Magic

[kaleidescope]

How does science view magic/illusion/the works of people like David Blaine?
Personal example,
A magician, I certainly never met or even heard of prior to this time, had me bring him a $50. bill. He gave me a red marker, told me to write his name on it, initials of a kid in the audience and a birthday of someone else in the audience. he folded the bill up as many time as possible, places it in a chamber (which I found to be empty) closed up, I crank the chamber he displays bits of "dollar bill". he sends our attention to a small locked box several feet away. he gives me a key. i open the box to find a kiwi. the magician takes a knife, cuts around the kiwi, separating top from bottom and displays the folded up $50 in the center of the kiwi. unfolded, it is the $50 with my red writing on it. He also made a bottle of beer disappear, really cool!

Personally, I think David Blaine has tapped into human potentials that most of us don't consider we have or don't bother to tap into or aren't as highly self-actualized as he.

[Duck!]

Personally, I think David Blaine has tapped into human potentials that most of us don't consider we have or don't bother to tap into or aren't as highly self-actualized as he.Having seen a documentary that exposed the methods behind a lot of David Blaine's tricks, it's hard to believe that anything he does is supernatural. I have difficulty imagining that he's both a sleight-of-hand trickster and has genuine supernatural powers.

If he's got real supernatural powers, then what's he doing all the other cheap tricks for? Does he want people to believe he's the real thing or not?


Duck!

[Hiero5ant]

How does science view magic/illusion/the works of people like David Blaine?

The same way such stage performers view themselves -- as con artists who specialize in lying as a form of entertainment.


Personally, I think David Blaine has tapped into human potentials that most of us don't consider we have or don't bother to tap into or aren't as highly self-actualized as he.

He has indeed tapped into a human potential: our infinite gullibility.

[Anglican]

On one of David Blaine's DVD he actually 'shows' you how he does some of his tricks, howver this is little more than a ruse to divert people from the fact he is a foul warlock.

[diGriz]

It is almost all just misdirection and very quick hands. Oh, and a helluva lot of practice. It's not actual magic, sorry to dissapoint you. I've read books and seen videos on how that stuff is done and there is no wand nor pixie dust involved. I used to know this guy that could hide a half a stack of cards in his hands w/o you being able to see it, and he could switch it around so fast that he could turn his hand over and you couldn't see the cards. Then he could flip out a card or two at a time, it really looked like he was pulling cards out of thin air.

All that stuff David Blaine does, it just takes an unreal amount of practice, and in his case natural talent. Most of what David Blaine does is sleight of hand, he doesn't use as many gimmicks as some of the magicians out there (Copperfield, Siegfried & Roy.) Just about anyone could replicate the stuff Copperfield does if they had the same equipment, it's just very well machined props.

[Chamaeleon]

I'm curious as to why anyone would think the magic discussed in the OP wouldn't be sufficiently explained by sleight of hand.

Of course, there's always the following dilemma...

Random Bossist #1: Hes a witch!
The Amazing Rudof: No, just a skilled illusionist. That is my point.
Random Bossist #2: If you're just an illusionist, tell us how you made a bird appear.
The Amazing Rudof: A magician never reveals his tricks. I'm bound by the magician's code of ethics.
Random Bossist #1: Well that's awfully convenient, isn't it? That sounds like something a witch would say!
Random Bossist #2: Kill the witch!
http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-940/epid-12018 :notworthy

[kaleidescope]

It is almost all just misdirection and very quick hands. Oh, and a helluva lot of practice. It's not actual magic, sorry to dissapoint you. I've read books and seen videos on how that stuff is done and there is no wand nor pixie dust involved. I used to know this guy that could hide a half a stack of cards in his hands w/o you being able to see it, and he could switch it around so fast that he could turn his hand over and you couldn't see the cards. Then he could flip out a card or two at a time, it really looked like he was pulling cards out of thin air.

All that stuff David Blaine does, it just takes an unreal amount of practice, and in his case natural talent. Most of what David Blaine does is sleight of hand, he doesn't use as many gimmicks as some of the magicians out there (Copperfield, Siegfried & Roy.) Just about anyone could replicate the stuff Copperfield does if they had the same equipment, it's just very well machined props.

so the guy managed to get my $50 in the middle of a full, whole kiwi in the matter of a handfull of minutes, i know i never saw him leave my right side, and the box with the kiwi was over to my left side by several feet?
I missed Blaine's levitation stunt, does anyone have details on it?

[Undercurrent]

He also made a bottle of beer disappear, really cool!

I have performed this same trick on several occassions; Sometimes even several times in rapid succession.

Is Blaine one of the ones who pretends he's doing real magic? I know that a good number of magicians are very adimate that while they don't give out their secrets, there is, in fact, a secret, and outside of their shows dissuade people from believing that they're doing "real magic".

[Atheos]

No matter how sophisticated it seems, magic tricks are just that -- tricks. I'm sure any magician who could really perform magic would love to take advantage of the million dollar prize offered by James Randi (http://www.randi.org/) for any proof of supernatural power. I don't know how wealthy David Blaine is but I can't help thinking he'd be a fool not to take advantage of this easy money if he really has some sort of supernatural power.

-Atheos

[Chamaeleon]

so the guy managed to get my $50 in the middle of a full, whole kiwi in the matter of a handfull of minutes, i know i never saw him leave my right side, and the box with the kiwi was over to my left side by several feet?
1. The magician puts the bill in the chamber (read: does not, concealing it in his hand instead)
2. The magician picks up the kiwi (with bill hidden in his hand)
3. The magician cuts it with a knife (pushing the bill into the kiwi during the cutting process)

Which step is does not match your experience?

I missed Blaine's levitation stunt, does anyone have details on it?
Have you tried Google? :) "Blaine" and "levitate" should give you ample reading material...

[BioBeing]

No matter how sophisticated it seems, magic tricks are just that -- tricks. I'm sure any magician who could really perform magic would love to take advantage of the million dollar prize offered by James Randi (http://www.randi.org/) for any proof of supernatural power.
Randi was of course a stage magician himself. He is very open about how it is all sleight of hand. Penn and Teller too, who now host a show called Bullshit! on Showtime in the US, and are definitely NOT magicians of the supernatural variety.

[Loren Pechtel]

Magic is simply trickery. My father used to do magic long ago and he taught me some of the principles behind it. At least 90% of magic I see I can see at least one way it could be done and if I see it again I get a fair number of the ones I missed the first time around.

[Schneibster]

Ha, analyzing magic. Enjoy it! Over-analysis (i.e. buying that it's real) kind of ruins the, errrmmm, magic. Heh.

My understanding is that there are three components, mixed in different degrees for each trick:

Misdirection of the attention of the audience
Excellent manual dexterity
Knowledge of physical attributes of objects that are not common knowledge

I have never seen a magic trick I could not account for using these principles.

[Dark Knight Bob]

The floating lady is the biggest load of crap when explained.

Using the 'magic' of an industrial forklift hidden from view the woman 'magically' floats.

But yeah magic can be fun, though i tend not to find be tricked and being told it's magic very entertaining, i'd rather have the magic shown to me then being shown how it's done. Kind of why i went with science. Cos the natural world is even MORE amazing when you find out how it really works whereas street magic is just 'he's got it hidden up his ass'

Derren Brown is great though. Mainly because you can sort of guess at how he's doing it but you realise it's taking a lot of experience and talent to do it.

[Corwin]

Blaine is actually extremely unpopular with other performing magicians. He uses shills and camera tricks rather than skill and practice.

Basically he cheats. (Doing a card trick with someone who's in on it instead of practicing being able to palm the card he wants and shuffle the deck properly, for example.)

[Boro Nut]

My understanding is that there are three components, mixed in different degrees for each trick:

Misdirection of the attention of the audience
Excellent manual dexterity
Knowledge of physical attributes of objects that are not common knowledge

I have never seen a magic trick I could not account for using these principles.

What about Gandalf's smoke rings? They defy the laws of physics.

His more pyrotechnic displays may be more eyecatching, but could easily be explained by him having elves.

Boro Nut

[Boro Nut]

Personally, I think David Blaine has tapped into human potentials that most of us don't consider we have or don't bother to tap into or aren't as highly self-actualized as he.

That's right. He has tapped into the little understood ability to say 'There are no camera tricks in my show' and have a television audiance believe him. I especially like the way he shows a staged levitation and splices it directly into the reaction of the real levitation where the girls scream "OH MY GOD!!!! HE CAN TIPTOE ON ONE FOOT!!!!"

Boro Nut

[Schneibster]

What about Gandalf's smoke rings? They defy the laws of physics.I have never seen Gandalf's smoke rings. I have only read about them.

His more pyrotechnic displays may be more eyecatching, but could easily be explained by him having elves.

Boro NutGandalf doesn't need help with his magic from the Eldar, although he is never impolite about declining it.

[starling]

On one of David Blaine's DVD he actually 'shows' you how he does some of his tricks, howver this is little more than a ruse to divert people from the fact he is a foul warlock.:rolling: Well that one made my night. :D

[Dark Knight Bob]

Well you know he did accidentaly learn the black arts whilst in a freak washing machine accident :D

[Loren Pechtel]

Blaine is actually extremely unpopular with other performing magicians. He uses shills and camera tricks rather than skill and practice.

Basically he cheats. (Doing a card trick with someone who's in on it instead of practicing being able to palm the card he wants and shuffle the deck properly, for example.)

I didn't know he was unpopular but I do agree about the camera tricks. He was baffling me at times until I realized that the only sane explanation was that the cameraman was in on it, cropping the picture exactly where it needed to be in order to make it work.

[ZouPrime]

kaleidescope, you should check out James Randi (http://www.randi.org) web site. He's a professionnal magicians who now runs an educational foundation aimed at exposing fraudulant supernatural claims. Read his commentaries, they are full of very interesting insight in the world of magicians.

[Kingreaper]

That's right. He has tapped into the little understood ability to say 'There are no camera tricks in my show' and have a television audiance believe him. I especially like the way he shows a staged levitation and splices it directly into the reaction of the real levitation where the girls scream "OH MY GOD!!!! HE CAN TIPTOE ON ONE FOOT!!!!"

Boro Nut
You really shouldn't use this account to say true things


people will assume you must be joking

[jonesg]

How does science view magic/illusion/the works of people like David Blaine?
Personal example,
A magician, I certainly never met or even heard of prior to this time, had me bring him a $50. bill. He gave me a red marker, told me to write his name on it, initials of a kid in the audience and a birthday of someone else in the audience. he folded the bill up as many time as possible, places it in a chamber (which I found to be empty) closed up, I crank the chamber he displays bits of "dollar bill". he sends our attention to a small locked box several feet away. he gives me a key. i open the box to find a kiwi. the magician takes a knife, cuts around the kiwi, separating top from bottom and displays the folded up $50 in the center of the kiwi. unfolded, it is the $50 with my red writing on it. He also made a bottle of beer disappear, really cool!

Personally, I think David Blaine has tapped into human potentials that most of us don't consider we have or don't bother to tap into or aren't as highly self-actualized as he.

I have a freind who apprenticed with a magician, he started out rolling a coin across the back of his hand, back and forth flip flopping the coin with palms down from one finger to the next, then under his palm to come back up and so on, he was told he would have to perform that with both hands, both rolling the coil across the tops of his fingers (palms down) and then he could be taught the next step, its excruciating and so he dropped out. Its not magic but they are talented.

[Norseman]

How does science view magic/illusion/the works of people like David Blaine?
Personal example,
A magician, I certainly never met or even heard of prior to this time, had me bring him a $50. bill. He gave me a red marker, told me to write his name on it, initials of a kid in the audience and a birthday of someone else in the audience. he folded the bill up as many time as possible, places it in a chamber (which I found to be empty) closed up, I crank the chamber he displays bits of "dollar bill". he sends our attention to a small locked box several feet away. he gives me a key. i open the box to find a kiwi. the magician takes a knife, cuts around the kiwi, separating top from bottom and displays the folded up $50 in the center of the kiwi. unfolded, it is the $50 with my red writing on it. He also made a bottle of beer disappear, really cool!

Personally, I think David Blaine has tapped into human potentials that most of us don't consider we have or don't bother to tap into or aren't as highly self-actualized as he.

Yeah... magic. I'll bet.

It sounds like when the box closed, the bill went to one of the behind the scene guys, who then inserted the $50 into the kiwi and placed it in the second box. Blaine shows the fragments of a dead dollar bill to you, disposes of them, gets the kiwi, and oooh and aaaah.

[chapka]

How does science view magic/illusion/the works of people like David Blaine?

The same way they do other phenomena. Where possible, they reproduce them under controlled conditions. For example, do you think the trick would still have worked with someone other than the magician cutting the kiwi? If not, that tends to support the palm-the-bill hypothesis.

Also, is it just me, or does "cutting the kiwi" sound like it ought to be an obscure Australian obscenity?

[Bilbato]

On one of David Blaine's DVD he actually 'shows' you how he does some of his tricks, howver this is little more than a ruse to divert people from the fact he is a foul warlock.

hahahaha That is one of the funniest thing I have probably have ever read. Warlock... hahahaha. Anyways, if David Blaine was a warlock, it would not be magic, it would be majick. Magic just refers to the illusory i.e. stage magicians much like David Blaine. Magick is the form of incantation and other shit to control nature and cast "spells." Of course, scientifically, Magick is just a bunch of bull shit as there is no real way to prove such a thing exists empirically.

So before you start another Salem, try getting your facts straight and actually understanding other peoples beliefs before you start just throwing around words.

[Mageth]

hahahaha That is one of the funniest thing I have probably have ever read. Warlock... hahahaha. Anyways, if David Blaine was a warlock, it would not be magic, it would be majick. Magic just refers to the illusory i.e. stage magicians much like David Blaine. Magick is the form of incantation and other shit to control nature and cast "spells." Of course, scientifically, Magick is just a bunch of bull shit as there is no real way to prove such a thing exists empirically.

So before you start another Salem, try getting your facts straight and actually understanding other peoples beliefs before you start just throwing around words.

What irony.

This is funnier than Anglican's very funny comment. :D

[Bilbato]

What irony.

This is funnier than Anglican's very funny comment. :D

I assume because I am ranting on about something I don't care about? Or because I took the time to correct Anglican's comment?

[Mageth]

I assume because I am ranting on about something I don't care about? Or because I took the time to correct Anglican's comment?

Because you totally misunderstood Anglican's comment, which dripped with sarcasm, and didn't "try to get your facts straight" before you started "just throwing around words." You know, by asking "Are you serious?"

(I'll note that I'm 99.9% sure that Anglican's comment was sarcasm and wasn't intended seriously - there's a 0.1% chance that it was, but judging by Anglican's other posts on this board (which I did take the time to investigate, thus making an effort at "understanding other peoples beliefs"), maybe not even that much).

[Bilbato]

*runs and hides from embarrassment* :o

[kaleidescope]

I am not saying every magician is honest "magic." The point I am actually trying to make is, I think it is on the foolish side to say absolutely not, the mind is not powerful enough to move things without picking them up in your hand and moving them to where you want the thing to go. Wouldn't it be great to clean house with your thoughts. What a wonderful time saver, and the job would very likely be more thoroughly done. Supermen/humans. I think Gods made the Giza pyramid (the most amazing of the seven wonders) and stone circles with their minds. Perhaps their physical contribution was placing the adhesive, the material of which can't be found on earth. I cannot imagine being able to scaffold a triangle. They must have levitated to the higher places. Perhaps right now, Gods don't trust us with higher powers, rightfully so. Unlimit your thoughts, unlimit yourself.

[Mageth]

I am not saying every magician is honest "magic." The point I am actually trying to make is, I think it is on the foolish side to say absolutely not, the mind is not powerful enough to move things without picking them up in your hand and moving them to where you want the thing to go.

Well, it's absolutely not, and I'm not "on the foolish" side by saying so.

Wouldn't it be great to clean house with your thoughts. What a wonderful time saver, and the job would very likely be more thoroughly done.

Yes it would, but "if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride."

So break out the vacuum, mop, and duster and get busy. It ain't going to clean itself.

Supermen/humans. I think Gods made the Giza pyramid (the most amazing of the seven wonders) and stone circles with their minds.

And a rather large camp of craftesmen and laborers, evidence of which has been recently discovered.

Perhaps their physical contribution was placing the adhesive, the material of which can't be found on earth.

:huh: What are you talking about?

I cannot imagine being able to scaffold a triangle. They must have levitated to the higher places.

Humankind discovered the basic tools of the ramp, fulcrum and lever, wheel etc etc a long time ago, which are sufficient to explain how the pyramids were constructed. No magic levitational powers necessary.

Perhaps right now, Gods don't trust us with higher powers, rightfully so. Unlimit your thoughts, unlimit yourself.

I did so, and thus I know there are ways the Pyramids could have been constructed without having to fall back on magical levitation powers.

[Corwin]

I am not saying every magician is honest "magic." The point I am actually trying to make is, I think it is on the foolish side to say absolutely not, the mind is not powerful enough to move things without picking them up in your hand and moving them to where you want the thing to go. Wouldn't it be great to clean house with your thoughts. What a wonderful time saver, and the job would very likely be more thoroughly done. Supermen/humans. I think Gods made the Giza pyramid (the most amazing of the seven wonders) and stone circles with their minds. Perhaps their physical contribution was placing the adhesive, the material of which can't be found on earth. I cannot imagine being able to scaffold a triangle. They must have levitated to the higher places. Perhaps right now, Gods don't trust us with higher powers, rightfully so. Unlimit your thoughts, unlimit yourself.

Ahem.... (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/builders.html)

[Boro Nut]

I did so, and thus I know there are ways the Pyramids could have been constructed without having to fall back on magical levitation powers.

Apart from the manpower involved the pyramids are no great shakes. And it took them how many failed attempts to get one right? And then only at the angle of repose of loose sand. And after all that time and effort there was only room to bury one person! No wonder pyramids never caught on. Meanwhile the rest of the world was happily developing vertical walls enclosing useable spaces, leaving the Egyptians lagging far behind. Think of all the major civil engineering projects around the world in the last century and ask yourself exactly how many were won by Pharaoh & Sons Construction.

Boro Nut

[Chamaeleon]

I have the Brooklyn bridge for sale.

[Atheos]

Yeah, it's getting kind of deep when we start wandering into serious contemplation of such things as psychokinesis, mental telepathy, etc. Time to get the boots out.

I'll start believing it when Randi looses his million.

-Atheos

[Duck!]

I think Gods made the Giza pyramid (the most amazing of the seven wonders) and stone circles with their minds. I've never been impressed with the idea that aliens or God built the pyramids. They're not that impressive. If they were carved out of titanium or diamond with laser precision, then you can start thinking about alien or supernatural technology.

Look at the Empire State Building or the Golden Gate Bridge, designed and built by humans, they're much more impressive. Can't God do better than mere humans?

Anyway, isn't one of the earliest Egyptian pyramids the Bent Pyramid, so called because it starts out at a steep angle, then the builders realised it wasn't going to work, so they built the top half at a lower angle? Did God make a mistake with this one?

Perhaps their physical contribution was placing the adhesive, the material of which can't be found on earth. I cannot imagine being able to scaffold a triangle. They must have levitated to the higher places. Perhaps right now, Gods don't trust us with higher powers, rightfully so. Unlimit your thoughts, unlimit yourself.You've lost me. The adhesive? What adhesive do you need for a pyramid? The laws of physics are enough to hold it in place. It's not like it's going to topple over or collapse into the desert below without special adhesive holding the stones together.

That's why it's the shape it is, a tapering tower is very stable and much easier to build than a narrow tower or a tower which doesn't taper much. It was the obvious shape for a civilization without the advantage of more modern engineering or materials to build it's temples.


Duck!

[Dark Knight Bob]

Slave drivers with very big whips is a good enough explanation for me as to how the pyramids got built.

[Jinksy]

Ha, analyzing magic. Enjoy it! Over-analysis (i.e. buying that it's real) kind of ruins the, errrmmm, magic. Heh.

My understanding is that there are three components, mixed in different degrees for each trick:

Misdirection of the attention of the audience
Excellent manual dexterity
Knowledge of physical attributes of objects that are not common knowledge

I have never seen a magic trick I could not account for using these principles.

What about simple ingenuity? I suppose it could broadly fit into your 3rd category, but that's kinda underselling it. People like David Copperfield, Penn & Teller etc. aren't successful because they went to an Ivy League Magic School school, but because they can think of simple but counter-intuitive ways to cause objects to behave in ways that we wouldn't normally expect them to.

[BioBeing]

Slave drivers with very big whips is a good enough explanation for me as to how the pyramids got built.
Current thinking seems to be that they were paid workers, not slaves. See Corwin's Link above.

[Corwin]

Current thinking seems to be that they were paid workers, not slaves. See Corwin's Link above.

Yeah, the 'armies of slaves' idea was mostly the result of a dramatic overestimation of how many people would be needed for the job.

A fair portion of the work was just too important to trust to slaves.

[walt6]

I have to shake my head in disbelief that someone in this day and age still thinks that a stage magician would have supernatural powers. Where did we go wrong?

I find it interesting about Randi that some people think he actually does magic, and that his exposees are just a cover up to hide the fact that he is truly a magician.

[kaleidescope]

After doing my Google research on Blaine, I am all the more convinced he is absolutely for real. He travels the globe wearing a t-shirt. All you have to do is watch the faces of those he's in front of to realize he has no props to hide anything. Some people are down right frightened to witness his magic. Is everything he does magic?, maybe, maybe not.
One of his acts that stepped out for me: he goes up to a guy, asks him if he'd like to win some money. Blaine gives the guy money to buy three scratch offs. Then tells the guy to pick two to scratch. I don't quite remember his winnings, but they were far above the commonly won $2.00 to buy another scratch off and sometimes it's difficult to even win $2.00. It was cashed on the show.
How on earth you all can't find any substance in unlimiting your minds blows my mind.

[Marruk]

After doing my Google research on Blaine, I am all the more convinced he is absolutely for real. He travels the globe wearing a t-shirt.

Really good magicians can do tricks without a shirt on. I grew up near casinos and I got to meet a few stage actors as a kid (my mom was a waitress and she made friends with these guys because my brother and I adored magic as kids). I knew a guy who would do amazing tricks with cards without wearing a shirt. He was even nice enough to show my brother and I how he did it. It takes a ton of practice, and my brother and I just didn't have the dexterity to pull the tricks off, but they were still tricks. It was very neat to watch this guy pull cards out of what apeared to be thin air, but again it was just a trick.

[Undercurrent]

After doing my Google research on Blaine, I am all the more convinced he is absolutely for real. He travels the globe wearing a t-shirt.

This is another trick I am quite skilled it. The secret is to put your head through the bottom first, then stick your arms through the sleeves, and only then attempt to stick your head through the neck hole. It's really quite simple once you get the hang of it. The only real catch is making sure the tag is to the back when you're done.

All you have to do is watch the faces of those he's in front of to realize he has no props to hide anything. Some people are down right frightened to witness his magic. Is everything he does magic?, maybe, maybe not.

Really all you're saying is that he manages to impress other people. I can juggle. It really impresses little kids who have never seen juggling before. It's not magic, just practice.

How on earth you all can't find any substance in unlimiting your minds blows my mind.

Honestly, the only limitations is see being placed on minds here are yours. Saying "X is magic" is the same as saying "I give up on trying to explain X". We live in a world of atoms and wavefunctions and time intervals that change based on how fast you're moving and black holes all discovered to a one by people who broke through the plebian confines of magical thinking. Are these not wonderful aspects of the uinverse we live in? Doesn't the fruitfulness of these ventures of dicovery indicate that we should continue down these paths to see where they go rather than reverting the small-minded magical surrenders of our forebearers?

Your statments that we should accept "magic" as a property of the universe to "unlimit" our minds ring as hollow as the theistic assertions that we should experience the freedom of being a slave to a deity.

[Duck!]

Is everything he does magic?, maybe, maybe not. If he's got genuine magic powers, why would be bother with the cheap illusions at all? Surely if he's got supernatural powers, he doesn't need to resort to sleight-of-hand or misdirection, ever.

One of his acts that stepped out for me: he goes up to a guy, asks him if he'd like to win some money. Blaine gives the guy money to buy three scratch offs. Then tells the guy to pick two to scratch. I don't quite remember his winnings, but they were far above the commonly won $2.00 to buy another scratch off and sometimes it's difficult to even win $2.00. It was cashed on the show. So what? All it shows is that you can't figure out how the trick was done. That's what good magic performers are all about. They perform tricks that seem to defy the laws of nature and common sense. But most magicians admit it's all tricks, and most of their audiences realise this. There was a Top 50 Magic Tricks on TV a while back with stuff from the likes of Penn & Teller and David Copperfield and other famous performers. I loved it because I kept scratching my head and thinking "How the hell did they do that?". Being able to come up with tricks that make you scratch your head is what they're all about.

How on earth you all can't find any substance in unlimiting your minds blows my mind.I'm not being closed minded because I don't think David Blaine has supernatural powers. It's just common sense. If most magicians can do tricks that seems to defy your logic, yet they admit there's nothing paranormal about it, and lots of David Blaine's tricks have been shown to be prosaic in their explanations, then why do you think that any of it is supernatural?


Duck!

[Schneibster]

For your last trick, you tried to convince us all that ultraviolet light doesn't cause cancer. What's next, you gonna gargle peanut butter? Some people are down right frightened to witness his magic. The average IQ is 100.

Is everything he does magic?, maybe, maybe not. Does he take magic shits?

How on earth you all can't find any substance in unlimiting your minds blows my mind.Why we don't fall all over ourselves believing your crackpot ideas fails completely to amaze me.
:rolleyes:

[MushMouth]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786712260/qid=1106279236/internetinfidels/

I've always been fascinated with the sociology of magic, and that is probably why I spent a good part of today reading the first half of this book. Through detailing the historical developments that led up to Houdini's 1918 performance in which he made an elephant dissapper and the subsequent failure of the audience to be impressed the author creates a context for the illusions that magicians perform and develop, and why they work.


I also find it interesting to note that some of our greatest skeptics and debunkers have been magicians, or are at least proficient in magic. They're almost invaluable in this regard, because they seem to be far more attuned to detecting deception than scientists are.

[Sven]

I think Gods made the Giza pyramid (the most amazing of the seven wonders) and stone circles with their minds.
Do you? Then perhaps you might join WILLOWTREE in his next formal debate (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=93010). He's one of those folks who you would have no problem with convincing that the sun does not cause cancer (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=110887). Good luck.
Edited to add: Oh, and that astrology works and that the moon influences driving habits (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=2072664#post2072664)

[kaleidescope]

If he's got genuine magic powers, why would be bother with the cheap illusions at all? Surely if he's got supernatural powers, he doesn't need to resort to sleight-of-hand or misdirection, ever.

So what? All it shows is that you can't figure out how the trick was done. That's what good magic performers are all about. They perform tricks that seem to defy the laws of nature and common sense. But most magicians admit it's all tricks, and most of their audiences realise this. There was a Top 50 Magic Tricks on TV a while back with stuff from the likes of Penn & Teller and David Copperfield and other famous performers. I loved it because I kept scratching my head and thinking "How the hell did they do that?". Being able to come up with tricks that make you scratch your head is what they're all about.

I'm not being closed minded because I don't think David Blaine has supernatural powers. It's just common sense. If most magicians can do tricks that seems to defy your logic, yet they admit there's nothing paranormal about it, and lots of David Blaine's tricks have been shown to be prosaic in their explanations, then why do you think that any of it is supernatural?


Duck!

Because i believe that supernatural does exist. is everyone who claims to be supernatural authentic?, probably not, but they are better off to think they are than not, this is a positive viewpoint and positivity can't hurt anyone. they have the door open to be supernatural, not closed. further, i believe ALL fiction, sci-fi too, is BASED on reality. i do not need to be supernatural to believe in the supernatural. will i be disappointed if i someday find i'm wrong, supernatural doesn't exist? no; big deal; open to the idea, not obsessed with it.
what are scientist's currently saying about the percentage of the brain we actually use. Time back, it was a whopping 10%, hopefully time has given us a slightly better percentage. Isn't anyone curious to know what the rest of the brain is capable of? perhaps the brain is actually capable of regulating and on command, the amount of adrenaline we can produce. maybe dynosaurs did help to construct the pyramid. i stand with the belief a pyramid is a house of energy. what does dynosaur mean?

[Undercurrent]

what are scientist's currently saying about the percentage of the brain we actually use. Time back, it was a whopping 10%, hopefully time has given us a slightly better percentage.

Obligatory snopes link. (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm)

The "10% of our brains" lie has kept many a charletan in business by hooking the gullible and unimaginative. "What could the 90% of our brains that we don't use do?". The open-minded answer "A lot of things including possibly nothing at all". The closed-minded answer "psychic powers and hollywood special effects". But as the claim is a big fat lie in the first place, the question is moot.

[kaleidescope]

For your last trick, you tried to convince us all that ultraviolet light doesn't cause cancer. What's next, you gonna gargle peanut butter? The average IQ is 100.

Does he take magic shits?

Why we don't fall all over ourselves believing your crackpot ideas fails completely to amaze me.
:rolleyes:

I do hope you're ready to compare Schneibster:

I've taken three iq tests, the results:
1- oct 2002; iq- 122. placing my intellect type as- visual mathematician.
2- may 2003; 91st percential; 96th percential in logical ability.
3- april 2004; super iq test, harder than average iq test; 113- original thinker, 6 out of 1000 people are original thinkers.

You're turn :Cheeky:

[Duck!]

Because i believe that supernatural does exist.But so what? You can still believe in the supernatural while acknowleding that professional magicians are just performance artists, and don't have magic powers.

is everyone who claims to be supernatural authentic?, probably not, but they are better off to think they are than not, this is a positive viewpoint and positivity can't hurt anyone.I'm not interested in positive viewpoints. I'm interersted in what's true. If I believed everything that couldn't hurt anyone or was positive or I thought it was harmless, then I'd have a head full of contradictory nonsense. This is why I became a skeptic, it seems to be a pretty good methodology for sorting out the truth from the bullshit. If I believed things just because I liked them, then I'd believe that my bank balance had a couple of extra zeroes at the end.

no; big deal; open to the idea, not obsessed with itI'm certainly open to the idea that some people may have psychic powers or can defy what we think are the laws of physics. But I believe that no-one has successfully demonstrated scientifically under controlled conditions anything to get worked up over. You on the other hand, have specifically stated that you believe David Blaine has magic powers. Your reason for this seems to be that you can't figure out how he does his tricks. As I've already said, the whole point behind a professional magician is that he does things that appear to defy logic or nature.

what are scientist's currently saying about the percentage of the brain we actually use. Time back, it was a whopping 10%, hopefully time has given us a slightly better percentage. That's an urban myth that most people believe simply because it's been repeated that often. Do a bit of Googling on the 10% brain myth.


Duck!

[Schneibster]

I do hope you're ready to compare Schneibster:

I've taken three iq tests, the results:
1- oct 2002; iq- 122. placing my intellect type as- visual mathematician.
2- may 2003; 91st percential; 96th percential in logical ability.
3- april 2004; super iq test, harder than average iq test; 113- original thinker, 6 out of 1000 people are original thinkers.

You're turn :Cheeky:I don't compare penis lengths either.

You have of course completely misunderstood my point: you said, "Some people are down right (sic) frightened to witness his magic." And I responded, "The average IQ is 100." The point is not what your IQ might be, it is what the IQ of the "some people" you refer to is likely to be. I can certainly see that you scored high on comprehension of written material.

I am irresistably reminded of the joke in which a hiker, an important politician, and the self-proclaimed smartest man in the world are trapped in an airplane that is headed for an inevitable crash. The smartest man in the world takes a parachute proclaiming that the world cannot do without him. The politician says to the hiker, "Well, I guess we'll have to draw straws." The hiker says, "Hey, no problem, man. The smartest man in the world just took my backpack."

[mdaiah]

i open the box to find a kiwi
As a NZer I'm sensing concern for the kiwi...when he cut around it he didn't hurt it did he? Everyone knows they are flightless so the poor thing can't do much to protect itself or evade this mad warlock.

[Queen of Swords]

After doing my Google research on Blaine, I am all the more convinced he is absolutely for real. He travels the globe wearing a t-shirt.

Just a T-shirt? I'm guess his magic act doesn't play to small children, then.

All you have to do is watch the faces of those he's in front of to realize he has no props to hide anything.

If he was wearing only a T-shirt, I would agree that he was hiding nothing.

Some people are down right frightened to witness his magic.

In other words, they're extremely gullible. Poor souls.

How on earth you all can't find any substance in unlimiting your minds blows my mind.

Apparently everything blows your mind - pyramids, stars, card tricks from half-naked guys, a skeptical viewpoint. What else is new?

[chapka]

Because i believe that supernatural does exist. is everyone who claims to be supernatural authentic?, probably not, but they are better off to think they are than not, this is a positive viewpoint and positivity can't hurt anyone.

Bullshit.

Sorry to be blunt, but it's well established that these sorts of claims do hurt people--in some cases, a lot.

Ask a child whose parents are Christian Scientists, who believe that the magic sky daddy will punish them if they give their child a drug transfusion to save his or her life if this "positive" belief in the supernatural "positively" won't hurt them.

Ask someone who chooses homeopathic medicine which has the "memory" of "natural healing herbs" in it over actual, tested medicine which might have helped them.

Ask the people who are killed by suicide bombers if their attackers' superstitions did them any harm.

Ask someone whose child or spouse was killed by a quack chiropractor performing a neck "manipulation", which the quack told them could cure things like deafness or cancer by adjusting their "qi".

Ask someone who got suckered into a cult by a "true believer" charismatic leader whether the wasted years of their life and the theft of their life's savings hurt them or not.

Ask the family of someone who, instead of staying at home, spending their last days with their family, and dying with dignity, spent six painful months and all of their family's savings in a Mexican clinic with a doctor who believed, despite all of the scientific evidence to the contrary, in the efficacy of laetrille.

Ask the gay child who got kicked out of their home and onto the streets because their parents' pastor told them to if their parents' beliefs hurt them or not.

All of these people have positive beliefs. And because of those positive beliefs, people get hurt. If you hold the idea that it doesn't matter what crazy thing you believe, as long as you believe something, there's nothing to distinguish you from Nazis, racists, suicide bombers, and a host of other very bad people.

[chapka]

I've taken three iq tests, the results:
1- oct 2002; iq- 122. placing my intellect type as- visual mathematician.
2- may 2003; 91st percential; 96th percential in logical ability.
3- april 2004; super iq test, harder than average iq test; 113- original thinker, 6 out of 1000 people are original thinkers.

Erm...these wouldn't be online IQ tests, would they? You realize that pretty much all online IQ tests give everyone and their monkey a super-high score so they'll agree to buy whatever they're trying to sell at the end, right?

Just as a test, I also took the "Super IQ" test (I assume you're talking about the one at Tickle, right?) Except instead of wasting time thinking about the questions, I just guessed the third option for everything. Surprise! Not only did I score a 94--only 19 points below your score which you got by actually trying--but it told me that I was an "information organizer" and that, based on my test result, only 6 out of 1,000 people have my particular combination of abilities. I then took it again, this time trying to answer the questions. This time it told me I was a "creative theorist," with a score of 141. Surprise, surprise--only 6 out of 1,000 people are "creative theorists." Does this mean I'm smarter than you are? No--it means I'm very good at standardized tests. Luckily, I'm not gulliable to think that they actually measure much of anything--especially when they're posted on the internet by random people who, based on the questions, aren't particularly good at test design.

This is what allows psychics and such to keep preying on people; the fact that most people are so impressed by statistics like "6 out of 1,000" or "113 IQ" that they think they actually mean something, even when they don't.

[kaleidescope]

Do you? Then perhaps you might join WILLOWTREE in his next formal debate (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=93010). He's one of those folks who you would have no problem with convincing that the sun does not cause cancer (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=110887). Good luck.
Edited to add: Oh, and that astrology works and that the moon influences driving habits (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=2072664#post2072664)

You're right, I lean to WTs side, unfortunately ya bunch of heathens sent him away, this is unfortunate. Theists do have better things to do with their time than be insulted. To me it is an extreme affliction to be an atheist.

[kaleidescope]

Erm...these wouldn't be online IQ tests, would they? You realize that pretty much all online IQ tests give everyone and their monkey a super-high score so they'll agree to buy whatever they're trying to sell at the end, right?

Just as a test, I also took the "Super IQ" test (I assume you're talking about the one at Tickle, right?) Except instead of wasting time thinking about the questions, I just guessed the third option for everything. Surprise! Not only did I score a 94--only 19 points below your score which you got by actually trying--but it told me that I was an "information organizer" and that, based on my test result, only 6 out of 1,000 people have my particular combination of abilities. I then took it again, this time trying to answer the questions. This time it told me I was a "creative theorist," with a score of 141. Surprise, surprise--only 6 out of 1,000 people are "creative theorists." Does this mean I'm smarter than you are? No--it means I'm very good at standardized tests. Luckily, I'm not gulliable to think that they actually measure much of anything--especially when they're posted on the internet by random people who, based on the questions, aren't particularly good at test design.

This is what allows psychics and such to keep preying on people; the fact that most people are so impressed by statistics like "6 out of 1,000" or "113 IQ" that they think they actually mean something, even when they don't.

Now, if all atheists will take this same test, let's see what happens. I wonder if we'll find a ton of creative theorists here.

[kaleidescope]

With his talent to give him a boost, there is really only one thing that got me to believe Blaine is for real: His mother's death.
Brave Prince Harry was making a very brave statement to go to a party in a Nazi uniform or such. Without physically seeing his brave mother in heaven right by his side, she can protect and guide her sons 200% better than she ever could in life. just as my mother who got all processes rolling while here, there she can protect and guide all the better. The worst thing that's ever happened to me is her death, nothing else comes close.
I stumbled across an episode of Psychic Detective. That is police departments calling in psychics to help with cases. The psychic, without prompting, definitely helped to solve the case.
Passing along a book I've been referred to: "The Creature from Jeckyll Island." Said to be a very good expose book.

[Dark Knight Bob]

Brave Prince Harry was making a very brave statement to go to a party in a Nazi uniform or such. Without physically seeing his brave mother in heaven right by his side,

That's very brave of you to say so. An wait. Is she in heaven or by his side? Which one is it? How do you know what he was doing by dressing up that way?

she can protect and guide her sons 200% better than she ever could in life.

How? And how do you know it's 200%? Wouldn't that mean then that when harry dies his children will have a 400% protection and their children 800% protection? AH EXPONENTIAL PROTECTION! In a few generations time we'll be bullet proof!

I stumbled across an episode of Psychic Detective. That is police departments calling in psychics to help with cases. The psychic, without prompting, definitely helped to solve the case.

Why, because a tv show said so?

To me it is an extreme affliction to be an atheist.

Let's hope they never find a cure.

Now, if all atheists will take this same test, let's see what happens. I wonder if we'll find a ton of creative theorists here.

Completely missing the point he made, that those tests are bunk tests to begin with and are most likely there to just get you to pay them for the bigger tests. It wouldn't matter if it did come out as creative theorists for all athiests. It isn't a proper IQ test to start off with.

[Duck!]

With his talent to give him a boost, there is really only one thing that got me to believe Blaine is for real: His mother's death.
You're going to have to explain that. You believe he's got supernatural gifts because his mother's dead?

Brave Prince Harry was making a very brave statement to go to a party in a Nazi uniform or such. Without physically seeing his brave mother in heaven right by his side, she can protect and guide her sons 200% better than she ever could in life. just as my mother who got all processes rolling while here, there she can protect and guide all the better. The worst thing that's ever happened to me is her death, nothing else comes close.What's Prince Harry going to a party dressed as Nazi got to do with anything? Wearing a Nazi outfit it hardly evidence of the supernatural and I don't know what it's got to do with David Blaine's supposed abilities. That paragraph seems to be a string of non-sequiturs. I'm sorry to hear about your mother, but I don't see how you got from David Blaine's magic to his mother's death to Prince Harry in a Nazi outfit to his mother to your mother. Maybe you can explain it better.


Duck!

[Duck!]

Now, if all atheists will take this same test, let's see what happens. I wonder if we'll find a ton of creative theorists here.I'd bet we'd all end up IQs with anything from 120 - 180. One online test I took told me my IQ was 155! Now I'd like to think I'm smart but I sure as hell don't have a 155 IQ.

I wouldn't trust a free online IQ test as far as I could throw it. I'm not sure how you'd go about throwing an online test though.


Duck!

[Loren Pechtel]

I stumbled across an episode of Psychic Detective. That is police departments calling in psychics to help with cases. The psychic, without prompting, definitely helped to solve the case.

That is, they're helpful in the mind of the psychics. The police don't consider them helpful.

[Jobar]

I'm thinking we should try to come up with a test to measure gullibility quotient, GQ.

Hmmmm. Now how should we calibrate it, do you think...?

:D

[Queen of Swords]

You're right, I lean to WTs side, unfortunately ya bunch of heathens sent him away, this is unfortunate.

You mean that unfortunately it's unfortunate? How unfortunate.

Theists do have better things to do with their time than be insulted.

But with some theists, it might be the most attention they've had in years. That's why they stick around, IMO.

To me it is an extreme affliction to be an atheist.

To me it is an extreme affliction to be hyper-gullible. At least I'm not likely to be fleeced by anyone out there with a T-shirt.

[Schneibster]

I hate to pop your bubble k, but here's how it stacks up:

http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/iqstats.html

There's a whole list of references there that say essentially the same thing: highly intelligent people aren't religious, and highly religious people aren't intelligent. You can find exceptions to every rule, but the sheer number of studies that show the same thing without any dissenting study (feel free to cite some) removes this from the realm of opinion and places it in the realm of fact.

[Dean Anderson]

You're right, I lean to WTs side, unfortunately ya bunch of heathens sent him away, this is unfortunate.

Actually, that's not what happened at all.

He breezed in here making some fairly unusual claims. I offered to formally debate him about these claims so that they could be examined in a setting where there would not be people chipping in and making sarcastic comments.

He took up my offer of a debate (and since you say that you lean towards his side, I assume that you read the resulting debate when Sven linked to it).

Read the debate again.

Who do you think presented the stronger case? Why do you think this?

Look at the language used by both parties. Who was the one being insulting and who was the one being civil?

The description of events you used implies that WT was insulted and persecuted and "sent away from" the board. In reality, he was the one doing the insulting, and he left of his own accord when we pointed out that the evidence that his claims were based on was not accurate.

He has not been banned - and is free to come back and present his claims and any new evidence that he has for them whenever he likes. But he (and you) should not expect us to believe any claims without evidence, and should not expect us to accept evidence on face value without investigating and examining it.

Theists do have better things to do with their time than be insulted. To me it is an extreme affliction to be an atheist.

Yes. From these two sentences it would appear that insulting atheists by calling their beliefs "an extreme affliction" is one of these "better things"...

It is quite ironic that you can come in here and make a statement like that whilst in the very same breath condemn us for allegedly engaging in the very behaviour that you are actively engaging in.

[chapka]

I'm thinking we should try to come up with a test to measure gullibility quotient, GQ.

Done!

Presenting...the Skeptic or Believer? quiz. (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=2123717#post2123717)

Comments and results in the linked thread, please, to keep this one more or less on topic.

[Kent]

I think Gods made the Giza pyramid (the most amazing of the seven wonders) and stone circles with their minds. Perhaps their physical contribution was placing the adhesive, the material of which can't be found on earth. I cannot imagine being able to scaffold a triangle. They must have levitated to the higher places. Perhaps right now, Gods don't trust us with higher powers, rightfully so. Unlimit your thoughts, unlimit yourself.

Erik!!?...Erik von däniken, Is that you??

[kaleidescope]

I hate to pop your bubble k, but here's how it stacks up:

http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/iqstats.html

There's a whole list of references there that say essentially the same thing: highly intelligent people aren't religious, and highly religious people aren't intelligent. You can find exceptions to every rule, but the sheer number of studies that show the same thing without any dissenting study (feel free to cite some) removes this from the realm of opinion and places it in the realm of fact.

Let me let you in on a secret. Belief in God is not necessarily belief in religion. I do not believe in religion.
Chopka, I tried taking your test, I got an error page.
My time has come, I am tired of running in circles here. It seems atheists are best are turning words around, the circle thing again.
If I was offered any amount of money in the world to adopt the atheist mindset; no way, no how, not ever would I accept.
Have a good a life y'all.

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Did he let YOU cut open a fresh Kiwi and find your bill? Not a chance. He had to do it himself, so he could deftly insert the bill inside the Kiwi as he opened it. Ask him to do the trick again, except this time give you the Kiwi to inspect and open on your own. It won't happen, because he can't do it. It's sleight of hand...just incredible, mind-blowing sleight of hand.

-B

[Duck!]

My time has come, I am tired of running in circles here. It seems atheists are best are turning words around, the circle thing again. It might be easier for us all if you stuck to a topic and explained your position clearly. You keep drifting from one topic to another, like from David Blaine to Prince Harry or the pyramids without taking the time to explain exactly what it is you believe and why exactly you believe it. I'd be interested in discussing David Blaine and his magic if you'd stick to the topic.

If I was offered any amount of money in the world to adopt the atheist mindset; no way, no how, not ever would I accept.What a strange comment. Are you one of those people who think atheists are miserable and close-minded and don't see real beauty in the world? There's all sorts of wonderful, genuine truths and beauties out there to discover - just look at the photos take from the surface of Titan or some of the deep space Hubble photos! That shit blows my mind! That's more awesome than pyramids or David Blaine's parlour tricks. And you don't need to believe in God or the supernatural to truly appreciate it.

Have a good a life y'all.I'll try, but being an atheist and all, it's difficult... ;)


Duck!

[Jobar]

Kaleidescope, I hope you're still about- I have something to say to you, in all seriousness. Something I read today brought you instantly to my mind- from here (http://skepdic.com/truebeliever.html):

A study done by psychologists Barry Singer and Victor Benassi at California State University at Long Beach illustrates the will to believe in psychic powers in the face of contrary evidence. They brought in a performing magician, Craig Reynolds, to do some tricks for four introductory psychology classes. Two of the classes were not told that he was a magician who would perform some amateur magic tricks. They were told that he was a graduate student who claimed to have psychic powers. In those classes, the psychology instructor explicitly stated that he didn't believe that the graduate student or anyone else has psychic abilities. In the other two classes the students were told that the magician was a magician. Singer and Benassi reported that about two-thirds of the students in both groups believed Craig was psychic. The researchers were surprised to find no significant difference between the "magic" and "psychic" classes. They then made the same presentation to two more classes who were explicitly told that Craig had no psychic abilities and that he was going to do some tricks for them whereby he pretends to read minds and demonstrate psychic powers. Nevertheless, more than half the students believed Craig was psychic after seeing his act.

Singer and Benassi then asked the students whether they thought magicians could do exactly what Craig did. Most of the students agreed that magicians could. Then they asked the students if they would like to change their estimate of Craig's psychic abilities in light of the negative data they themselves had provided. A few did, reducing the percentage of students believing in Craig's psychic powers to 55 percent. Then the students were asked to estimate how many so-called psychics were really fakes using magician's tricks. The consensus was that most "psychics" are frauds. The students were again asked if they wished to change their estimate of Craig's psychic powers. Again, a few did, but the percentage believing in Craig's psychic powers was still a hefty 52 percent. [Benassi and Singer; Hofstadter]

For many people, the will to believe at times overrides the ability to think critically about the evidence for and against a belief.

You should examine your own insistence to believe in the light of that.

One last thing, which I saw quoted on a different board just today, that you should take to heart- this lyric from Stevie Wonder:

When you believe in things that you don't understand
Then you suffer!
Superstition ain't the way.

[Godric Gryffindor]

One of his acts that stepped out for me: he goes up to a guy, asks him if he'd like to win some money. Blaine gives the guy money to buy three scratch offs. Then tells the guy to pick two to scratch. I don't quite remember his winnings, but they were far above the commonly won $2.00 to buy another scratch off and sometimes it's difficult to even win $2.00. It was cashed on the show.

As Jay Leno put it- how come you never see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"?

[Godric Gryffindor]

One of his acts that stepped out for me: he goes up to a guy, asks him if he'd like to win some money. Blaine gives the guy money to buy three scratch offs. Then tells the guy to pick two to scratch. I don't quite remember his winnings, but they were far above the commonly won $2.00 to buy another scratch off and sometimes it's difficult to even win $2.00. It was cashed on the show.
Let me try:


Blaine's team buys $50,000 worth of scratchers and scratches them all off. He finds a few worth some money (more than the typical $2)
Blaine (or, of course, someone from his team) re-covers the winning scratchers with a metallic layer similar to the one that was scratched off, essentially making the tickets seem new.
Either one of two things happen:

The guy buys 3 tickets and Blaine switches them for the fake ones in a clever sleight-of-hand move, or
The street vendor is, in fact, a plant (i.e. a paid actor), and sells Blaine's altered tickets to the guy.



Done.

[JDB-44]

Can anyone explain this one? I saw a terrific magician working the tables at a dinner party. He had me say the name of a card--I randomly chose the two of hearts--and then he pulled out a "flip book". He flipped it, and the animation was of a hand pulling a two of hearts out of a hat!

Jared

[Loren Pechtel]

Can anyone explain this one? I saw a terrific magician working the tables at a dinner party. He had me say the name of a card--I randomly chose the two of hearts--and then he pulled out a "flip book". He flipped it, and the animation was of a hand pulling a two of hearts out of a hat!

Jared

You *THINK* you randomly chose the 2 of hearts.

[Queen of Swords]

Let me let you in on a secret. Belief in God is not necessarily belief in religion. I do not believe in religion.

You believe in pyramids, magic, astrology and guys wearing T-shirts but not religion? How could you close your mind to religion? How could you have such a limited viewpoint? What a terrible affliction.

My time has come

This reminds me of the Wise and Benevolent Alien giving his last farewell speech to humanity before he's beamed up into the mothership.

I am tired of running in circles here.

Knowing you, they were probably crop circles.

If I was offered any amount of money in the world to adopt the atheist mindset; no way, no how, not ever would I accept.

That comes as a relief to me. You see, I would not want you to be an atheist either. Atheists should, IMO, be questioning, skeptical, rational people, not people who will happily lap up any superstitions they come across. Such a person becoming an atheist would only make my side look bad. So please, remain how you are no matter how much money you are offered (not that anyone would offer you money, of course, but you know what I mean).

Have a good a life y'all.

I already do, thanks.

[Sven]

You're right, I lean to WTs side, unfortunately ya bunch of heathens sent him away, this is unfortunate.
We in no way "sent him away". He chose to leave himself, because he could convince nobody with his crap and was only laughed at.
Hopefully you will not follow his lead. Some people do actually learn something here.

Theists do have better things to do with their time than be insulted.

Insulted? If someone spews bullshit and this is pointed out, that's not insult, but statement of fact. It's his problem that he failed to follow any logic.

To me it is an extreme affliction to be an atheist.
Then stay a theist, no problem. As long as you don't try to convert anyone.

Belief in God is not necessarily belief in religion. I do not believe in religion.
:huh:
One does not believe in religion. Believing in god (combined with some rituals) is religion.

My time has come, I am tired of running in circles here.
Oh, unfortunately you indeed followed WT lead. :down:

It seems atheists are best are turning words around, the circle thing again.
Hmm, is it possible that you give an example for this empty accusation?

If I was offered any amount of money in the world to adopt the atheist mindset; no way, no how, not ever would I accept.
And hopefully so. Claiming to have a certain worldview without actually having it based on a bribe would be very dishonest.
But perhaps you will actually use your high IQ to think at some time and come to the conclusion that atheism is the only rational worldview yourself.

[Undercurrent]

Oh, unfortunately you indeed followed WT lead. :down:

If that is actually true, so long kal. Thanks for the memories and see you in a week.

[mdaiah]

I've atually made quite a few witty and informative comments during this little thread; however if you don't believe then you won't see them because I used a magic keyboard. :devil3:

[Chamaeleon]

...
This looked suspiciously like a very small Nutwatch post. ;) Not working your way up to a regular one, are you?

[Mageth]

Can anyone explain this one? I saw a terrific magician working the tables at a dinner party. He had me say the name of a card--I randomly chose the two of hearts--and then he pulled out a "flip book". He flipped it, and the animation was of a hand pulling a two of hearts out of a hat!

Jared

Yeah, and if you'd said the ace of spades, he'd have pulled out a flip book that showed a hand pulling the ace of spades out of a hat (probably the same book). His finger would be on a slightly different position on the edge of the book, no doubt.

[Queen of Swords]

Yeah, and if you'd said the ace of spades, he'd have pulled out a flip book that showed a hand pulling the ace of spades out of a hat (probably the same book). His finger would be on a slightly different position on the edge of the book, no doubt.

Yes, I think that's how it works. I have a book of magic tricks, and several different card strategies are described in it.

That reminds me of the time I was invited to my dad's pastor's house for christmas, and the pastor said he and his wife would play a mind-reading game. She went out of the room, while he picked up a broomstick handle.

"Are you going to fly on that?" I asked.

"No," he said a little severely. "I am going to draw an abstract shape on the ground, and it will tell my wife whatever word you people choose while she's out of the room. It has to be a three-letter word, though, because otherwise it'll take too long to draw the abstract shapes."

They chose "hat". As the wife came back in, the pastor began to draw several long parallel lines. "How are you?" he said to his wife, eyes fixed on the shapes. He did an elaborate squiggle that nearly touched her toes. "Annie, could you get your feet out of the way, please?" He finished by tapping the tip of the broomstick several times, as if making dots. "That's all."

"Hat," she said. "That was ea--"

"You take the initial letters of every sentence he speaks," I said. "The drawing is just a way to distract everyone's attention." The pastor looked dumbfounded, then tried to protest that that wasn't the case. "All right, here's another three-letter word for you, then," I said. "Fox."

"Could you pick one that didn't have an X in it?" he asked.

"You mean her mind can't read the letter X?"

I don't think I was a big hit at that party.

[trunks2k]

Blaine is actually extremely unpopular with other performing magicians. He uses shills and camera tricks rather than skill and practice.

Basically he cheats. (Doing a card trick with someone who's in on it instead of practicing being able to palm the card he wants and shuffle the deck properly, for example.)

Yeah, I don't like Blaine because of this reason. I saw a documentary on how "street magicians" (read: david blaine) really do their tricks. The amount of tricks that involved selective editing of video footage and working with people who are in on the trick shocked me.

The worst one is his "levitation" trick. The trick starts off as a valid illusion; standing at a certain angle from the audience and lifting your body off the ground with your foot a few inches gives the appearance that you are floating a few inches off the ground. Now here's where things go from being acceptable illusions to, well, a scam. The reaction of the audience members are filmed. Then the audience leaves and the rest of the trick is performed. Blaine is hooked up to a crane and lifted several feet in the air. This is filmed from an over the shoulder shot of a crew member wearing similar clothing as the original audience member. The pieces of footage from the real audience member and the over the shoulder shot of the fake audience member are combined to give the illusion that the audience member saw the second levitation.

[Queen of Swords]

This looked suspiciously like a very small Nutwatch post. ;) Not working your way up to a regular one, are you?

No, but it's hard to resist when I see such promising material out there. Good to see that someone still remembers the Nutwatches, by the way. :)

[enrious]

No, but it's hard to resist when I see such promising material out there. Good to see that someone still remembers the Nutwatches, by the way. :)

As humble as ever, Queen, because you surely meant to say "worships" in place of "remembers".

:notworthy

[whichphilosophy]

Let me try:


Blaine's team buys $50,000 worth of scratchers and scratches them all off. He finds a few worth some money (more than the typical $2)
Blaine (or, of course, someone from his team) re-covers the winning scratchers with a metallic layer similar to the one that was scratched off, essentially making the tickets seem new.
Either one of two things happen:

The guy buys 3 tickets and Blaine switches them for the fake ones in a clever sleight-of-hand move, or
The street vendor is, in fact, a plant (i.e. a paid actor), and sells Blaine's altered tickets to the guy.



Done.
David Blaine describes himself as an illusionist so the above just like magic tricks is quite possible.

Still a lot of the stuff is entertaining. He does do some interesting stunts.
There is an illusion where he takes someones watch (shown later how he does it in slow motion) and appears to magically place it through a shop window next to the person, or a marked card appearing inside a policeman's shoe.

Plus he has the personality to go with it.

[mdaiah]

Still a lot of the stuff is entertaining
Gosh, isn't this the point? Being entertained by conjuring and magic require at least as much suspension of disbelief as does watching a movie.

[Jobar]

Gosh, isn't this the point? Being entertained by conjuring and magic require at least as much suspension of disbelief as does watching a movie.

Very true. The problem is that some people's disbelief, instead of just being suspended, flies off into la-la land. :D

[walt6]

In fairness to David Blaine, he doesn't claim to have supernatural powers.

Only Kaleidoscope thinks he does. And it doesn't appear that any amount of reasoning with him is going to change his mind.

You don't see to many successful magicians around, so Blaine is making a name for himself and making good money at it. There is nothing wrong with that.

Contrast that with Uri Geller!

[DaMan121]

Yes, I think that's how it works. I have a book of magic tricks, and several different card strategies are described in it.

That reminds me of the time I was invited to my dad's pastor's house for christmas, and the pastor said he and his wife would play a mind-reading game. She went out of the room, while he picked up a broomstick handle.

"Are you going to fly on that?" I asked.

"No," he said a little severely. "I am going to draw an abstract shape on the ground, and it will tell my wife whatever word you people choose while she's out of the room. It has to be a three-letter word, though, because otherwise it'll take too long to draw the abstract shapes."

They chose "hat". As the wife came back in, the pastor began to draw several long parallel lines. "How are you?" he said to his wife, eyes fixed on the shapes. He did an elaborate squiggle that nearly touched her toes. "Annie, could you get your feet out of the way, please?" He finished by tapping the tip of the broomstick several times, as if making dots. "That's all."

"Hat," she said. "That was ea--"

"You take the initial letters of every sentence he speaks," I said. "The drawing is just a way to distract everyone's attention." The pastor looked dumbfounded, then tried to protest that that wasn't the case. "All right, here's another three-letter word for you, then," I said. "Fox."

"Could you pick one that didn't have an X in it?" he asked.

"You mean her mind can't read the letter X?"

I don't think I was a big hit at that party.


:rolling: "Xylophones are interesting instruments arent they Annie?"