God and Genetics

[BadBadBad]

I was thinking about all those that praise God when someone survives or recovers from injury or illness. It's especially good when they get to gloat on the success of their prayer groups that have been praying for this miracle. There's never any discussion or questioning of where God has been through the onset of this illness/injury or through the suffering.

My son has an auto-immune disease called ITP (idiopathic thrombocytopenia) where his immune system attacks his blood platelets. In many cases, like my son's, platelet levels go to such low levels it can be pretty dangerous and certainly life-style affecting. It's a relatively rare disease that affects people of all ages. It's a fairly frustrating disease in that there is really no cure, and the treatments are fairly drastic, laden with side effects, and for the most part in-effective. After over a year of going through this, at age 12, my son will have his spleen removed this month, which at this point is the most effective action in his case. Only there are no guarantees. In 65-85% of the cases, patients have a long term remission of symptoms, and that includes a range of results from partial to full recovery. Only, they have no indicators to tell you whether you will be one of them. You just have to make a risk/benefit decision and throw it up to chance/God and hope for the best.

So, I'm prepping myself for all those in the prayer groups of family, friends and those in their churches. Plus, I participate in a support discussion board. There's lot's of the faithful there too, and I'm just waiting and hoping for all the praising of God and rejoicing in the effectiveness of their prayers. Only, assuming for the moment that God exists, where has God been through all this suffering? Where was God when the two children on the discussion board died last year? Where was God through all the prayers of the last year? After reading all the praise Gods on this discussion board, it struck me that perhaps the Christians should already know. Through all my research, I've learned that some of the most brilliant minds in the world believe that genetics may play a role in this disease. They don't know the specific mechanism, but they suspect that genetics play a role as to who is susceptible, and who is not. That got me thinking.

Now we get to the point I had in mind for this thread. As I understand it as a layman, genes are like little switches. Who is it that flips the switches? At conception, individual atoms are merged between the mother and father one by one to form a new and unique DNA chain including all it's potential flaws. Either God directly supervises the replication of every cell at least at conception, or God set up an infinite chain of events at the beginning of time such that every atom must join in the specific complex sequence that makes up every unique DNA chain.

So my conclusion is that if God exists, God flips the switches. If God flips the switches, then these genetic illnesses along with all their suffering are predestined by God. Either God flipped a switch that for sure means you'll get an illness or horrible genetic defect, or God flips a switch with perfect foresight knowing absolutely that you'll get the illness. Either way it seems that according to Christianity, God is the villain here regardless of whether he comes in at the end and miraculously saves the day or whether he lets the suffering continue through a devastating illness and death. Forgive me for not offering my thanks!

[princess_333]

So my conclusion is that if God exists, God flips the switches. If God flips the switches, then these genetic illnesses along with all their suffering are predestined by God. Either God flipped a switch that for sure means you'll get an illness or horrible genetic defect, or God flips a switch with perfect foresight knowing absolutely that you'll get the illness. Either way it seems that according to Christianity, God is the villain here regardless of whether he comes in at the end and miraculously saves the day or whether he lets the suffering continue through a devastating illness and death. Forgive me for not offering my thanks!

Sorry to hear about your son.
I hope that things work out.

What u said above applies also to anything like why do healthy people get cancer, why are there sick child molesters? Where is god when a little kid get raped and killed, and this can go on forever....
I think that question that you posed is part of the reason that most people question their beliefs...I know that is why I question the existance of god, but when you speak to religious people, they'll all tell you that "yes, god knows about these things, god knows what's going to happen ,but there is also reasons for this that we are not aware of, and that god has good judgement"

I feel your pain, I have been diagnosed with MS, and that means that some where along the line, i might go blind or paralyzed or stuff, but I try not to think of why now, i would just rather work on getting my meds and getting better

I hope things work out with your son

[BadBadBad]

What u said above applies also to anything like why do healthy people get cancer, why are there sick child molesters? Where is god when a little kid get raped and killed, and this can go on forever....

It may apply if you assume that some people have genetic dispositions towards these behaviors. However, the cause is not as clear as in the case of genetic illnesses. If it can be shown conclusively that your suffering is caused by genetics, the Christian has to at least exclude any culpability from the victim.

they'll all tell you that "yes, god knows about these things, god knows what's going to happen ,but there is also reasons for this that we are not aware of, and that god has good judgement"

Right, so God knows and he has mysterious reasons to allow it. They deny God's culpability. Man sinned, then evil and suffering entered the world. I just want to know who flipped the switch on this particular gene that causes this particular illness and suffering?

[princess_333]

Right, so God knows and he has mysterious reasons to allow it. They deny God's culpability. Man sinned, then evil and suffering entered the world. I just want to know who flipped the switch on this particular gene that causes this particular illness and suffering?

Well then, if you believe that a god exists, it was god
if you don't believe in the existance of god, and believe that things are random, then it was fuck up by nature...

[Bright Life]

Sorry things suck so badly right now. :(

[Boomeister]

It may apply if you assume that some people have genetic dispositions towards these behaviors. However, the cause is not as clear as in the case of genetic illnesses. If it can be shown conclusively that your suffering is caused by genetics, the Christian has to at least exclude any culpability from the victim.



Right, so God knows and he has mysterious reasons to allow it. They deny God's culpability. Man sinned, then evil and suffering entered the world. I just want to know who flipped the switch on this particular gene that causes this particular illness and suffering?

I agree with this post. Many people will try to take away God's culpability by saying that "sin" entered into the world, and that's how we get earthquakes, tsunamis, cancer, malaria, etc. But how did sin cause the world to change this way? God had to flip the switch, so to speak. I can see how an individual's wrong doing can effect them or effect others, but that's not the same as what is being asked. I can smoke for years and drink like a fish, and that could effect my health. If I drink and drive and get into a wreck, that could kill me or someone else. So, I understand the cause and effect for those kind of actions. But to say that sin fundamentally changed nature, as in how the earth works and our genetics, then one has to wonder how that is done. If one believes in the premise that sin caused these changes, then it seems like God would be the only one that could make these changes happen.


Boomeister

[Chili]

Well then, if you believe that a god exists, it was god
if you don't believe in the existance of god, and believe that things are random, then it was fuck up by nature...

To BadBadBad based on the above

But the Intelligent Design does not allow nature to fuck up.

Things being random is just as ignorant as things being divine in that both attribute the real cause to an unknown source. The only difference is that in one case God is recognized as the unknown cause in the chain of events while random selection allows nature to bang away on its own without a mind of its own.

Where the above fails is that we are co-creators with God who himself is the first cause but not the final cause of the created. The created 'being' is the essence of God that becomes manifest in the DNA of Lord God (is us) to whom we add intelligence via the Tree of Knowledge into the Tree of Life (read Gen.3:6 twice). In the material world this would be via our conscious mind into our subconscious mind where it becomes tied to our RNA and on into the DNA to set the trigger on these switches.

Our DNA is genetic, ie switches are switches, and our RNA is incarnate upon us via the bloodstream wherefore we are predetermined with regard to our destiny in life but not entirely because our RNA is not genetic. In this sense is destiny a matter of mind over matter and therefore miracles can and do happen.

Hope this helps and may your unspoken prayer come true for you and yours.

[BadBadBad]

Sorry things suck so badly right now. :(

Actually, I'm looking forward to things looking up from here on out. I'm optimistic that the odds are substantially in his favor for a good response. Hopefully, we'll be having a big party by the end of the month! Even if he doesn't have a "good response," it's likely he'll have some response. As one of the doctors pointed out, to someone with virtually no plateletes, "some" more plateletes is a still a big deal.

Now, who would you rather be? Me, or my Christian wife? I can accept that things suck because that's just mine and my kid's bad luck today. Tomorrow, I'm free to have another go at the bad shit luck threw my way today. I don't believe I'm up against God's will.

Who flipped the genetic switch? I know another scientific word. Hemolytic uremic syndrome. This is usually where the e.coli bacteria is broken down in your colon and it's deadly toxins are released through your blood system to all your body. First there's horrifically violent vomitting and bloody diarhea. Then, the child turns ashen as the she comes near to death with anemia and kidney failure. Eventually, after days of this suffering, trauma, and fear, you make it to the emergency room, and the residents come out and explain that term to you. HUS is where the e.coli toxins damage the kidney, which destroys red blood cells and subsequently clogs up the kidneys. You get kidney failure, severe anemia, transfusions, dialysis, and a fun stay in the ICU. Not to mention, in many cases, lung, heart, brain damage, and in about 30% of the cases, mostly children, you die. Did I mention that this too is likely a genetic disposition towards suffering the illness?

This happened to our two year old twin girl about 5 years ago. She had HUS with kidney failure. Thankfully, she recovered and is fine now. Thanks to God that is. Or should that be thanks to the doctor's and no thanks to God? Now we have a kid with auto-immune disease. That's a load of bad crap for anyone, but I believe that hey, it could happen. Tomorrow will be a new day, and we'll move on. My wife has to believe it happened once for a reason. Now it's happened again. Tomorrow will be governed by the same guy.

So if the first time, all her prayer lists bring God's saving grace, and even if the second time it works like a charm, you've still got to ask yourself, why me in the first place? And, what happens when the prayers don't come true? Children with genetic disorders suffer and die. Who flipped the switch, and what do Christians pray for then? What do you give thanks for then?

Just rhetorical questions Brightlife, but hopefully someone will answer.

Thanks for the well wishes, and as we say in the ITP world, peace and platelets!

[Alter]

Switches are chance.

*Solutions* to such diseases only come from one place: Science.

[BadBadBad]

But the Intelligent Design does not allow nature to fuck up.

In the case of genetics, whose to say that genetic illness is fucked up?

Things being random is just as ignorant as things being divine in that both attribute the real cause to an unknown source. The only difference is that in one case God is recognized as the unknown cause in the chain of events while random selection allows nature to bang away on its own without a mind of its own.

I don't have a problem with unknown cause. I don't understand why that's a problem we need to solve. I also don't understand how inserting a nebulous meaningless term like god into the causal chain that somehow you feel satisfied the matter is resolved.

Where the above fails is that we are co-creators with God who himself is the first cause but not the final cause of the created. The created 'being' is the essence of God that becomes manifest in the DNA of Lord God (is us) to whom we add intelligence via the Tree of Knowledge into the Tree of Life (read Gen.3:6 twice). In the material world this would be via our conscious mind into our subconscious mind where it becomes tied to our RNA and on into the DNA to set the trigger on these switches.

I'm a scientific layman when it comes to genetics Chili. I had to look up RNA. RNA is a complex string of atoms structurally indistinguishable from DNA. So we're still talking about complex strings of atoms that are created upon conception. We are creators of life not because of some co-conspiracy between God, the tree of knowledge, tree of life, and our conscious/subconscious mind. We are creators of life only in our part by eating right and having hopefully wild sex on Saturday night. I don't see any metaphysical tie between that and the specific mechanisms of combining complex strings of atoms in such a way that genetic illnesses will result.

Our DNA is genetic, ie switches are switches, and our RNA is incarnate upon us via the bloodstream wherefore we are predetermined with regard to our destiny in life but not entirely because our RNA is not genetic. In this sense is destiny a matter of mind over matter and therefore miracles can and do happen.

I think you're going to have to work a lot harder at tying atomic chemistry to supernatural influence. You're throwing these terms around as if the link was obvious. It's mind boggling to imagine a God as puppeteer of all atomic chemical reactions from the beginning of time. I'm not asking you to establish that though. I've granted that it could happen, but if God is the cause of atoms combining into the DNA, how am I co-creator? You're going to have to look somewhere else besides a story with firmaments in the sky, man from dust, and woman from a rib, magical trees, and talking serpents. If that's all you've got, you're not going to make much progress here.

Hope this helps and may your unspoken prayer come true for you and yours.

No, reading the Bible will never help understanding atomic chemistry. Science helps us understand the Bible not the other way around, only we learn the Bible isn't true.

I hope for my child. I don't pray spoken or unspoken prayers to imaginary gods. I appreciate your well wishes and hope though even if you call them prayers.

[Arctish]

posted by BadBadBad
So my conclusion is that if God exists, God flips the switches. If God flips the switches, then these genetic illnesses along with all their suffering are predestined by God. Either God flipped a switch that for sure means you'll get an illness or horrible genetic defect, or God flips a switch with perfect foresight knowing absolutely that you'll get the illness. Either way it seems that according to Christianity, God is the villain here regardless of whether he comes in at the end and miraculously saves the day or whether he lets the suffering continue through a devastating illness and death. Forgive me for not offering my thanks!

This I think is another one of those times when the christian apologist hops from left foot to right foot while claiming he is levitating (who was it who first came up with that description?).

The anti-abortion pro-birth christians like to quote Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Clearly the claim being made here is that god forms each one of us in the wombs of our mothers. Fundamental christians will insist this is the literal truth. Yet at the same time they will insist that such things as genetic disorders are the handiwork of fallen mankind, not of god. They ignore the implications of Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

I would perfer they make up their minds about what is or is not god responsibility. If god forms each one of us in our mother's wombs then genetic disorders are deliberately caused by god. If god is not responsible for such things then he does not supervise or participate in the process of human formation. I can understand why the religious would have a problem here though. One option makes god cruel towards human beings (very OT) the other makes him disinterested in human beings (very deist). Neither one fits the "What a friend we have in Jesus " image currently being pushed by the evangelicals.

I hope all goes well for you and your family, Brett.

[Chili]

One option makes god cruel towards human beings (very OT) the other makes him disinterested in human beings (very deist). Neither one fits the "What a friend we have in Jesus " image currently being pushed by the evangelicals.

I hope all goes well for you and your family, Brett.

No Gemma, with all respect to your good intentions I must add that it is the Lord as second cause who forms the body after we have added our input as human co-creator with the Father via the conception of the seed within the human womb (note here that God as God is first cause). At this stage do we provide the substance that contains the impurities of human love after we have extrapolated this from divine Love that has no opposite except in both good and evil as third and human cause.

It is futile to argue that we invented love but acceptable to argue that we added our human nature to the love we have for each other and out of which new life is created.

I quite agree that it is poor consolation to fiend a friend in Jesus when things go wrong.

[BadBadBad]

No Gemma, with all respect to your good intentions I must add that it is the Lord as second cause who forms the body after we have added our input as human co-creator with the Father via the conception of the seed within the human womb (note here that God as God is first cause). At this stage do we provide the substance that contains the impurities of human love after we have extrapolated this from divine Love that has no opposite except in both good and evil as third and human cause.

It is futile to argue that we invented love but acceptable to argue that we added our human nature to the love we have for each other and out of which new life is created.

I quite agree that it is poor consolation to fiend a friend in Jesus when things go wrong.

Chili, we're talking about genetics here. We're talking literally about atoms. I've asked before, and I see you didn't respond. Please explain the specifics of how I personally cause and influence chemical reactions at the atomic level in the fertilized egg of a woman. Perhaps you might right a scientific paper on that and submit it for peer review. Surely you recognize you'll have to do more than quote the Bible, especially when Gemma has just posted verses that contradict you.

[BadBadBad]

The anti-abortion pro-birth christians like to quote Jeremiah 1:5

Hmmm, that's interesting. Chaupoline in another thread tells me that we are aware of our existence first, and we learn everything else through our senses. This verse tends to support that. I think I even asked him if he was aware of his existence before he was born, and how could he tell. Funny, I don't remember being aware of God before I was born. I don't think Chaupoline ever answered the question.

I'm a little surprised that the Bible doesn't mention any co-creators in this verse, according to what Chili has been telling me. ;)

Clearly the claim being made here is that god forms each one of us in the wombs of our mothers. Fundamental christians will insist this is the literal truth.

So I saw two possibilities for how this might work. One, God could have intervened from the beginning of time and set forth an unimaginable process where God predestined every atomic chemical reation such that my parents would meet, reproduce, and their DNA chains would merge atom for atom until my DNA chain was formed. In this case, before the beginning of time, I can't cause or co-create anything since I don't exist. God predesitines every atom in my DNA chain. God predestines genetic illness and suffering.

The second option is that God intervenes in my conception at the time of my conception. I suspect that God must choose a specific sperm cell to make it's way and penetrate the egg wall. Whether it has to be a specific sperm cell, I don't know. Let's proceed from there. At that point, God has to specifically decide and interact in the merging of atoms between the mother and father DNA chains. This atom from the mother, green eyes. This atom from the father, brown hair. These atoms from the father, genetic illness.

What Chili is saying is that God creates me to be who he wants me to be, but that something in the process of sorting atoms between the two DNA chains is fucked up because of original sin. Here God is sorting atoms. "This child will be like is grandmother in this way. He'll look like his grandfather in this way. He'll be like his father in this way. He'll be like God in this way. Ah yes, and here is the set of atoms, this original sin distortion factor. Unfortunately, I see this includes this particular set of atoms that will result absolutely in genetic illness and horrible suffering. Oh, yes and in this case, a pitiful and untimely death. Damn that A&E. I can't change that one set of atoms and flip that one gene without fucking up the entire universe."

I hope all goes well for you and your family, Brett.

That reminds me. We're not very good at it yet, but aren't I screwing around with God's big plan here? I mean, if a child has a genetic related disorder, are we playing God here? What about gene therapy? What if we get much better at this? What if we learn to identify specific genes that cause problems and learn to be effective at changing them? If this genetic problem was a result of some original sin genetic function, am I beating on the door with a medical cure for original sin? Will curing one child of a genetic disorder fuck up God's entire plan for the universe? If I can do it, what does it say about God that he wouldn't? Just a thought!

I'll report back next week with some news on the surgery, and I might even get some early good news on the platelets.

[Chili]

Chili, we're talking about genetics here. We're talking literally about atoms. I've asked before, and I see you didn't respond. Please explain the specifics of how I personally cause and influence chemical reactions at the atomic level in the fertilized egg of a woman. Perhaps you might right a scientific paper on that and submit it for peer review. Surely you recognize you'll have to do more than quote the Bible, especially when Gemma has just posted verses that contradict you.

Exactly and those who do not believe in God should take responsibility for their own actions especially if they claim to be in charge of their own destiny and not blame mother nature to fuck up on their behalf.

But I did not say that you tampered with the woman's egg. I am just stating that our input is the only place that life can be put at risk in the human body. This input is the manifestation of our intelligence from the TOK into the TOL and on into the RNA where it affects the DNA . . . for there is nothing else.

Brett was wrong in claiming that God "forms" because in Gen.2 it clearly states that "Lord God" forms.

Brett fails to recognize that we are Lord God (after realization) and therefore are responsible for our destiny as the manifestation of the handiwork of our ancestors -- who were also Lord God in their essence of being.

[BadBadBad]

Exactly and those who do not believe in God should take responsibility for their own actions especially if they claim to be in charge of their own destiny and not blame mother nature to fuck up on their behalf.

I'm not blaming anyone. I don't believe in God, so I'm certainly not blaiming him. I believe that bad genes are fucked up in the same was as bad weather. I don't like it, but who cares? Now, let's stick with my actions that led to my childrens' illness and suffering. It wasn't really me was it? Don't you really mean A&E?

But I did not say that you tampered with the woman's egg.

How can you avoid saying that? That's what the OP is all about. The DNA chains from a mother and father are merged atom by atom such that a child's DNA chain contains defects leading to genetic illness and suffering. You've claimed that God and I are co-creators of this complex chain of atoms. God as a creator is no surprise. Me as a co-creator of a specific DNA chain of atoms due to my specific action is quite a news story.

You're making a specific scientific claim. Do you have any evidence to base that claim on?

[Chili]

I'm not blaming anyone. I don't believe in God, so I'm certainly not blaiming him. I believe that bad genes are fucked up in the same was as bad weather. I don't like it, but who cares? Now, let's stick with my actions that led to my childrens' illness and suffering. It wasn't really me was it? Don't you really mean A&E?

It is certainly not my intent to lay blame and I did not respond to your earlier post to avoid conflict. It is simply that and no more.

You're making a specific scientific claim. Do you have any evidence to base that claim on?

It is a metaphysical claim wherein our genes behave in certain ways as predetermined by our heritage for the most part, and to a lesser degree by our own actions. I understand that what I am pointing at is much deeper than our 'will' to get sick or not sick but I see a chain of command to exist that leads to the behavior of our genes and this chain of command is incarnate upon us from previous generations.

In my view there is no history in the bible with Adam and Eve being the two effective causes that lead to actions in our conscious mind. So you can't blame Adam and Eve and not even your own conscious mind that was a blank slate at birth. Notice that Adam and Eve were not called into existence until Gen.3. In truth, they were conjectured in the conscious mind of man after the conscious mind (TOK) was recognized as a valuable source for gaining wisdom, health and happiness (Gen.3:6).

No I have no scientific evidence but can point out that it is no mere coincidence that our sexual identity has changed after the modern "gender equal" society was introduced to modify the old opposite sex outlook on our person.

[BadBadBad]

It is a metaphysical claim wherein our genes behave in certain ways as predetermined by our heritage for the most part, and to a lesser degree by our own actions.

Where does the science of chemistry leave room for the metaphysical? I have two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom. I can define mathematical equations and I can test how the atoms interact. I think the basic science of genetics has in many ways reached that level of understanding. Where does this leave room for some magical metaphysical interaction?

Why do you even claim it's metaphysical? We're talking about atoms here. What you're claiming is that there are some metaphysical forces acting on atoms. That's not metaphysical, that's physical. A force can be measured, and we've measured it, we understand it, and there's zero room for mystery.

No I have no scientific evidence

We have a huge amount of scientific evidence Chili. It just doesn't say what you want it to. What you want it to say is what the Bible says, but it doesn't say that. I don't even think it's leaving much if any room for mystery. Is it some sort of metaphysical mystery as to how we can be so certain the Earth is round, or is the Bible just flat wrong about that?

[Chili]

Where does the science of chemistry leave room for the metaphysical?

It doesn't, but are we not wondering why things went wrong?

We have a huge amount of scientific evidence Chili. It just doesn't say what you want it to. What you want it to say is what the Bible says, but it doesn't say that.

We have lots of scientific evidence and we have lots of bible students. I am not either one of those and would never suggest that they should meet in the middle, somewhere, or even talk to each other to try and solve problems like this. That is your idea, not mine. My suggestion was that intelligence does influence our destiny for a period of many generations to come in the same way as we are a product of many generations of our past.

[J-D]

BadBadBad, I hope things turn out well for your son.

About all the Christians praying for you to their God: remember, their God doesn't exist. The people do, and their prayers, however irrationally founded, are an expression of their goodwill toward you and your son, just like the good wishes being expressed by people on this board. At least, it might help to try to think of it like that.

Chili, I think you are also motivated by goodwill, but I don't understand what you're saying and I don't get the impression anybody else does either. It doesn't seem to be helping.

[BadBadBad]

BadBadBad, I hope things turn out well for your son.

Thanks.

About all the Christians praying for you to their God: remember, their God doesn't exist. The people do, and their prayers, however irrationally founded, are an expression of their goodwill toward you and your son, just like the good wishes being expressed by people on this board. At least, it might help to try to think of it like that.

This is the second time I've had my kids on prayer lists and what not. The concern and support is very honest and genuine, and I always take it that way. I don't find that offensive at all.

I just shake my head though. They prayed for a year and a half that this illness would go away. That didn't work. Now they'll pray that surgery takes care of it. If that works, then Praise God Halelujah, it's a miracle! All the while, it never occurs to them to question where God was during all this suffering. Even if in this case, it wasn't much.

For ITP, there's no explicit evidence linking it to genetics, but there's suspicion by some pretty brilliant doctors. It just got me thinking that genetic disorders present a pretty disturbing case for God's direct involvement in suffering.