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Toto
May 2, 2005, 04:47 PM
The LA Times Health section had an article today: Far-off Healing (http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-prayer2may02,0,3690879.story?coll=la-home-health) (should have been far out healing, since the author seems to have an addled point of view.)

I am almost riled up enough to write a letter to the editor. I would like help tracking down the unsupported claims about successful prayer studies.

E.g. In the early '90s, Elisabeth Targ and colleagues at the California Pacific Medical Center studied the effects of distant healing on 20 AIDS patients. Schlitz, who worked with Targ (who died of a brain tumor in 2002), said the study found those receiving prayer survived in greater numbers, got sick less often and recovered faster than those who did not. A follow-up study of 40 patients found similar results.

However, from here (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/prayer.html?pg=5&topic=&topic_set=) WHAT TOO FEW PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT TARG'S FAMOUS AIDS STUDY

That her study had been unblinded and then "reblinded" to scour for data that confirmed the thesis - and the Western Journal of Medicine did not know this fact when it decided to publish.

Her famous study was not, as its reputation suggests, designed to measure the number of AIDS-related illnesses. Targ and Fred Sicher had targeted their study to measure mortality but were caught off-guard by triple-drug anti-retroviral therapy, which became common practice one month into the six-month trial. When biostatistician Dan Moore broke the randomization code to unblind the data, it told them nothing - since only one patient had died, the data was meaningless.

Moore brought Targ and Sicher into his office and showed him the data on his computer. Moore thought this new triple-drug therapy was nothing short of a medical miracle, the triumph of science. It was saving lives! But Targ and Sicher didn't want to see it that way. Targ asked him to crunch the numbers on the secondary scores - one a measure of HIV physical symptoms, the other a measure of quality of life. These came out inconclusive; the treatment group didn't score better than the control. Not what they wanted to find. In dismay, Targ called her father. He calmed her down, told her to keep looking. She had Moore run the mood state scores. These came out worse - the treatment group was in more psychological stress than the control group. Same for CD4+ counts. Targ flew down to Santa Fe to attend a conference at a Buddhist retreat run by her godmother. When she called back to Moore's office, Sicher answered. Moore was crunching the last data they had, hospital stays and doctor visits. "Looks like we have statistical significance!" Moore announced. Sicher told Targ, who turned and yelled out to her friends and the conference.

Bingo.

Later that week, Moore met with an AIDS physician at California Pacific Medical Center. This doctor thought distant healing was bogus but agreed to give advice. He remarked that the length of hospital stays wasn't very meaningful. Patients with health insurance tend to stay in hospitals longer than uninsured ones. He pointed Moore to an important AIDS paper that had been recently published. It defined the 23 illnesses associated with AIDS. He told Moore they ought to have been measuring the occurrence of these illnesses all along. Moore took this list to Targ and Sicher. There was only one problem. They hadn't collected this data.

They gathered the medical charts and gave them to their assistant to black out the names of the patients. This done, Targ and Sicher began poring over the charts again, noting the data they hadn't previously collected. Since Sicher had interviewed many of these patients (up to three times), Moore worried Sicher could recognize them just by the dates they came to the hospital and what they were treated for. Sicher admitted he could (there were only 40). He had also seen which group each patient was assigned to, treatment or control, but he swore he didn't remember and maintained he was therefore impartial. (Sicher remembers this differently. He insists he couldn't recognize the patients from their charts and never knew which group each was in.) Targ told her boyfriend she was worried about Sicher's impartiality, but she took him at his word, even though Sicher was an ardent believer in distant healing, by his own frequent admission. He had put up the money himself for the pilot study ($7,500), had paid for the blood tests. He had a vested interest in the outcome.

This isn't what science means by double-blind. The data may all be legitimate, but it's not good form. Statisticians call this the sharpshooter's fallacy - spraying bullets randomly, then drawing a target circle around a cluster. When Targ and Sicher wrote the paper that made her famous, they let the reader assume that all along their study had been designed to measure the 23 AIDS-related illnesses - even though they're careful never to say so. They never mentioned that this was the last in a long list of endpoints they looked at, or that it was data collected after an unblinding.

At about the same time, Duke University's Krucoff was leading a small but unusual experiment to determine if cardiac patients would recover faster after angioplasty surgery if they received any of several intangible (noetic) treatments. His study compared the results of healing touch, stress relaxation and distant healing with standard care.

Spiritual healers from around the world — including Jews leaving prayers at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, Buddhists praying in monasteries in Nepal and France, Carmelite nuns in Baltimore offering prayers during vespers, and Moravians, Baptists and fundamental Christians praying during church — each simultaneously prayed for one of several designated groups in the study.

All of the groups did better than the standard care group, with those receiving distant prayers doing best. He has since completed a larger, multi-site study. That study — the largest to date — is currently under review for publication in a medical journal.

Krucoff (http://www.rhine.org/about_bod.htm) seems to be a new-Age type: Dr. Mitch Krucoff is Associate Prof. of Medicine/Cardiology at DUMC, Director of the Cardiovascular Labs at the VA, Senior Faculty at Duke Clinical Research Institute and Director of their Interventional Clinical Trials Labs. After a B.A. in religious studies (Yale,1980) and an M.D from George Washington, he completed a residency in internal medicine and a fellowship in cardiology. After several years on the Georgetown faculty, he joined the cardiology faculty at DUMC in 1988. Dr. Krucoff has served on the Board of Directors of the Sri Satya Sai Institute of Higher Medical Sciences in Puttaparthi, India. He serves as consultant to the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute , NIH's National Center for Complementary & Alternative Medicine, and the Cardiovascular and Circulatory Devices Panel at the FDA. Dr. Krucoff has published more than 100 articles and book chapters on various aspects of cardiology, coronary care, spirituality and complementary medicine . He is the principal investigator of the Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) Study Project at DUMC.

His study is mentioned here (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/11/1674_51527?printing=true)

But religious tolerance seems to know of another study (http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical4.htm) of his that showed no effect.

Does anyone know of a more comprehensive source for Krucoff's studies?

rexrex4
May 4, 2005, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by LA Times
..of prayer and spirituality on health. A survey of 31,000 adults released last year by the national Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that 43% of U.S. adults prayed for their own health, while 24% had others pray for their health.

Some researchers say that is reason enough to study the power of prayer.

"Almost every community in the world has a prayer for the sick, which they practice when a member of their community is ill," said Dr. Mitchell Krucoff, a Duke University cardiologist and researcher in the field of distant prayer and healing. "It is a ubiquitous cultural practice, as far as we can tell…. Cultural practices in healthcare frequently have a clue. But understanding that clue, learning how to best use it, requires basic clinical science."
I can't help with finding out who or what Krucoff is.
But really the whole business of the LA times printing the story is silly. The LA times is just entertaining and obligingly publishing a story that it knows will please many readers and give a pastor the chance to trumpet how science is acknowing what christians knew all along. But the story changes not one thing in the real world.
The quote I have selected tells you that. It tells you people pray for themselves and for others. And guess what , they have been doing that throughout human history. And so we already know what the result of the experiment is. It is the world we see arround us.
I say let them experiment away. But please let them keep their mouths shut untill they really know and can prove something.I mean do I really need drip drip propaganda such as this story is?

Toto
May 4, 2005, 04:49 PM
This was not in the entertainment section of the LA Times - it was in the health section. And it implies that there is some real science behind distance prayer - at least enough to justify the expenditure of tax dollars and foundation money.

And the whole point is the propaganda.

Happy Wonderer
May 4, 2005, 11:02 PM
Umm, lesse. I think that Krucoff is measuring an event with too small of an effect -- don't people generally recover from angio surgery pretty quickly? I thought that was the point.

A better study would be to compare angioplasty with distant healing. Randomly assign heart patients into those who are treated with angioplasty and those who are given fake angioplasty but real prayers.

Now that would be an effect that you could measure!

hw

BioBeing
May 4, 2005, 11:02 PM
You can search all his papers at www.pubmed.org Enter "Krucoff M" for all 107. Most of them look kosher type studies, from a quick glance. Add "Prayer" to the search terms, and you get 3. From one of these:

CONCLUSIONS: Acceptance of noetic [non-pharmacological, ED] adjuncts to invasive therapy for acute coronary syndromes was excellent, and logistics were feasible. No outcomes differences were significant; however, index hospitalization data consistently suggested a therapeutic benefit with noetic therapy. Of all noetic therapies, off-site intercessory prayer had the lowest short- and long-term absolute complication rates.
Note - these are ADJUNTS toinvasive therapy - that is they are done as well. Prayer was accepted by the patients (go figure), was easy to perform and did not have many complications - again go figure. But, it had no effect of the therapy. Of course, more studies are needed, yada yada, but bottom line is prayer doesn't work, unless you fudge the results (IVF, anyone?). Lying for Jesus makes the unfertilized embryos cry.

The Annals of Internal Medicine article mentioned in the LA Times section is here (free PDF) (http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/132/11/903.pdf) or here (abstract) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10836918).

Science has only begun to explore the power of distant healing, and the early results of this research have been inconclusive. In an article published in the Annals of Internal Medicine in 2000, researchers reported on 23 studies on various distant healing techniques, including religious, energy and spiritual healing. Thirteen of the 23 studies indicated there are positive effects to distant healing, nine studies found no beneficial effect and one study showed a modest negative effect with the use of distant healing.

PURPOSE: To conduct a systematic review of the available data on the efficacy of any form of "distant healing" (prayer, mental healing, Therapeutic Touch, or spiritual healing) as treatment for any medical condition. DATA SOURCES: Studies were identified by an electronic search of the MEDLINE, PsychLIT, EMBASE, CISCOM, and Cochrane Library databases from their inception to the end of 1999 and by contact with researchers in the field. STUDY SELECTION: Studies with the following features were included: random assignment, placebo or other adequate control, publication in peer-reviewed journals, clinical (rather than experimental) investigations, and use of human participants. DATA EXTRACTION: Two investigators independently extracted data on study design, sample size, type of intervention, type of control, direction of effect (supporting or refuting the hypothesis), and nature of the outcomes. DATA SYNTHESIS: A total of 23 trials involving 2774 patients met the inclusion criteria and were analyzed. Heterogeneity of the studies precluded a formal meta-analysis. Of the trials, 5 examined prayer as the distant healing intervention, 11 assessed noncontact Therapeutic Touch, and 7 examined other forms of distant healing. Of the 23 studies, 13 (57%) yielded statistically significant treatment effects, 9 showed no effect over control interventions, and 1 showed a negative effect. CONCLUSIONS: The methodologic limitations of several studies make it difficult to draw definitive conclusions about the efficacy of distant healing. However, given that approximately 57% of trials showed a positive treatment effect, the evidence thus far merits further study.

Of the actual prayer studies, of which there were five, apparently 2 showed positive effects, and 3 showed no effect, and overall there was a slight positive effect (the two that worked were bigger than the 3 that didn’t. I haven’t looked yet at the studies themselves. But some of the comments (see the abstract link) do offer further light: by positive outcome, they mean that *one* of the reported effects was improved by prayer. In the Harris study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10547166), for example (one of the positive results), there are problems also (http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-05/prayer.html), in that the prayer started after some of the patients left the hospital…

I gotta go now, I’ll see if I can pull up some more stuff tomorrow.

Happy Wonderer
May 4, 2005, 11:28 PM
in that the that the prayer started after some of the patients left the hospital…

I'm psychic, I tell you -- I was just out wandering my driveway wondering if they had made that mistake! What a way to cause an effect -- pray for the people who have already gotten well!

hw

hagiograph
May 5, 2005, 10:01 AM
Well, clearly all this skepticism about miracles from prayer will be laid to rest by the great Joseph Farrah, Editor-in-Christ at Wingnut Daily!

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44123

He claims that he FINALLY took it upon himself to not just pray for everyone around him, but to finally take some of God's time to heal his foot! He read a book called "Megashift" or some such and prayed with his wife (I assume to boost the signal to God)...and guess what...his foot was finally painfree after 15 years!

Did Joseph provide any before-after X-Ray images of his ravaged joints? No. Did Joseph provide any sort of actual "physical evidence" for this miracle? Well, again, no. But it's JOSEPH FARRAH! Buy the book from WND Press! Pray with your god-appointed opposite-gendered spouse et viola!

But Joseph goes further to say the following:

Today is the National Day of Prayer. I want you to embrace it. I want you to observe it. I want you to participate in it. I want you to make today the first day of the rest of your prayer life. Because prayer works. It works better than letters to your congressmen. It works better than voting. I believe God can heal this nation. I believe He want to heal this nation. I believe He is just waiting for us to ask.

So stop writing letters to your congressman, and stop voting, just PRAY for a better world. It's a frickin' MIRACLE!

-h

BioBeing
May 5, 2005, 10:11 AM
Ha! I wish all the Christian extremists in this country would take his advice. If they all sit in their closets and pray the rest of us can maybe get on with the actual business of living.

rexrex4
May 5, 2005, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Joseph Farrah
Because, after I read a new book last week, "Megashift," by Jim Rutz, I was inspired to do something I never did before – pray with my wife, Elizabeth, for a healing for me.
I live up here in Medford Oregon. I heard about Mr. Farrah years ago from a pastor who claimed he was a member of his church, Applegate Christian Fellowship.
WorldNetDaily.com is published by
WorldNetDaily.com, Inc.
PO Box 1087 – Grants Pass, OR 97528
(541) 474-1776 or FAX: (541) 474-1770
This is their adress.Grants Pass is about ahalf hour drive from here. So it is quite possible Farrah went to that chuch. A pro zionist church which is why the pastor mainly and often quoted WND writers.
The point I want to make is that for Farrah to claim he had never before prayed with his wife is about as likely as G W Bush is from the planet Pluto.
Oh heck, why did I go and sabotage myself ? Pluto? ARF ,ARF. Could Bush be from Pluto really? Did Farrah never before engage in an orgy of prayer?
I say let them pray on but please stop preying on...