Why bother? Athiest murdered, It bothers me, OK?

[makebate dags]

I found this article on the detroit free press news column today

http://www.freep.com/news/cfp/3/vshoot28_20041028.htm

It's really making me sad, that someone could be murdered for not believing in god. As far as telling others about my athiesm I just don't know anymore.

I can't even picture the roles being reversed in this situation. Where an old athiest man blows a christian away for his belief in god. But, why not? I'll tell you because he should have more sense, but Why didn't he just say, you know what your right man?

"God's real, bad joke. I was just testing your faith and you passed the test." Although the guy probably would have still killed him, in case he went back to not believing again, better get him while he's believing in god. Fuck!

It's this sort of violence that makes me wonder why I even gave a damn about what is true and what is not. Now, I know the truth but I can't say a word IRL without taking a chance that people will freak out.

Where I live that's a good chance. I'm thinking of getting armed to the teeth?

This is fucking insane I know, because all my good senses tell me I'm over reacting, but am I really?

How good would my logical arguments serve me looking up the barrel to a man who has his brain removed and thinks I have demons running around in my brain? wtf?

No wonder I've almost got myself to the point of seclusion except to go to work and come home. My beliefs are making me like some fucking captive?

You know the worst part is the skeptic in me tells me it's probably all just a hoax at this very moment I didn't even try and check the sources and all maybe I'll do that now. But, still this just sucks.

Freaking out - Tech Support - Please Help.

[Vinnie]

Is that a joke or is that actually real? :confused:

[makebate dags]

I have fairly verified the article as being true through multiple sources, although only one reporter it seems has covered the story, there is also a follow up as well.

I don't think that this incident fairly represents the other side, theist. For the most part. But, I still can hardly imagine these roles being reversed. ie; athiest killing christian for their belief(?)

http://www.humanistsnps.com/Article.asp?AID=211

Only Joel Thurtell of the Detroit Free Press has reported the story. His first article appeared on October 28. His follow-up article appeared on November 26. In the second article, Thurtell wrote that Shelton's attorney, Leslie Braverman, called the defendant "delusional" and "preoccupied with God". He filed for a competency hearing, which will take place on December 27.

They were roomates and this part is disturbing to me, as I live with and am within a strong religious family.

A call to Taylor police revealed no further details about Shelton's statements, but some of the language Shelton used is telling. The Bible refers to nonbelievers as "antichrists" three times, instructs believers to refuse to accept nonbelievers in their homes in another verse, and calls for the death of all nonbelievers in yet another.

The psychiatric definition of delusional is "holding a false belief strongly in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness". If Shelton's language is an indication of the source of his belief that Cooper was "the antichrist", Braverman must call the literal interpretation of the Bible false to call Shelton "delusional". If this argument is used to declare the defendant incompetent, then all fundamentalists who commit murder on this basis have the potential of being declared incompetent to stand trial, setting a dangerous precedent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit for research and educational purposes. HNPS has no affiliation whatsoever with the originator of this article nor is HNPS endorsed or sponsored by the originator.)

This may be discussed somewhere else on the forum I haven't checked as of yet, to what happened during the trial.

Still. This is some disturbing stuff to me. It's not that I'm afraid to die, but how come we can't force our beliefs on the christians to do something? Expose this garbage for what it is, and preach rational thought on television like a bunch of raving evangelist for reason.

Holy shit, halleluah, mark, matthew, and paul, holy crap! I need a drink. :banghead:

- drift

[Emp-JohnIV]

It seems to be real, although I can't find much more then the free press. It is kinda frightning but meh just be careful around shotguns.

[Vinnie]

""""""""Leslie Braverman, called the defendant "delusional" and "preoccupied with God". """""""


Those come standard with "theism"....

Wow, what a nut this guy was. Very sad.

Vinnie

[makebate dags]

Is that a joke or is that actually real? :confused:

Yep. I think so heres the follow up on Dec. 30th

http://www.freep.com/news/cfp/3/vshelton30v_20041230.htm

A man who claimed to have shot his housemate to death because the housemate didn't believe in God is not competent to stand trial for murder, according to a psychological report.


A hearing into the mental competency of Arthur Shelton had been set for Dec. 27 but was put off until April 4, said Taylor police Lt. Dan Crowell.


Shelton's mental state will be re-evaluated before then, said Crowell.

That fucking figures? Well then I don't know why April 4th?

Get this what should be an open and shut case of cold blooded murder, is what? Not competent to stand trial. I guess you have to find a jury that won't see this idiot as some kind of hero for gawd? He'll probably be back in church in no time. Geezus!

Makes me want to commit a random act of delusion, get some imaginary friends and go square dancing with them.

Tech Support - Tech Support - remember: Vanilla Sky

[Vinnie]

I guess stoning is passe even to whacko theists...

[makebate dags]

Also verified the officer who gave information about the Apr. 4th date. Who can be found on the taylor county website http://www.cityoftaylor.com/

There are lots of details that are verifiable including the address where the murder took place, time of call to police dispatch, etcetera. If you wanted I suppose a phone call to the police department or as far as going to the town to research this case further is a possibility. Sure.

I know folks are getting killed all the time. It's a damn shame I know but this one really caught me off guard as I gave it more thought.

Maybe I shouldn't think about it, but then again maybe we should all think about it, and maybe do something. I don't know. When's the shit going to end. I'm an athiest and I don't even want to kill anyone, from what I was taught as a child, unbelievers are all evil. Well I don't feel evil. I feel sick if believers such as this, can get away with committing murder in the name of gawd.

Of course many believers would probably be just as sick about this as me, but will they look at it, and think about what their stinking book calls them to do, telling them to murder unbelievers, is this true?

- drift

[makebate dags]

I guess stoning is passe even to whacko theists...

Yeah two shotgun blast and emptied five rounds from a handgun I believe.

Thanks.

Well whacko theists can apparently get psychiatric help after they murder somebody, I've got a list of people I know.

Do you think I can get them admitted before telling them that I don't believe in their god? Maybe there's a hotline I should call? If the spirit get's to moving over my house! I could tell some stories, oh yeah, I know some whacko thiest. I'm related to them.

- drift

[Vinnie]

""""""""This is fucking insane I know, because all my good senses tell me I'm over reacting, but am I really?"""""""""

Death is undesirable but I fear it not. Its non-existence. There is nothing to fear or feel. Its nothingness.


This story doesn't get me scared or nervous. Its strongly compelling me to go get a shir that says on the front:

I'm an Atheist.

on the back:

God Can Suck My Dick.

I like to stir shit up :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

I'll walk around the mall or the green downtown like that. Maybe I'll show up in a confessional ;)

Vinnie

[makebate dags]

I find it really makes me sad. Even though he might have been an asshole, the whole situation was nuts to say the least but whatever. What a way to die?

He tipped his hat saying he'd believe in god when gabriel trumps his horn.

The man who shot Larry later admitted some doubt.


At the police station, the suspect commented that he believed there is a God.

Then, looking at the floor, he seemed to have second thoughts: "Maybe there's not," he said.

Yeah, maybe there's not a god.

Well Vinnie, I've not been one to stir things up. I have a family that I love, and I guess they take some priority when I consider stirring shit up. Know?

Anyways, it might not make CNN or FoxNews but to me it's newsworthy.

So Larry Hooper, rest in peace fellow infidel. You may have at least made an fundamentalist theist doubt his god for a moment. I can almost tell by the report that he knew it was coming and stood firm anyways. Hell maybe they were both insane, how many need be killed, tortured and burned alive for the truth to come through? Maybe all of us, maybe none.

I know we have to die. But, regret. I can't seem to get past regret. Even if I had no fear, or no longer cared to live, to think of it still is the regret.

Of course once I'm already dead, how then shall I return to know what I will be missing. I won't. That's the facts of life, it can be no other way. So I guess that's a happy thought, that once I'm dead, I won't really be able to miss being alive, death can't then really be experienced so yeah, then comes the rest. That keeps on resting.

- drift

[Narapoia]

Any money the story would have been on fox or CNN if the athiest had killed the other guy for believing in god

[Vinnie]

I got theist family members too. Some very close ones.

I aint worried about the ones I really like and am close to leaving. They'd still be there...till the bitter end.

But if by the off chance a relative chose an imaginary friend over me, fuck em both!

Vinnie

[Penumbrae]

The Bible refers to nonbelievers as "antichrists" three times, instructs believers to refuse to accept nonbelievers in their homes in another verse, and calls for the death of all nonbelievers in yet another.

I know this is off-topic, but would anyone happen to know offhand where these passages are? I'd especially be interested in the last one.

[makebate dags]

I know this is off-topic, but would anyone happen to know offhand where these passages are? I'd especially be interested in the last one.

I don't think it's off-topic at all. Seeing as this seems to be the motivation for the murder. When that dupe realizes the truth, that he's been taken in by a shoddy rendition of old sun myths, legends and fables. He will likely kill himself for his blatent ignorance.

This is just more fuel for my fire. Fuck! You know, and to think little children are walking around with this death manual, sweet innocent minds waiting to be twisted and molded into some monstrosity of a human being, a freak of nature. Incompetent to stand trial, yeah like this wouldn't wake someone up to smell the logic brewing. Have a cup of logic, my demon seeing friend?

Well i'm ranting, but yeah I wondered about this when I read it but haven't looked them up myself, yet.

- drift

[jordyfs2]

shit....

This is enough to make me want to get absolutely rat arsed... something I haven't done for months.

That this sort of murder is the end product of someone believing in a deity makes me physically sick...

[makebate dags]

theres a cornucopia of disturbing quotes from the bible here http://www.evilbible.com/

Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.

Well there's one I should let my buddies know about if they really want to live up to Jesus's philosophy.

I think this guy took all nonbelievers to be anti-christ
1 John 2:18-27

Yeah, call a person speaking the truth a liar, and his truth is supposed to shrivel up and dissapear because of it.

Antichrist
(From Easton's Bible Dictionary) against Christ, or an opposition Christ, a rival Christ. The word is used only by the apostle John. Referring to false teachers, he says (1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2John 1:7), "Even now are there many antichrists."

I think it's taken for granted that anyone not confessing christ as god is an anti-christ. So he equated all non-believers as anti-christ

Therefore;
any non-believer passage is taken in this guys mind to mean a anti-christ, i'm guessing. But, the quotes here are rather damning without some major wiggling out on the part of thiest.

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

Kill Your Neighbors

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Welcome to the world of the strange, wierd, and dangerous the holy bible.

Who knows what kind of mayhem could be extracted from this book? And believed?

- drift

[Puck]

And they call it the Good book....

[pairadocs]

He sounds like he was a whacko even without taking religion into account, frankly. If he hadn't been preoccupied with Christianity, maybe the shooting would have been about something else, you know? Don't know if that's comforting necessarily but there it is.

[Mickie]

This is fucking insane I know, because all my good senses tell me I'm over reacting, but am I really?

Yes.

Women get raped more than men but I don't dress up as a man to avoid it. I haven't had my breasts surgically removed. I don't even wear neck to ankles clothing. I do, however, avoid highly risky situations.

I still get in my car every day and that has a higher chance of killing me.

Mick

[starling]

The dispatcher said the alleged shooter told him he'd just shot "the devil himself" and was still armed and standing over the body of the 62-year-old victim "in case he moved."

The alleged shooter? :eek: I've heard of innocent before proven guilty, but this is ridiculous!

Incidentally the proper thing to do is to fall to your knees begging for the mercy of God, and apologizing for how yow have sinned, and adamantly claiming you will not lose sight of the light of God again. Then after you're home, call the police and have the guy arrested for attempted murder. He might get off easier, but then, I think a person being dead is not a fair trade for a fundie being pinned as a murderer. I might be wrong though...

[Jobar]

Killing over beliefs is always with us. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/18/family.slain.ap/index.html) There was a story a month or so ago, about an Australian couple who were attacked by a crazy with an ax, because he found out they were atheists. The man was killed, the wife severely injured. (Google 'Australian atheist killed'.)

But- both the instance this thread is about, and that Aussie murder, were both done by complete nutters who might have killed someone for any other sort of disagreement, not just a religious one.

And look at it this way. Neither of those are part of any pattern. There's no religions out there screaming for atheist heads. (Well... yet, anyway.) We don't have the worries that, oh, abortion doctors do.

So really, I think that some of you are overreacting. Until we see some sign of systematic persecution, I think it's premature to start waving any bloody shirts.

[DMB]

You don't have to go back very far in European history for details of forced mass conversions and executions for heresy. Atheism was a capital offence for a long time. It still is according to some schools of shari'a law in islam, along with apostasy and blasphemy.

Voltaire protested about the execution in 1766 of the 20-year-old Chevalier de la Barre, who was decapitated for having failed to remove his hat when a religious procession moved through the street. (He was also found to have a copy of a banned book by Voltaire, which proved what a criminal he was.)

Religion, being essentially irrational, frequently seeks to bolster its position by violence or intimidation.

[_Naturalist_]

"I did it because he is evil; he was not a believer," the suspect told police.

Because shooting and killing people for nothing isn't evil...?

[Massive_Attack]

I found this article on the detroit free press news column today

http://www.freep.com/news/cfp/3/vshoot28_20041028.htm

It's really making me sad, that someone could be murdered for not believing in god. As far as telling others about my athiesm I just don't know anymore.


The person who did this was crazy. Crazy people are everywhere. I dont think you have anything to be worried about - yet.

[Atheos]

Pretty incredible. Has anyone unearthed any single incident in which a true atheist killed someone just because they believed in God? I'm sure it's happened before, maybe someone like Charles Manson or someone.

-Atheos

[makebate dags]

Quote:
Originally Posted by d r ¡ f t
This is fucking insane I know, because all my good senses tell me I'm over reacting, but am I really?

Yes.

Women get raped more than men but I don't dress up as a man to avoid it. I haven't had my breasts surgically removed. I don't even wear neck to ankles clothing. I do, however, avoid highly risky situations.

I still get in my car every day and that has a higher chance of killing me.

Mick

Looking back on my intial reaction It's clearer what bothers me about this. It's this problem certain people have, maybe a lot of people that are uncomfortable when others don't share in their delusions. To the point they will not let it rest. IOW Agree to disagree.

As far as being troubled by that which hasn't proved reasonably likely to happen to me. I guess mark twain sums it up best.

I am an old man and have known a great many troubles but most of them never happened. - mark twain

Thanks all for the replies. :)

- drift

[praetor]

I hate to be a bitch, but what a paranoid thread. The murder was obviously more about mental illness than religion. The news article was trite, sensational, and poorly written. And people worrying about their theistic relatives going postal and taking them out is cracker box hysteria.

What was an senseless murder is not a sign of the end of times. Rest easy.

[makebate dags]

I hate to be a bitch, but what a paranoid thread. The murder was obviously more about mental illness than religion. The news article was trite, sensational, and poorly written. And people worrying about their theistic relatives going postal and taking them out is cracker box hysteria.

What was an senseless murder is not a sign of the end of times. Rest easy.

My paranoia was brief thanks, I'm feeling good now. Well, until you put this bitchy post here. :Cheeky:

True I'm still paranoid about the theistic relatives. It's fucked up I know, but whatever. What's cracker box hysteria?

- drift

[gary_kephart]

There's a follow-up on this at my blog:

http://photeus.com:8080/roller/page/gary_kephart/20051221#the_murder_of_larry_hooper

[Peter Watts]

Pretty incredible. Has anyone unearthed any single incident in which a true atheist killed someone just because they believed in God? I'm sure it's happened before, maybe someone like Charles Manson or someone.

-Atheos

Right before the two boys at Columbine killed Cassie Bernall, they asked her if she believed in God. Then they sent her into His presence.
Klebold and Harris, who were otherwise killing indiscriminately, seemed particularly interested in whether some students were Christians. They took great sport in seeing if they could get a student to renounce her or his faith.

[Peter Watts]

I hate to be a bitch, but what a paranoid thread. The murder was obviously more about mental illness than religion. The news article was trite, sensational, and poorly written. And people worrying about their theistic relatives going postal and taking them out is cracker box hysteria.

What was an senseless murder is not a sign of the end of times. Rest easy.

You make an excellent point.
It sounds as if religion was the least of this person's problems.

[zorq]

You make an excellent point.
It sounds as if religion was the least of this person's problems.
You're probably right but I don't know how you can conclude that. When the bible actually can be interpreted at face value to condone and encourage the killing of unbelievers it is entirely possible that religion was his only problem.

[Mageth]

Right before the two boys at Columbine killed Cassie Bernall, they asked her if she believed in God. Then they sent her into His presence.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd say probably a myth, based on later investigations.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/casshoax.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassie_Bernall

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1214col1.shtml

One of the most noted episodes in the library had been a reported exchange between student Cassie Bernall and one gunman.

"Do you believe in God?" the gunman asked.

"Yes, I believe in God," Cassie replied.

"Why?" the gunman said, then pulled the trigger.

But student Emily Wyant, who had crouched under a table beside Bernall, told investigators the conversation never happened.

Later, with student Craig Scott, who'd escaped from underneath a table where two classmates died, investigators' doubts grew.

Scott is the brother of Rachel Scott, who had been killed outside the school. He had been a few feet from Cassie and thought it was her voice he heard.

But when he revisited the library, he realized the voice had come from another direction -- from the table where student Valeen Schnurr had been shot.

Investigators came to believe it was probably Valeen, who survived, who told the gunman of her faith in God.

Klebold and Harris, who were otherwise killing indiscriminately, seemed particularly interested in whether some students were Christians. They took great sport in seeing if they could get a student to renounce her or his faith.

Actually, they seemed to be at least in part targeting "jocks" and minorities, IIRC. There's not really much at all to indicate that they particularly targeted Christians.

[EricK]

Right before the two boys at Columbine killed Cassie Bernall, they asked her if she believed in God. Then they sent her into His presence.
Klebold and Harris, who were otherwise killing indiscriminately, seemed particularly interested in whether some students were Christians. They took great sport in seeing if they could get a student to renounce her or his faith.

Most sites seem to be saying that this is untrue:

e.g. http://www.slate.com/id/2099203/sidebar/2099208/
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/23/columbine/print.html

[King of Men]

Hey, fair is fair. Clearly, people who believe in gods aren't competent to stand trial by any rational definition. Unfortunately there are too many of them for it to be a valid defense.

[Clivedurdle]

Of course, if you are not competent because you believe in God, you are not competent to manage your affairs - maybe we do not have to wait for the rapture to get their cars and homes!

[Dick Springer]

The Christian right has treated one of the victims of the Columbine shootings as a martyr for her faith. They claim that one of the shooters asked her whether she believed in Christ before he shot her. I don't know how much truth there is to the story.