Swine

[Lucretius]

...in the Bible
First of all sorry if this is the wrong place
Something that has intrigued me for a while is the reference to swine and swineherds in the Bible.
I have always wondered why the Jews would have had swine and swineherds as obviously they could not eat them what would be the purpose of actually keeping domesticated Pigs ? The fact that they have swineherds would imply they are domesticated and not just wild
Other than as a food source what possible use could they be ?

[diana]

...in the Bible
First of all sorry if this is the wrong place
Something that has intrigued me for a while is the reference to swine and swineherds in the Bible.
I have always wondered why the Jews would have had swine and swineherds as obviously they could not eat them what would be the purpose of actually keeping domesticated Pigs ? The fact that they have swineherds would imply they are domesticated and not just wild
Other than as a food source what possible use could they be ?To sell to their neighbors?

Of course, just touching a pig made them ritually unclean. But so did a woman getting her period, or a man touching her while she was on the rag, etc.

That's my guess, though: commerce and revenue. The Jews couldn't eat them, but God passed no law that said it was a sin for any of their neighbors to eat them, or for the Jews to profit from this fact.

d

[BuffaloBill]

Sounds like another "oops" by a fiction writer. I'm sure a fact-checker wasn't a avocation then.

Swine were maybe used to underscore the filthiness of the whole affair, such as when a host of demons inhabited an entire herd. They were guilty by association, and handily provided one more reason to steer clear of those animals.

[Lafcadio]

I don't think that jewish society in the first millenium BC was too homogenous, thinking of their warring, bloody history. Proably they were a mix of semites. Therefore, nor their cultural habits were homogenous.

IMHO, we can't say 100% if the swineherd keeper was a jew, or if the swineherd owner was a jew, or more if he was an obedient jew, an "orthodox" jew.

And about facts and their accuracy, ffs, Herodotus was a bigger liar than all Bible writers and he's the "father of history" :D

[andrewcriddle]

Something that has intrigued me for a while is the reference to swine and swineherds in the Bible.
I have always wondered why the Jews would have had swine and swineherds as obviously they could not eat them what would be the purpose of actually keeping domesticated Pigs ? The fact that they have swineherds would imply they are domesticated and not just wild
Other than as a food source what possible use could they be ?

If you're referring in particular to the story of the swine rushing into the sea in Mark 5 and parallels it seems (see commentaries for problems of the precise location) to be set in the Decapolis region which had a large Gentile population.

Andrew Criddle

[gregor]

According to Koester (vol. 1), pigs were far and away the largest meat source in the ANE. I suspect they were ubiquitous, notwithstanding Levitical prohibitions.

[Toto]

Boro Nut and Chili s split off here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=112681)

[Clivedurdle]

Could references to swine actually be code for Romans?

[Vorkosigan]

From my website:

Many New Testament scholars see a reference to a Roman legion occupying Palestine, either Legio 1 Italica, which had as its legionary standard a boar and was in the east in around 67, or more likely Legio X Fretensis, which had among its standards a bull, a tireme, a dolphin, and a boar, and was responsible for occupying Jerusalem after the Jewish War (ended 70 CE), staying into the fourth century. After 70 it was stationed in Gerasa for a while (Winter 1974, p180-181). Against this interpretation is the fact that Gerasa is in Gentile rather than Jewish territory, where the legion would not have been viewed so negatively (Donahue and Harrington 2002, p166). However, in the second century Legio X was made the sole occupying legion of "Syria Palestina" (Hadrian's abusive name for the Jewish homeland), so a later date for Mark might be indicated. In addition to the symbol of the pig itself, Myers (1988, p191) points out that this pericope is saturated with military terminology. The term agele that the writer uses for a "herd" of pigs is often used to denote a gaggle of new recruits for the military, the Greek term epetrepsen ("he dismissed them") echoes a military command, and the pigs' charge (ormesen) into the lake sounds like a military attack.

Cliff Carrington in his Flavian Testament has also pointed out some parallels between this and a passage in Josephus, where Jewish rebels, led by a rebel named Jesus (son of Shaphat), are chased into the nearby lake and killed by Titus' army. Myers (1988, p191) also sees possible Josephean parallels, with both War 4.9.1, and Antiquities 14.15.10. Joseph Atwill (2005) who in a forthcoming book uncovers a number of resonances between the fighting around Gadara and this passage, observes:

"In the Gadara passage in War of the Jews Josephus tells us the number of prisoners taken captive: ‘There were besides two thousand and two hundred taken prisoners’ Josephus also informs us that, ‘ A mighty prey was taken also, consisting of Asses, and sheep, and camels, and oxen’. Notice that there were no swine taken."(p49)

At the general level, enemy soldiers killed by drowning recalls the fate of Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea.

[Toto]

Could references to swine actually be code for Romans?

Roman soldiers have been suggested. The boar (pig) was the symbol of the Legio X Fretensis (http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/x_fretensis.html) Its presence in Syria in 6, however, is a certainty. Our unit, together with III Gallica, VI Ferrata, and XII Fulminata, must have taken part in the campaign led by the famous governor of Syria, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, to Judaea in 6, which had become restless after the emperor Augustus had exiled Herod Archelaus, added his realm to the Roman empire, and organized the census so well-known from the Gospel of Luke.

. . .

From 67 onward, X Fretensis fought in the war against the Jews. It was commanded by Marcus Ulpius Trajanus, the father of the future emperor. The supreme commander of the Roman forces in Judaea was general Vespasian, who was to become emperor during the civil war that broke out after the suicide of Nero in 68.

After the first year of war, X Fretensis and V Macedonica had their winter camp at Caesarea (67/68), and after the capture of Gamala, the Tenth moved to Scythopolis (modern Beth-Shean). In the summer of 68, X Fretensis was active in the valley of the river Jordan and destroyed the monastery of Qumran, where the Dead See-scrolls have been found. Its winter camp was at Jericho. After mid-69, its commander may have been Terentius Rufus, who is mentioned as "commander of the troops" by Flavius Josephus.

In 70, X Fretensis took part in the siege of Jerusalem (more). After the capture, prisoners of war were sent to Seleucia, where the legionaries forced them to cut the Canal of Titus (pictures). Although this was hard labor, these people were lucky that they were not sent to Rome to build the Colosseum.

. . .

X Fretensis was to stay in Judaea for more than a century and a half. Jerusalem became its new base, and several unremarkable archaeological finds in the holy city -bricks and tiles with the name of emblem of the legion- prove its presence. Unfortunately, we do not know the precise location of its fortress. The emblem of the legion, a boar or pig, was visible on several places and must have been intended to humiliate the Jewish population.
. . .

(Consult the link for pictures and more links)

[Atheos]

Could references to swine actually be code for Romans?
Maybe in some instances but the parable of the Prodigal Son has him feeding swine at the bottom of his depravity. His deplorable condition is so bad that he envied the swine the husks that they ate.

Sometimes a pig is just a pig. :)

-Atheos

[Juliana]

...in the Bible
First of all sorry if this is the wrong place
Something that has intrigued me for a while is the reference to swine and swineherds in the Bible.
I have always wondered why the Jews would have had swine and swineherds as obviously they could not eat them what would be the purpose of actually keeping domesticated Pigs ? The fact that they have swineherds would imply they are domesticated and not just wild
Other than as a food source what possible use could they be ?

This is also explained in 'Jesus was Caesar', see 'The Gerasene Demoniac' in 'Words and Wonders' http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/w&w.html#gerasene

[...]
Even the ‘swine’—in the Gospels, ‘there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding’ (Mk. 5:11)—are also found in Caesar’s story with insignificant phonetic variations: ‘farm livestock that came from Epirus in abundance…’[336]. Here too, two easily mistaken words: porcus and pecus, swine and farm livestock (which include swine). This surely was an understandable mistake because Caesar’s soldiers were suffering from such famine that they ate any animal, and eventually they began to dig for roots like unclean animals; from a root called chara they made, besides soup, also bread and ran towards the Pompeians throwing it triumphantly and full of contempt.[337] When Pompeius saw this bread he cried out: ‘What kind of beasts must we fight?’[338] Thêria—actually means small animals, in the sense of wild unclean animals, beasts. What he meant was, because of the fodder, ‘What pigs.’ Mk. 5:13: ‘And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine’. Into the swine: choirus. What appears phonetically and optically as a mix of chara and thêria.

As with Gaul/Galilee, as well as Corfinium/Capharnaum, similar names and requisites appear within similar structures and sequences. So, we want to see if the parallel sequencing continues.
[...]

[Clivedurdle]

How political are the Gospels? Could the story of the Prodigal Son also be an allusion to the Romans?

Has anyone looked at all the references to Rome and possible allusions - render unto Caesar for example - and what conclusions can be made?

[Juliana]

How political are the Gospels? Could the story of the Prodigal Son also be an allusion to the Romans?

Has anyone looked at all the references to Rome and possible allusions - render unto Caesar for example - and what conclusions can be made?

Again, read 'Jesus was Caesar' it is a major breakthrough (actually the solution, I think) in the Search for the historical Jesus.

The prodigal son is Brutus. From 'JWC', chapter 'Synoptic Comparison' p. 321:

"But in the middle of their Gospels Matthew and Luke add facts regarding
Caesar that either do not appear in Mark or appear in a different
manner or in an abbreviated form. So here, for example, one can detect
Brutus who had switched sides to Porcius (Cato), as the prodigal
son who joined himself to the swineherds; or one can recognize the vain
oath of the Pompeians before Pharsalos as the ban on swearing. And we
would detect with surprise, that behind Jesus’ famous words there are
Caesar’s laws and ordinances: so behind the Good Shepherd who
knows his sheep is Caesar’s measure to restrict the extension of pasture
at the expense of the arable farmland by limiting the use of slaves as
shepherds; [...] "

[Clivedurdle]

Just seen a new book by Umberto Eco - too technical for me, but it points out major problems with translation, the concept of literal seems meaningless!

Translation is always a shift,not between two languages but between two cultures. A translator must take into account rules that are not strictly linguistic but, broadly speaking, cultural.' Umberto Eco is of the world's most brilliant and entertaining writers on literature and language. In this accessible and dazzling study, he turns his eye on the subject of translations and the problems the differences between cultures can cause. The book is full of little gems about mistranslations and misunderstandings.For example when you put 'Studies in the logic of Charles Sanders Peirce' through an internet translation machine, it becomes 'Studies in the logic of the Charles of sandpaper grinding machines Peirce'. In Italian 'ratto' has no connotation of 'contemptible person' but denotes speed ('you dirty rat' could take on a whole new meaning!) What could be a weighty subject is never dull, fired by Eco's immense wit and erudition, providing an entertaining read that illuminates the process of negotation that all translators must make.

Mouse or Rat - Translation as Negotiation (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0753817985/internetinfidels)