Aggh, I need to grow a pair! Your advice please?

[JohNeo]

Hi fellow infidels, pardon the long post, but I really need some help.

Many of you might have noticed in my posts that I still attend church on occasion, just because it is a part of my social life that I have not yet been ready to let go of. I have let most of my close friends in the church know that I am atheist, and they seem to be cool with it. Also, I have always liked the pipe organ, the stained glass and the choral music.

But now I think the reason I am still going to church is because I lack the balls to tell some of the people that I'm done with it. There are few people I can talk to who don't have a dog in the fight.

I have been an usher in the church and have sung in Men's Choir for the past 4 years, and I like the "high service" where we sing in plainsong chant, kind of like Gregorian chants.

But in the last 9 months my faith completely evaporated, and quite frankly I have experienced more joy in that time than in the 4 years or so that I was heavily involved with the church. I already went through the grieving process and the trauma of faith lost, and now I feel pretty good and it does not bother me to be in a church.

The problem is, people got so used to seeing me there every week, and they have grown to count on me to be there. And for crying out loud, I have been there every 4 or 5 weeks for usher duty, and I have been singing in the men's choir every other Sunday through most of the time. But people expect more from me, and the Rector (head priest) is wondering where I am. He's sending out his search party to find out why I'm not there every Sunday. The father of one of my best friends grilled me yesterday in church, telling me I was not living up to my commitment. :confused: :mad: The Rector himself, Fr. Smith, grabbed my arm and asked me if everything is okay. They don't seem satisfied when I tell them everything is fine. Really, everything is going well, but I just have not seen any need to tell them I'm atheist now, and damn proud of it.

I have been thinking of just phasing out the church altogether, but unfortunately I set a precedent when I used to go every Sunday and I was heavily involved. I am now starting to think that quitting cold turkey is going to be the only way that I can leave and keep my sanity. Phasing out will probably only make them even more concerned and inquisitive, and many of the people I am talking about don't seem to understand that I don't want to discuss what I have gone through. Trouble is, some of these people I am referring to are people I see outside the church, including my friend's father.

I really don't want to burn bridges either...otherwise I would have walked out a long time ago.

Here is what I'm thinking about doing: I would like to write a letter to the people I need to tell, rather than telling them face-to-face. I know that telling them up front would not be a simple 3-minute exit interview...it could get ugly, and I don't want that. And I know that they will argue till either they win or I walk out. So I would rather tell them that I don't have any ill will toward anyone, and that I have tried to keep coming back to remain part of the community, but it's bringing me too much pain and confusion, and it makes it impossible to fully recover from my loss of God when people keep trying to get me back in the flock. If they can agree to lay off me, fine. If they can't accept that and feel it's necessary to keep asking me if I have returned to Jesus, etc. then I will never be seen in the building again.

Does this sound like a viable solution? Can I get a little encouragement, or suggestions for things to write in the letter, or possible alternatives to just quitting outright? Your suggestions are valued. :)

JohNeo

[Alter]

I'd say phase out. Find a good fake explanation, like additional job duties or family commitments. Once you're low on attendance for a few months, they'll forget.

Or, you could tell them you joined a different church, people do that all the time. Make one up, you could even "join" for a month or two, then bail on the new one.

Confronting people will get you grief and annoyance. But, OTOH, it will be a clean break, if you're ready to deal with all the shot it involves.

Me, I'm more of a stealth guy.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Not to touch too heavily on the irony that if they really were your "community," then you should be free to stand up and announce your atheism, but that you still wish to see everyone, because you enjoy the comraderie, I think cults are like bandaids; best if you rip it off in one pull and be done with it.

If you write a letter, then you run the risk of you becoming a sort of "anti-martyr" (i.e., they may indirectly demonize you and/or use you as a rallying point to "pray around" and how you're indicative of the decay of modern civilization and all that nonsense). You would be singled out as a "fallen" member; a lost soul. That, of course, will bleed into social interactions in subtle ways that will alienate and ostracize. Perhaps not immediately, but ultimately. It's not really their fault, either, since cults must demonize those who deprogram themselves or else your example could lead to metaphorical martyrdom and plant the seeds even further in those other members still in the closet. After all, if a steady rock like yourself can stray, what hope do the others have (and so on).

Again, not to put too fine a point on it, I'd just leave it a mystery. Cults love mystery and cult members are even a bit terrified of it, so by saying nothing and leaving a deliberate question mark, you'll probably serve your community of fence-sitters even more by forcing them to try to come up with reasons why you left. That way, they may find their own reasons more clearly and act on them in the same way.

If anyone asks, just say, "It served its purpose for me and now I just need to move on." Then if they want to dig deeper, they are the ones learning instead of hunting, if you know what I mean, and you can continue seeing all the people you enjoyed being with in church without any of them pointing definite fingers. As I mentioned, they thrive on mystery so...let them.

My .02

[fried beef sandwich]

I wouldn't do the letter... it may backfire more than you expect, and things said in writing are harder to take back.

[Kosmo]

First of all you need to be honest with yourself, do you get enough joy from the social interaction to offset the fact that this is a church. If so, then just keep going. The thing is, although there is nothing wrong with phasing yourself out, there will be consequences of leaving this bastion of social comeraderie and, from what it sounds like, your friends. Not that you'll be leaving your friends, but you'll be making a statement that may take time for them to understand. Just be prepared for that.

I think that one of the reasons people can cling to the absurd practice of religious fundamentalism is that questioning it might impact their social standing, something that is often more important than many will care to admit. My father although never overbearing (in a religious sense, anyway) has always been a churchgoer. Despite his attendance, I've questioned his motivations (at least since the time when I started questioning my own.) I've come to the conclusion that his biggest motivation for attending is for maintaing (and finding) social contacts. I don't talk about god with him, but at my best guess his belief in god is cursory.
This ramble does have a point: consider how important the social interaction is to you, and consider whether the change could provide a satisfactory alternative. I don't buy the 'people count on you being there' bit, think of yourself, even if everyone else is happy, life sucks if you're not.

[PoodleLovinPessimist]

Any time you leave a community, that community will demonize you to some degree to reinforce their own bonding. This is true of almost every community, secular or religious. If you leave a community, nothing you can say will ameliorate that demonization; everything you say (to mix a metaphor) can and will be used against you.

I think you have two options: Be fully engaged with the community and keep your atheism to yourself, or just walk away without explanation. If you feel the need to offer any explanation, just say, "I don't think it's right for me any more." Anything else will just either invite argument or be used to further demonize you. Which, if you're leaving a community shouldn't matter; I know, however, from personal experience that it still hurts. It's better to leave them guessing.

[JohNeo]

From OP

<snip>Here is what I'm thinking about doing: I would like to write a letter to the people I need to tell, rather than telling them face-to-face. I know that telling them up front would not be a simple 3-minute exit interview...it could get ugly, and I don't want that. And I know that they will argue till either they win or I walk out. So I would rather tell them that I don't have any ill will toward anyone, and that I have tried to keep coming back to remain part of the community, but it's bringing me too much pain and confusion, and it makes it impossible to fully recover from my loss of God when people keep trying to get me back in the flock. If they can agree to lay off me, fine. If they can't accept that and feel it's necessary to keep asking me if I have returned to Jesus, etc. then I will never be seen in the building again.
<snip>
JohNeo

I really would not word the letter as strongly as I did in my OP. I would put it more diplomatically, and make it sound less like an ultimatum, but "lay off or f--- off" is basically the intent, put bluntly. "I appreciate your concern, but it is a private matter that I don't wish to discuss, and I still want to feel welcome here" is a gentler approach I would probably go with.

Does this change anyone's answer?

[fried beef sandwich]

well, it would definitely arouse suspicions still... if your aim is to get them off your back, then it might not have the desired effect.

One possible sneaky plan is, to say you're interested in checking out other churches, and keep up that story for a few months... that's always a good segue into cutting off ties with an old church, since most hardcore church ppl seldom socialize outside their circle of local church friends. They tend to be a very insular bunch.

The advantage of this approach is that now you have an excuse to not see ppl on sunday, but you can then try to get together with your friends on any other day.

This, I feel, is the true test of friendship among the hardcore church people. I found that of the many church friends I had, once I left, most of them didn't give a shit once I moved away, started going to other churches, or stopped going altogether. There are a handful, however, that I still keep in touch with and we socialize, hang out, andgo drinking on weekdays and weekends. Those friends were worth keeping.

[HaysooChreesto!]

I think the letter is a fine idea. There's no sense in opening up to people about the same thing over and over again. It's not practical but more importantly it would be emotionally taxing.

Write the most tactful letter that you can explaining honestly and directly your reasons for leaving the church. That's really all you can do unless you want to go with my method which is to simply stop showing up and don't return phone calls. I wouldn't suggest it though.

There's no one right way that will please everyone. And since you're the only one who's intimately familiar with your situation you have to do what you think will work the best. Write the letter and send it out. After that you just have to handle it the best you can. Good luck.

[socratoad]

I was definitely going to say forget the letter until I read Lammas' post. Upon reflection I think that may be the best course of action. From what I know of you I'm quite sure that you won't make it confrontational. Either way there will be fallout. The bonus is you will soon find out who actually gives a damn about you and those just following a formulaic code for deciding whom they wish to deem as friends or suitable family members..

[pairadocs]

Just one point to think about: Letters can be passed around. Sure, a conversation can always be repeated to a third party, but with a letter, there it is, exactly what you said, for anyone to see -- whether they're someone you'd give that level of candidness to on their own account or not.

And you may not think the people involved would stoop to passing a letter around, but you never know. From personal experience, you never know :angry:

[JohNeo]

Thank you all for your input thus far. More input is still welcome. I will probably start my letter and refine it through the week before I send it off. Anyone who knows my writing style can tell you that I write, re-think and re-write. Just look at how often I edit my posts. :p

A couple of other events have taken place in the past week which I did not bring up in the OP. First, one of my fellow parishioners, a very conservative Afrikaaner who is the organ scholar, sent me an e-mail asking if I could be a welcoming minister. No thank you. :rolleyes: He knows damn well about my lack of faith.

Also, my friend Michal, who was a prayer partner for a time and a very very great guy, died on Thursday. He fought colorectal and liver cancer for the past 18 months before losing the battle. That has jacked with my emotions anyway, but tomorrow is the funeral at the church. There is no way around seeing some of the more evangelicals I knew through him and his wife. Part of me knows that people won't all be thinking of ME tomorrow, but it still will be difficult.

Anyway, I like the point you made, Lamma. Ignoring people and/or failing to return phone calls is something that seems less palatable to me than writing the letter. If the Rector decides that he wants to use the Holy Spirit by telling everyone to keep badgering me, then he will be seeing my tail lights. But I will certainly write the letter in a very civilized tone and urge the recipients (the very few there will be) to exercise confidentiality.

At the moment, I am going to try the "cake and eat it too" approach first--I show up when I feel it's right, and they leave me alone. Failing that, I will find another church. ;)

Peace,

JohNeo

[JohNeo]

Just one point to think about: Letters can be passed around. Sure, a conversation can always be repeated to a third party, but with a letter, there it is, exactly what you said, for anyone to see -- whether they're someone you'd give that level of candidness to on their own account or not.

And you may not think the people involved would stoop to passing a letter around, but you never know. From personal experience, you never know :angry:

Good points made. If the letter gets passed around, then the message will be loud and clear for me to never enter the church again.

BTW, do you have a personal experience story to share?

Thanks,

JohNeo

[openeyes]

The letter writing approach worked well for me, but I just wrote it to all my siblings and siblings-in-law (7 couples) and my parents. I was way beyond membership in any church group, so the situation was different obviously.

Letters can get passed around, but so what? All the better, especially if you write a thoughtful letter that you're proud of. I think it'll make for a cleaner interaction with the people of your church, though I've finally learned that one has to accept a lot of loose ends and ambiguity in ended relationships in life.

[jmem]

I went from being heavily involved in my church to just not interested in a very short period of time. The members were like my extended family, my parents and grandparents went there before I was born.

I managed to back out so slowly that they barely noticed, but it sounds like your church community is a little more...assertive than mine was?

Do you have any interest in a UU type of church? I found that a nice side effect to joining a UU church was that those few who did pester me were a lot more capable of respecting my membership in another church than they were of respecting my desire to just not come to their church ;)

it's bringing me too much pain and confusion
JohNeo

If you decide that the letter is necessary, I'd just be careful not to say anything like this. Do not indicate that you are confused or unsure, they will see it as hope that they can still save your poor lost soul.

[JohNeo]

I went from being heavily involved in my church to just not interested in a very short period of time. The members were like my extended family, my parents and grandparents went there before I was born.

I managed to back out so slowly that they barely noticed, but it sounds like your church community is a little more...assertive than mine was?

Do you have any interest in a UU type of church? I found that a nice side effect to joining a UU church was that those few who did pester me were a lot more capable of respecting my membership in another church than they were of respecting my desire to just not come to their church ;)



If you decide that the letter is necessary, I'd just be careful not to say anything like this. Do not indicate that you are confused or unsure, they will see it as hope that they can still save your poor lost soul.

Part of the problem is that one close friend of mine would notice if I missed just one Sunday, so pretty much as soon as I started falling away, it snowballed and it was certainly noticeable. Within a month, people were wondering what happened to me.

As for the UU church, I have attended the Dallas Unitarian church in University Park a couple of times--it's probably about a mile from where I live, so it is convenient if nothing else. I have considered attending there more just to hear philosophical musings. The people I am speaking of consider the UU to be heretical, but if they can't be satisfied that I am interested in enriching my life and my character, then I should not be worried about what they think of me.

Thanks again everyone for your ideas. The drafting of the letter has begun.

JohNeo

[Ebonmuse]

If you write a letter, then you run the risk of you becoming a sort of "anti-martyr" (i.e., they may indirectly demonize you and/or use you as a rallying point to "pray around" and how you're indicative of the decay of modern civilization and all that nonsense).

Again, not to put too fine a point on it, I'd just leave it a mystery. Cults love mystery and cult members are even a bit terrified of it, so by saying nothing and leaving a deliberate question mark, you'll probably serve your community of fence-sitters even more by forcing them to try to come up with reasons why you left. That way, they may find their own reasons more clearly and act on them in the same way.

This is a very interesting perspective, but I see one potential problem with it: if JohNeo doesn't say why he left, the Christians in his church may think it was because he was ashamed to say, and will demonize him even more by coming up with all kinds of personal reasons about dark secrets and hidden sins he just didn't want to confess, etc.

I agree it's pointless to try to lay out the entire case for disbelief in a single letter, or provide lengthy arguments in favor of atheism. That would only provoke endless debates he probably doesn't want to enter into. But I don't think there's anything wrong with providing his real reasons in the letter as long as it's kept short and sweet. Something like, "I no longer attend church because I no longer find Christianity intellectually convincing. If you are interested in knowing more, please contact me, but be aware that this is not an invitation to attempt to reconvert me. I have made my decision and ask that you respect it."

And JohNeo, I think you're doing the right thing, both by getting out of there in the first place and doing it this way. (Not to be judgmental, but this place sounds scary. From what you've described these people's behavior towards you seems very much like love bombing (http://www.watchman.org/cults/lovebomb.htm) to me - that's a Christian site, but succinctly expresses the idea). Gradually tailing off attendance would only provoke people's curiosity and lead them to bother you all the more in an attempt to bring you back. Making a clean break seems like the best option to me, and doing it via a letter lets you avoid messy face-to-face confrontations.

[Stacey Melissa]

Sounds like you've made up your mind to write a letter. I would just drop them cold turkey, but that's just me. A letter sounds as good as anything, I suppose.

Make the tone of the letter very positive-sounding. Let them know that you're happy with where you're going, but try to do it without explicitly saying so.

[Sarpedon]

I became a doubter when I was teaching sunday school. I had been doing it for three years, and everyone expected me to keep doing it. However, when the next year rolled around, I just told the church secretary not to keep scheduling me. It was as easy as that. Just inform the head usher or vestry member that you want to reduce your commitment, give him or her plenty of notice, like quitting a job. Then once you are just another member of the herd, you can fade away as much as you like.

[Capn_Danger]

[snip snip]

Does this sound like a viable solution? Can I get a little encouragement, or suggestions for things to write in the letter, or possible alternatives to just quitting outright? Your suggestions are valued. :)

JohNeo

Y'know, your situation sounds a lot like mine. I just quit my church (mormon) in october, cold turkey. Went from missing about 1 sunday per year to total inactivity. I didn't talk to anybody but my family (didn't care to), and made a point just to be open about it when anyone wanted to discuss it. I had wasted too much time on religion to really bother with it anymore; I just dropped the whole thing. I had some people come and try and convince me to come back, but that didn't last long at all, because I stood my ground. The discussions I had were reasonable, for the most part, and once they saw that I was committed to my decision, they didn't bother me anymore.

I think what you've got planned is a good approach.

If someone does get ugly, you might just need to tell them that you're willing to discuss your beliefs, if they really want to know whats going on with you, but that you don't want to listen to preaching (you've heard it all a thousand times before anyways, right?). Tell them you that if you want some spiritual direction or guidance, you'll ask for it. Really, the only thing to do is to stand up to them and be blunt about it (in a caring, friendly way, of course). If anyone does decide to be a dick about it and hold it against you, it's just an opportunity to figure out who your real friends are. None of us need "friends" who demand we believe the same way they do just to be on good terms.

Stand your ground, and don't let 'em club you over the head with dogma that you don't even accept anymore. Good luck, man.

[Richard1366]

Don't write a letter, chances are it'll get thrown in the trash unless you send a copy to everyone in the church. Like you said "grow a pair!" Either quit cold turkey or better yet, go to church one last time and say "goodbye" to everyone. When they ask you where you're going and why, be absolutely honest and tell them. Will it be difficult, yes, is it the right thing to do, I think so.

[Hooboy !!]

I quit going cold turkey. I had a similar situation, where I was being relied on and I felt kind of guilty when I didn't show up. But, the funny thing is... the world won't stop spinning and life goes on. They will get over it.

I was very unhappy though and got absolutely nothing from the experience. It sounds like you do get something.

I am actually thinking about finding a new church to start attending. One that will accept me, even if I am atheist. I do not know if such a thing exists, but I would like to have the social value that comes from participating in a local community church.

[Jobar]

If you do go the letter route, let me suggest that you first post it here and ask for critiques. I've found that the constructive criticism you'll get on such things helps a lot.

If there's anyone in particular in your church with whom you would really like to maintain contact and friendship, you have the option of directing them to this thread. If they can read it and still stand by you, they like you as a person and not just as another member of the same flock they're in.

I suggest that you consider things carefully before you actually mail your letter. Doing that will likely burn some bridges; you might want to think about alternatives to leaving your church. If the social and musical parts of it are enjoyable enough that you might be able to grin and bear the dogmatism and cultish aspects, you may want to search out alternative means of satisfying your needs for those things before you commit yourself. The breaking of such social ties and comfortable routines is one of the most difficult things about becoming an atheist.

You seem to have it very clear that your wants and needs are the paramount consideration, here. Watch out for the guilt trips that will be laid on you, by those who would have you think that the needs of the church are more important than your own.

[Atheos]

Like many things in life there just isn't a clear cut answer. You have a lot of conflicting factors to weigh, but in the long run it's your life and your business. Throughout life we find people with whom we share one or more interests. Everyone has flaws, faults, irritating ways etc. Our friends are the ones whos flaws we can accept. Over the years I've had friends to come and go in my life but I've always had friends. I'd just encourage you to be yourself and not be ashamed of that. Your friends can accompany you as you change in life or they can choose not to.

It hurts to let go. I've done it many times and fully expect to do it again. But new friends always replace those that depart. Always.

-Atheos

[Nanook]

I don't know about your church, but when I stopped going to mine the only person who seemed supportive was Pastor Jim. He understood and even seemed to agree, maybe this would be the exception to the rule.

As far as anyone else in church they all seem to ignore me even when I see them around town and when I say hi, how's it going? I get the stone faced wall. The pastor is a good guy and we still talk from time to time about things and he has let me know that any time I need to talk he is available.

I don't know if you are on that close of terms with Fr. Smith but that might be an option, just let him know.

Good Luck, Jim

[southernhybrid]

If the letter is what makes you feel comfortable, then go with it. I'd make it very short, upbeat and friendly. Since you asked for suggestions, here's how I would do it if I were you.

Dear Friends,

After much thought and consideration, I have come to the conclusion that I no longer believe in god. Discovering this has brought a new type of peace and happiness to my life, however it makes my attendance at church a bit of a contradiction. I enjoy being with the many friends I've made over the years, and hope that some of you will find new opportunities to socialize with me, but I no longer feel like I can be a member of the church community given our different viewpoints regarding Christianity.

This parting is bittersweet for me. While I'm happy and secure in my newly discovered worldview, I regret having to leave a community that has been important to me for such a long time.

Please accept my best wishes for a happy and peaceful future.

As always I remain your friend,

[barlam]

its a tough cookie isnt it >.<
i took the easy way out, went oneday and never came back, i have a tendancy of dissapearing from peoples lives and it never bothers me. one day they know me and then they never see me again. harsh but it gets the job done. (btw i dont suggest this option, i wouldnt suggest it to anyone tbh)

[JohNeo]

If the letter is what makes you feel comfortable, then go with it. I'd make it very short, upbeat and friendly. Since you asked for suggestions, here's how I would do it if I were you.

Dear Friends,

After much thought and consideration, I have come to the conclusion that I no longer believe in god. Discovering this has brought a new type of peace and happiness to my life, however it makes my attendance at church a bit of a contradiction. I enjoy being with the many friends I've made over the years, and hope that some of you will find new opportunities to socialize with me, but I no longer feel like I can be a member of the church community given our different viewpoints regarding Christianity.

This parting is bittersweet for me. While I'm happy and secure in my newly discovered worldview, I regret having to leave a community that has been important to me for such a long time.

Please accept my best wishes for a happy and peaceful future.

As always I remain your friend,


I like it. I think it pretty well sums up my feelings. :thumbs:

JohNeo

[Amanda Hugginkiss]

I am actually thinking about finding a new church to start attending. One that will accept me, even if I am atheist. I do not know if such a thing exists, but I would like to have the social value that comes from participating in a local community church.
I see similar sentiments here pretty often, and I just can't understand this reasoning. You must have other interests besides your (non) religious beliefs, and there must be social organizations that would inspire and satisfy those interests. Whether it's an animal shelter, a children's hospital, MENSA, board game clubs, a skydiving group, whatever - all of these are opportunities to socialize with people of common interests and hobbies. Why is it that so many athiests and agnostics feel drawn to churches??

[JohNeo]

I see similar sentiments here pretty often, and I just can't understand this reasoning. You must have other interests besides your (non) religious beliefs, and there must be social organizations that would inspire and satisfy those interests. Whether it's an animal shelter, a children's hospital, MENSA, board game clubs, a skydiving group, whatever - all of these are opportunities to socialize with people of common interests and hobbies. Why is it that so many athiests and agnostics feel drawn to churches??

Not everyone's interested in animal shelters, children's hospitals, board game clubs, etc. I'm not smart enough to get into MENSA. :rolleyes: Seriously though, these activities don't offer the same aesthetics that attract atheists, such as the music and ambience of a church.

I have other interests, but just leaving the church without any kind of notice would be akin to you just one day quitting MENSA or any of your other various activities, without any explanation.

As far as finding a new church goes, I still do think about going back to a UU "church" or the Freethought "church" to meet new people, as long as they're not telling me what to believe. And really just as a lot of people (myself among them) object to the right-wing shit that is spewed out in churches, I get frustrated going to Freethought churches and hearing nothing but leftist bile.

JohNeo

[southernhybrid]

I like it. I think it pretty well sums up my feelings.

Good. Let us know what you finally end up doing.

sohy

[Jobar]

As far as finding a new church goes, I still do think about going back to a UU "church" or the Freethought "church" to meet new people, as long as they're not telling me what to believe. And really just as a lot of people (myself among them) object to the right-wing shit that is spewed out in churches, I get frustrated going to Freethought churches and hearing nothing but leftist bile.

Hey, that's right- Dallas has a CoF, doesn't it? I wish there were something like that in Atlanta; southernhybrid, her hubby, and I often attend the Atlanta Freethought Society, or the Ga. Humanists' Ass'n; I find the lectures and discussions fascinating, and the people often remind me of ones here on II.

We unbelievers, sadly, have even less to unite us than the theists; our only certain common belief is a disbelief, and so the ones of us who would enjoy being part of a group of like minds have less social 'glue' to hold any such group together. In the past, II has had many discussions about more positive things that might serve to unite us; we do seem to have quite liberal social values, many of us, and so the 'leftist bile' you speak of is common. (Though aside from a few dedicated Marxists, I don't think I've heard it get so bad as to call it 'bile'.)

Errrr- pardon my slight side tracking of your thread, John. But if you have any ideas about how we skeptics might form social organizations which would serve us, do post 'em!

[Bitterness]

Just go in one day wearing a harry potter t shirt or a Pentagram.

You will get thrown out so you wont have to worry!

[JohNeo]

<snip>In the past, II has had many discussions about more positive things that might serve to unite us; we do seem to have quite liberal social values, many of us, and so the 'leftist bile' you speak of is common. (Though aside from a few dedicated Marxists, I don't think I've heard it get so bad as to call it 'bile'.)

Errrr- pardon my slight side tracking of your thread, John. But if you have any ideas about how we skeptics might form social organizations which would serve us, do post 'em!

I think I was probably overstating the leftist bile found in Freethought churches, etc. The leftist bile I speak of is largely based on the political discussions I witness here on IIDB--which I would be well served to not participate. The fiery rhetoric is not so intense in the Church of Freethought, or the Atheist Meetups I go to, but sometimes it is like a Democratic Party convention. Inevitably the conversations turn to "Bush is an idiot" or "Bush is trying to destroy us all," or "let's find a way to impeach Bush" etc. It's not that I am a fan of Bush, but if I wanted to go to a Democratic meetup, I would become active in the Democratic Party. I am quite turned off by partisan politics. To me, it's not much better than going to church and hearing Christians go on and on about "them."

As for social organizations, I guess the best thing to do is find our own interests in non-religious matters, and join those organizations or just make the effort to meet people with common interests. There are plenty of chat rooms and discussion boards to accomplish that. A start for me is to become more active in professional organizations such as the Urban Land Institute, and maybe also the local chapter of my University Alumni Association. Also, I am still interested in doing volunteer work for the American Cancer Society, once I make the donation it seems they require to become active. Basically anything I can do that is not centered around politics and religion would suit me.

Anyway, I still have not yet quit the church altogether, but disengaging in religious conversations has helped me dramatically. And it seems that people there are gradually accepting that I'm not committed to it--that helps a lot as well. I don't get called on to work on projects for community outreach (church recruiting) anymore. :) It's actually kind of nice when the people there can just tell me it's good to see me, and nothing more.


I'm ramblin' again.

JohNeo

[Lógos Sokratikós]

I'd say phase out. Find a good fake explanation, like additional job duties or family commitments. Once you're low on attendance for a few months, they'll forget.

Or, you could tell them you joined a different church, people do that all the time. Make one up, you could even "join" for a month or two, then bail on the new one.

Confronting people will get you grief and annoyance. But, OTOH, it will be a clean break, if you're ready to deal with all the shot it involves.

Me, I'm more of a stealth guy.


I agree with the phasing out, but not for stealth, but because one needs a social group, one needs friends! And it's not simple, it's a slow process. Not that they should all be freethinkers, but friends who don't give a darn what you think!

[fast]

You will come to regret the letter!

[JohNeo]

You will come to regret the letter!

Fortunately I began drafting it, and the catharsis helped relieve a lot of my frustrations. I have never sent it, and I may never need to.

[Shake]

Just come up with 95 reasons why you don't want to go anymore and nail them to the church door! :Cheeky:

Seriously now ... I'm not a confrontational type, so I'd probably go the stealth route as well. I'd agree with all who've suggested the slow phasing out process. To those who are genuinely concerned about something being wrong, I'd just reassure them that everything is OK and say that you're just not comfortable with your current commitment level to the church (which is true, of course). Try to make them feel at ease, but perhaps you may need to ask them to simply respect your wishes in this regard without prying.

Of course, you know these people better than any of us do. For some, the band-aid approach may be the best. Saying, "Look, I've come to the realization that I'm an atheist, and I just don't feel comfortable here anymore," might get an, "Oh. Well, I'm sorry you won't stick around, but you need to be comfortable," out of the understanding sort. But you'd have to be prepared for the opposite reaction, too. That's something most people seek to avoid, because it just causes too much pain.

Anyway, good luck, and let us know how things go!

[TexasRose30]

Just come up with 95 reasons why you don't want to go anymore and nail them to the church door! :Cheeky:

You know, that sounds like exactly what I told him :rolling:

Texas Rose

[JohNeo]

Just come up with 95 reasons why you don't want to go anymore and nail them to the church door! :Cheeky:

<snip>

hmmmm, yeah I thought that sounded familiar! ;)

Problem is, how in the world do I narrow down the list to 95? :rolling:

[mrgenius]

this is a great thread. i'm am in a similar position. i left my church over a year ago, but many people still assume that i am a believer that attends somewhere else now.

[JohNeo]

this is a great thread. i'm am in a similar position. i left my church over a year ago, but many people still assume that i am a believer that attends somewhere else now.

Thanks Mr. Genius. :) Feel free to share your experiences on the thread.

Which denomination were you? I was Episcopalian.

It would not be so bad if people would just assume I must be attending some other church. Instead, people were coming up to me, asking things like "is everything all right?!"

JohNeo

[mrgenius]

i was baptist. i actually worked as a minister there. :eek: :banghead:

[JohNeo]

i was baptist. i actually worked as a minister there. :eek: :banghead:

Oh, oh oh OHH! Well, I can see where that might have caused a little trauma. :(

In that case, you might do well to start up your own thread and/or share your deconversion story!

[Wildgrass]

This may not serve your social needs, but I have appreciated for a long time the things you can do while others are in church.

In West Michigan shopping is great on Sunday mornings. Meijers is so much easier!

When my daughter was young, we went to the local zoo and had it all to ourselves. It was quiet and we could stay and watch the animals for as long as we wanted. We had the best time.

[JohNeo]

This may not serve your social needs, but I have appreciated for a long time the things you can do while others are in church.

In West Michigan shopping is great on Sunday mornings. Meijers is so much easier!

When my daughter was young, we went to the local zoo and had it all to ourselves. It was quiet and we could stay and watch the animals for as long as we wanted. We had the best time.

My SO and I keep talking about going to the movies on Sunday morning, when there is no one there. Somehow we never get out of bed in time though.... ;)

[TexasRose30]

My SO and I keep talking about going to the movies on Sunday morning, when there is no one there. Somehow we never get out of bed in time though.... ;)

Just tell 'em your eeeevil atheist girlfriend won't let you out of bed in time to get to church :devil3:

Texas Rose

[Joslyn]

There may be an echo in here, but yes this situation is one tough cookie. I was lucky in that the church I went to was boring and not a very close knit community. I had no friends there (excepting people who were actually friends from other places in my life...and also hated being there! :) ). It was easy to leave. One day my mother told me, "I'm sick of trying to force you to go to church. Stay until your confirmation for your great grandmother's sake, and then do what you want." Confirmation was only the second or third time I ever did the confessional thing, and it was the last time I set foot in a church save a funeral or wedding here and there.

I guess this is what I'd do in your shoes, JohNeo. I'd leave and never go back to the church with no public explanation--cold turkey. Give warning in advance that you won't be able to help anywhere you might have helped in the past, but no need to explain yourself. Yes, people will speculate as to why you left, but if they don't have any fodder like a letter, they'll get bored with it sooner or later.

Then, if there are people who are part of the church who you still want as friends but don't already know you are an atheist, you can approach them personally and explain your difficulties. If they get preachy, just tell them to think about what you said and don't bother arguing back. Some people may come around quickly, some slowly. The ones who never come around were never your friends to begin with--they only liked the mask you had to present these last few months, not the real you with all the compexities and feelings that lie therein.

You know, theists are the ones who claim they have souls, but when I talk to non-believers, even online, they always feel so much more real to me. Oh well, I guess I'm just a little :devil3: .

Joslyne

[Sparrow]

I've often found the process of writing the letter helped me focus my thoughts on why I believed or did (didn't believe or didn't do) something. I very rarely allow anyone else to see those thoughts, but they are then organized for the inevitable discussion.

There is something that you and your SO are interested in (besides that!) that others are also interested in. Find them. You'll be glad you did.

Although I'm not currently doing this (marriage and kids have their priorities), I used to use Sunday mornings to expose myself to things I didn't know much about. Expanding my horizons so to speak. If I knew of a social gathering that offered such explorations without the supernatural mumbo jumbo I'd go to that.

Good Luck

[marylandnaturegirl]

Personally, I think you need give them no explanation at all. If anyone asks why you aren't there you can just flat out tell them "Its for personal reasons and I'd rather not discuss it" If they press further day "drop it" or mind your own business.

You could always sarcastically say, "Well, ya know I have fallen in love with the Father, or the wife of the Father or whatever.....lol"

You could tell them "God spoke to me and told me he has other plans for me on Sundays, a mission, but that its between him and I, and I must keep it private" hehehehe.

If you truly must give them an explanation you can do this thing called a DEAR MAN.

You only write 4 sentences.

D is for Describe as in describe the situation.
E is for Emotion, this is where you describe how the situation makes you feel using at least 3 or 4 very descriptive emotions.
A is forAssert : Ask for what you want
R is for Reinforce why this is good for you AND why it is good for them.

Don't make justifications or excuses or apologies in your 4 sentences.
Don't make accusations either. keep it simple and nice. :rolleyes:


For example.

Dear Church Friends:

I have found that no longer wish to attend this church.
I am happy, and at peace with this decision, but also anguished, and sad that I won't be seeing all of you during this community gathering in the future.
I would like you all to respect my decision to leave the church and not ask me questions about it as it is a personal and private matter which I don't wish to discuss.
You will still see me around town and at other community events as well doing volunteer work in other areas and I hope we can enrich eachother's lives at those times.

Best wishes,

Joe So and So. :p

This format has been found to be highly effective in interpersonal communications. All too often people think they have to explain every detail to people and make justifications for their decision and apologize etc.

However, when you apologize and justify your reasons for doing something or make accusations or implications people are usually offended or come back at you with more questions.

DEAR MAN's effectively express to people what you are trying to communicate and you try to make it sound like a win-win situation for everyone. If you can make the last sentence be a a good thing in it for me and good thing in it for you, that is the Reinforce part.

You can probably come up with some other emotion words but this is just an example.

[marylandnaturegirl]

I'd advocate cold turkey, not the phase out plan.

Also, it seems to me you are worrying much to much about what they will think of you and what is going on in their heads.

No one is a mind reader and as I've been told by wise people, its none of your business what goes on in other people's heads so get out of their heads.
It does you no good to ruminate about what they are thinking about you because often its not as bad as you think anyway.

If they are good people then they will be friends with you no matter if you go to church or not. If they are judging you for not attending, then dump them, who needs friends like that? Afterall, according to their religion its up to God to judge people, not them. All that 'he who is amongst you that has not sinned cast the first stone" crap.

I had a co-worker that was always giving me a hard time about being an atheist. I realized after awhile that she was no friend of mine. I never gave her a hard time about her religiousness.

Its really none of their bees wax why you don't show up, personal reasons are just that.....personal. They are rude if they try to force you to explain.
For all they know you could need to go to chemotherapy or dialysis on Sundays or you could have gotten a DWI and have to do your community service punishment on Sundays. Or you could be working at the homeless shelter on Sundays......or you could simply be a sufferer of Migraine headaches and all that singing and noise in church makes it worse.

Point is, if you say its personal, and they pick at it, then they are nosy jerks and good riddance.

Have you ever thought of moving out of the Bible Zone? Head to Austin or somewhere? Socialize with your Atheist meetup buddies more, perhaps do things outside of meetups. Sing at a Karoke bar if you need to get your singing time in.

Lots of solutions. You are a complete person yourself and you don't need other people to complete you.

Good Luck! :thumbs:

[marylandnaturegirl]

My High School boyfriend suggested that when I moved to the bible belt to go to college that if any bible thumpers knocked on my door I should just roll my eyes around like a crazed person and say in a snake like talking in tongues scowl "Fuuuuuu****K Jeeeeeeeeeeeesus....."

Hhhahahah.

Honestly though, bottom line is you need to do what is best for YOU and if that means you don't want to waste your precious time during your precious one life at Church then that is your perogative.

I wouldn't worry so much about what all those people think. Screw 'em!

You don't have to be rude or burn bridges. Just tell them you will not be attending anymore for personal reasons, and adios.

It seems to me that they are "understaffed" so to speak and their concern about your attendance has nothing to do with them worrying about saving your soul as much as they need another laborer to take the burden off of some of them. Another person willing to volunteer to WORK for them. So I think its for selfish reasons they bug you about coming to church to bear all these burdens for them like ushering, greeting, singing, whatever.

I am sure they enjoy your company but volunteer groups hate to see hard working volunteers leave cause that means more work for the rest of them so they will pressure you to stay.

The sooner you leave, the sooner it will be over with and remember, human beings have been around for what 67 million years? In 1,000 years from now will it really matter what these bozos thought of you? What is important is how you feel about yourself and if you think you are a good person it doesn't matter what they think. Any of them that are giving you a hard time are either selfish or jerks and not true friends. They should be supportive not pressuring and judgemental. WHo needs that?

Did you ever quit a club in high school? Maybe you quit the tennis team, or soccer team or chess club, or model UN or spanish club or whatever. Perhaps back then you worried what your teachers, coach, advisor, other clubmates would think of you. But looking back at it years later, who cares what those people thought and its all long forgotten now. Get out as soon as you can cause in a year or two, either way you will likely laugh and kick yourself for wasting so much time agonizing over it.

:rolleyes:

[LeeBuhrul]

... but it's bringing me too much pain and confusion, and it makes it impossible to fully recover from my loss of God when people keep trying to get me back in the flock. If they can agree to lay off me, fine. If they can't accept that and feel it's necessary to keep asking me if I have returned to Jesus, etc. then I will never be seen in the building again.

Does this sound like a viable solution? Can I get a little encouragement, or suggestions for things to write in the letter, or possible alternatives to just quitting outright? Your suggestions are valued. :)

JohNeo

Some day, soon i hope, you will know what is wrong in that sentence... when you do your journey will be over... and you will look forward to the next destination and be eager not to look back...

[HH32]

Hi fellow infidels, pardon the long post, but I really need some help.

Many of you might have noticed in my posts that I still attend church on occasion, just because it is a part of my social life that I have not yet been ready to let go of. I have let most of my close friends in the church know that I am atheist, and they seem to be cool with it. Also, I have always liked the pipe organ, the stained glass and the choral music.....

JohNeo

Reading your post was intense, honestly I had no Idea it was like that for an "in the closet athiest" Almost everybody I am close friends with are athiests and there not much of a church community in my town of 75,000 residents. I work in an office with about 500 people and never have I been asked, "what is your religion?" or "do you go to church". I dont know one co-workers religious beliefs.

Hopefully people will be able to look past your religious beliefs, its not like your trying to convert anybody or your bad mouthing the church, sounds like your a civil fellow... either way I hope they can act like adults when they do find out. I dont think supressing it is a good idea.

[Sparrow]

... but it's bringing me too much pain and confusion, and it makes it impossible to fully recover from my loss of God when people keep trying to get me back in the flock. If they can agree to lay off me, fine. If they can't accept that and feel it's necessary to keep asking me if I have returned to Jesus, etc. then I will never be seen in the building again.

Does this sound like a viable solution? Can I get a little encouragement, or suggestions for things to write in the letter, or possible alternatives to just quitting outright? Your suggestions are valued.

JohNeo

Some day, soon i hope, you will know what is wrong in that sentence... when you do your journey will be over... and you will look forward to the next destination and be eager not to look back...Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get what advice you're offering to JohNeo here.

[JohNeo]

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get what advice you're offering to JohNeo here.

What I got out of reading that sentence is that a flock making the lost sheep miserable in trying to win them back is not a good flock to be part of... :huh:

I am correct?

If so, I would have to agree. The longer I stay away from the church, the better. I inadvertently missed my duties yesterday, so I'm off the hook for a couple more weeks. :cool:

By the way, I will likely be moving about 30 miles north late this year ;) , so I will be able to permanently resign my posts for my church duties, and I'll probably never return. :D

By the way, I'm doing quite nicely without God. Thanks all for your continued input.

JohNeo

[TexasRose30]

What I got out of reading that sentence is that a flock making the lost sheep miserable in trying to win them back is not a good flock to be part of... :huh:

I am correct?

If so, I would have to agree. The longer I stay away from the church, the better. I inadvertently missed my duties yesterday, so I'm off the hook for a couple more weeks. :cool:

By the way, I will likely be moving about 30 miles north late this year ;) , so I will be able to permanently resign my posts for my church duties, and I'll probably never return. :D

By the way, I'm doing quite nicely without God. Thanks all for your continued input.

JohNeo

Like I said before, it'll be the perfect excuse, that it's too far to drive on Sunday morning. Hmmm... that'll probably bring the total number of atheists in my neighborhood up to two. There are so many fish cars there.

Texas Rose

[Bill Mutz]

Say that you're an atheist these days but continue to hang out with them out of enjoyment of their company in spite of your waning interest in the affair of going to church in and of itself. Explain that your lack of any reason to continue showing up other than to stay in touch and keep up with affairs makes maintaining the upkeep of your house and yard a more efficient use of your time on some days, and offer some of them to come over after services to help out with things and to do the same for them on other days. You can build a new social life out of the same boards that you started with by making a regular activity of this, and, if nothing else, anyone who participates will have the nicest front yards in the neighborhood. There has to be someone at your church who has nothing to do on Sunday afternoons. Once you've established a new social framework that has constituents connected with the church, you can just have someone in your new pack relay your excuses and apologies on days that you don't show up.

It doesn't have to be yard work, neccessarily. It can be any constructive activity in which you and a few others have a mutual interest. Perhaps a part of you would rather spend that time watching NFL, but you really do need to find a way to depart from your church without giving up your social life.

Don't be too offended over being asked about your whereabouts; they're just worried about you, thinking you might be ill or depressed. Friends who actually care about you don't come cheaply, you know.

I can't help you much with coming out about being an atheist. The only way I know to say it is to just say it flatout, no awkwardness or faltering. If you can just casually say, without missing a beat, that you're an atheist, you'll be fine, and you might want to start with one of your more open-minded friends.