how do atheists explain demons, supernatural things and etc?

[dlrs]

I am raised in a fundie family with all that stuff of hell and rapture. Now I am moving from all these fundie views to more liberal (it's kind of deconverting but still I am afraid of using that word :). But in front of me still stay this question about all spiritual powers like demons, angels. Because I have experienced meeting with demon-possesed women who were better after exorcism. And how can all this things be explained rationally? And the other question is: Can a man be actually possesed by demons?

[Stacey Melissa]

Atheists, by definition, do not believe in the existence of any supernatural beings, including demons. Atheists can also be metaphysical naturalists, which means they don't believe in any supernatural anything. Most of the atheists on this discussion board are metaphysical naturalists.

So how do we explain demons? The same way we explain Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. They don't exist.

How would we explain the demon-possesed people you saw? I don't know. You haven't provided any details for us to pick apart. As they say, the devil is in the details - pun intended.

Can a man be actually possesed by demons?
Well, the first requirement for that would be for demons to actually exist. And since that requirement hasn't been met, the answer is "no."

[Krosis]

Actually.. by definition.. atheists lack belief or straight up disbelieve in god or gods.. Anything else is fair game on the believe or not scale..

What S_M describes is an "asupernaturalist" which I'll grant most atheists probably are..

I personally don't believe in anything supernatural.. but what qualifies as such?

-K

[SLUGFly]

Have you ever been possessed by a demon?

Testimony is never sufficient evidence for something that can't be explained rationally. If testimony were enough then think of all the different testimonies you could gather world wide. There are people who claim to have seen a buddhist monk burning in the sky over Thailand after his death. There are sightings of the virgin Mary, ghosts, ufo's, bigfoots, Nessie, Chupacabras, there are visions of Jesus himself, Mohommed was led by visions of the archangel Gabriel, as I'm sure were many after him. Mark Chapmen was told by god to kill John Lennon, Aleister Crowley testified about the power of an ancient magic order, Hindis and many Buddhists testify against afterworlds and in favor of reincarnation, many new agers testify that they can channel spirits, communicate with one another over great distances psychicly. Almost every non-white religion in the world has a great hierarchy of gods that have appeared to many of their followers in visions. Many people have claimed to have been possessed by those dead for hundreds of years or even more. The Dalai Lama himself is (supposedly) the 14th reincarnation of a single person.

If I believe I can fly, I can run and jump off a building and I will fly... for about 20 floors (I like this number, I would choose a 20 story building). Then, very shortly after the first floor, I'll stop flying and my testimony will have been put to the test and will have been found wanting. If I believe that I'm possessed by a demon, I mean, really believe it and not just trying to convince you of it, then nothing can be done to prove otherwise. Psychological tests will reveal chemical imbalances, digressive realities stemming from some sort of childhood repression, nervous failure or breakdown, but it's irrelevent, my testimony will not change. I will continue to be possessed by demons.

If you believe one person based on testimony alone then where will you draw the line, and how will you choose between Jesus and Mohammed, between reincarnation, the void, ghost-form, Heaven/Hell, Purgatory/Limbo and getting sucked up into a mainframe computer on board a ship hiding in the tail of Hail-Bop Comet? (You do remember Heaven's Gate right?).

When I was a child, I woke up early in the morning and in a state of childish awe and reverence I stared out the window and watched the sun-rise. After about an hour I realized it was a streetlight... but for an hour it was the sun. On another occasion I was camping and I know (I know) I saw a monkey climbing a telephone pole. I watched it for a while but then when I saw that it was a transformer the monkey wouldn't come back. I heard Santa's bells on my roof at Christmas time, I saw a ghost of a native shooting a rifle towards me, and I saw a UFO streak by me low in the sky and crash just over the treeline.

The most extraordinary was when I was sick. I heard, and felt, marching of many soldiers coming out of the light in my room. It was warm and comforting. After the light was turned out I heard an intense screaming that had a physical weight to it. It wrapped around me and pushed in on my chest till I couldn't breath, I couldn't scream. This was real, I felt it with my own flesh and heard it with my own ears. Then it was gone, for a second, to reappear again in the distance, small, gaining and growing and repeating the cycle many times till I vomited and fell asleep. In my childhood I never understood these things. Years later, during my teen years I began to understand how the energies in my body were producing these vivid effects, but I digress.

The fortunate (or unfortunate depending on perspective) few whose subconscious can feed into their conscious will interpret whatever happens with the dialogue that they are familiar with (visions of Buddha, Mohammed, Mary, possessions, ghosts, etc.) But in the end it is all one thing. Dreams. I don't discredit these things or their value. I hold dreams as one of the most important things that we have, as one of the most important traits to us becoming the super-animal that we are today. But the interpretations of dreams is not so important.

If a little girl has a nightmare and screams out in her sleep, her mom will run into the room, brush the hair from her face and tell her that it's okay, it was just a dream. The little girl is still scared, it was a very real dream. But the mom says "I won't let anything happen to you." Then she leaves the hall light on, the door open a crack and the child sleeps comfortably having been reassured that safety is in the next room and that mom won't let anything happen to her.

A demon possessed woman can sleep comfortably after an exorcism (provided she has faith in the exorcism) because Daddy's watching out for her. Her subconscious may still be leaking into her conscious but the light is on in the hallway and the door is open a crack and so the dreams remain good. Visions of reassurance help her to regain health and to posit the conscious side of her into control, or at the very least to fill her with warmth so that the subconscious side isn't met with fear and therefore doesn't enter as a demon but rather a sunny and benevolent vision.

[Killer Mike]

I am raised in a fundie family with all that stuff of hell and rapture. Now I am moving from all these fundie views to more liberal (it's kind of deconverting but still I am afraid of using that word :). But in front of me still stay this question about all spiritual powers like demons, angels. Because I have experienced meeting with demon-possesed women who were better after exorcism. And how can all this things be explained rationally? And the other question is: Can a man be actually possesed by demons?

Atheists look at things like demons, angels, and supernatural powers as a form of superstition. They do not exist. No a person cannot be possessed by demons. If someone felt better after an exorcism this would most likely be due to the placebo effect, a psychological phenomenon that has been studied for 30 years. People who are told sugar pills are medicines often say they fell better. Its psychological.

[Killer Mike]

Atheists look at things like demons, angels, and supernatural powers as a form of superstition. They do not exist. No a person cannot be possessed by demons. If someone felt better after an exorcism this would most likely be due to the placebo effect, a psychological phenomenon that has been studied for 30 years. People who are told sugar pills are medicines often say they fell better. Its psychological.

Thats feel better :D

[PinkPanther_04]

If you believe one person based on testimony alone then where will you draw the line, and how will you choose between Jesus and Mohammed, between reincarnation, the void, ghost-form, Heaven/Hell, Purgatory/Limbo and getting sucked up into a mainframe computer on board a ship hiding in the tail of Hail-Bop Comet? (You do remember Heaven's Gate right?).Exactly. It's becoming more and more well-known in the legal system that eye-witness testimony is often highly inaccurate. And most of these reports of ghosts and goblins are a result of second- or third-hand evidence anyways. I myself, through the power of illegal pharmaceuticals, have seen and touched things that were not there. A couple of family members have had vivid schizophrenic hallucinations. And it's not at all unusual for people (even when sober and not diagnosed with a hallucinatory mental illness) to either see things that aren't there at all, or think they're seeing one thing when they're actually seeing another. The brain works in strange ways and we're still a long way from figuring it all out.

This article (http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse.cfm?ITEMIDCHAR=3D5F5324-2B35-221B-604EA874B2B73A63&methodnameCHAR=&interfacenameCHAR=browse.cfm&ISSUEID_CHAR=2EBEBB1D-2B35-221B-60A43B4557AEA06A&ArticleTypeSubInclude_BIT=1&sequencenameCHAR=itemP) shows one example of how the brain fills in the gaps of experience and makes assumptions about what's happening. This is subconscious thought, so your conscious brain doesn't have a chance to reject it. That's why people are so sure of what their brain has told them, whether or not it's an accurate reflection of reality.

And, like a placebo, if an epileptic person is told by people they trust that they're possessed and an exorcism is performed, they may feel better for a while. It certainly doesn't cure them of the original illness that caused people to think they were possessed, but the placebo effect might stave off symptoms for a while.

[BSM]

But in front of me still stay this question about all spiritual powers like demons, angels. Because I have experienced meeting with demon-possesed women who were better after exorcism. And how can all this things be explained rationally? And the other question is: Can a man be actually possesed by demons?

The better question might be: How can those who believe in the supernatural explain the lack of credible and testable evidence for the supernatural? I'm pretty certain that parapsychology has been study these "phenomena" for around 30 years. Thus far what do they have in the way of hard proof to show for their efforts? Practically nil and I have yet to see a legit journal of science publish any credible findings.

First, aside from this woman, what evidence to you have for "spiritual powers" outside of annecdotal testimonies? Have you ever seen a demon and/or angel appear in front of several people? Alone?

As for explaining your demon-possesed lady I can think of three possibilities: 1) Mental illness, 2) The power of group suggestion, 3) Both.

My mother has worked 40 years in a state mental hostipal. During that time she has had several patients who thought that they were a) demon-possesed, b) God, and c) Jesus. Moreover, she's met many famous personalities including Johny Carson, Elvis, the Pope, and president Clinton. In all instances these patients were mentally ill. The other odd thing is that often these manifestations would appear when the patient was somehow able to avoid taking their meds.

In additon, during my stint of employment in and out of the mental health/prison fields I also had the pleasure of meeting Jesus and one demon-possesed person. The funny thing is that Jesus also thought he was a government agent (incidentally, if we weren't minding the office, he would often answer the phone on our unit: "House of the Lord, Christ speaking."). As for the demon-possesed person, well, aside from gibbering like a manic, throwing things, and running around naked, there was no apparent supernatural events (e.g., levitation, mind-reading, supernatural strength, etc.). So, my money is on mental illness.

Also, in your case, I bet the power of group suggestion is at work here. It's no different than what you might see at a rock concert, sporting event, Baptist service, or similiar group activity where the crowd has shared beliefs and their energy is running high.

Finally, with all these Christian groups who allege hard evidence of demon possesion, I've always wondered why no one ever gets this phenomena on video? What I have seen on video is the exact same thing that I described above in prison. NEVER have I seen levitating bodies, telekenisis, glowing red eyes, etc. One would think that if they could get this phenomena on tape, then the Protestant churchs and/or the Vatican would have a very powerful tool for recruitment. In fact, were such a hypothetical tape to actually hold up to scientific scrutinty, I might reconvert.

So far my money is on insanity.

~BSM

[Writer@Large]

Atheists look at things like demons, angels, and supernatural powers as a form of superstition. No, they don't. Atheists lack a belief in deities. One can be an atheist (doesn't believe in a deity) and still believe in monsters, demons, or other supernatural things. The fact is, most atheists don't, because atheism tends to lead to things like skepticism and metaphysical naturalism, but it's wrong to state that all atheists see these things as a superstition. It just doesn't follow.

--W@L

[Loren Pechtel]

I am raised in a fundie family with all that stuff of hell and rapture. Now I am moving from all these fundie views to more liberal (it's kind of deconverting but still I am afraid of using that word :). But in front of me still stay this question about all spiritual powers like demons, angels. Because I have experienced meeting with demon-possesed women who were better after exorcism. And how can all this things be explained rationally? And the other question is: Can a man be actually possesed by demons?

What demons etc? They don't exist.

As for a demon-possessed woman--if she *BELIEVED* she was possessed, exorcism would likely make her feel better. It doesn't require that she actually be possessed.

[Corona688]

What demons etc? They don't exist.

As for a demon-possessed woman--if she *BELIEVED* she was possessed, exorcism would likely make her feel better. It doesn't require that she actually be possessed. Reminds me of a story I read. After being rescued from a house-fire and treated for smoke inhalation with oxygen, this person started having panic attacks that wouldn't go away without another oxygen treatment. So, when her latest panic attack occured, she went straight to the doctors office demanding an oxygen treatment. The doctor replied, "Don't worry, the air in my office is 10% oxygen." She took a few deep breaths and said, "Thank you doctor... that's so much better!"

So yes, these things can be VERY psychological.

[MrDarwin]

The doctor replied, "Don't worry, the air in my office is 10% oxygen." She took a few deep breaths and said, "Thank you doctor... that's so much better!"

It's a good thing that she didn't know that the atmosphere is normally 21% oxygen!

[Sarpedon]

Suppose you had three people:

One was possessed by a demon.
One believed he was possessed by a demon.
One was pretending to be possessed by a demon.

How would you tell the difference? You couldn't, because the second two would respond exactly the same to exorcisms and questioning as the first.

Now, assume that you don't have the first one at all, but only the other two...how could you prove which one was missing? You couldn't.

The fact is, there are various psychiatric disorders wherin a person, on hearing of a certain affliction, believes that they have said affliction. Demon possession is just like that. Some people have a need to feel afflicted, and demons work just as well as diabetes or asthma.

Secondly, there are reasons to pretend to be possessed. Attention getting, profit (when he is in league with the exorcist, who is, presumably, getting a fee) tomfoolry are all reasons to pretend. No mystery.

[lisarea]

There are legitimate reasons that people--even relatively sane ones--might think they are possessed or being visited by demons. The human brain is incredibly complex, and people experience all kinds of anomalies that many would be tempted to explain in supernatural terms.

Sleep paralysis, for example. I can speak to this because it happens to me. You sort of half wake up consciously, but are still paralyzed, which prevents you from moving. You have a really strong conscious feeling of reality, you know where you are, how you are positioned, etc., sometimes you can actually open your eyes and see around you, but you still have little dream remnants, like hallucinations, going on, and you are unable to move. Frequently, you will feel as though there is someone sitting on your chest and holding you down. It is a very very convincing feeling. (It's sort of the reverse of sleepwalking, where you lose the paralysis but are still fully dreaming and, I believe, relatively unaware of your surroundings.)

I can assure you that, if I were in the least bit superstitious, and/or if I were not familiar with the phenomenon, I would probably believe that I was being visited by demons or something. I have seen people describe demon visitations that I can clearly recognize as sleep paralysis.

That's the only supernatural manifestation I have direct experience with, but I would expect that a lot of other phenomena have similar explanations.

[Viti]

I agree lisarea. Sleep paralysis and associated hypnopompic/hypnogogic hallucinations adequately explain a great number of supernatural experiences including demon attacks and alien abductions. In fact, every person I have personally spoken to who claimed seeing a ghost or whatever prefaced their story with "I had just gone to bed" or "I woke up in the middle of the night".

[makebate dags]

If I believe I can fly, I can run and jump off a building and I will fly... for about 20 floors (I like this number, I would choose a 20 story building).

What is with that persistant thing about flying people wanting to jump off buildings? Really. If you believe you can fly then start from the ground, flying people shouldn't need no stinking stairs or elevator to get to the top of things.

- drift

[sakrilege]

This topic is better suited for Science & Skepticism,

sakrilege
SL Moderator

[Undercurrent]

I think exoricism can be a "therapy" of sorts. Imagine if you've got serious problems in your life -- you eat too much, you shoplift, you yell at people too much, you cut yourself, you drink too much, or something like that. A lot of times people like that think that they can't change those behaviours.

"Normal" therapists try to convince such people that they can change those bahviours because they are intelligent rational people. Exorcists convince such people that they are posessed by demons and they can change those behaviours easily once the demon is gone.

I would imagine that someone who gets convinced that he is demon possessed begin to display "classical" demon possession behaviours to enhance the fantasy of "it's not me, it's the demon". Symmetrically, after a convincing exorcism, he would take great pains to avoid those behaviours for the same reason.

[Donnmathan]

I agree lisarea. Sleep paralysis and associated hypnopompic/hypnogogic hallucinations adequately explain a great number of supernatural experiences including demon attacks and alien abductions. In fact, every person I have personally spoken to who claimed seeing a ghost or whatever prefaced their story with "I had just gone to bed" or "I woke up in the middle of the night".

If one delves a bit further into the case studies, one can find many encounters that occur in a fully waking state. However...I will concede that a vast majority of incidental occurances DO match your description and would likely be explained that way. Lacks any sort of explaination power for poltergeist-type cases, though.

[Viti]

If one delves a bit further into the case studies, one can find many encounters that occur in a fully waking state. However...I will concede that a vast majority of incidental occurances DO match your description and would likely be explained that way. Lacks any sort of explaination power for poltergeist-type cases, though.

Of course, I did try to qualify my statements by not using absolutes.

Poltergeist type cases I would immediately suspect fraud, misremembering/forgetfulness (I left my glasses in the kitchen but I found them in the broom closet! Must have been a ghost!) or jumping to the "supernatural" conclusion without an attempt at falsifying various natural hypotheses.

There is a show on SciFi that's these plumbers by trade who investigate the supernatural on weekends. Interesting show because these East Coast sorta blue collar tough guys don't seem the type. Anyhoo, on one episode the homeowner claimed that a specific door would open on it's own. One of the investigators spent some time on it, and was finally able to make it happen consistently, proving it was not supernatural. I just think too many people don't thoroughly investigate.

[Duck!]

Sleep paralysis, for example. I can speak to this because it happens to me. You sort of half wake up consciously, but are still paralyzed, which prevents you from moving. You have a really strong conscious feeling of reality, you know where you are, how you are positioned, etc., sometimes you can actually open your eyes and see around you, but you still have little dream remnants, like hallucinations, going on, and you are unable to move. Frequently, you will feel as though there is someone sitting on your chest and holding you down. It is a very very convincing feeling. (It's sort of the reverse of sleepwalking, where you lose the paralysis but are still fully dreaming and, I believe, relatively unaware of your surroundings.)I can verify this from my own experience. I've had sleep paralysis visions that went beyond anything I've experienced in a dream. After an experience, it can be hard to think of it as an hallucination because it's a sensory experience that's a clear as crisp and believable as your everyday waking state.

I used to be convinced I'd had genuine supernatural contact until I read an article about sleep paralysis. When a friend of mine describe a "ghost" he saw, I noticed that it followed a typical pattern, he awoke in the middle of the night, he couldn't move, and he saw a ghost in the periphary of his vision.

I tried explaining sleep paralysis and my own experiences to him, but I think he was predisposed to believing it was a ghost.

It's experiences like that that make you realise that it's all too easy for sane , sober and usually skeptical people to see stuff that really isn't there or to interpret something with a prosaic explanation as a paranormal experience.


Duck!

[Agemegos]

Because I have experienced meeting with demon-possesed women who were better after exorcism. And how can all this things be explained rationally?

Hysteria. Neurosis. Hallucination. Delusion. Epilepsy. Fraud. Suggestibility. Placebo effect.

All of which would sound like special pleading, except that these phenomena are known from other circumstances and well-documented.

[Stacey Melissa]

I'm another person with frequent hypnogogic/hypnopompic hallucinations. Some of them are so realistic that I have trouble distinguishing them from reality, even after I have fully woken up. I've never hallucinated any supernatural events, but some really freaky shit still happens.

[Donnmathan]

Of course, I did try to qualify my statements by not using absolutes.

Poltergeist type cases I would immediately suspect fraud, misremembering/forgetfulness (I left my glasses in the kitchen but I found them in the broom closet! Must have been a ghost!) or jumping to the "supernatural" conclusion without an attempt at falsifying various natural hypotheses.

There is a show on SciFi that's these plumbers by trade who investigate the supernatural on weekends. Interesting show because these East Coast sorta blue collar tough guys don't seem the type. Anyhoo, on one episode the homeowner claimed that a specific door would open on it's own. One of the investigators spent some time on it, and was finally able to make it happen consistently, proving it was not supernatural. I just think too many people don't thoroughly investigate.

I've seen that show, and love their methods; the normal, everyday possibilities MUST be ruled out before one can move on to looking at the more fantastic. Make no mistake, I fully recognize the idea of ghosts, poltergeists, etc, as fantastic by our current understanding of the world. As far as your suggestion on the poltergeist...that certainly provides ample reason to dismiss most one-shot events, or even minor ones that repeat (like that door). I do not think it explains all occurances, but I think getting into that would wander off topic.

[Marruk]

I've seen that show, and love their methods; the normal, everyday possibilities MUST be ruled out before one can move on to looking at the more fantastic. Make no mistake, I fully recognize the idea of ghosts, poltergeists, etc, as fantastic by our current understanding of the world. As far as your suggestion on the poltergeist...that certainly provides ample reason to dismiss most one-shot events, or even minor ones that repeat (like that door). I do not think it explains all occurances, but I think getting into that would wander off topic.

I saw a show on television a long time ago (I can't remember what it was called but maybe another poster here can) where in a lab it was possible to make things float in the air and do all kinds of wierd stuff, like many descriptions of poltergeists, and it was done with magnetic fields.

[scombrid]

skepdics dictionary (http://www.skepdic.com/exorcism.html)

[Yeshi]

well the coin has definitely two sides, and all your rationalizations cannot dispell the fact that practically ALL human cultures since ice age onwards (last 12,000 years) developed beleifs in spirits etc.

The question is, how do we define and name the 'issues'.

And where is the end of one, and beginning of the 'next' consciousness.

Hysteria. Neurosis. Hallucination. Delusion. Epilepsy. Fraud. Suggestibility. Placebo effect.

+ schyzophrenia, paranoia, but even greed, hatred, jelousy, pride, etc

can all be named 'demons'.

_________________________________________________________

The cases where an american Brujo or african Sangoma or Voodoo man kills a victim over distance are well documented. What was sent, what was received, how 'open' was the victim to 'suggestion' or do you call it 'energy disorder' or a negative 'being' on its own is terminology.

In courts you can witness cases of allegedly perfectly sane people that cannot remember what they did when they stopped using medicines and murdered several innocents around.

That you choose to call it 'mental illness' and not 'demon posession' is simply a placebo pill you decide to take to make you feel cosy, secure, & better.

[Loren Pechtel]

well the coin has definitely two sides, and all your rationalizations cannot dispell the fact that practically ALL human cultures since ice age onwards (last 12,000 years) developed beleifs in spirits etc.

Spirits are an easy explanation because you don't have to explain them.

The cases where an american Brujo or african Sangoma or Voodoo man kills a victim over distance are well documented. What was sent, what was received, how 'open' was the victim to 'suggestion' or do you call it 'energy disorder' or a negative 'being' on its own is terminology.

I've never heard of good documentation of any such case.

In courts you can witness cases of allegedly perfectly sane people that cannot remember what they did when they stopped using medicines and murdered several innocents around.

That you choose to call it 'mental illness' and not 'demon posession' is simply a placebo pill you decide to take to make you feel cosy, secure, & better.

That you choose to call mental illness "demon possession" is simply a placebo pill designed to make you obey the church.

[scigirl]

The cases where an american Brujo or african Sangoma or Voodoo man kills a victim over distance are well documented.
Source please.

In courts you can witness cases of allegedly perfectly sane people that cannot remember what they did when they stopped using medicines and murdered several innocents around.
Again source. Just because the defense lawyer argued this, doesn't make it scientifically factual.
That you choose to call it 'mental illness' and not 'demon posession' is simply a placebo pill you decide to take to make you feel cosy, secure, & better.
No but it does make it more treatable. Ask any Catholic priest, a profession who actually believes in demon possessions: They will tell you that nearly all cases of "demon possessions" are in fact mental illnesses and should be referred to doctors and counseling.

scigirl

[JerryM]

well the coin has definitely two sides, and all your rationalizations cannot dispell the fact that practically ALL human cultures since ice age onwards (last 12,000 years) developed beleifs in spirits etc.




Supernatural beliefs are strongly maintained by cultural and social factors. There is an interesting article in the March, 2004 issue of "Skeptical Inquirer" on how such beliefs develop:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-03/belief.html

[Morethancaffine]

Suggestability also plays a large role here.

When I was younger and in college, I lived in an off-campus duplex, (it was cheaper than on-campus housing). This was back when I had not accepted reality and firmly believed that both the divine and the supernatural were fact. I was up late one night reading the book Communion by Whitley Strieber, and of course, taking it as gospel. (Sheesh :banghead: )

In the middle of the night I woke and saw, standing at the foot of my bed, a ghostly, transparent figure in a flowing white dress leaning over me. I had the impression that she was staring down at me, though she had no discernable face, just hints of features. I was terrified and could not move. I felt awake and lucid enough, but I could not get my limbs to respond. The next thing I knew, I was waking up in the morning.

For years I told this story as evidence for the supernatural and I could not be convinced otherwise. To me it was very real.

In fact it was very real... very real sleep paralysis.

I very rarely have the vivid version of sleep paralysis. Most of the time, I have the normal, "I can't seem to run in my dreams", sort of sleep paralysis.

If you've never read Communion, it is the story about Mr. Strieber's "alien abductions". These aliens always come in the night and when he catches them, he can't move, he sees strange things, and feels strange sensations. Classic signs of sleep paralysis. He goes WAY down the rabbit hole with it though.

My reading this book predisposed me to the idea of night visitation. I saw something I was expecting/afraid that I would see. Nothing supernatural or divine to it, it was simply suggestion.

[Boro Nut]

how do atheists explain demons, supernatural things and etc??

I explain demons and supernatural things as being a hangover from pagan beliefs predating the Roman occupation of Britain. Etc is, by contrast, a hangover from the Roman occupation of Britain. Therefore demons are the odd one out.

Boro Nut

[easychair]

Suppose you had three people:

One was possessed by a demon.
One believed he was possessed by a demon.
One was pretending to be possessed by a demon.

How would you tell the difference? You couldn't, because the second two would respond exactly the same to exorcisms and questioning as the first.

Now, assume that you don't have the first one at all, but only the other two...how could you prove which one was missing? You couldn't.

The fact is, there are various psychiatric disorders wherin a person, on hearing of a certain affliction, believes that they have said affliction. Demon possession is just like that. Some people have a need to feel afflicted, and demons work just as well as diabetes or asthma.

Secondly, there are reasons to pretend to be possessed. Attention getting, profit (when he is in league with the exorcist, who is, presumably, getting a fee) tomfoolry are all reasons to pretend. No mystery.

My best friend is an E.R. doc and he routinely sees patients suffering from psychotic or drug induced hallucinations. These experiences are so powerful that even after treatment with major tranqulizers patients believe that their hallucinations were real.

So in a manner of speaking, demons really do exist for those who must deal with them. In their delusional states these patients see their demons, hear them, and feel them as strongly as if they actually existed.

My friend says demon hallucinations and visions of imaginary persons and surroundings arise from "disassociative identity disorder." The patient may appear (at times) coherent and able to carry on a conversation until you look in his eyes and see that he isn't responding to what's really in front of him. In his delirium he's constructing an imaginary world of his own to escape from unbearable traumatic stress.

What a nightmare it must be. :devil1:

I suppose all of us have our own demons waiting to surface under stressful conditions.

[Yeshi]

Source please.

Again source. Just because the defense lawyer argued this, doesn't make it scientifically factual.

There was series (documentary) on BBC years ago (lets say 15) on Voodoo and its claims. Zombies were not proven, but that people who thought they broke taboo died, was well documented. The necessity seems to be the suggestion & beleif in the outcome by the victim.
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The judiciary case i watched myself (here in Germany we can watch cases on cable TV), and the patient state was also explained by psychiatrist. He was a good looking young man who was brought into the state of paranoia after his g/f deliberately replaced his medicine and had no memory of the killing.

I am sure low-level googling can also help any partially inquisitive minds as well.

Disclaimer: please spare me of comments the likes of: "it is not scientifically proven if you have seen it and i didn't" as i decided not to care what other people think on these boards [except a chosen few]. Take it or leave it, but don't pull my sleeve.

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On the other hand, i seriously disbeleive that the western medicine cures more of mental ilnesses then the traditional doctors cure.

AFAIK, roman catholic church does have exorcists, but protestants do not, and call upon Vatican when 'bad things reoccur'.

In Tibet, you have a whole class of practitioners, called Chödpas, that are basically exorcists. Because in buddhism one does not beleive in distinction of 'inner' and 'outer', they exorcise own demons of the ego but they claim to be able to pacify and cleanse other people from illnesses and 'bad energies'. The claim is also that they cannot get infected by diseases, so traditionally they are sent into areas with mass epidemics, etc.

[someotherguy]

AFAIK, roman catholic church does have exorcists, but protestants do not, and call upon Vatican when 'bad things reoccur'.


This is incorrect. Maybe you missed the link at the top of this page. Here's a relevant quote:

"By conservative estimates, there are at least five or six hundred evangelical exorcism ministries in operation today, and quite possibly two or three times this many."

[Stacey Melissa]

They should start doing exorcisms in Klingon. I doubt the "demon-possessed" would notice any difference.

In fact, I think they should do exorcisms by translating a harlequin novel into Klingon, then reading it to the afflicted, instead of using whatever religious bullshit they use now. No one would be the wiser, and the placebo would work wonders.

[Thor Q. Mada]

It's a good thing that she didn't know that the atmosphere is normally 21% oxygen!
By 10% oxygen she wouldn't make any statement, delirious or not.

[Loren Pechtel]

By 10% oxygen she wouldn't make any statement, delirious or not.

10% is too low to breathe?? It's still 1.5 psi of O2 and I thought that was enough.

[Stella]

To the original poster, everyone has answered your question regarding supernatural beings pretty well.

I wanted to say that I am glad to hear you are considering getting out of fundamentalism. It is really common for people leaving churches that believe in the reality of demons to be frightened about it.

Your fear is natural and understandable, given your circumstances. There are a number of internet communities of people who have left their churches. Many of them say they've had pretty severe anxiety, and it is often the reason that people choose not to leave, despite the fact that they want to.

For the sake of your health and well-being, and being able to live without the constant fear of supernatural attacks, I hope you continue.

I've had sleep paralysis since I was about 9, and I spent a lot of long nights terrified of falling asleep. I don't have them any more, or I haven't had one in years, and I have to tell you that it's a lot easier to sleep at night now. I still get spooked now and then, but it's nothing like it was when I thought demons were trying to get me in my sleep. It's more like jumpy from a scary movie, or being scared in the woods at night while camping.

It's good to not have to labor under that fear anymore. Good luck to you!

[dlrs]

I want to thank to all who paid heed to my post and especially to the last poster (Stella). Your post exhales such a friendly attitude. Thanks!

[jcain6]

You should read "A Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan.

[Xulfer Cirtsag]

Hypnogogic hallucinations suck. :down:

For me, they occur more frequently if I am stressed.

[Yeshi]

I've had sleep paralysis since I was about 9, and I spent a lot of long nights terrified of falling asleep. I don't have them any more, or I haven't had one in years, and I have to tell you that it's a lot easier to sleep at night now.

From the recent sleep research i've read ca year ago in SciAm (don't pull me for online quotes) sleep paralysis is quite common and explainable phenomenon.

If i remember correctly, the neurons beneath frontal lobes connecting to thalamus activate a special state that disconnects motorics from the other brain portions. Otherwise you'd be kicking and hitting around while your consciousness experiences REM sleep.

So laying around paralysed is no biggie. But due to the stress and panic you slip into separate consciousness state which is alike OBE (out of body experience) because you are half-awake due to fear but next sleep-in stage comes in that disconnects wakeful consciousness from senses.

So you end up in OBE state, with both motorics and senses disconnected. You fully and lucidly and intensely scared beleive you are awake running around while you actually sleep on. A sort of LSD trip turned bad and scary.

Been there, done that. Did also the opposite, sleepwalking and remembering it partially. Nothing special to see here folks.

I could give you a rundown of how demon attack looks like too, but the description would cause more harm then good. Better leave it for exorcists! :D

In the meantime practice dilligently your meditations so you can wake up in a GOOD manner when in trouble :)

[Ab_Normal]

ooh, a second hand anecdote: my husband recently admitted that his experiences of the "supernatural" decreased greatly when he gave up ingesting certain substances. Thinking back, he found close to 100% correlation between his remembered experiences and being stoned...

[ohwilleke]

When I was in college I had a professor in sociology whose specialty was alternative medicine.

He was born in India, and told of a story of a boy who was exhibiting the sort of behaviors that are associated with demon possession. He did some background research and learned that while this mountain village didn't have TV or a movie theater, that it did have a guy who showed videos on his TV in a back room in his store and that he had shown the kid the Exorcist video.

The professor, studied the video, and performed his own exorcism on the boy.

The boy was healed.

Draw your own conclusions.