Asking for a little advice, please?

[Nanook]

I am going through this time in my life where I am realizing things aren't exactly as I had thought them to be...

I am confused about existence, spirituality, god, heaven, all of it. I don't really know how to begin so I will just get on with it.

I am about 95 percent sure of the non-existence of god. I was firmly set in my belief in god. I was always pretty vocal about it to my wife and son. They are beginning to see the change in my attitude toward church and god and the other day my wife was reading my postings about things here on the board. She is now very worried about me and thinks I will go back to the way I used to be, which is another story. My son also wonders why I do not go to church any longer. He often asks for me to take him, but I can't make myself go...

So I am wondering has anyone else encountered this problem. I know about COAS, her testimony has been inspiring to me. How do you let children know about these things? It will be very hard on him. I guess I almost wish I could go back to the way I thought before, it is almost like a part of myself is dying or is already dead.

Any thoughts you all might have would be helpful, you all have been helpful to me in the past.
Thanks, Jim

[Atheos]

Sure is a predicament, Jim. I don't have any ready made answers. I'd be sorely tempted to take my son to church, driven by guilt about his "needs", but then the question is, "am I doing him a favor by abetting his brainwashing?" Who knows.

Maybe you aren't as sure of your position as you think you are. Are you worried that you'll be damning your son if you confess to him about your worldview? Maybe it wouldn't hurt him as badly as you think to be honest with him about what you believe. You could show him how that his mother believes differently and he needs to weigh things for himself and come to his own conclusions when he's old enough.

I'm one to talk though. Nobody feels less adequate to raise a kid than I do after the job I did.

-Atheos

[Chicken Girl]

I think this is more of an SL topic.

[Nanook]

Yes, I feel like he might resent me for not believing what I preached to him so fervently. My wife is not particularly religious she just believes in god not christianity or any set religion. I am feeling like I would need to at least enable him to go to church, after all it helped both of us through some tough times. So sending him with my sister might be an option.

I don't know if I want to take the innocence from him. The same reason I don't tell him about Santa (I am pretty sure he knows about that) but it would hurt him a lot more. Who knows maybe coming to the conclusion that I have on his own might be better or not??

:confused: still puzzled, Jim

[Viti]

Perhaps a twofold approach.

1. Explain to him that sometimes people revise their positions, even strongly held ones. Demonstrate how this can be a good thing as we SHOULD evaluate our positions regularly.

2. Compromise on the church thing by having the whole family start going to a UU congregation. I hear they have an amazing comparative religions program for youngsters in place of traditional "Sunday School"

Best of luck!!

[SLUGFly]

Hi jim,

Perhaps my situation is a little similar to yours (but only a little). I was a passionate Christian on fire for the word, and my best friend was also in the same situation, except that he was much more "preachy" about his beliefs. Together (though not in the same stages or with the same results) we deconstructed our beliefs.

From your son's perspective: When this same friend starting becoming "preachy" about not being a Christian, it was very annoying. He felt flimsy to me, too passionate about something he just now discovered to be trustworthy.

Here's a little joke that illustrates my point: A man went on vacation and left his neighbor to check in on his cat and his aging grandmother daily. A week into the vacation he called his friend to ask how things are going and his friend said, "Well, you're cat died." The man was shocked. "How could you just say it like that? Didn't you realize how this would hurt me? You should have eased me into it, like the first time I called you could have told me my cat was stuck on the roof. Then the second time, you could have told me that he fell off the roof and was not doing well. Then the third time you could have told me that he died." The friend felt sad. "You're right, I'm sorry. I should have been more sensitive." "It's okay," the man said. "So anyway, how's grandma?" The friend said, "uh... she's on the roof."

Tell him god is on the roof :)

From your perspective: I couldn't really tell from this post how you yourself are handling this transition. For me it was a very dark, very painful experience. It was like going into surgery without anesthetic, but afterwards the surgery was succesful and I felt much better, healthier, stronger. There were two dangers for me, one was simply to switch heads on my idol (as so many do when they leave a religion, they just find another religion which is really solving nothing) and the other was to slip into complete worthlessness, which I barely avoided. Losing god is about learning to be completely self-reliant, realizing that there actually is no great daddy who's going to take care of everything. This is our planet and we are the ones responsible.

I hope I helped, although I can't really offer any advice on what or how to tell your wife and son, except that the more open you are the less shocked they'll be when you completely come open. If they're tolerant of your disbelief then I don't think there will be any household problems based on it (if you're tolerant of their belief).

[Jobar]

Losing god is about learning to be completely self-reliant, realizing that there actually is no great daddy who's going to take care of everything. This is our planet and we are the ones responsible.

Well said. I sometimes think that unbelievers are just more mature than believers.

Jim, how old is your son? If he's very young, you should be careful not to confuse him; younger children seem to either enjoy church for the Sunday School stories and activities, or to really dislike it (as I did). Apparently your son enjoys it, if he's asking about going.

If you're in or near a major city, I second LadyShea's suggestion to look for a UU church. Alternatively, you might consider making Sundays (or perhaps every second or third Sunday) an outing day with your boy. Take him to museums, or parks, or whatever he likes that is in your area. Give him as much of your time as you can.

If he asks you about religion, give him the best and most honest answers you know. Kids usually appreciate honesty (as do adults!) even when the honest answer is 'I don't know.'

[Nanook]

Well said. I sometimes think that unbelievers are just more mature than believers.

Jim, how old is your son? If he's very young, you should be careful not to confuse him; younger children seem to either enjoy church for the Sunday School stories and activities, or to really dislike it (as I did). Apparently your son enjoys it, if he's asking about going.

If you're in or near a major city, I second LadyShea's suggestion to look for a UU church. Alternatively, you might consider making Sundays (or perhaps every second or third Sunday) an outing day with your boy. Take him to museums, or parks, or whatever he likes that is in your area. Give him as much of your time as you can.

If he asks you about religion, give him the best and most honest answers you know. Kids usually appreciate honesty (as do adults!) even when the honest answer is 'I don't know.'

He is ten and is a very good and talented student and athlete. He credits god as giving him the will to do good and that is his testimony. (I was a Baptist) His testimony is very important to him, I don't know if I should mess with that because he really does love god. I wouldn't like to see him resent me for ruining his outlook. My wife will understand eventually, but he I'm not so sure would just get over it...

Jim

[Nanook]

What is a UU Church? I don't know what this is. We live in kind of a small somewhat conservative town.

[athee]

If I were you, I'd take your son out for a long walk and have a heart to heart talk with him. Kids have a knack for knowing when something is different. I'd be upfront and honest with him. Let him know that it wasn't an overnight decision, you really struggled with it, and you have decided not to hide anything from him.

I think you value honesty: how you manifest it internally (your now disbelief) and externally (how you communicate with your family).

my 2 cents

good luck whatever you do. :wave:

[Jobar]

UU = Unitarian Universalist. They accept outright atheists as members, though there is some tension between theists and atheists in some congregations. They're kind of rare; but you could try Googling for a list of congregations near you.

About the church your family has been going to- do they do a lot of stuff for youth groups? Does your son have a lot of friends there, or does it seem he is actually interested in the theology? (If he's that smart, you might consider looking through II for threads at his level. This is mainly a board for adults, but there have been many threads which I think a bright 10yo would understand- if you want to try this, start a thread with a title requesting threads suitable for a young boy. I'm sure people would help you select good ones.)

[Viti]

There are more UU congregations than I would have expected, even one in the little Alabama county we are moving to!

UU Association site with congregation locater (http://www.uua.org/)

[Ravon]

They are beginning to see the change in my attitude toward church and god and the other day my wife was reading my postings about things here on the board. She is now very worried about me and thinks I will go back to the way I used to be, which is another story. My son also wonders why I do not go to church any longer. He often asks for me to take him, but I can't make myself go...
Hi Jim, I am wondering if your son isn't picking up the worry that you mention your wife having about the way you used to be. He has seen a change in you but he may have noticed more of a change than that you don't go to church. I suspect, although I could be wrong, that your son, like your wife is worried more about you and the crisis of faith you are experiencing than they are about whether you are going to church. My advice is to get straight with your wife 1st. It might be that your son needs church less than he needs to know that his dad and mom are OK.

[spicy]

The suggestion that you attend a Unitarian Universalist church is an excellent one. I am agnostic and tried to go to church on and off over the years while my kids were young in order to expose them to Christianity so that they could decide for themselves if they wanted to believe its tenets. When they lost interest I stopped going to church, until a year ago when I was "forced" to go to church for a few weeks (my son's Boy Scout leader's mandate--don't get me started on that!) Someone suggested that I try the UU church and I have been so pleased with it that I rarely miss a meeting. They have a very active youth ministry: children are taught the beliefs and practices of the major religions, plus receive guidance in moral and ethical behavior. I wish I had known about the UU many years ago--I would have brought my children up in this religious community. I advise you to check it out for yourself as well as for your son.

[Columbus]

The suggestion that you attend a Unitarian Universalist church is an excellent one.

I couldn't agree more. UUA.org is the national organization's website. They have something called "The Church of the Larger Fellowship". It is specifically designed as a program for the support of the people who think like UU's, but are not physically located near a congregation or fellowship. I'm not a parent, so I have never explored CLF resourves for parents, but I'm sure they have them.

Unitarian-Universalism itself is a nationwide denomination that started out as two separate Christian denominations. As both denominations grew toward inclusive beliefs, facilitated by a Humanist outlook, they merged. This was in the late fifties. Rural Indiana has some congregations that include pagan, atheist, christian, and agnostic members. Rural Minnesota may also.

If it is any indication of the general inclusiveness of the UU they were the first denomination to come out strongly in support of gay marriage. They have a group called CUUPS, made up of pagan UUs. Their bi-monthly magazine "World" has a regular advertisement for polyamorous UUs.

I am confused about existence, spirituality, god, heaven, all of it. I am about 95 percent sure of the non-existence of god.
This will make you quite normal in a UU congregation.

At the UU church you will find that your theological beliefs or un-beliefs are an interesting feature of you, they do not define you.

Tom

[Nanook]

I will be checking this out and I've mentioned it to my son and wife they seem enthused about it.

So once again thank you all. :notworthy It is nice knowing I can find answers and advice from you guys when I ask, Thanks.

Jim

[Atheos]

Hey, I'm glad you've found something that may work for you. It's a difficult conundrum, there's no doubt.

-Atheos

[dcm]

May I ask what are you confussed about? I'm a firm atheist and don't have any problems about it. As far as taking your son to church, that would be simple for me, "I don't feel like going". End of story (and I dropped off mine a bunch of times too). My children are grown and religious; that's their business. I didn't support religion or atheism for them while they were young. That's their choice. I did make a post on "atheist have two choices" that you may find interesting in regards to "confussed".

DC

[Amanda Hugginkiss]

I'd like to second the previous post regarding children appreciating honesty. Religion was never discussed in my house when I was a child, and one day I must have heard about Christianity, because I remember asking my mom if there was a god. Her answer? "I don't know". Plain and simple. I realized then that my parents didn't have all the answers, which was a short step from no god having all the answers. I was briefly confused that there was something my mom didn't know, but somehow I managed to survive. ;)

If you're dishonest with your son now, think how he'll feel when he discovers that in ten or fifteen years. Would you rather he feel that all those special times he spent with you were a sham, or that you were secretly thinking he was ignorant in his beliefs while you were being outwardly supportive? Give the kid a chance, he might be more mature and understanding than you expect.

[Nanook]

I'd like to second the previous post regarding children appreciating honesty. Religion was never discussed in my house when I was a child, and one day I must have heard about Christianity, because I remember asking my mom if there was a god. Her answer? "I don't know". Plain and simple. I realized then that my parents didn't have all the answers, which was a short step from no god having all the answers. I was briefly confused that there was something my mom didn't know, but somehow I managed to survive. ;)

If you're dishonest with your son now, think how he'll feel when he discovers that in ten or fifteen years. Would you rather he feel that all those special times he spent with you were a sham, or that you were secretly thinking he was ignorant in his beliefs while you were being outwardly supportive? Give the kid a chance, he might be more mature and understanding than you expect.


Thank you also, just to let you guys all know...
I told him about this new church(I did find a UU about 45 miles away)and how we might possibly go.

I was amazed and dumbfounded when he replied,"Why would you go to church when you don't believe in god"
I honestly was shocked he knew. He wasn't mad or anything like that he wanted to go to church because he likes all the singing and fun that they have... he said he believes in god, he just thinks it is way different than the bible.

He said he knew because of IIDB he researched what it was and looked at the boards without logging in on my name. I guess that I underestimated him :o he is a pretty smart kid. I still can't get over it, he is only ten years old.

He showed me his Bible and it was full of highlighted passages and notes. He told me that these are the things that do not make sense to him. I would say that at least 1/4 of the old testament and quite a bit of the new testament have writing on them. So we will be going to our old church so that he can talk with the pastor and the youth minister about his doubts. If he is smart enough to go through his bible like that then he is going to figure it out on his own. I'm also looking for sources for him to look at about his doubts just so he doesn't get only one side of the story.(which is all he has gotten so far and he is figuring it out)

I am so proud of him! :love:

Jim

[Nanook]

May I ask what are you confussed about? I'm a firm atheist and don't have any problems about it. As far as taking your son to church, that would be simple for me, "I don't feel like going". End of story (and I dropped off mine a bunch of times too). My children are grown and religious; that's their business. I didn't support religion or atheism for them while they were young. That's their choice. I did make a post on "atheist have two choices" that you may find interesting in regards to "confussed".

DC


I would say confused about dropping him off. We have always been very close and do most things together. I also did not want to lead him down the wrong path and him hate me for it. This is a little bit bigger deal than him finding out about Santa or the tooth fairy. But I posted the answer to my own original post. Thanks for replying.

Jim

[Never]

Wow! That's a smart kid you have there.

It's been snowing here and I used the word "accumulate". My 12 year old asked me what it meant. I told her it meant it would stick to the ground and get deeper. She asked what "deeper" meant. :banghead:
My 14 year old and I just stared at each other in disbelief. I haven't decided if the 12 year old does this for the reaction or she really doesn't know things.

So you're quite lucky to have a kid that's not letting anything get past him.
I think you all will be just fine.

[Nanook]

Wow! That's a smart kid you have there.

It's been snowing here and I used the word "accumulate". My 12 year old asked me what it meant. I told her it meant it would stick to the ground and get deeper. She asked what "deeper" meant. :banghead:
My 14 year old and I just stared at each other in disbelief. I haven't decided if the 12 year old does this for the reaction or she really doesn't know things.

So you're quite lucky to have a kid that's not letting anything get past him.
I think you all will be just fine.

That also sounds like mine at times. The simple things seem to boggle him, but the more complex something is the more he has to figure it out.

That makes for a lot of dismantled toys, VCR, Radio, Models, Gameboy. I guess that is good and it is a whole lot better than not being curious about anything!

Jim

[JohNeo]

I'm getting in late on this thread, but it sounds like the situation is pretty well under control.

Most importantly, I think it's great that you and your son were able to have the conversation that you did. I think it's also helpful that your wife is not religious.

My upbringing was a little different. It was my mother who was (still is) religious and my father who is not. My father and I never had talks about religious or spiritual topics, even though my mother was pretty insistent that I go to church and Sunday school.

I did not fully renounce my faith until last spring at the age of 31, and only then was I able to have a long talk with my dad about my doubts. I was not terribly surprised to hear him tell me that he is agnostic, but I do often wish that we'd had that conversation when I was about 10 and actually questioned my beliefs.

I don't regret where I am today or how I got here, but I do realize I could have saved myself a lot of anguish along the way if I had known that non-belief was an option that could get the stamp of approval by at least one parent (pathetic, I know :rolleyes: ).

But on a more pleasant note, I can look back on some of my childhood memories fondly, knowing what I know now. The things my dad and I did together were often on Sundays--we went fishing and skiing on several occasions I can remember. And that meant getting a hall pass from church. He even let me play hooky from church one Sunday when I was 11, to take me to a pool hall :D .