- to be something different for other people's bloodshot, sleep-ridden eyes -- to be something better than that which a world before me so seemingly resigned to become.

Jesus dude, it has taken me all my life to figure out how not to be a pizza; and, when I read your message this morning, for some strange reason, I came extremely close to beackpedaling several steps -- perhaps backpedaling several years. I almost became your pizza.

But instead of all that cheese, I'll try very hard to leave you with this one conclusion I've made about you -- and I'll leave you with this revelation that you, in your striving, have helped me to achieve in this blood-shotty, coffee-drenched morning: you are not my pizza, not today. And nor am I yours. Not today.

And maybe tomorrow, whenever I click on this website yet again, I'll find me some delectable hummus, and some chocolate covered strawberries. That would be swell. And come tomorrow, when I roll out of bed, I'm going to keep looking for them, and I'm going to try to keep looking at people as if they are chicken wings, and not simply pizza, because how could I ever expect anything different out of breakfast, if all I brought to the table was a pizza myself?

And now, if you'll excuse me, it's time to go make the pizza. Contrary to recent hope and reason -- and contrary to the way things seem to be going down on the coast as of late -- I will, today, keep my eye out for a big, piping hot order of chicken wings. All spicy, and juicy, and covered with blue-cheese.

If I didn't ever hope to unearth anything different from our culinary selection in all our searching, then I doubt that this life would even be worth living. That's the way I see it, anyway.

And so, chicken wings? Here I come.

From the Jungles of Big, Blustery Brunch,

Kang Louie

[Godless Wonder]

Vinnie, I know exactly what you mean.

People do tend to get upset when you call stupidity stupid, if it's their stupidity.

The fact that millions of people behave stupidly doesn't make it any less stupid as far as I'm concerned, and pretending I don't think it's as stupid as I really do might be considered civil, but it would also be dishonest. I can't simply decide to think that something I currently think is stupid isn't stupid, I must be convinced, and so far, in the case of Christianity in particular, that has not happened. The more I learn about it, the more stupid it has come to appear. The Bible (Paul in particular) explicitly requires Christians to deliberately force themselves to be stupid in certain areas of thought.

Over in the "what's the dumbest thing you've heard a Christian say" thread, there was one example, something like, "Atheist: What's intelligence for? Christian: It's a test, if you use it, you fail." And that's a pretty good distillation of what Paul teaches.

[livius drusus]

Is Vinnie so angry? Looks like he's just frustrated with the absurdities and stupidities of God-belief, and wants to let off some steam.

I'm not just referring to his OP here, Vork. It's something I've noticed over the past month or so. I may be wrong, of course, as I have not read everything he's written, but what I have read frequently seems permeated with genuine fury.

[Nostalgic Pushhead]

Yeah, I have the lack of respect thing. Not really anger... I just have no respect for their beliefs, and act like an asshat accordingly.

I seriously could never have a close friend who was religious. I would either distance myself from them because they're an idiot, or drive them away by constantly making fun of their beliefs.

:huh:

[Jakanapes]

I have respect for people based on a great number of things: intelligence, humor, bravery, whatever....

I have no respect for unsubstantiated beliefs.

I find I can still have respect for a person because of some aspects of their personality, while having 0 respect for their weird beliefs. I've got a friend who believes in Feng Shui. He's also a great guy. I just call him an idiot when he talks about Feng Shui, then we go play Katamari Damacy.. :p

I only get angry when people in positions of government authority use their religion as a basis for being a bigoted jackass, and people fall for it.

[Vinnie]

But it does give me pause when I feel like yelling at someone for their theism.

I wanted to yell at someone the other day. A poster on my forum believes in theism. Well he doesn't do the Babble or anything like that. Kind of like an Antony Flew prime mover type deal. He doesn't argue the being is benvolent or anything....so he struggles with the issue of evolution and I try to post good links and arguments and so on....I recommended works like Miller's Finding Darwin's God and Dawking's the Blind Wachmaker (which is exactly what he needs) but instead now he is reading that Johnson lawyer guy's Darwin on Trial :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


People sometimes ask, why are atheists so angry? Well in my case I'm really angry with myself for ever buying into that crap.

Its embarrassing isn't it :D

"Sky-pimp" is a great term, BTW. I also like "sky demon" and "sky pixie" :)

I actually love it. I used sky-daddy yesterday when discussing with an more intelligent theist. I thought it might be less insulting to him :D


Vinnie

[flatland]

To the OP:

Vinnie, I don't have much to help you out, I'm afraid. I was never a theist, so I never deconverted, so I have no frame of reference. for the longest time, I simply did not think abotu god. Never entered my mind. Once I got towards the end of high school, I started running into religion here and there. But for the most part, my formative years were secular and uninfluenced by theism in any powerful sense.

To get to the point, I just have to think of theists as a case of cognitive dissonance. most of them(that I tend to run into) don't let it affect their daily lives too much. Most don't let it affect their professional lives too much. Most don't let it bleed too much into other areas of intellectual discourse. We all have our respective dissonances. Theirs surely seems particularly egregious to me, but I find them for the most part to be generally good people. Many of them are quite intelligent and have very well reasoned views on other subjects. As long as we're not discussing religion, theists are the same as any other person to me. Look at their arguments, not their personality. I'm sorry if I rambled a bit, I'm mildly sleep=deprived these days.

To KingLouie:

I thoroughly enjoy just about every one of your posts. Please continue to post. Also, I particularly enjoyed your sustained metaphor.

[Vinnie]

I'm not just referring to his OP here, Vork. It's something I've noticed over the past month or so. I may be wrong, of course, as I have not read everything he's written, but what I have read frequently seems permeated with genuine fury.

Yeah, my stuff is starting to get pretty edgy.....lately...

Vinnie

[JohNeo]

I have respect for people based on a great number of things: intelligence, humor, bravery, whatever....

I have no respect for unsubstantiated beliefs.

I find I can still have respect for a person because of some aspects of their personality, while having 0 respect for their weird beliefs. I've got a friend who believes in Feng Shui. He's also a great guy. I just call him an idiot when he talks about Feng Shui, then we go play Katamari Damacy.. :p

I only get angry when people in positions of government authority use their religion as a basis for being a bigoted jackass, and people fall for it.

I agree.

If someone's faith helps them through hard times--that is, it keeps him from being a total drain on others, or if it keeps him from going postal (my apologies to postal employees ;) ), I have respect not for the beliefs (and believe me I take plenty of shots at religion here on IIDB), but for the fact that he can find it in himself to stick it out.

If someone's faith guides him to make decisions that have negative consequences--such as a mother who cuts her baby's arms off and say that god told her to do it, well I have no respect for the beliefs nor for her.

But anyway I do try to be nice to theists unless they give me any reason to ignore them or try to cut them down to size. I figure if I don't someone being unkind to me because I am atheist, it would be hypocritical for me to use their theism as a basis to be unkind to them.

JohNeo

[Vinnie]

You know what I think the problem is? As I wrote in my OP:

"""""""How do you intellectually respect theists online?""""""""

I mean we have places like rapture ready, tweb and sites which catalogue them like Fundies say. Do these people actually exist in reality though? I don't meet people like this...very often....rarely ever. Most theists I meet are cool and religion never comes up. They are just normal people.

But usually everytime I meet a theist online its always in the context of apologetics, debate or something. They make these stupid websites with poor logic, bad arguments, lies and so forth. They try to argue and convert and so on....and theres so many of them....

You never get to see the "normalcy" of a person online. I haven't been to an Xian debate board in a long while either. I don't think I'd last very long at one (prolly be the most frequently banned non-troll in existence :D ) I am trying to avoid them. Still though, we often get hit and run theists here and every time they offer nothing but nonsense. Even the more intelligent theists can offer nothing rational...

But I guess you never get to see the "normalcy" of a theist you debate online online unless you engage in a great deal of general chitchat with them as well and that combo rarely happens....

Vork is right in that "Looks like he's just frustrated with the absurdities and stupidities of God-belief, and wants to let off some steam."

This is certianly true but as LD pointed out, fury is entering into my writings. I'm letting off steam with a sledgehammer....

[Vinnie]

""""""""""But anyway I do try to be nice to theists unless they give me any reason to ignore them or try to cut them down to size. I figure if I don't someone being unkind to me because I am atheist, it would be hypocritical for me to use their theism as a basis to be unkind to them."""""""""""""

Reciprocal altruism. Now you are speaking a language I understand but unfortunately theists do treat atheists like shit. They regard them with fear, suspicious and villany. They generalize, insult and attack us and we = minority. They = majority.

I'm not Jesus or a sky-pimple. At times I just don't want to turn the other cheek. Probably better ways than villifying back though...

In the past in some places our kind would be burned, tortured and forced to convert or killed by these "nice Jebus people" who are merely "doing the omnibevolent will of their sky-pimp". So who am I to complain? We got it good now. At least the theists don't torture us anymore.... :p

Vinnie

[Jakanapes]

If someone's faith guides him to make decisions that have negative consequences--such as a mother who cuts her baby's arms off and say that god told her to do it, well I have no respect for the beliefs nor for her.


To be a nitpicker, EXTREME post partum depression as well as possibly other mental illness was the cause for that. She attached her faith to her actions to justify it to herself. Mostly I pity this woman and her family and feel anger towards those who knew she was in a downward spiral and wouldn't get her the help she needed.

But I get your point.

I usually try to say to someone:

I respect your right to your beliefs...(until they cross my rights, that is)

I respect that you use those beliefs to make yourself a better person.

I respect that you have those beliefs.

Of course, I'm not using the term respect to mean admire. Merely to indicate that I'm aware that something exists, that there's a boundary there and that I have no right to destroy it maliciously.

[Dark Knight Bob]

I just got threatened with eternal hellfire for not agreeing with their (assumed to be God's) interpretation of what the afterlife holds for us.

Man this debate stuff is comedy gold!

I mean some of the christians I argue with even though they hold pretty extreme viewpoints on life with which I strongly disagree with I can still talk to them in a reasonable manner (afterall losing your rag isn't going to convince them of anything... if you're not oout to convince them then hey have fun :D )

This book, by the way, will judge you in the end. You will answer for your sin before Jesus Christ, God's appointed judge and your only hope for salvation.

Best of providence,

Burn in hell HEATHEN! Oh and have a nice day. :rolling:

[livius drusus]

Historically theists were far more likely to battle other theists, imo, but I find this kind of rationalization for treating theists like crap less than satisfying. As I've said many times, I live in the deep south and have never once been abused in any way by even the devoutest of Christians. Even online I've been treated far more poorly by "fellow" atheists than I ever have by theists. Perhaps it is, as you suggest, the topic itself that incites virulence, but if that's the case, then it's most assuredly an equal opportunity incitation.

So I guess I'd say that people who act like assholes online do it regardless of religious belief. You condemn theistic generalizations about atheists even as you make several less than flattering ones about theists. Meanwhile, EoG is replete with viciousness and self-righteous superiority complexes coming from atheists, as are PD, GRD and others.

I have no problem being nice to people who are nice to me. I have a big problem being nice to people who treat me like shit. Online, the latter group includes far more atheists than it has ever included theists.

[King Rat]

Their god doesn't spare the faithful of his wrath, why should I?

But seriously, I'm nice to theists all day long, 90% of the people I talk to and work with are theists. However, I'm not nice to the theists who preach to me. I find preaching to be rude and idiotic. If somebody farts in my ear, I'm gonna say something.

[socratoad]

One is going to lead a pretty narrow dull life anywhere on this planet if one goes through life choosing to show disrespect towards all theists. Its just the rabid fundamentalists that really incite me to lose respect for myself as their insistent nattering is enough to make a statue lose its composure.

Be very careful when traveling throughout the world though because demonstrating your democratic right to tell some fundamentalist sects just what you REALLY think of them often results in loss of life ..... YOURS

[Godless Wonder]

One is going to lead a pretty narrow dull life anywhere on this planet if one goes through life choosing to show disrespect towards all theists. Its just the rabid fundamentalists that really incite me to lose respect for myself as their insistent nattering is enough to make a statue lose its composure.

Be very careful when traveling throughout the world though because demonstrating your democratic right to tell some fundamentalist sects just what you REALLY think of them often results in loss of life ..... YOURS Which is exactly why religion needs to be shown, loudly and often, to be the stupidity that it is, so that there will be fewer theists making this planet that way.

[socratoad]

Which is exactly why religion needs to be shown, loudly and often, to be the stupidity that it is, so that there will be fewer theists making this planet that way.

Exactly, but I choose to show my disrespect toward the institution and not the individual, except as I mentioned above.

In short please feel free to indulge yourself in your magical beliefs, but stay the fuck out of my face with your evangelizing and your repressive laws.

I'm not an evangelist for atheism. I have absolutely no idea how to discuss reason with the irrational. All the information is readily available so if people choose to hide behind irrational faith there is nothing much I can do.

[Mathetes]

Vinnie,

I've been reading your posts since I started lurking around the Biblical Forum a couple of years ago. You were then a theist of sorts (I guess you could define this better then me ;) ), and you were defending your positions with the same passion that you have now, that you are in the dark side with the rest of us.

It seems to me that this is just the way you are: passionate about what you believe. There's nothing wrong with that. If you are experiencing some more anger than usual right now, just take it easy, relax, go out for a walk to pick up chicks instead of reading too many Internet forums and it will pass away. But don't try to fight it too hard.

It's not that religious arguments are gonna look anything less than pathetic, ever. But at least you may not be annoyed by them that much. We can endure them as any other inconvenience in life (like cold weather or a bad boss), live with them, occasionally laugh at them, and maybe, if we are lucky, show how stupid it is to some of the least brainwashed. A good dosis of cynical sense of humor is also good, and it helps to blow the steam without having to get angry.

But you are never going to think that religion is not idiotic, because... well, it IS idiotic. There's no scaping than.

Man, I hope I don't sound like a preacher. :)

Side note. I cannot understand why calling a fantasy "sky pimp" is offensive for some Christians, but they telling us that we are horrible human beings and that we deserve to be tortured eternally is not.

Their god doesn't spare the faithful of his wrath, why should I?
Exactly.

[Vinnie]

I just found a quote and it made me think of this thread:

George H.W. Bush, as Presidential Nominee for the Republican party; 1987-AUG-27: "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." 1

Not sure how reliable it is though...found it on religious tolerance....

Vinnie

[JohNeo]

To be a nitpicker, EXTREME post partum depression as well as possibly other mental illness was the cause for that. She attached her faith to her actions to justify it to herself. Mostly I pity this woman and her family and feel anger towards those who knew she was in a downward spiral and wouldn't get her the help she needed.



I think that basically underpins my point. When faith usurps responsibility and/or good behavior, then it is worthless and inexcusible. "God will take care of it" is probably the attitude that Mr. Schlosser and others close to Dena Schlosser took. I am suspicious as to how Mrs. Scholsser was, according to some sources, an admirer of the charismatic church leader (a self-proclaimed prophet, no less :eek: ) and yet the church basically claims that they were only casual attendees of the church. Hell, if a one-time visitor of the church were to be the first person to set foot on Mars, the church would proudly proclaim that person as one of their own. :rolleyes:

I'm sure no spiritual leader in a major metropolitan area would in his right mind tell a congregant to sever her babies' arms. But for as much emotional capital as she apparently had invested in the church, the church sure is giving her the cold shoulder now. What a bang-up job they did channelling the holy spirit into her.

JohNeo

Afterthought: In the Old Testament part of that divine word of God, we hear of a father who almost slayed his son, because God was testing his faith. How hypocritical that this was a noble act and a true demonstration of faith, because it appears in the word of god, but then Mrs. Schlosser's act was insane. Why can't the Christians accept that Abraham (or the Abraham character) was a nut job too? Or that a God who hath commanded us does not necessarily have our best interests at heart? :huh:

[Toto]

Hi Vinnie - that quote is possibly correct, possibly overblown. You notice that GHW Bush's son, the current president, is always careful to say that you can be a good American if you do not practice religion.

But I was just lectured here about being nice to smokers. It's a hell of a lot easier to be nice to theists (in real life, anyway) than to be nice to smokers.

So be nice to theists when you meet them. But don't feel the need to be nice to their beliefs. Don't let them try to confuse their beliefs with themselves.

[SLUGFly]

First, King Louie, you rock. I sense through your writing that you've got a very deep pool to draw water from and that something's not quite right in your bucket. An excellent combination.

As for the topic. I used to go to www.foolmoon.com quite regularly, pretty much everyone their is a... theist isn't really the right word but I'll say, a believer in superstitious powers (theists, buddhists, wiccans, etc.) I found many of them to be very kind, warm people. I think that if you can actually get to know somebody then you get past their instinct to convert (something that most atheists have also, which is what causes the conflict, conversion vs. conversion). Once past their instinct to convert you just have to blink a few times and swallow hard to get past the "god bless"es and etc. and then it's smooth sailing. I've found some rather engaging threads on religious boards, although piety never fails to inspire my warpaint.

I was once a Christian, and I killed God, but after it was all said and done and I threw on the ceremonial first shovelful of dirt I couldn't put myself to remove my warpaint. My Christian instinct to "spread the good news" could not be killed, and so now I try to free people from this addictive (and very dangerous) drug that leaks out of the cross. I've found however that online is not the place to do this because nobody can be "converted" online. People will immediately ignore anything that doesn't line up with what they already believe or at the most will read just enough to decide what ammo they should use for their next shot.

An anecdote: I was walking through a park here in Korea (I'm canadian) and I saw an incredibly graphic picture, two of them actually. One of Jesus on the cross with blood, thorns, tears, nasty and shocking. The other a very realistic painting of people burning in Hell. I was stunned, I stood and stared at it. After a while a guy came over to me and spoke (in good English) "Do you know Jesus?"

Me: "Yes."
He: "Oh, you're a Christian."
Me: "No."
He: "But you said you know Jesus."
Me: "Jesus told me that modern Christianity has mutated from his original intentions and is now evil. We are in the endtimes of Revelations and as the book said, God has abandoned the Church to Satan."

Me speaking in metaphors so that we can both speak the same language. He was furious, but unable to fight back. In the end he called me a sinner and a liar. In all my dealings with Christians that was the first time anybody had ever called me a sinner (without including all of humanity in with the judgment) and the very first time I've been called a liar. I was thrilled, invigorated. Power! We fought, but where I was weaving, thrusting, parrying, he was hacking blindly hoping to hit his target. This I did, and enjoyed (nearly every person I've told this too was disappointed in me or even disgusted that I enjoyed verbally abusing this person, despite the fact that I used no insults whatsoever but simply ideas). But this I did in real life when I was approached as a target for "the Holy Spirit." Every single attempt I've ever made to do anything like this online has led to nothing but senseless flaming and insults until I end up being banned. (since moderators always favor the "good" person... and it's usually... er... Christian forums).

This is not to say that my blood doesn't get hot when I hear somebody presenting a ridiculous arguement though... but bite your lip (or fingers) and keep looking till you find somebody that's on the cusp of enlightenment, there are a few Christians and quite a few theists in general who have an open outlook on life and who can even join you in a few friendly sparring matches now and then (provided the gloves stay on.)

-Kinglouie... pizza huh? It's a big world, but are you from Canada?

[KingLouie]

No man, I'm from Alabama. And I think that, if I were to actually step off the bus in Canada, my spoiled-rotten Southern skin would probably jump from my skeleton and get back on the damn bus. It's 50 degrees outside right now, here in Mobile, and my index finger fell off a few minutes ago. Just the mere thought of being from Canada bout made my nipples go hard.

I'm glad a couple of you liked what I wrote. It's hard for me to write stuff on this website, being who I am, having all the thoughts that I have, without being at the center of a fight all the time. I hate fights, I hate misunderstanding, I hate hate -- no matter what sort of wrapping we people try to dolly it up in. That's why I responded today to this thread, and honestly, I feared my words might lead to such a thing. It didn't, though, and I'm starting to find that people are pretty cool across the boards -- they just don't want to be bullcrapped, and that's respectable. I don't want to be bullcrapped either, but then, I don't want to be ram-rodded in the name of "I'm just trying not to bullcrap. Sue me, but I'm trying not to bullcrap." It's kind of like saying to your mom, "Hey mom, you've got a big ugly nose. I'm sorry if you disagree with me, or if that makes me sound mean and insensitive, but I'm only trying not to bullcrap." I don't know man. I wish I could fix everything -- and even, yes, for anonymous people across the far reaches of cyberspace. But I can't, just like they can't fix things for me. We all have to, whenever the bullets hit the bones, fix our own dang selves. That's just the hard nature of life. Question is, will we be bullets, or will we be gauze?

I'm still attached at the fibers, though some may be thin. I will be gauze. I will be gauze, damn it all, till I drown in the blood of the wound.

I figger I'll keep writing on this website though, because right now, it's helping me deal with some trying stuff. But I am tired, I admit, and I've been tired for a while now; and I don't know how much longer I'm gonna do it, because the more I work this brazen body, the older and more skanked-out it becomes. (That includes my brain, too, by the way, and not just my rock-hard pecks and curly golden locks).

I'd rather not skank it all out -- my mind, that is, and my efforts -- if there's never any hope for good nookie for us people.

What's the "nookie," you may ask? Well hell man, I don't know. Not for sure. I think that if we did know, then we'd all be gittin some, and we wouldn't be so damn mad at people all the time. But this is a mad world -- I'm not disillusioned. I'm just looking for someone -- for anyone -- who is determined above all things to break the mold. It's a lonely world.

Until then? I guess we will have to learn to live with a "cognitive dissonance" amongst people themselves -- let alone the individual "cognitive dissonance" that lives in the mass "cognitive dissonance" of the people. You know: the same sort of thing that's been going on even before history books were a reality, if I had to guess at factual things outside of my current scope of knowledge, which I rarely like to do.

Onwards and upwards, though. And good nookie for all.

From the Jungles of Rock Hard Pecks,

Kang Louie

[Donald_McRonald]

Hey Vinnie,

I don't know if you've ever seen that old Dunkin' Donuts commercial -- the one with the old, tired fat dude. But it goes like this: this discheveld old guy rolls out of bed, and he's all obliterated with sleep. He walks into his kitchen all zombie-like, and he rubs his face and says, "It's time to go make the donuts."

Well, for the past year or so -- and especially for the past month or so -- I've been waking up the same way the Dunkin Donuts dude does. I wake up and I rub my eyes and say, "It's time to go make the pizza," and I say this because I make pizza for a living. There's just not much money in donuts, you know? Just look at Krispy Kreme.

But instead of going into the kitchen, I rub my eyes behind this monitor, while clicking on this website and reading all the stuff that's posted here; and I often click over to news sites and read all that stuff, and I mumble, "It's time to go make the pizza." I procrastinate, really, sometimes.

I always regarded that guy from Dunkin Donuts as someone who had made so many damn donuts -- who had done the same thing over and over again -- and so, it seemed to me, he no longer expected any more surprises from his day. And over time, I suppose, he had simply learned that a day of making donuts was probably going to be just another day of making donuts. There was no more expectation -- not of anything outside the norm. It was all going to be the same old thing.

I'm here to tell you, Vinnie, I'm kind of there, right now. This morning feels no different than it did yesterday, to be honest with you. I'm that guy, right now. I'm just here to make the pizza, again.

When I wake up in the morning, I know it's time to make the pizza. And when I click on this website, and when I click on the news, and as I'm rubbing my eyes and taking it all in, I know it's time to -- for the most part -- participate in the dialogue that seeks to devise lines between people, and the validity -- and credibility -- of one mode of thought over another. Or one action over another. Or one possession over another. And as my monitor wakes up, and as my dog comes to the stool and licks my leg to say, "Good morning, Kang," I know what it's time for: "It's time to read the struggles," I mumble.

I click on USA Today (because I'm a sucker for that sort of thing) and I see the pictures of Randy Moss mooning the Packers and all the people who are pissed by it, and I see the conservative news hosts who are paid by the conservative government to promote the conservative causes, and I see the recent beheadings and the Tsunamis and all the misery and fear and I say, "It's time to read the news."

Whenever I'm drinking my morning allotment of caffeine, I no longer have excitement or expectation of unearthing anything different or special or good from all this crap, because for so long, it seems to have been the same old thing: just a bunch of bad news. If there is some sort of "good" news out there, then it seems to be a drop in the bucket, especially to my slumber-ridden eyes, all downtrodden from the fact that soon, I'll only be heading out the door to go, yet again, endeavor to "make the pizza."

This morning was no different, I'm very sad to say, because whenever I was scrolling around with the same sort of squinty, sleepy eyes, I saw your topic heading here and I clicked on it, because it seemed to hint at something different -- something outside of the realm of another day of pizza-making. It said, "Being Nice To Theists." And for me, that sort of thing stood out as something rather progressive in light of the majority of other headings on this website.

But it wasn't. It was another pizza, for me -- and maybe it wasn't a pizza for you, but it was a pizza for me. And that's O.K., it's no big whoop. It's to be expected, really -- I know this. I understand it. And like you said -- and you were exactly right -- this is your online home. And you guys are, for the most part, a part of the same pizza mindset, just as those who might think like me (whoever the hell those might be) is of my same pizza mind.

But as for me, and my morning, it was simply another beginning of another day of making the pizza -- same as yesterday, and same as six months ago, and same, I regret to inform you, as a year ago. Things don't seem to change in this pizza factory, and that's O.K., so long as I maintain my integrity for striving to be a person who's not someone else's pizza.

But today, I readily admit, when I read this thread here, I almost became a pizza for you. I was extremely close, and I've been getting closer all the time, if you want to know the truth. It's a barrier I've been really trying not to breach, because it would be nothing more than me kneading a dough that I know not to roll.

When I read your post, and when I realized what you were saying, I was, in all honesty, pissed. And my first inclination was to emphatically and wholeheartedly go to war with you -- not that I could prove anything by doing it, but to hurt you like the words you wrote seemed to hurt me. And yes, Vinnie, it hurts me whenever I am included in such statements -- and I am included in such statements; but then, whenever I rub the last remnants of sleep from my eyes, I remember that you don't know me, and I know you don't know the inner complexities and intricacies that have led me to the place that I'm at -- or of all those other people in the world who have derived the same sorts of conclusions in theirs.

I know you don't know that, even though you may think you do; but still, my first inclination was to fight you tit-for-tat for it, because nobody likes to be called "stupid," no matter how you might seek to present it, and no matter how you might claim it's the "ideas" you are fighting and not the "people."

And so, in the end, I resisted the urge. It was harder this morning, but dang it, it was done. And no, it was not satisfying to resist -- nor is it still -- nor is it ever, to the state of affairs of my gut; but still, I refrained, save for whatever smarting this explanation might happen to unleash. I refrained from all-out pizza making with you, and I'll tell you why:

I don't want to be your pizza. And I don't want to be anybody else's pizza.

How the hell can I maintain what I believe, and then clamor for the outside of this human box that dictates I be a pizza to somebody else? Gee whiz, I read the USA Today and all I see are the people being other people's pizzas. It would be easy for me to say, "Damn man, those people are all just a bunch of pizzas," but that would be far too easy -- for me.

As for me, I want to do differently than to just swipe them all with the side of my hand. I want to give them all the benefit of the doubt -- from Randy Moss to the Olsen Twins, silly as it sounds. And do you know why? It's because I believe all those people feel like they are trying to do the best they can with this tumultuous-ass-life, and so they've figured that they have no other choice than to be someone else's pizza.

What's more, I also know that I don't know anything of what it's like to be anyone other than me. And since I don't know these things, the only thing I can do with my life is to concentrate on me not being someone else's pizza, because that's a lifelong affair -- for me. It takes every moment of every one of my days, and I simply have no energy left to point out the anchovies on someone else's cheese. Instead of exerting my time and energy pointing out that everyone else out there is a pizza, I try to become an order of chicken wings -- to be something different for other people's bloodshot, sleep-ridden eyes -- to be something better than that which a world before me so seemingly resigned to become.

Jesus dude, it has taken me all my life to figure out how not to be a pizza; and, when I read your message this morning, for some strange reason, I came extremely close to beackpedaling several steps -- perhaps backpedaling several years. I almost became your pizza.

But instead of all that cheese, I'll try very hard to leave you with this one conclusion I've made about you -- and I'll leave you with this revelation that you, in your striving, have helped me to achieve in this blood-shotty, coffee-drenched morning: you are not my pizza, not today. And nor am I yours. Not today.

And maybe tomorrow, whenever I click on this website yet again, I'll find me some delectable hummus, and some chocolate covered strawberries. That would be swell. And come tomorrow, when I roll out of bed, I'm going to keep looking for them, and I'm going to try to keep looking at people as if they are chicken wings, and not simply pizza, because how could I ever expect anything different out of breakfast, if all I brought to the table was a pizza myself?

And now, if you'll excuse me, it's time to go make the pizza. Contrary to recent hope and reason -- and contrary to the way things seem to be going down on the coast as of late -- I will, today, keep my eye out for a big, piping hot order of chicken wings. All spicy, and juicy, and covered with blue-cheese.

If I didn't ever hope to unearth anything different from our culinary selection in all our searching, then I doubt that this life would even be worth living. That's the way I see it, anyway.

And so, chicken wings? Here I come.

From the Jungles of Big, Blustery Brunch,

Kang Louie

Jesus Christ, dude, that was fucking brilliant. I don't get it, but it's brilliant.

[Stormlight]

But I was just lectured here about being nice to smokers. It's a hell of a lot easier to be nice to theists (in real life, anyway) than to be nice to smokers.

Yes, it must be really hard to be nice to people ... Clearly something you need to be lectured about.

[Fisher]

Yeah, I have the lack of respect thing. Not really anger... I just have no respect for their beliefs, and act like an asshat accordingly.

I seriously could never have a close friend who was religious. I would either distance myself from them because they're an idiot, or drive them away by constantly making fun of their beliefs.

:huh:

Wow Piscez, that really sucks. I promise you that I make a good friend.

One of my best friends is a very staunch atheist. I would have hated to have missed out on his friendship because of barrier like religion. I love him like a brother just the way he is. I believe that your closest friends are the ones that are the easiest for you to accept because you love them unconditionally.

My advice to you is to keep an open mind. You might miss out on someone extraordinary because of a predetermined notion.

[Jakanapes]

Afterthought: In the Old Testament part of that divine word of God, we hear of a father who almost slayed his son, because God was testing his faith. How hypocritical that this was a noble act and a true demonstration of faith, because it appears in the word of god, but then Mrs. Schlosser's act was insane. Why can't the Christians accept that Abraham (or the Abraham character) was a nut job too? Or that a God who hath commanded us does not necessarily have our best interests at heart? :huh:

And here's where that cognitive dissonance comes in.

My mother has worked in the mental health field for many years and has dealt with many people who claim to hear the voice of a god. They feel that they have been singled out for special purpose and are chosen. This is called a messiah complex and is a mental illness. These people were routinely locked up for the safety of themselves and the community.

However, Oral Roberts claimed that god appeared in his backyard and wanted him to raise 10 million dollars or god would take him to heaven. Normally, this fantastic claim would result in a trip to the nearest funny farm, but millions of dollars were sent in. Not the 10 mill, but to nobody's surprise, Oral was not 'called home'.

Similarly, a certain somebody claims that his god had wanted him to lead his country and had specifically chosen him for the job. Rather than seeing this for the instability that it is, the country elected him to the highest office. People forget the lessons of history. I'm thinking of another powerful leader who thought his god wanted him to lead his country to greatness...short little guy, funny mustache, rabid anti-semite, used to be a painter...you know who I'm talking about...

There have been several instances in the last several years of mothers killing their children because they believed god wanted them to. They were rightly thought to be insane by the general public. But when I ask theists.."How do you KNOW that god DIDN'T tell them to do that? If you believe in god and the bible and think that god is above judgement and that we should just have faith that there's a plan, then couldn't this be part of the plan?" I usually just get a sorta stunned look (deer in headlights) and they stammer out "God wouldn't do that.." It's useless to point out that there are countless examples of god doing EXACTLY that. It's extremely odd to me that these women are considered mentally unstable, but that televangelists who see visions are considered perfectly sane...

This is why I think that teaching religion to children ought to be a crime. It trains people to turn off the logical part of their brain and excuse any sort of nonsense as soon as they hear the magic word...'god'

[PinkPanther_04]

I've started thinking of theists the same way I think of people who read the National Enquirer and believe in the Lochness Monster. It's pretty much the same thing, really. I'm trying really hard just to be moderately amused by it instead of angry, but when this stupidity makes a negative impact on the world it does make me angry. It's just so unnecessary. But I'll keep trying to take it in stride, because the Earth's population isn't going to suddenly become logical overnight. I just don't understand why so many people believe what they do, though. Not at all.

[livius drusus]

This is why I think that teaching religion to children ought to be a crime. It trains people to turn off the logical part of their brain and excuse any sort of nonsense as soon as they hear the magic word...'god'

Oh? I went to Catholic school for 12 years. Many atheists received a religious education without turning off any part of their brain. Not that atheism is any kind of guarantee of logic, of course, or else hasty generalization fallacies like yours above would be virtually nonexistent on this forum.

[JohNeo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakanapes
This is why I think that teaching religion to children ought to be a crime. It trains people to turn off the logical part of their brain and excuse any sort of nonsense as soon as they hear the magic word...'god'

Oh? I went to Catholic school for 12 years. Many atheists received a religious education without turning off any part of their brain. Not that atheism is any kind of guarantee of logic, of course, or else hasty generalization fallacies like yours above would be virtually nonexistent on this forum.

Ummm, yeeeeahh, I'm going to have to disagree with you as well, Jakanapes. "Crime" is a strong word if you mean punishable by law. There you get into First Amendment issues. But the least we can say is that it is immoral and unethical, and detrimental to our advancement, to indoctrinate children into religion.

:wide:
Wow, sometimes it still feels weird to say such things. Kind of feels good though :devil3: . I had a girlfriend in high school who was agnostic/atheist and I was the good Christian boy. I was so taken aback when she said if we ever had kids (yes, we really did talk about that :rolling: ), she would not want to raise them in the church but would instead let them decide for themselves. I remember saying "oh, like you think they would choose it for themselves? That's why you have to raise them to believe."

How wise I was at the age of 17 :Cheeky: .

JohNeo

[Vorkosigan]

Oh? I went to Catholic school for 12 years. Many atheists received a religious education without turning off any part of their brain. Not that atheism is any kind of guarantee of logic, of course, or else hasty generalization fallacies like yours above would be virtually nonexistent on this forum.

You mean the hasty generalization problem of generalizing from a sample of one case? Yes, I can see what you mean. Logic is definitely a problem for some atheists.

Vorkosigan

[livius drusus]

You mean the hasty generalization problem of generalizing from a sample of one case?

Yes.

Yes, I can see what you mean. Logic is definitely a problem for some atheists.

Isn't it though? I guess it doesn't take God belief to turn off parts of a brain.

[Vorkosigan]

delete

[Stacey Melissa]

Vinnie, I can sympathize with much of what you've said. I started a similar thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=111784) a few days ago. I really don't feel all that great for doing it now, but I'll do my explaining as to why that is with an update to my own thread.

[Jobar]

Vinnie, take a looooooong step back.

A thousand years ago, frankly admitting atheism anywhere in the world was all your life was worth. You might be burned at the stake, or beheaded, or have your heart torn out of your living body.

Now, we live in a nation whose founders, at least, saw the dangers of religion and attempted to craft a government which could deal with the fact that most of the populace believed in angels and demons and other boogiemen.

Today we have places like Internet Infidels, where we unbelievers can meet believers on a level intellectual playing field; where we have lists floating around of the believers who have listened to us, and have come to understand how irrational and inhuman are/were their beliefs- and then discarded their ancient superstitions, and joined with us. (And aren't you, in fact, one of those- along with ex-preacher, and rainbow walking, and clearscreen, and many others?)

Vinnie, though I am aware of 2 atheists here who became theists, 1 I think was dishonest, and 1 was mentally unstable. (And he still vacillates between unbelief and some strange new-age belief, which he claims relieves his death-fear.) We're winning!

Yes, it's a slow hard slog. Yes, there are still vast numbers of the fearful, the stupid, the brainwashed. Yes, there are those who would gladly plunge us back into barbarism, and kill anyone who denied their particular insanity- but they get fewer every year.

I'm not going to tell you you shouldn't be angry. Who here doesn't have first-hand knowledge of the awfullness which blind belief can cause? Who denies the holy horrors which litter human history like butchered corpses on a battlefield?

I'm not saying you shouldn't be afraid. Though we who post here at II aren't in any serious danger of some fatwa-weilding murderer-for-God coming screaming through our doors seeking our heads, we all know that such maniacs exist, and would kill us all if they could.

But I *will* tell you that if you let your fear and anger rule you, if you let your hatred (however justified) override your reason, you set back the very cause of reason we here are struggling to support. And you destroy your own hope of living a brave and proud, a good and beautiful, a calm and rational life.

Vinnie, none of us will live to see reason and freethought and humanism triumph. Given the nature of human beings, that day may never come. But if you give up hoping for that, and working for that- it'll damn sure never happen!

So- my advice (this being SL, advice is what we do here, eh?) is to take a step back from posting. Don't burn yourself out here- you sound like you're pretty close to that. You need a vacation from these intellectual salt mines- try walking away from your computer for a week or three. Watch some comedies. Listen to Bach. If you can get to a beach, take some long solitary walks. Build a campfire and stare at it for hours. Take a break from your routines, as much as you can. Breathe deep, clear your mind, look for the joy of being alive.

Then come back and see if II looks a little less like a constant :banghead: .

[Vinnie]

""""""""""If you can get to a beach, take some long solitary walks."""""""""""

Its thirty degrees outside!!!!! :p

Other than that.....very nice post.... :)

[Vinnie]

Hi Vinnie - that quote is possibly correct, possibly overblown. You notice that GHW Bush's son, the current president, is always careful to say that you can be a good American if you do not practice religion.


But this is what I want to know:

If all the voters who vited for him heard that quote and knew that as his position would thye still vote for him?

And if he instead said: "No, I don't know that blacks should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. They are not people.

Or

"No, I don't know that women should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. Men are heads of the household, they do the fighting and women are to submit to their authority.

Now suppose he said one of those latter two and it was publically known. I'd bet he'd lose a HELL OF A LOT more votes in that case rather than by saying "I don't know atheists" are people.

We're fecal matter, dude.

Vinnie

[Vinnie]

And another thing bothering me is my "arrogance".

You engage theists over and over again and they constantly say things that appear so absurd and stupid it tends to give one a "I'm better attitude". Its almost to the point where I don't want to even debate with theists anymore. I have the "they are so incredibly ignorant and closeminded" thinking problem now.

But I do want to activly engage theists cause I believe in the great commission. I'm a pawn of Satan and I want converts to the atheist flock ;)

I think I've discovered some other troubles I've been having. They are unrelated and are leading to increased tension and aggravation in other areas. I've been nixing these other issues....

Vinnie

[Godless Wonder]

I just found a quote and it made me think of this thread:

George H.W. Bush, as Presidential Nominee for the Republican party; 1987-AUG-27: "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." 1

Not sure how reliable it is though...found it on religious tolerance....

Vinnie

That quote is suspect.... however (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=100945&highlight=Bush+college+station)....

[Vorkosigan]

You engage theists over and over again and they constantly say things that appear so absurd and stupid it tends to give one a "I'm better attitude". Its almost to the point where I don't want to even debate with theists anymore. I have the "they are so incredibly ignorant and closeminded" thinking problem now.

Welcome to the club, man. Remember when you came here and we engaged you? And you thought we were arrogant...... :D

Also, this is a phase, which will pass. I go through it from time to time. All theists can be saved, you know. If you only find the right thing to say, if you only plant that little seed of reason, it will grow like a mustard seed....and we need to take the time because everyone who deconverts is more or less one less point of mindless support for the Bush Administration....

[Raza]

I've got that problem in a rather large way. And the same one with social conservatives, really - although that and theism often go together.

When we're just socialising or talking about something else, I can leave them alone... but even if it just comes up, not aimed at me, I find it difficult not to comment. Which usually results in debate. And well... when I'm debating someone of either of those two groups on those topics I can display a sheer cold contempt that's just... well you get the idea.

And while I do it without directly insulting whoever I'm debating, and while I must admit I enjoy it, and while it can even be said it's completely deserved, I can only assume it makes these people a lot less inclined to debate me and others with my stance on the issues. That's not a good thing, obviously, even if it's 'justified'.

So yeah, I could use a quick course 'being nice to idiots' myself.

[Harumi]

I think the problem with being nice to theists is just that: We think they're idiots.

Just as we don't react very well to a theist telling us that we're wrong, they're right, and that we're going to hell, it's pretty tough for a theist to react well to a person who thinks they're stupid.

If we stop thinking of theists as stupid, that may help in the niceness category. When I start getting angry, I just remember to think that they're different. Yes, we disagree, and I feel there are flaws in their belief, but I won't think they're stupid. Hell, a lot of us were once theists too. I was one, not Christian, but there was a time when I wanted to become a nun. It was because an atheist friend of mine asked me question that I started revising it. If he had thought me stupid, I wouldn't have even listened to him.

I can get angry with misrepresentation. I can get angry with people who are ignorant, or aren't willing to learn. I think this is an aspect of that many atheists hate when arguing with theists. But that's not stupidity is it? Ignorance can be cured, but not stupidity. And willful ignorance and misrepresentation is an indication of a far greater flaw than stupidity that is, as far as I am concerned, more than scorn worthy.

You won't know that they're any of those things until you get to know them, so it's only fair to regard them as people who think differently from you before you 'give it to them'.

How to be nice to theists? They're people with flaws just like you. I'm not better than they are, and they aren't better than me. I'll be nice to them until they start doing some of the things I listed above.

Sometimes I slip and I get frustrated and say "Theists are all stupid!" Or I say "Christians are stupid" or "Muslims are stupid." Unfortunately I'm only human, and I get mad.

I can only apologize and try to better myself.

[Jakanapes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakanapes
This is why I think that teaching religion to children ought to be a crime. It trains people to turn off the logical part of their brain and excuse any sort of nonsense as soon as they hear the magic word...'god'



Ummm, yeeeeahh, I'm going to have to disagree with you as well, Jakanapes. "Crime" is a strong word if you mean punishable by law. There you get into First Amendment issues. But the least we can say is that it is immoral and unethical, and detrimental to our advancement, to indoctrinate children into religion.

Darned double edged First Amendment! :Cheeky:
Truthfully, if it WAS a crime, I'd secretly think it was a good thing that it was outlawed, but I'd fight for the first amendment. It's tough sometimes to believe so strongly in opposing things (freedom of speech, religion, the whole shebang vs. a rather strong suspicion that the world might be a better place with a lot more skepticism and freethinking).

I'd love for someone to do an experiment. Raising a group of children completely secularly, teach 'em the scientific method and skepticism. Don't teach 'em anything about religion at all, even that it exists. Then at the age of 18, let 'em loose into the world and see if any of them become believers of any religion or not. It's not a terribly feasible idea, but I think it would be incredibly interesting.

[Jakanapes]

I think part of the problem lies in how these things are discussed. As an atheist and a lover of logic and reason, I expect people to apply reason to all aspects of their lives. Thus, I get frustrated and annoyed when theists who I consider to be otherwise very intelligent and skeptical will say things like "Well, the reason there are flood stories all over the world is because all of humanity is descended from the humans on the Ark." That floors me.


I had someone say to me once that they just hoped I didn't think that faith was irrational. I was kinda surprised they would even ask that!

"Of course faith is irrational, that's why it's distinguished from reason."

I find that I actually have more tolerance and respect for the theists who simply say that they believe and they're happy and there is no need for them to try to explain it. It's the ones who twist and destroy reason and logic in vain attempts to justify belief in illogical things that make me want to tear my hair out.

[Green]

No man, I'm from Alabama. ...snip...

Onwards and upwards, though. And good nookie for all.

From the Jungles of Rock Hard Pecks,

Kang Louie

I have lurked these forums for near three years now Kang Louie. I am an atheist and I stick mostly to reading PD cause I'm not the brightest cookie in this particular jar. I can't speak for anyone else but these three years of mostly just reading and no one has written like you man. It's funny cause I mostly come here to find people I agree with and funnily enough the person I agree with the most believes in God. Funky as hell. Somehow you're pieced together pretty well; you're a damn good reason to believe that it isn't theism or atheism that makes good people.

[Jean Valjean]

Vinnie, you said :-

Revealed religions are wickedly stupid. I am ashamed I was ever a part of one. Theists keep saying and promoting arguments that are so god damn stupid its driving me nuts.

May I inquire whether you think it is stupid of theists to make unsubstantiated claims?

As you have attempted no substantiation of your own claim quoted above, in your opening thread, how should that lack of substantiation be viewed?

Has your dislike of your former beliefs reached such a stage that you no longer feel obliged to substantiate your current positions?

Jean Valjean

[Stacey Melissa]

Vinnie, and most of the rest of us around here have already substantiated our atheism and/or agnosticism many times over. We don't have to re-substantiate them every single time we say something on the topic.

Besides that, Vinnie is talking to a sympathetic audience. He doesn't need to waste his time arguing for atheism/agnosticism in front of people who already agree with him anyway.

[Jean Valjean]

Unsubstantiated claims are Unsubstantiated Claims

Ad Hominem Abuse is Ad Hominem Abuse

Repetition of any of these is contrary to intellectual rationality and indicative of unsupported gross bias

If theists did it you would jump on them for doing it

What gives non-theists a licence to make abusive unsupported claims while you hypocritically criticise theists for not supporting their claims?

If Vinnie wants to spew vitriol he should start a thread titled "Unsupported Vitriol" and we could all ignore it.

Jean Valjean

[Stacey Melissa]

Take a look at the forum you're posting in, Jean. This isn't a debate forum. This forum isn't even focused on having theists participate all that much. If you want debate, go to the upper forums.

[Jean Valjean]

I thought the title of this thread was "Being Nice to Theists"

In what way was I not discussing that topic and Vinnie's first message?

I notice whenever a non-theist is cornered they try to change the subject

Vinnie was engaging in pure vitriol with no justification

His first message is the proof

Jean Valjean

PS Calling people stupid without explanation is I suggest a good definition of stupidity and proof of inability to argue coherently

[Face]

Although I understand your interest in participating, Jean, Secular Lifestyle is off-limits to promoting theistic viewpoints or defending same.

- Face, SL Moderator

[Stacey Melissa]

Vinnie isn't trying to make an argument here. He's just venting. He does his arguing in the upper forums, and in other places that are more appropriate than the "Secular Lifestyle" forum.

[Sparrow]

Revealed religions are wickedly stupid. I am ashamed I was ever a part of one. Theists keep saying and promoting arguments that are so god damn stupid its driving me nuts.

May I inquire whether you think it is stupid of theists to make unsubstantiated claims?

As you have attempted no substantiation of your own claim quoted above, in your opening thread, how should that lack of substantiation be viewed?

Has your dislike of your former beliefs reached such a stage that you no longer feel obliged to substantiate your current positions?

Jean ValjeanWhich claim of Vinnie's do you feel was unsubstantiated?
- Revealed religions are wickedly stupid. You quite possibly agree with Vinnie on all religions except your own. Personally, I think some are dumber than others. What was your take on 'Heaven's Gate'?

- I am ashamed I was ever a part of one. I think Vinnie is the only one who could substantiate this claim, if indeed it needed any further substantiation.

- Theists keep saying and promoting arguments that are so god damn stupid its driving me nuts.Possibly there are some questions and arguments not related to theism that also drive Vinnie nuts and possibly there are some theistic arguments that Vinnie finds interesting or challenging, but Vinnie's claim that theists use arguments that are stupid seems a little obvious. Sort of like claiming the sun will rise tomorrow. Sadly, theists have no monopoly on stupid arguments as I imagine you might be thinking right about . . now.

As to your specific questions, making unsubstatiated claims is not in and of itself stupid (regardless of whether one is a theist or not), but it might be stupid to make them in the wrong time and place. It might even be stupid to make a substantiated claim in certain places and times. I view Vinnies OP as nothing more than an attempt to blow off steam and commiserate among friends. Maybe get some pointers on how to be polite and respectful or even just get the discussion started. I see no ad mominem attack, only Vinnie describing his personal experiences (which seem to match up with my own). People do continue to use discredited reasoning and evidence. It's frustrating.

I do not find it hard to be nice to theists when they do not act as if they possess ultimate truth. It's fine for them to believe they do as long as it's not rammed down anyone else's throat. In return, I'll avoid ramming my beliefs anywhere.

[KingLouie]

Green,

You have absolutely no idea how much those things you said meant to me today. On one of the worst days of my entire life, your words were like a beakon in the fog -- and though the beakon may have been distant and dim, it was, after all, still there.

Thank you so much, whoever you are.

From the Jungles of Many Thanks,

Kang Louie

[Vinnie]

I think the last posters answered these charges well enough but I'll respond as well:

Vinnie, you said :-

Revealed religions are wickedly stupid. I am ashamed I was ever a part of one. Theists keep saying and promoting arguments that are so god damn stupid its driving me nuts.

May I inquire whether you think it is stupid of theists to make unsubstantiated claims?

It depends on the context. In a debate statements premises have to be argued. In a Secular Lifestyle forum with atheists and agnostics I do not have to justify anything in my OP. Many others here have felt the same way. It was to them and to others who have felt this way and feel this way I was posting to.

As you have attempted no substantiation of your own claim quoted above, in your opening thread, how should that lack of substantiation be viewed? Has your dislike of your former beliefs reached such a stage that you no longer feel obliged to substantiate your current positions?

What would you like me to substantiate? Atheism? What God//gods do you believe in? Pick a related//relevant topic of discussion. I'll go create a thread in an upper forum just for you :)

Vinnie

[Jean Valjean]

I would just like you to substantiate your initial claim that revealed religions are wickedly stupid, if you would be so kind

Jean Valjean

[Never]

<snip> In a Secular Lifestyle forum with atheists and agnostics I do not have to justify anything in my OP.

This is spot on.

What would you like me to substantiate? Atheism? What God//gods do you believe in? Pick a related//relevant topic of discussion. I'll go create a thread in an upper forum just for you :)

Vinnie

This also is the correct response. Now if Vinnie chooses to create said thread in one of the upper forums, he can add a link in this thread.
Otherwise any requests for him to substantiate his claims/beliefs/whatever IN THIS FORUM end here.

Thank you,
Never
SL Moderator

[Vinnie]

I would just like you to substantiate your initial claim that revealed religions are wickedly stupid, if you would be so kind

Jean Valjean

Here you are, sir:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=2131210#post2131210

and back to our regularly scheduled discussion:

Was I nice in that OP there? I tried. I really did. Didn't use sky pimp once!!! ;) :D

[EverLastingGodStopper]

Vinnie, and all, please PM me with your email address. I have a nice essay called "Getting along with believers. A Humble Beginning," by <edit>, presented to the North Texas Church of Freethought on 07-Sept-2003. It's in a Word document. Excerpts:
... We are supposed to be rational. Although we often act toward a position that is ultimately rational, along the way we often insult, disrespect others, look down arrogantly on others and simply make no effort to understand or reconcile. We do not look at ourselves nearly enough to see what image and message we are giving to others. We act collectively like a Commander Data from Star Trek where he would state facts without understanding that they were socially inappropriate at various times. ...

... we often and frequently attack those from whom we wish respect. That is, the Godless here have a march which is, in part, to wedge some respect out of others and what do we do? We say the exact words what complain about in the first place.

It’s fuel to the fire. Those who do hate us now have a reason to point at us and say what hateful people WE are.

Think of the Golden Rule. What if a Pat Robertson or for that matter an elected politician said, “I hate atheism.‿ We’d be all over it like flies to you know what.
<consistency>'s conclusion:
... We have to fundamentally change what WE are. Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong wrote a book called, “Why Christianity Must Change or Die.‿ Well I am suggesting that non-theism and particularly atheism must change or die. Of course not die… but stay slogging along on a road of doing nothing positive in particular.

It amounts to us changing our attitude. Look at them and treat them as you want to be treated. Don’t object every little time god is mentioned because it doesn’t really matter every little time. Think about how you represent “the WE‿ to all of them. Respect their views. Try to understand their concerns but express yours as well. Don’t belittle, be arrogant and presumptuous. ...
It's a good read, so drop me a line somehow and I will email the speech to you.