In Canuckland, we have 'em too... :-(

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Unfortunately, religiously motivated homophobia and authoritarianism by prominent religious leaders is not confined to the American South or an Islamic state:

Calgary bishop wants government to oppose gays (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/01/16/calgary-bishop050116.html)

CALGARY - The government must suppress homosexuality and other behaviour deemed to hurt the family, Calgary's Catholic bishop says.

"Since homosexuality, adultery, prostitution and pornography undermine the foundations of the family, the basis of society, then the state must use its coercive power to proscribe or curtail them in the interests of the common good," Bishop Frederick Henry said in a pastoral letter.

In the next paragraph, he suggested such acts are evil and rejected the idea that private acts are nobody else's business. "An evil act remains an evil act whether it is performed in public or in private."

:banghead: :banghead:

What time machine from the 19th century did this guy step out of? I suppose he'll next want something like The Department of Sexual Security (http://www.markfiore.com/animation/security.html).

I supposed I could expect something like this if I lived in the U.S. South, but shit! Not in my own frickin' backyard! :mad:

Jason

[foobar725]

Alberta: Texas of the North. What do you expect from the province that brought us the Alliance?

Not to say that the bishops of other provinces aren't saying the same things; they just aren't as loud or widely supported.

[Ravon]

Alberta: Texas of the North. What do you expect from the province that brought us the Alliance?

Not to say that the bishops of other provinces aren't saying the same things; they just aren't as loud or widely supported.
Lets keep in mind that Catholic Bishops and priests, for that matter, have a party line to follow. They are, for the most part, taking their marching orders from that dried up old man in the vatican. They are going to speak out against anything he perceives as a threat to catholic dogma. Homosexual acts between consenting adults is out while homosexual acts between priest, and choir boys are in provided the choir boys keep quiet.

The cool thing is that in Canada we have a Prime Minister who sees gay and lesbian rights as a charter issue. (similar to the American Bill of Rights). We also have an opposition party the Alliance or Conservative Party that is home to many fundamentalists and sees the issue differently.

As a country we must be vigilant, that the fundamentalists don't accomplish in Canada what they did in the USA, namely, elect a political leader at home in their spiritual ranks and prepared to carry their agenda forward. We still enjoy church/state separation in Canada whereas it looks like America is losing theirs.

[EarlFlynn]

What a wingnut. Fortunately, I think this is more of a desperate last gasp than any really effective opposition. Gay marriage is gonna happen, even in Alberta, and the fundies aren't going to be able to stop it.

[mrzyphl]

The Catholic School system in Ontario is funded by Joe taxpayer. If they want to stay in bed with the state they have to watch what they say or we'll rip the covers off them. :0)

In the community papers the local fundie priests have been very vocal and have recieved very scathing comdemnation in rebuttal letters.

I don't think we have to much to worry about our politicians using their 'faith' to get elected. Look what happened to Stockwell (Doris) Day! He was ridiculed in every national newspaper for his beliefs.

[never been there]

We've got to hang in there. I was a young Montrealer when the Morgentaler trials [for non-Canadians: over abortion] destroyed the political power of the Catholic Church in Quebec, and we'll do it to churches across Canada over same-sex marriage.

[Feather]

That reads like something a more intelligent Phelps might say. I'm sorry you have to deal with this cretinous mentality up there, too. I love Canada and wouldn't wish this crap on you guys.

Hang in there, for yourselves and us down here. Eventually we'll be able to use the sheeple mentality to convince people to be less bigoted with the "Hey, all these people do it; let's follow their example" argument from popularity.

[trendkill]

We still enjoy church/state separation in Canada
Really? Forgive my ignorance, but your Constitution, unlike the American one, invokes God. I've never heard a Canadian speak in terms of church/state separation before.

[socratoad]

Really? Forgive my ignorance, but your Constitution, unlike the American one, invokes God. I've never heard a Canadian speak in terms of church/state separation before.

Its hard to explain to an american that is not familiar with Canada, but there definitely IS a separation of church and state for all intents and purposes. Plus our bill of rights trumps all the bullshit ever likely to arise on the religious front. We do have version of a neocon party full of fundy nut cases but methinks canucks for the most part do not wish to touch them with a ten foot pole. Still one must remain ever vigilant.

As for invoking God, that is nominally speaking. In reality its really quite secular. Much like the queen a mere symbol, blatantly ignored by most people. One can live for months in many places without hearing the words God or Jesus mentioned for months on end expect in most, but not all of Alberta and a few pockets elsewhere, unless one goes seeking.

Constitutions are really no big deal. The Brits do not even have a written one, whereas the former USSR had one of the most beautifully written and all-encompassing ones on the globe. Its the culture of a nation that determines its reality

[iamitis]

O I see a another huffy Canadian liberal bleating on about the merits of our socialist wunderland. Sadly, my American friends, when it comes to Canadian liberals, ethics and intelligence are mutually exclusive, they either vote, on principal, for a party that will NEVER, EVER see the inner corridors of power, or vote from intelligence and elect a winning (but corrupt) party and try drag a left-of-centre organization even further down the devils path. Which of course fails becuase the point isn't to drag a relatively moderate party leftward, it's to keep the scary conservatives out of power.

Even though the Cons and NDP both want representational government, the NDP being convinced they'll garner more seats this way, they will not side against their Liberal Masters, with whom they share a minority goverment. So, I'm not sure there is case to make for principled liberalism or the NDP voter for having sacrificed it's own future for what I can only believe, are scaps of meat on a very juicy bone. If one were curious as to the meaning of Rimbaud's "All dogs are liberals", one might do well to study Canadian dogs.

Way off topic, but really, these hyper patriot canucks really stick in my craw.

[socratoad]

O I see a another huffy Canadian liberal bleating on about the merits of our socialist wunderland. Sadly, my American friends, when it comes to Canadian liberals, ethics and intelligence are mutually exclusive, they either vote, on principal, for a party that will NEVER, EVER see the inner corridors of power, or vote from intelligence and elect a winning (but corrupt) party and try drag a left-of-centre organization even further down the devils path. Which of course fails becuase the point isn't to drag a relatively moderate party leftward, it's to keep the scary conservatives out of power.

Even though the Cons and NDP both want representational government, the NDP being convinced they'll garner more seats this way, they will not side against their Liberal Masters, with whom they share a minority goverment. So, I'm not sure there is case to make for principled liberalism or the NDP voter for having sacrificed it's own future for what I can only believe, are scaps of meat on a very juicy bone. If one were curious as to the meaning of Rimbaud's "All dogs are liberals", one might do well to study Canadian dogs.

Way off topic, but really, these hyper patriot canucks really stick in my craw.

I suppose you have trouble conceiving the reason why Der Fuhrer did not gather a hell of a lot of the Jewish vote either.

[iamitis]

I suppose you have trouble conceiving the reason why Der Fuhrer did not gather a hell of a lot of the Jewish vote either.

I suppose you have trouble conceiving how Der Fuhrer came to power at all? By good, "principled" men doing nothing. Check and Mate.

Now that your "I can't possibly respond to your statement, therefore YOU are a Nazi" argument seems to have blown up in your face, perhaps you'd like to assassinate the character of my family too.

[Toto]

Iamitis - I do not see that you were accused of being a Nazi. Let's not escalate the rhetoric. Stick to Church State separation issues

[sodium]

I'd put it this way

1) Lots of Canadians view separation of Church and State to be desirable, probably in similar numbers to Americans.
2) The Constitution certainly does invoke God, claiming that Canada is founded on the supremacy of God. But it isn't clear that any policy, or legal principle should follow from this.
3) There are some things, like a system of parochial schools in some provinces that pretty clearly violate the principle of Church and state. These are constitutional provisions over which the Charter of Rights has no influence. In effect, this is grandfathered in. It should still be mentioned, however, when discussing to what degree Canada observes separation of C/S.
4) The Charter contains a provision requiring freedom of religion and non-discrimination. This has been interpreted extremely broadly. For example, laws against Sunday shopping were struck down. These laws were applied equally to all Canadians, and didn't prevent anyone from carrying out their religion, but were struck down nevertheless. Laws establishing school prayer have also been struck down, more plausibly in my opinion. I think in general decisions have been separationist. My knowledge here is limitted, but I can't find any example where the courts decide that the government is promoting a religious doctrine in a way that doesn't violate the Charter.
5) Canada also has freedom of religion, and tends to require this, even if it means the state is no longer neutral regarding religion. That is, private organizations can be compelled to accommodate a belief or practice because it is religious in nature.
6) You have to put all this Constitution talk in perspective by considering the Notwithstanding clause. It is vastly easier for a legislature to get around a court decision based on the Charter in Canada than it is for a legislature in the US to get around the Bill of Rights. In the US, it requires an amendment, which is quite difficult. In Canada, it's pretty much like a normal law, except it has to be renewed every five years. In practice, elected governments have not wanted to do this.

What rights Canadians possess are more a function of who wins elections and what those people choose to do than what the Constitution says and how judges interpret it.

[MonCapitan2002]

Really? Forgive my ignorance, but your Constitution, unlike the American one, invokes God. I've never heard a Canadian speak in terms of church/state separation before.
The US Constitution was written during a time when the wingnuts didn't have power. Were the Constitution ever rewritten, you can rest assured that they will do everything they can to inject God into it.

[trendkill]

Constitutions are really no big deal. The Brits do not even have a written one, whereas the former USSR had one of the most beautifully written and all-encompassing ones on the globe. Its the culture of a nation that determines its realityGood point. I think everyone who is paying attention knows that constitutions survive only at the pleasure of the culture. And it's not as if I don't know any Canadians or am not aware that Canada is more secular than the US. However, I also hear that the "wingnut" influence in Canada seems to be increasing, particularly in Alberta. That stuff's contagious. I just hope the religious language in the law doesn't turn into a problem later.

[regis]

Isn't America's motto (or sumpin') One Nation Under God ? Have I been mislead or isn't that so?

(If I may end a sentence with an adverb . . .)


:devil1:

[Colorado Infidel]

One nation under God is a phrase added to the ever polarizing Pledge of Allegiance. The national motto is "In God we trust". However your point holds. :)

The original motto, "E Pluribus Unum", was changed to the God one to show how the US is so much more favored by God over those atheistic Soviets because WE trust in God. Politicians have been nitwits for a long time.

You may end your sentence in an adverb very easily. :D

[Clutch]

O I see a another huffy Canadian liberal bleating on about the merits of our socialist wunderland. Sadly, my American friends, when it comes to Canadian liberals, ethics and intelligence are mutually exclusive, they either vote, on principal, for a party that will NEVER, EVER see the inner corridors of power, or vote from intelligence and elect a winning (but corrupt) party and try drag a left-of-centre organization even further down the devils path. Which of course fails becuase the point isn't to drag a relatively moderate party leftward, it's to keep the scary conservatives out of power.

Even though the Cons and NDP both want representational government, the NDP being convinced they'll garner more seats this way, they will not side against their Liberal Masters, with whom they share a minority goverment. So, I'm not sure there is case to make for principled liberalism or the NDP voter for having sacrificed it's own future for what I can only believe, are scaps of meat on a very juicy bone. If one were curious as to the meaning of Rimbaud's "All dogs are liberals", one might do well to study Canadian dogs.

Way off topic, but really, these hyper patriot canucks really stick in my craw.

Not so much off topic as a compendium of silly canards.

[trendkill]

Isn't America's motto (or sumpin') One Nation Under God ? Have I been mislead or isn't that so?

(If I may end a sentence with an adverb . . .)


:devil1:It's "In God We Trust", actually. We also have the Pledge of Allegiance, which is what your quote is from, and some other so-called "ceremonial deisms". But none of those is the supreme law of the land; none of them is a legally-binding document that uses its first line to resolve that our country "is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law" (quote from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, referring to Canada). And since you're on this forum, I'm pretty sure you have heard Americans talk about "separation of church and state".

[EarlFlynn]

However, I also hear that the "wingnut" influence in Canada seems to be increasing, particularly in Alberta.

Actually, I don't think this is true - if anything, the wingnuts are losing ground in Alberta. (Klein's PCs, while still winning the last election, lost many seats while parties further to the left picked up seats.) Sure, there are still a few loudmouths like Calgary's bishop, but even Premier Klein is admitting that "there's not much we [the Alberta government] can do to stop gay marriage."

Alberta's recently departed Lieutenant Governor, Lois Hole, was a beloved figure in Alberta - and very left-wing. She spent her entire tenure speaking out for public schools, public education, gay rights, public health care, the fine arts, and other progressive causes. She spoke all over Alberta, twenty to thirty times a month, reaching tens of thousands of people. That message, I think, is starting to sink in, and I believe the PC erosion during the last provincial election serves as evidence that Albertans are starting to become more accepting of progressive values.

Of course, that's no reason not to remain vigilant. When progressive forces push, regressive forces push back, and that's what we're seeing now.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Actually, I don't think this is true - if anything, the wingnuts are losing ground in Alberta. (Klein's PCs, while still winning the last election, lost many seats while parties further to the left picked up seats.) Sure, there are still a few loudmouths like Calgary's bishop, but even Premier Klein is admitting that "there's not much we [the Alberta government] can do to stop gay marriage."


I have to agree. If a Bushite Republican came to Alberta and stayed here, he would likely say, "what are ya, a bunch of left-wing commies!!!"

Though we're the most politically conservative province, it shows signs of diminishing. We're still dancing on the grave of Ted Byfield's now defunct right-wing rag Alberta Report. :D The Green Party also got its second highest showing here last federal election, second to BC.

Jason

[Silent Acorns]

Actually, I don't think this is true - if anything, the wingnuts are losing ground in Alberta. (Klein's PCs, while still winning the last election, lost many seats while parties further to the left picked up seats.)
I think it looks that way because the previous election was something of an anomaly with Edmonton voting in several PCs. Essentially, Edmonton just returned to its natural "red state" status. The loss of seats outside of Edmonton was mostly due to a bit of vote splitting caused by the formation of the Alberta Alliance party - a right wing protest vote that represents people who would NEVER accept gay marriage.

Alberta is a funny province. We have two very large, relatively cosmopolitan cities with an increasingly progressive social outlook sitting in a vast land populated with mostly hardcore social conservatives. Edmonton and the rural areas basically cancel each other out politically leaving the balance of power in the hands of Calgary. How Calgary evolves over the next 10 to 25 years will determine how Alberta politics evolves.

My guess is that things will settle nicely in Alberta (from a social progressive point of view) once the older generation dies off.
Alberta's recently departed Lieutenant Governor, Lois Hole, was a beloved figure in Alberta - and very left-wing. She spent her entire tenure speaking out for public schools, public education, gay rights, public health care, the fine arts, and other progressive causes. She spoke all over Alberta, twenty to thirty times a month, reaching tens of thousands of people. That message, I think, is starting to sink in, and I believe the PC erosion during the last provincial election serves as evidence that Albertans are starting to become more accepting of progressive values.
I hope you're right, but I'm far from convinced. Lois Hole has always seemed to me to be an Edmonton phenomenon. Her stint as Lieutenant Governor did a nice job of exposing her to the rest of the province, but I suspect that she's mostly viewed in the rural areas as a really nice lady. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

What I find most interesting in the current debate is that there seem to be three relatively equal sized camps: those that suport gay marriage, those that don't, and those that would support it if it was called a "civil union" or the like. It's this third group that will determine the fate of the current bill. I suspect that a large portion of them are from the older generations (I have no poll data to back this up). Certainly, my mother and father-in-law fall into this camp. It just doesn't quite sit right with them to use the term "marriage" for homosexual unions - even though they can't put their finger on why. Oh, and they are both Catholics who think Bishop Henry is a blow hard.

[regis]

Trendkill Quote: It's "In God We Trust", actually. We also have the Pledge of Allegiance, which is what your quote is from, and some other so-called "ceremonial deisms". But none of those is the supreme law of the land; none of them is a legally-binding document that uses its first line to resolve that our country "is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law" (quote from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, referring to Canada). And since you're on this forum, I'm pretty sure you have heard Americans talk about "separation of church and state".


A couple of things: I realize that Canada's Charter's opening with the fuzzy-feeling recognition of "the supremacy of God" could be dangerous as it could give legitamacy to goddists and their fellow-travellers, but I think any debates would devolve into an endless downward spiral of "which god" & "whose god"? I think that it is far more dangerous to have the planet's pre-eminent superpower in the hands of nutjobs who want to establish a Republic of Gilead dedicated to 'their' weird notions of jayzuz. Whether we canucks fiddle-fuck with the silly opening to our charter or not or how is irrelevent - - - it will have zero effect on the way the charter is used or abused. There are too many of us in the non-fundy camp to allow god, even here in Alberta, to win the day, Bishop Henry or no Bishop Henry.


:devil1:

[Matty]

Its kind happening in ON too. There was one of the MPs (i believe from the London/Windsor area) ranting about how homosexual marriage devalues "proper marriages" and undermines family values etc etc etc on the radio the other night.

FWIW everyone i know who heard the show seemed to be of the opinion that he was a bit of a throwback fuckwit, as did pretty much everyone who called in, and the DJ.

[Clutch]

I have to agree. If a Bushite Republican came to Alberta and stayed here, he would likely say, "what are ya, a bunch of left-wing commies!!!"

Though we're the most politically conservative province, it shows signs of diminishing. We're still dancing on the grave of Ted Byfield's now defunct right-wing rag Alberta Report. :D The Green Party also got its second highest showing here last federal election, second to BC.

Jason

Jason, I got the feeling that The (Alberta) Report was really a victim of its own success. It highlighted the market niche for subsequent similarly loony-right publications like the National Post that then competed with it. And it so thoroughly drove Alberta political discourse rightwards that no reservoirs of outrage remained to be tapped, this side of "Liberals To Make Bible Illegal!" In my view, it went away because it's mission was accomplished, not undermined. Just pessimistic?

[Straight Hate]

Observations I've made. Take them with a grain of salt.

1. Whereas the US constitution seems very morally absolute, the Canadian one in comparison seems very subjective and lax. To have god mentioned in our constitution is pretty much irrelevent because the Canadian mindset overall seems to say that's not 'good government'.

2. The 'wingnut' conservative contingent hasn't grown, it's simply mirrored the methods and madness of their counterparts to the south.

3. When the opposition challenges the status quo on same-sex marriage, and it's the opposition who gets burned, I realize how little power the conservatives in this country actually have. There is a mysterious, pantheistic Canadian fabric/force, wholly liberal, that ignores whatever contentious issue rules the day and just does whatever it pleases.

4. Most conservative Canadians aren't out to burn gays, pagans and foreigners on the stake. They just want a half-decent country to raise their kids in. And don't take away their free healthcare, because even though it's a liberal idea, it's a pretty good one after all is said and done.

[fishbulb]

Really? Forgive my ignorance, but your Constitution, unlike the American one, invokes God. I've never heard a Canadian speak in terms of church/state separation before.

It also says that Queen Elizabeth is the head of state. It doesn't mean anything. But constitutional amendment is an involved and acrimonious process around here, and there is no point in tearing open wounds that are barely scabbed over in order to address these largely cosmetic points.

Most Canadians are nominally Christian, and Canada's most extreme Christian conservatives are just as nutty as America's. It's just that there aren't as many and they don't all have talk radio shows. Canada is primarily Anglican and Catholic: big institutional religions, rather than the evangelicals that are so prominent in the U.S. Moreover, most Canadian Christians are not what one would consider actively practicing their faith. Most do not attend church more than a few times a year. This varies from place to place. Alberta is considered the most Christian province (though it tends to get painted unfairly with a very broad brush), while Québec is among the most secular places on Earth. It is also interesting to note that the West tends to vote either Conservative or NDP (social democrat) but not Liberal. I think that the West has a tendency to vote for outsider parties more than it does for conservative ones per se. The Liberal party is not a particularly ideological party: it is a centrist party that specializes in winning elections, whereas other parties tend to have something that more closely resembles an ideology.

Among Canadian politicians, there is a general consensus that religion is personal. Those few who make it a centerpiece of their politics tend to get rejected. Our Prime Minister is, reportedly, devoutly Catholic but he has (finally) come out unequivocally in favour of recognizing same-sex marriage. We probably don't explicitly talk about church-state separation since there is a general consensus that mixing real religion (not just the largely cosmetic stuff like references to God in the constitution and the national anthem) and politics is inappropriate, so it doesn't happen much.

[trendkill]

I think that it is far more dangerous to have the planet's pre-eminent superpower in the hands of nutjobs who want to establish a Republic of Gilead dedicated to 'their' weird notions of jayzuz.Agreed.