Jesus the Villain?

[Dazza]

I was thinking about Jesus yesterday, for some reason, and was struck by a small conundurm. I hope it isn't an old, boring one, but please excuse me if it was - I'm a little new to this.

As I understand it, before Jesus, people would be admitted to heaven just by leading a good life (however you wish to describe that). Once Jesus was crucified, resurrected, etc, people had to believe that Jesus was the Messiah in order to gain access to heaven.

It seems to me, therefore, that Jesus' arrival on earth was, in fact, a negative influence on the world. Surely more people went to heaven before Jesus than after. Therefore, Jesus directly caused the eternal suffering of, at least, some people. Doesn't this make him a bit of a bad guy?

[Toto]

I was thinking about Jesus yesterday, for some reason, and was struck by a small conundurm. I hope it isn't an old, boring one, but please excuse me if it was - I'm a little new to this.

As I understand it, before Jesus, people would be admitted to heaven just by leading a good life (however you wish to describe that). Once Jesus was crucified, resurrected, etc, people had to believe that Jesus was the Messiah in order to gain access to heaven.

It seems to me, therefore, that Jesus' arrival on earth was, in fact, a negative influence on the world. Surely more people went to heaven before Jesus than after. Therefore, Jesus directly caused the eternal suffering of, at least, some people. Doesn't this make him a bit of a bad guy?

Given that there is no heaven and Jesus' existence can't be proven, I don't think you can assert that before Jesus one could get into heaven just by leading a good life. People who believe that Jesus' death was necessary for salvation believe that before Jesus, no human got into heaven. People who believe that all good folks go to heaven do not think that Jesus made any difference in that regard.

[Dazza]

I don't think that can be the case. I'm almost positive that Christians don't think that everyone before Jesus went to hell. Otherwise there wouldn't be a huge point in David or Solomon following god's law.

[Toto]

David and Solomon followed God's law (if they did) because they believed that it would make them sucessful in battle. The ancient Israelites believed in life on earth; after death, the soul went to Sheol, which was neither heaven nor hell.

Dante pictured Cicero as a guide to Hell; Cicero could not reach heaven because he was not a believer, in spite of his good works.

[Revolutionary]

People who believe that Jesus' death was necessary for salvation believe that before Jesus, no human got into heaven. People who believe that all good folks go to heaven do not think that Jesus made any difference in that regard.I think most Christians think that people like Abraham, Moses, and Elijah got to heaven, even if they had to wait around for centuries for Jesus to show up with the key.

Whatever the case, not as many people would have made it into heaven, in which case God is the villain, which makes Jesus a villain again since he's supposed to be God, too. :down:

[Boomeister]

I've always wondered this as well. I remember when I was a child I asked "what happened to the people before Jesus' time? did they go to heaven?"
I was told that if they believed there would be an upcoming messiah, to the best of their knowledge (implied Jewish knowledge) then they would be in heaven.
But it seems to me that if we use the Jewish religion as the true religion, before Christianity (this of course is also assuming that Christianity is the true religion; in which I will, for the sake of this argument), then more people are condemned by this new guideline of having to accept Jesus than they were with the Jewish guideline. Jews recognized that Gentiles would share in the kingdom of God. So Judaism, although it had tough standards for Jews to live by because God wanted them to be the example, was much less harsh when it came to the standards of what can help you to enter the kingdom of God. It's debatable whether they believed in heaven or hell...maybe more current Judaism believes in heaven or hell? But they did believe that a messiah would reign in the kingdom of God and that it was inclusive for many who were ethical people (regardless of their beliefs). That is my understanding.

So yes, the New Covenant, taken to it's logical conclusion, is actually sending more people to hell, rather than saving them. Gee thanks, Jesus!


Boomeister

[yalla]

I'm in a hurry so this will be brief.
I think this is exactly the problem Paul confronted with his Corinthians[?] and he had to come up with the explanation that "those who have gone before us" will be saved.
A lot of quick thinking had to be done!

[Revolutionary]

I think this is exactly the problem Paul confronted with his Corinthians[?] and he had to come up with the explanation that "those who have gone before us" will be saved.Who? Everyone? Then we're unlucky to have lived after Jesus came? Odd.

[yalla]

Check out 1 Cor 15 for the section on Paul and the dead being raised.

[JamesBannon]

Who? Everyone? Then we're unlucky to have lived after Jesus came? Odd.
Jesus came to justify the elect (i.e. believers). Prior to Jesus certain people were members of the elect, Moses for example, and some were not, Saul for example. Calvinists believe that God's grace cannot be refused and that therefore the elect cannot fall from grace whereas Lutherans believe the opposite (double versus single predestination respectively). Complete bollocks of course!

[Dazza]

Someone was explaining to me yesterday about how Jesus' role was to die for our sins since, prior to his coming, everyone was imperfect and had no way to repent. It also occurred to me, however, that there really wasn't much point sending Jesus down to earth - surely he could just judge people as if he had sent Jesus down and saved the poor lad some suffering. What's the point of being omnipotent if you can't practise a little nepotism?

[Garnet]

As far as I know, heaven and hell are Christian concepts. Early Judaism taught that this life is what you get and when you die, you basically went to sleep with Abraham. As Toto said, you went to sheol, otherwise known as Abraham's bosom.

[Enda80]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_savj3.htm

Salvation by law:
Paul also held a second belief: that salvation had once been attainable through adherence to the system of Jewish laws in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). However, it only applied to people who had previously died. In Galatians 3:23-26, Paul writes: "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (NKJ) This implies that individuals could have previously been saved by strict adherence to the law. However, after Jesus came, salvation was by faith in Christ only.

Paul seems to have assumed that people everywhere had been exposed to the Gospel. In Romans 10:18 he wrote: "But I say, have they not heard [the Gospel]? Yes indeed: 'Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.'" (NKJ) He was wrong, of course. Christianity at the time of Paul's execution circa 65 CE had extended through much of the Roman Empire, but had not made significant inroads into the Far East or Northern Europe. The inhabitants of the Americas and of most of Africa had not heard the gospel message at all. There are countries in the world even today in which Christianity has made no significant inroads.