goldfish number.....

[sibel]

okey, i may elaborate the points id like to chat about at a later point, but this first post will just be short. basically, id like to hear how people justify themselves having children or other chosen dependants.

particularly do you feel the guilt of creating someone to be dependent on you, to provide you with the love you lack and give your life meaning?

does everyone have an innate desire to create something, to leave something or someone to the future, or not?

is it currently possible to love somebody in a way that means you want them to be free from attachment to you?

is the desire to have children the last resort, the last thing left to put yourself and your hope into when religion, objective value systems, deterministic and/or utopian social ideology, and the belief in true love have been rendered invalid?

[Mageth]

okey, i may elaborate the points id like to chat about at a later point, but this first post will just be short. basically, id like to hear how people justify themselves having children or other chosen dependants.

Well, human life would soon end if we didn't. And most people simply don't think about the ethical/philosophical questions of having children very deeply.

particularly do you feel the guilt of creating someone to be dependent on you, to provide you with the love you lack and give your life meaning?

No.

And this question is phrased like the famous: "Do you still beat your wife?"

does everyone have an innate desire to create something, to leave something or someone to the future, or not?

No, not everyone.

is it currently possible to love somebody in a way that means you want them to be free from attachment to you?

Sappy '60s sentimentality? "Love means you never have to say you're sorry", "If you love me, let me go", and stuff like that?

is the desire to have children the last resort, the last thing left to put yourself and your hope into when religion, objective value systems, deterministic and/or utopian social ideology, and the belief in true love have been rendered invalid?

Umm, no. But that's another one of those "Do you still beat your wife?" questions...

[fast]

sibel,

Talk about a glass half empty!

is it currently possible to love somebody in a way that means you want them to be free from attachment to you?

Intentionally, I don't know -- you got me on this one.

[knowitall]

I think you bring up significant ideas. I don't think parenthood needs to be as shelfish as you're saying it might be. But I've yet to be a parent and I've seen parents act that way. Any grandparents want to drop their knowledge on this thread?

[Bill B]

Methinks a slight dose of humility may be in order.

We are one species among many that are currently successful life forms resulting from evolution through natural selection. The process is currently in charge--not us. We reproduce as part of this process--it's a build-in desire and we're simply going along for the ride. We basically go with the flow--even though we often enjoy piling on multiple layers of psychological complexity (who knows why).

Evolution doesn't give a damn about guilt, religion, the need for "justification", true love, emotional angst, or other human feelings. It is simply a remarkable process which developed over a billion year time span, and which enables the incredible phenomenon of life to continue. Someday we may control it, but that sure as hell hasn't happened yet.