Essay

[Bilbato]

I recently have had an interesting train of thought and I wish to try writing an essay of it. As I know little about specific locations of the texts, could anyone provide me with the Book, chapter, and verse in the Bible that talks about Jesus either healing the sick, divining knowledge, or controlling nature?

For those curious to know, the paper will end up trying to prove that Jesus was nothing more then a Shaman. :Cheeky: So I am going to have much fun with this, and below is my thesis so far. Thank you!!!!

I have often wondered, what is a shaman, and so I looked it up in a dictionary. There I found the definition as being a person “who acts as a medium between the visible world and an invisible spirit world and who practices magic or sorcery for purposes of healing, divination, and control over natural events.� According to the texts of the Christian Church, Jesus was the son of God who healed the sick, divined knowledge of people before meeting them, and even brought nature into his very will and controlled it. Thus, the man that Christians hold high is nothing more then a Shaman by this very definition. Using the Bible itself and the text there in, Jesus will be shown as the Shaman he was and not “The Son of God� as so often claimed.

[Vorkosigan]

Bii,

My Mark website has topical map (http://users2.ev1.net/%7Eturton/GMark/GMarkmap.html) that can take you to pertinent parts of the Gospel of Mark. Scroll down to the entry for "Miracles of Jesus" and click on what you want. Divisions by classification are not helpful. For example, when Jesus controls the water and stills the storm, he may not be not carrying out a "nature miracle" but exorcising a demon, since the language used is that of exorcism.

Vorkosigan

[Bilbato]

Thank you. I am sure that will be of much help. And though they may call it exorcising, many shamans do perform such things to people they believed are possessed. Or maybe I am just misinterpreting your words? And who knows how this entire essay thing will turn out. Not like it will be graded though. :Cheeky:

[Amaleq13]

Don't forget the "trial by ordeal" that is typical of stories about becoming a shaman. Jesus' 40 day fast in the desert followed by an appearance of Satan to tempt him fits the mold perfectly. Many shaman stories also feature a return from death so the resurrected Jesus could be understood as a SuperShaman. :)

[Bilbato]

Funny how a friend of mine was saying that I was being inappropriate in claiming Jesus as nothing more then a Shaman. My response was that is wasmore ridiculos and inappropriate to claim him as the son of "God." He seemed to be getting mad a lot about it. But oh well. he is a cool guy and if not for him, i would have never knew about IIDB. To bad he is just a lurker and has yet to post anything, to my knowledge. :p

And I never knew that Shamans had a "trial by ordeal" as you called it. I assume that is just something that once through, if you survive, means that you are meant to be a Shaman and have the right to claim yourself as one?

[Amaleq13]

Funny how a friend of mine was saying that I was being inappropriate in claiming Jesus as nothing more then a Shaman.

I took a class from an instructor who is a Greek Orthodox priest and he readily acknowledged that the story of Jesus fits quite easily with stories of shamans. We were specifically discusssing American Indian and Alaskan Native traditions but I'm pretty sure it is true of any culture with a shamanistic tradition.

And I never knew that Shamans had a "trial by ordeal" as you called it. I assume that is just something that once through, if you survive, means that you are meant to be a Shaman and have the right to claim yourself as one?

There is usually some sort of traumatic experience, often including a return from death, that fundamentally changes the perspective of the individual as well as granting supernatural powers.

[Bilbato]

There is usually some sort of traumatic experience, often including a return from death, that fundamentally changes the perspective of the individual as well as granting supernatural powers.

So at what point would Jesus' trial by ordeal have been? Would it be his crucifixion? To that I would say no, because he is reported to have performed supernatural acts before this.

So then would it be his 40 day long fast in the desert? And if it often has some association with a return from death, would that mean then that Jesus actually died twice? Once in the desert and once upon the cross? Or do not all trials involve a return from death?

And I find it fascinating that I am not the only one who has had this train of thought. It makes me feel less ridiculous and stupid. :cool:

[Toto]

I don't think that you should say that Jesus was "just" a shaman, as if shamans were nothing.

Google will tell you that a lot of people have had this idea before, in particular Stevan L. Davies Jesus the Healer: Possession, Trance, and the Origins of Christianity (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0826407943/internetinfidels)

There is also this:

Jesus and Paul as shamans (http://atheism.about.com/library/books/full/aafprReligionPaul.htm) Was Jesus a shaman? The resemblance between the reports of Jesus' life and the archetypical shaman's life are remarkable - indeed, it is easier to argue that Jesus was a shaman than that Paul was a shaman. Jesus spent a lot of time among the people, healing them as though they were afflicted with spirits and claiming as his source of power the Spirit of God, his Father.

It is curious, however, that his work as an exorcist tends to receive the least amount of attention among scholars writing about him, even though one of his first recorded public acts is an exorcism. Perhaps because, in today's "enlightened" age, the work of an exorcist seems embarrassing and primitive. By the same token, calling Jesus a shaman may seem derogatory, but it isn't really.

[Bilbato]

I don't think that you should say that Jesus was "just" a shaman, as if shamans were nothing.

Sorry, I did not mean to sound disrespecful as I greatly admire shamans and what they do, especially in this day and age. And I find it fascinating many of the alternative healing styles that are slowly being released and that are proving to be very effective methods that shaman have been practicing for millennia and we are only now saying, "hey, these people are really on to something here."

[andrewcriddle]

If one is interested in Shamanism could I recommend Shamans: Siberian Spirituality and Western Imagination by Ronald Hutton ?

It has an interesting discussion on the problems of using Shamanism as a category which includes many different spiritual phenomena in many different cultures.

Andrew Criddle

[Bilbato]

I will have to go to the public library here, I am sure they would probably have one, if not both of those. And I understand how generalized the term shaman or shamanism is. So, I could learn the traditional names from the different cultures that would be contained within shamanism and see as to which one of the many traditional names Jesus would most be accurate with.

[Amaleq13]

So at what point would Jesus' trial by ordeal have been?...So then would it be his 40 day long fast in the desert? And if it often has some association with a return from death, would that mean then that Jesus actually died twice?

Yes, the 40 day fast followed by Satan's temptation. Fasting for 40 days in the wilderness certainly threatens one's life and could bring one to the brink of death but the return from death isn't necessary. It is, however, a common theme.

[Bilbato]

Ok, so then one more question I have. With this essay, will I have to prove that Judaism has aspects of shamanism? Technically speaking, shamans can only exist in a society or culture that is shamanistic to my understanding. When removed from that society they become something else, correct? So for me to claim Jesus as a shaman, then I must logically prove that the culture he existed within was shamanistic. Or maybe I am just looking to indepth for this entire thing?

[Amaleq13]

Ok, so then one more question I have. With this essay, will I have to prove that Judaism has aspects of shamanism? Technically speaking, shamans can only exist in a society or culture that is shamanistic to my understanding. When removed from that society they become something else, correct? So for me to claim Jesus as a shaman, then I must logically prove that the culture he existed within was shamanistic. Or maybe I am just looking to indepth for this entire thing?

If he has to be called a "shaman" by his culture to qualify, he wasn't a shaman. But that is, IMO, an unecessarily restricted definition. You should be talking about the role the shaman plays in a given culture compared to the role Jesus played in 1st century Jewish culture. I think the type or role of a shaman was filled in ancient Jewish culture by miracle-working holy men. Geza Vermes talks about them in Jesus the Jew but there might be a better source fo which I am not aware.

[andrewcriddle]

If we're trying to avoid very vague uses of 'shaman' and 'shamanism' then I think it should be restricted to those who enter a trance or state of altered consciousness in the presence of those seeking their help and who in this altered state contact the spiritual world in order to provide that help.

The best biblical example of what I mean is Elisha in 2 Kings chapter 3 So the King of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the King of Edom went down to Elisha.......And Elisha said ".... But now bring me a minstrel" And when the minstrel played the power of the Lord came upon Elisha and he said.....

I don't think this sort of thing is typical of Israelite prophets and holy men in general or Jesus in particular.

Andrew Criddle

[Amaleq13]

I don't think this sort of thing is typical of Israelite prophets and holy men in general or Jesus in particular.

Is it typical of shamans across cultures? I recall it being described as part of the initiation experience.

It reminds me a bit of Paul's tongue-speaking congregations, though.

[andrewcriddle]

Is it typical of shamans across cultures? I recall it being described as part of the initiation experience.

It reminds me a bit of Paul's tongue-speaking congregations, though.

Isaiah having an 'out of body' experience in the (probably) 2nd century Ascension of Isaiah may be a better comparison than Paul's congregations.

My real problem is that if you define Shaman as someone in touch with the spiritual world in a special way, then, by that definition, I quite agree that Jesus is presented as a shaman in the Gospels. However this seems too broad a definition to be interesting.

If you define it more narrowly so as to make Shamanism one among several ways by which people have sought after spiritual reality then the resemblances of Shamanism narrowly defined to the picture of Jesus in the Gospels become much reduced.

Andrew Criddle

[Bilbato]

I would say that speaking in tongues would be a form of contact with the "spritual/spirit" world. Watching a show on National Geographic, tey talked about it, and what happens is that the state that they begin speaking in tongues is more of a self induced hypnotic state, much like what the Shamans do to contact the spirit world. And often it is the point of entering into that hypnotic state to speak directly with God and ask his help for healing or some other thing.

So it seems obvious to me, that even though they may not be called shaman, they very clearly perform shamanistic rituals. I mean look at communion, that is nothing more then a ritual "cleansing." So it seems very apparent and obvious to me that no matter how you argue it, Christianity and all other "modern" day religions are nothing more then specialized shamanistic religions.

Also, by referring to Christianity or Muslim, or Shamanism, you are taking on a generalized view of such things. As each person within those religions may have quite different beliefs. So if you want to be as anal as you are, then you shouldn't really even speak about Christianity, because so many people within the Christian faith have such different ideas and beliefs.

[andrewcriddle]

I would say that speaking in tongues would be a form of contact with the "spritual/spirit" world. Watching a show on National Geographic, tey talked about it, and what happens is that the state that they begin speaking in tongues is more of a self induced hypnotic state, much like what the Shamans do to contact the spirit world. And often it is the point of entering into that hypnotic state to speak directly with God and ask his help for healing or some other thing.


Cross-culturally 'speaking in tongues' seems similar to 'spirit possession'.

Most people trying to avoid a very broad definition of shamanism separate it from 'spirit possession'

So it seems obvious to me, that even though they may not be called shaman, they very clearly perform shamanistic rituals. I mean look at communion, that is nothing more then a ritual "cleansing." So it seems very apparent and obvious to me that no matter how you argue it, Christianity and all other "modern" day religions are nothing more then specialized shamanistic religions.

If you are saying that every religion that has ever existed is a form of very widely defined shamanism, then I agree that Jesus is, by that definition, presented as a shaman in the Gospels.

However I do not regard this as a particularly interesting result.

Andrew Criddle

[Amaleq13]

I think the idea of arguing that Jesus was "nothing more than a shaman" is doomed. You're probably better off with a compare/contrast essay.

[Bilbato]

Cross-culturally 'speaking in tongues' seems similar to 'spirit possession'.

Most people trying to avoid a very broad definition of shamanism separate it from 'spirit possession'

I would say that if you are researching anything that delves into the spirit world, then you cannot so aptly disconnect things. You may say 'spirit possession' is seperate from Shamanism, but that is wrong. In may cultures in which there is a shaman, they often deal with spirit possession of people.

If you are saying that every religion that has ever existed is a form of very widely defined shamanism, then I agree that Jesus is, by that definition, presented as a shaman in the Gospels.

I am not saying that every religion is shamanism. I am saying that all religions are "descendants" of shamanism and other oral religion. So to some degree or another, al religions have some aspects of Shamanism and those other oral religions. So though Christianity is not itself a Shamanistic religion, it does hold aspects of it. just as Christianity holds aspects of Judaism which it descended from.

[Vorkosigan]

If you are going to go with the Jesus = shaman position, how are you accounting for the sayings traditions?