Dubya weighs in (favor) on ID

[Joe Meert]

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/12278405.htm

One sick puppy that Dubya

Cheers

Joe Meert

[RBH]

Looking for a theory of ID is about as fruitless an exercise as looking for those (non-existent) WMD in Iraq.

RBH

[leccy]

Ah, just coming on over here to post this

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0508020057aug02,1,3625116.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Details are scant at the moment but the intent ought to be pretty clear.

[Plognark]

Ah, just coming on over here to post this

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0508020057aug02,1,3625116.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Details are scant at the moment but the intent ought to be pretty clear.

Bugmenot (http://www.bugmenot.com/view.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chicagotribune.com%2F):

noaccount@mailinator.com
noaccount

[Frito]

This really is a bad day for science. At least when he said the jury was still out it was not an overt tool for the Discovery Institute to use to beat people over the head.

So looks like the republican party line is now against science. Good to know.

Aparrently air force one is no longer kept in the air because of air pressure, but instead angels carrying it. Maybe one of them will slip.

[manimal2878]

Seriously, this pisses me off so much.

Either Bush is totally pandering to the christian right or he is retarded, either way...

Damn it just makes me so mad.

[Evolutionist]

Bush compared the current debate to earlier disputes over "creationism," a related view that adheres more closely to biblical explanations. As governor of Texas, Bush said students should be exposed to both creationism and evolution.

On Monday the president said he favors the same approach for intelligent design "so people can understand what the debate is about."

The Kansas Board of Education is considering changes to encourage the teaching of intelligent design in Kansas schools, and Christian conservatives are pushing for similar changes in other school districts across the country.

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. " You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes."

Great- ID cheerleaders are already getting their pom poms out. *sigh*

[JoeNothin]

From the OP article[schools should teach] intelligent design "so people can understand what the debate is about." I totally agree that it would be appropriate to teach ID in order to inform students about the debate surrounding it. Perhaps in a social studies class... I mean, he can't actually be suggesting ID be taught in a biology class... that would just be crazy.

[Blackcat]

Why only the Christian view of creation?

[Neverhuman]

This is starting to look bad. I'm not an american but I have a feeling this shit is slowly starting to spread to Europe as well. I guess we're moving backwards in time, away from logos and back to the world of mythos.

[Godless Dave]

Either Bush is totally pandering to the christian right or he is retarded

Or both.

[Nero's Boot]

Why only the Christian view of creation?

I agree. The Japanese creation myth needs to be taught, too, just in case the Japanese were correct. Also, the Bon religion of Tibet needs air-time in American schools. And the Polynesian myths....and the Russian pagan myths....and the Celtic myths...and the myths of every single culture on the face of the planet.

--which would leave exactly five seconds and two brief sentences in a class on the Xtian myths NB

[Evolutionist]

"Teach the controversy" is a fine concept as long as the controversy is taught for what it is: a political and religious controversy suitable for discussion in a social studies or world religions class.

[Blackcat]

Either Bush is totally pandering to the christian right or he is retarded, either way...

He's chimpanzeeing, as per usual, no sign of any panda...

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[Jedi Mind Trick]

This is starting to look bad. I'm not an american but I have a feeling this shit is slowly starting to spread to Europe as well. I guess we're moving backwards in time, away from logos and back to the world of mythos.
I hope not... :(

[Aria]

Just look at the phrasing that DI idiot used. Scientists are skeptical that evolution can explain the origins of life.

WELL DUH

[IanC]

Scientists concede that evolution doesn't answer every question about the creation of life
Or any question, because thats not what evolution is about.

Excuse me a moment...
BWAAAAARRRRGHH

Ahem, sorry, just cant get over the relentless stupidity.

Ian

[ninewands]

Now for the mandatory post of any thread which quotes DI BS:

Quoth the article:
But advocates of intelligent design also claim support from scientists. The Discovery Institute, a conservative think tank in Seattle that's the leading proponent for intelligent design, said it has compiled a list of more than 400 scientists, including 70 biologists, who are skeptical about evolution.

"The fact is that a significant number of scientists are extremely skeptical that Darwinian evolution can explain the origins of life," John West, associate director of the organization's Center for Science and Culture, said in a prepared statement.
And what about more than 500 scientists, all of whom are named Steve (www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3541_project_steve_2_16_2003.asp)? Are they not a "significant number?" (larger than 400, I might add, and restricted to selection from about 1% of the population too) :huh:

Now that that task is out of the way ...

Is my memory failing me? Did Bush REALLY campaign on a platform that he intended making the United States the laughingstock of the Western World? Did people really vote for him based on such a platform? :confused:

Were it not for the fact that I believe the TRUE fundamental American values, those espoused by the Constitution, were worth fighting for, I'd try to come up with SOME way to get accepted for emigration to New Zealand ...

[Corwyn]

Where and how can we sign/draft a patition to send to the white house?

[Clivedurdle]

He's chimpanzeeing, as per usual, no sign of any panda...

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Oi Mods, animalist comment!! :) :)

Would reintroducing the discussion that homo ought to be reclassified within pan help?

[judanne]

Um...in defence of chimpanzees, I'm not aware of any evidence suggesting pan troglodytes or paniscus hold any of the irrational beliefs supported by the US president. I'm guessing they have a more down to earth view of their existence, if they care at all. The resemblence is only superficial.

[NottyImp]

Sadly, our deluded PM is little better on the issue. However, I doubt his probable succesor, Gordon Brown, would subscribe to such nonsense.

[Blackcat]

However, I doubt his probable succesor, Gordon Brown, would subscribe to such nonsense.

Once he works out how to tax religion, it'll be Creationism Science over here as well... pretty sure he needs another jag...

[Albion]

This really is a bad day for science. At least when he said the jury was still out it was not an overt tool for the Discovery Institute to use to beat people over the head.

So looks like the republican party line is now against science. Good to know.

Ah, but you see, evolution isn't science, it's atheistic philosophy. Surely you don't mean you hadn't heard that? ID is the REAL science because it allows all possibilities. :banghead:

[NottyImp]

... pretty sure he needs another jag...

I think you might be thinking of John "Two Jags" Prescott. Now if anything refutes evolution, he does.

[_Naturalist_]

This president of yours... how come enough people voted for him? You're lucky he can't stay in power forever.

His anti-science attitude is too much. If he wants to believe in old myths, I suppose that's ok as long as he understands that he's wrong and that he can't let his beliefs affect his duties as a leader. The president of the USA is commonly referred to as "the most powerful man in the world" which makes one wonder why people were unable to vote for someone big enough for the job. The thought of someone like that being the leader of the free world is becoming more and more ridiculous.

When he presented the Vision for Space Exploration, I was extremely positive. I thought that maybe he's not such an anti-science nut after all. But, apparently the funding to carry out this huge programme was and is way too little. NASA is forced to cancel other projects, for heaven's sake! Meanwhile, the military spending is increased.

Then there's the stem cell research. There will be such research in many other countries. Do the conservatives want USA to fall behind in this field as well?

It was a worrying sign when he said that the jury was still out regarding creationism vs. evolution, but I thought he said it so he wouldn't upset either camp. But now when he said schools should teach both theries, it's just too much. Didn't his dad pay enough so he could go to the finest schools? I'm sure he didn't have to go to some underfunded public school in some ignored area where the teachers are underpaid and underappricated and the books are decades old. So how could this be the result?

And even if we can agree to teach Christian creationism, one must wonder which version of it they should teach. A geocentric worldview with a young, flat Earth, with the fundament as the sky? Why not? No room for compromises when we're dealing with God's holy word, right? And if it really is God's word, then shouldn't we trust it to the letter, even if it contradicts reality? To hell with reality. Abolish science altogether. Of course, that won't work, since science will be necessary for the development of new weapons.

[Roland98]

His anti-science attitude is too much. If he wants to believe in old myths, I suppose that's ok as long as he understands that he's wrong and that he can't let his beliefs affect his duties as a leader. The president of the USA is commonly referred to as "the most powerful man in the world" which makes one wonder why people were unable to vote for someone big enough for the job. The thought of someone like that being the leader of the free world is becoming more and more ridiculous.

Most of the people in this country are sympathetic to his views. Being educated about science isn't something the "cool kids" do here.

When he presented the Vision for Space Exploration, I was extremely positive. I thought that maybe he's not such an anti-science nut after all. But, apparently the funding to carry out this huge programme was and is way too little. NASA is forced to cancel other projects, for heaven's sake! Meanwhile, the military spending is increased.

He gives lip-service to a few ideas that he knows cannot pan out. Gives him some talking points when people say he's "anti-science:" "but I increased this and that and proposed this..."

Then there's the stem cell research. There will be such research in many other countries. Do the conservatives want USA to fall behind in this field as well?

But the US will remain "moral" while all those evil other countries do cure those diseases with the dead babies. :rolleyes:

It was a worrying sign when he said that the jury was still out regarding creationism vs. evolution, but I thought he said it so he wouldn't upset either camp. But now when he says schools should teach both theries, it's just too much. Didn't his dad pay enough so he could go to the finest schools? I'm sure he didn't have to go to some underfunded public school in some ignored area where the teachers are underpaid and underappricated and the books are decades old. So how could this be the result?

Even at Harvard and Yale, conservatism and religious attitudes are present (recall that Yale was started by a group of ministers, and John Harvard also was a clergyman). Sure, people there generally value education and evidence more than the public in general, but it's not a shield from fundamentalism.

And even if we can agree to teach Christian creationism, one must wonder which version of it they should teach. A geocentric worldview with a young, flat Earth, with the fundament as the sky? Why not? No room for compromises when we're dealing with God's holy word, right? And if it really is God's word, then shouldn't we trust it to the letter, even if it contradicts reality? To hell with reality. Abolish science altogether. Of course, that won't work, since science will be necessary for the development of new weapons.

And that's why they pick and choose which science to support. Something that the American public can safely put some distance between a thing they use everyday (various technologies, medicines, etc.) and the science behind it are much easier targets than other areas where the science is "too obvious" to ignore. It's harder for people to see the relevance of "goo to you via the zoo" evolution in their everyday life than it is for them to see, say, the effect the germ theory of disease has.

[IamMoose]

Well .. he seems to be just saying that kids should be taught both as theories? That's better than advocating banning evolution and just teaching ID ;)

[Susan811]

Dumbya (or his many other aliases) and the word "intelligence" have absolutely no relationship to one another. They should never be used in the same sentence. The word simply coming out of his mouth voids his existence. :mad:

[Roland98]

Well .. he seems to be just saying that kids should be taught both as theories? That's better than advocating banning evolution and just teaching ID ;)

But few people have advocated that, either. And teaching both as "theories" when even the ID folks admit there's not really a "theory" and push teaching some made-up "controversy" is intellectually dishonest, as well as a huge disservice to students here.

[IamMoose]

yeah but I had always presumed he was a hard line young earther to be honest ;).

[toxic_dragon]

Seriously, this pisses me off so much.

Either Bush is totally pandering to the christian right or he is retarded, either way...

Damn it just makes me so mad.

I think it's both. :D

[Gooch's dad]

I seem to recall a lead science advisor to this White House saying a few months ago that ID isn't science at all. I'll google around a bit and see what I find.

Yeah, Panda's Thumb has an article with the quote, and a link to an earlier quote of Marburger's.Panda's Thumb blurb (http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/02/white_house_science_advisor_intelligent_design_not_scientific.html)

[toxic_dragon]

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. " You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes"

So what are we going to do? Use precious time in science classes to teach every alternative creation myth to students along with evolutionary theory so their knowledge will be fair and balanced?!

Oh wait, it'll just be the Genesis account, right? We've already determined all of the others are false. :rolleyes:

[Oikoman]

Sadly, our deluded PM is little better on the issue. However, I doubt his probable succesor, Gordon Brown, would subscribe to such nonsense.

Not what I want to hear... I'd hope the British Isles could remain free of this lunacy, but with Blair's "special relationship" with the Chimpster in Chief, I'm starting to wonder.

Is the ID movement making any headway in Europe? I haven't seen any sign of it in Norway, but then Norway largely takes its cue from the major European countries like UK and Germany.

[Oikoman]

Well .. he seems to be just saying that kids should be taught both as theories? That's better than advocating banning evolution and just teaching ID ;)

...give him time....

With the midterm elections coming up soon, and Bush starting to look shaky in the polls, expect more blatant pandering to religious wingnuts.

[woodheart]

The world is laughing at us. :worried:

[Monad]

Well .. he seems to be just saying that kids should be taught both as theories? That's better than advocating banning evolution and just teaching ID ;)

I suspect he (or more likely his advisors) realises he can't do that. They still need some people trained in real science or industry would grind to a halt and they'd have no-one to develop their bombs and bioweapons etc.

It's just the "cannon fodder" he doesn't mind drowning in ignorance because he knows they'll be more likely to fight the good fight for Jebus (and in turn vote for morons like him).

[woodheart]

I suspect he (or more likely his advisors) realises he can't do that. They still need some people trained in real science or industry would grind to a halt and they'd have no-one to develop their bombs and bioweapons etc.

It's just the "cannon fodder" he doesn't mind drowning in ignorance because he knows they'll be more likely to fight the good fight for Jebus (and in turn vote for morons like him).

Yeah, Keep the "connon fodder" err "The Sheep" dumb as hell. :banghead:

[NottyImp]

Not what I want to hear... I'd hope the British Isles could remain free of this lunacy, but with Blair's "special relationship" with the Chimpster in Chief, I'm starting to wonder.

Something about it here:

http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Emmanuel_Schools_Foundation

[Joe Meert]

Not what I want to hear... I'd hope the British Isles could remain free of this lunacy, but with Blair's "special relationship" with the Chimpster in Chief, I'm starting to wonder.

Is the ID movement making any headway in Europe? I haven't seen any sign of it in Norway, but then Norway largely takes its cue from the major European countries like UK and Germany.

JM: Ahh, it IS in Norway. You have Karsten Storetvedt with his strange ideas linked to creationism. It's there, it's just not prominent.

Cheers

Joe Meert

[Dorje]

Here's AU's response to Dumbya's idiocy:

http://www.au.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr006=p68s0k9r71.app7b&abbr=pr&page=NewsArticle&id=7497&security=1002&news_iv_ctrl=1241

I ask myself every day:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v386/Artorius/bush_dailymirror_dumb_people.jpg

[Coragyps]

And the New York Times weighs in - just reportage, but I'll bet the editorial might blister a bit.
Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/politics/03bush.html?hp&ex=1123041600&en=c1600f3f547f7dc7&ei=5094&partner=homepage) - you might want bugmenot.

[Albion]

Intelligent design has been discussed during Bible studies at the White House? Surely the ID people didn't forget to tell them that it's just science and nothing - NOTHING - to do with religion?

John Marburger's take on the president's comments was pathetic. I mean, OK, the president flat-out contradicted his science advisor on a matter, allegedly, of science, and Marburger can't do any better than say that obviously Bush was talking about the social side of science? Did Marburger perhaps miss the bit where Bush was talking about two theories as though they had equal scientific weight?

I wish these newspapers would come out and say that ID is religious, not just that its opponents claim that it's religious. It isn't just the opponents who've claimed that God is the only candidate, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where the funding for ID is coming from and put two and two together (or in this case two million and two million, more like).

I wonder if it was a typo or if Stephen Meyer really did say biblical origins. Aren't they supposed to be keeping quiet about the biblical part?

[Tubby Lardmore]

I.D. was a topic on Christian radio yesterday, though I heard no mention of the president. The host and his guest made the claim that public school curricula "dumb down" the classroom by not allowing discussion about evolution being incapable [or so the I.D. folks say] of explaining how certain biological features came to be, one of which was a rotating flagellum that is part of some microorganism.

[toxic_dragon]

That's it, I'm going to start advocating equal time for Greco-Roman creation stories and see how the ID advocates like it. And if they start moaning and bitching, I'm going to accuse them of a vast conspiracy of intellectual dishonesty! :devil3:

[KeithHarwood]

This president of yours... how come enough people voted for him?

There's a certain amount of doubt about this. It has been observed that in those areas where the voting machines had a paper audit trail the exit polls and the final result were more or less consistent. In those areas where there was no audit trail the final result supported Bush much more strongly than the exit polls. Bear in mind that the principal manufacturer of voting machines is a big supporter of Bush's party and the way the machines work is secret.

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

And the New York Times weighs in - just reportage, but I'll bet the editorial might blister a bit.
Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/politics/03bush.html?hp&ex=1123041600&en=c1600f3f547f7dc7&ei=5094&partner=homepage) - you might want bugmenot.
"It's what I've been pushing, it's what a lot of us have been pushing," said Richard Land, the president of the ethics and religious liberties commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. Dr. Land, who has close ties to the White House, said that evolution "is too often taught as fact," and that "if you're going to teach the Darwinian theory as evolution, teach it as theory. And then teach another theory that has the most support among scientists."
ummm.... isn't that the same thing?

SI

[espritch]

Well .. he seems to be just saying that kids should be taught both as theories? That's better than advocating banning evolution and just teaching ID

Not really. To teach ID as a valid theory, you pretty much have to ignore the basic principles of what science is. To teach this crap as science is to undermine the entire effort to teach science. And it won't satisfy the religious right. Soon they'll want to teach Young Earthism as a valid alternative the Big Bang and Prayer as a legitimate alternative to medicine. And that idiot Bush will probably be in favor of that too.

[woodheart]

Here's AU's response to Dumbya's idiocy:

http://www.au.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr006=p68s0k9r71.app7b&abbr=pr&page=NewsArticle&id=7497&security=1002&news_iv_ctrl=1241

I ask myself every day:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v386/Artorius/bush_dailymirror_dumb_people.jpg

I was wanting that picture to hang on my wall.



Added Lynn, “As a Yale graduate, President Bush should know basic science. Maybe he signed up for Biology 101 but didn’t report for duty.�

[_Naturalist_]

Most of the people in this country are sympathetic to his views. Being educated about science isn't something the "cool kids" do here.
And combine that with parents teaching their kids to believe...

The scientific literacy is bad in Europe too, I think, and that's very dangerous as many will not be prepared when they encounter astrology, new age, religion and creationism and such things.

But the US will remain "moral" while all those evil other countries do cure those diseases with the dead babies.
I was under the impression they used embryos so small they were nothing else than tiny lumps of cells. Some of them would be discarded anyway. So there's nothing wrong in getting rid of them, but it is wrong to use them for medical research?

And that's why they pick and choose which science to support. Something that the American public can safely put some distance between a thing they use everyday (various technologies, medicines, etc.) and the science behind it are much easier targets than other areas where the science is "too obvious" to ignore. It's harder for people to see the relevance of "goo to you via the zoo" evolution in their everyday life than it is for them to see, say, the effect the germ theory of disease has.
People seem to think they can disregard science if they just plain don't like it. Often they don't like it when it clash with dearly held beliefs. I hope that since most people no longer believe in a flat Earth, or the geocentric model of the solar system, they will also eventually see how science is making Genesis becoming more and more unreliable. I just wished it wouldn't be such an incredibly slow process.

Bush endorsed ID this time, but I'm convinced that he wants his favourite Christian myths to be taught in schools, and that he's going through ID to achieve this goal.

[_Naturalist_]

There's a certain amount of doubt about this. It has been observed that in those areas where the voting machines had a paper audit trail the exit polls and the final result were more or less consistent. In those areas where there was no audit trail the final result supported Bush much more strongly than the exit polls. Bear in mind that the principal manufacturer of voting machines is a big supporter of Bush's party and the way the machines work is secret.
And no one is investigating this?

[RBH]

And no one is investigating this?One of the affected states is Ohio. Every elected state official in Ohio is Republican.

RBH

[_Naturalist_]

So what are we going to do? Use precious time in science classes to teach every alternative creation myth to students along with evolutionary theory so their knowledge will be fair and balanced?!
And of course all the potential creation myths that we haven't thought of yet. Teachers should be allowed to make up a few new ones to cover more possibilities.

[Quetzalcoatl]

The world is laughing at us. :worried:

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

[IamMoose]

Well the world is laughing yeah but we're also scared and kinda sad. It's very, very odd to see a country that is effectively running the world indicating such a, beg pardon, peasant mentality.

[Dr_Paine]

And the New York Times weighs in - just reportage, but I'll bet the editorial might blister a bit.
Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/politics/03bush.html?hp&ex=1123041600&en=c1600f3f547f7dc7&ei=5094&partner=homepage) - you might want bugmenot.

From Stephen Meyer of the Discovery Institute (ID group) as quoted in the New York Times article:
We interpret this as the president using his bully pulpit to support freedom of inquiry and free speech about the issue of biblical origins,

Do you suppose he meant “biological� origins; is this a Freudian slip? :huh:

Intelligent Design advocates have been cleverly careful to disassociate their approach from “biblical� dogma, on the surface. :sneaky:

[Blackcat]

Intelligent Design advocates have been cleverly careful to disassociate their approach from “biblical� dogma, on the surface. :sneaky:

From the link in the OP:

In a wide-ranging question-and-answer session with a small group of reporters, Bush essentially endorsed efforts by Christian conservatives to give intelligent design equal standing with the theory of evolution in the nation's schools.

Now, the ID movement might be disassociating their terminology from anything bible-related, but it seems to be common knowledge that the IDers themselves are xian. It doesn't take much of an intuitive leap to spot the motive underneath it all.

Now, I think this move is actually a step forward. Evolution, as a theory, has spent it's existence in a minefield of evidence, any single piece of which could blow up and show the theory to be wrong. And it's survived so far. ID hasn't had that 'test of time'. The first instance of a teacher bringing out a religious document to cite support for ID in the classroom should prove very interesting.

[Richard Forrest]

Looking for a theory of ID is about as fruitless an exercise as looking for those (non-existent) WMD in Iraq.

RBH

Nonsense!
There was some sense in looking for WMDs in Iraq - after all, the US sold a load of them to Sadam.
Looking for a theory of ID is as fruitless as looking for a dog which has given birth to a delightful shade of purple.

Richard Forrest

[Atheos]

I know this may sound naieve but I sent an email to the president to tell him how I feel about this issue.

... I strongly disagree with the president's recent statement regarding Intelligent Design.

Intelligent Design is not a science. It is founded on ignorance, superstition and misrepresentation of the well-supported evolutionary process. Religious doctrine (and Intelligent Design is a religious doctrine, not a scientifically valid theory) belongs in the churches, not in public schools. The President of the United States should be more responsible than to use his position to promote his religious beliefs.

...Send him an email (comments@whitehouse.gov). No, he's not going to read it, but you can bet that someone there is keeping count of how many letters of support he gets for this or that statement and how many disagree.

http://home.comcast.net/~iiatheos/Atheos-Sig.gif

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

Send him an email (comments@whitehouse.gov). No, he's not going to read it, but you can bet that someone there is keeping count of how many letters of support he gets for this or that statement and how many disagree.

Not to be too cynical, but every member of this board could send him 10 emails each, and the email will still probably be 100 to 1 in favor of his position. The Xtian right is very good at mobilizing "groundswell responses". :(

SI

[Don Alhambra]

There's a certain amount of doubt about this. It has been observed that in those areas where the voting machines had a paper audit trail the exit polls and the final result were more or less consistent. In those areas where there was no audit trail the final result supported Bush much more strongly than the exit polls. Bear in mind that the principal manufacturer of voting machines is a big supporter of Bush's party and the way the machines work is secret.
Bear in mind that the difference between the final results and exit polls can be explained by something called differential non-response. Basically, Bush voters were less likely to be polled than Kerry voters due to several factors: 1) the people doing the exit polls were more likely to (consciously or unconsciously) target Kerry voters; 2) the Bush voters were less likely to consent to be sampled by the exit pollers.

More about this is available from dailykos (http://www.dailykos.com/); look here (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/4/29/161938/921) for "Febble's Fancy Function" (Febble is a friend of mine and works in my department. :))

However: issues remain over the disenfranchising of legitimate voters, the tactics used by the Republican party in phoning people up and telling them that they had to vote for them when this was not the case, and of course the voting machines.

[Roland98]

And combine that with parents teaching their kids to believe...

The scientific literacy is bad in Europe too, I think, and that's very dangerous as many will not be prepared when they encounter astrology, new age, religion and creationism and such things.

Or any area where they could use a healthy dose of skepticism...for instance, I don't know how bad medical scams are over there, but over here, they're terrible and cost millions (billions?) of dollars per year. If people used a bit more critical thinking and research in all aspects of their everyday life, a lot of this could be avoided.

I was under the impression they used embryos so small they were nothing else than tiny lumps of cells. Some of them would be discarded anyway. So there's nothing wrong in getting rid of them, but it is wrong to use them for medical research?

Indeed--and I'm definitely in favor of stem cell research. But many of the ardent pro-lifers consider them "babies" from conceptionm with equal rights to a newborn.

People seem to think they can disregard science if they just plain don't like it. Often they don't like it when it clash with dearly held beliefs. I hope that since most people no longer believe in a flat Earth, or the geocentric model of the solar system, they will also eventually see how science is making Genesis becoming more and more unreliable. I just wished it wouldn't be such an incredibly slow process.

Me too.

Bush endorsed ID this time, but I'm convinced that he wants his favourite Christian myths to be taught in schools, and that he's going through ID to achieve this goal.

I don't know how much is him and how much is pandering to the public. Either way, I'm not optimistic.

[maddog]

As governor of Texas, Bush said students should be exposed to both creationism and evolution.

On Monday the president said he favors the same approach for intelligent design "so people can understand what the debate is about."

[ . . . ]

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. " You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes."
Oh, excellent!

This means, of course, that students will now be taught not only about abstinence to prevent unwanted pregnancy, but also about condoms and other methods of birth control. We want everyone to understand what the debate is about.

Also, students will now be shown positive examples of homosexuality as well as of heterosexuality. People ought to be exposed to different ideas, yes.

Etc.
#1143

[Albion]

Oh, you're looking for consistency, are you? :rolling:

[Neverhuman]

Not what I want to hear... I'd hope the British Isles could remain free of this lunacy, but with Blair's "special relationship" with the Chimpster in Chief, I'm starting to wonder.

Is the ID movement making any headway in Europe? I haven't seen any sign of it in Norway, but then Norway largely takes its cue from the major European countries like UK and Germany.


Well, as you might have noticed, political debates between norwegian top politicians have been held at two of the larger christian sects during the last month(Levende Ord and another one that I can't remember the name of), so the politicians seems to regard the christian community as valuable voters, and surely as a rising minority as well.
The commercial, evangelical lunacy is sadly on the the rise in this country as well, while Asia is accelerating away from us and the rest of the western world. With KrF and fucking Kjell Magne Bondevik in charge stem cell research and other satanic activities that "hurt Dog's creation" will be held back. Meanwhile we can send more soldiers to Iraq and other evil countries, to kill some more innocent heathens on the command of old Georgie-boy and Jebus Christ. It's good moral behaviour you know.

[CX]

Seriously, this pisses me off so much.

Either Bush is totally pandering to the christian right or he is retarded, either way...

Damn it just makes me so mad.

Correction:

"Bush is totally pandering to the christian right <AND> he is retarded"

[CX]

Here's AU's response to Dumbya's idiocy:

http://www.au.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr006=p68s0k9r71.app7b&abbr=pr&page=NewsArticle&id=7497&security=1002&news_iv_ctrl=1241

I ask myself every day:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v386/Artorius/bush_dailymirror_dumb_people.jpg

Look at it this way. There are roughly 125 million people in the U.S. with below average intelligence. Only 1/2 of them voted.

[toxic_dragon]

Oh, excellent!

This means, of course, that students will now be taught not only about abstinence to prevent unwanted pregnancy, but also about condoms and other methods of birth control. We want everyone to understand what the debate is about.

Also, students will now be shown positive examples of homosexuality as well as of heterosexuality. People ought to be exposed to different ideas, yes.

Etc.
#1143

Damn right! :thumbs:

[jonesg]

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/12278405.htm

One sick puppy that Dubya

Cheers

Joe Meert

I like dubya, I believe in some sort of intelligent design, something beneath all physics but confusing children isn't the place to start.
He's mistaken in all this.

But its nice to have someone consistent rather than a President who takes a poll first then designs his character to fit. At least you know what to expect.

[jonesg]

Correction:

"Bush is totally pandering to the christian right <AND> he is retarded"

It would be true if he were up for re-election.
Therefore he's being consistent, which drives liberals potty.

[Nice Squirrel]

Pregnancy is a myth. You cannot get it from sex, only from God hating you.

ETA: I hve not idea why I posted that.

[Oikoman]

I like dubya, I believe in some sort of intelligent design, something beneath all physics but confusing children isn't the place to start.
He's mistaken in all this.

But its nice to have someone consistent rather than a President who takes a poll first then designs his character to fit. At least you know what to expect.


Consistancy is the hobgoblin of little minds... and they don't get much littler than Bush. :rolling:

[Oikoman]

Pregnancy is a myth. You cannot get it from sex, only from God hating you.

ETA: I hve not idea why I posted that.


Well, in Christian America, pregnancy isn't a myth... you should only get pregnant if your a mytheth.

:thumbs:

[CX]

It would be true if he were up for re-election.
Therefore he's being consistent, which drives liberals potty.

There are motivations for pandering besides reelection. I do however agree that he's consistent, but I don't think that's a good thing. And it doesn't just drive liberals "potty". I'm not a liberal and Bush drives me stark raving mad.

[judanne]

Meh, call me a cynic, but Bush is probably consistent because his buddy Karl took a poll and decided that he should appear consistent at all cost to please voters in these politically uncertain times. What, do republicans not use polling data? Yeah right. I don't know where I'd place myself politically these days - such a big decision, so little to choose from, but no matter where it is GWB still looks like an imbecile to me. I'm pretty sure there are at least a few theocrat/former oil executive types waiting to follow in Georgie boy's footsteps. Senator Frist maybe? Bush does still have a vested ideological interest in pandering to the religious right.

[badger3k]

Meh, call me a cynic, but Bush is probably consistent because his buddy Karl took a poll and decided that he should appear consistent at all cost to please voters in these politically uncertain times. What, do republicans not use polling data? Yeah right. I don't know where I'd place myself politically these days - such a big decision, so little to choose from, but no matter where it is GWB still looks like an imbecile to me. I'm pretty sure there are at least a few theocrat/former oil executive types waiting to follow in Georgie boy's footsteps. Senator Frist maybe? Bush does still have a vested ideological interest in pandering to the religious right.

Well, "Dr" Bill "I can make a medical diagnosis from a 5-minute video clip" Frist distanced himself from the theocrats with his stem cell stance, but I'd hardly call him a friend of science. So far, the names tossed up for the next election (on both sides) do not fill me with confidence either.

[Happy Wonderer]

Bush consistant? More of a fodder for PD, but he has flip flopped on almost every major issue. Last week it turned out that we were having one-on-one talks with North Korea contrary to what he said we would do during the debates. The "war on terror" has been reduced to "struggle against terrorism" where terrorism is now supposed to be a fact of life that we face like crime, and we have to work together with other nations to stop the political forces that cause it. This is a reasonable position, but he lambasted Kerry for exactly that last November! Older flip-flops here (http://www.nomorebush.premiumfinder.com/GeorgeW-Bush-Flip-Flops.php) or here (http://www.50bushflipflops.com/Lecture_Outline/a1.html).



/derail

[RBH]

Yup, /derail. Thanks!

RBH
E/C Mod

[Cipher Girl]

Bush compared the current debate to earlier disputes over "creationism," a related view that adheres more closely to biblical explanations. As governor of Texas, Bush said students should be exposed to both creationism and evolution.
I wonder if this is a freudian slip. I mean it's suppose to be Intelligent Design not creationism. :down: I guess he has not been clued in by the Discovery Institute yet. :Cheeky:

[toxic_dragon]

And of course all the potential creation myths that we haven't thought of yet. Teachers should be allowed to make up a few new ones to cover more possibilities.

Yeah, science with its pesky rules and methodology obviously cramps any attempt at an honest investigation of nature. When you incorporate faith-based explanations, you can cover so much more ground. :banghead:

[Lil' Jerry Seinfeld]

But its nice to have someone consistent rather than a President who takes a poll first then designs his character to fit. At least you know what to expect.

Consistent like during his first election campaign when he said he wasn't gonna use the military for nation building and policing the world? Oh wait...

[Lil' Jerry Seinfeld]

But its nice to have someone consistent rather than a President who takes a poll first then designs his character to fit. At least you know what to expect.

Consistent? You mean like during his first election when he said he wasn't gonna use the military for nation building and policing the world? Oh wait... I'm eagerly awaiting your apologetic on why this flip-flop really isn't one.

It would be true if he were up for re-election.
Therefore he's being consistent, which drives liberals potty.

Really? Cause I'm not a liberal and the bullshit he is spewing makes me pretty pissed too.

[Sven]

Really? Cause I'm not a liberal and the bullshit he is spewing makes me pretty pissed too.
You don't understand... everyone criticising Bush is automatically a liberal (for some people).

[Oikoman]

Well, as you might have noticed, political debates between norwegian top politicians have been held at two of the larger christian sects during the last month(Levende Ord and another one that I can't remember the name of), so the politicians seems to regard the christian community as valuable voters, and surely as a rising minority as well.
The commercial, evangelical lunacy is sadly on the the rise in this country as well, while Asia is accelerating away from us and the rest of the western world. With KrF and fucking Kjell Magne Bondevik in charge stem cell research and other satanic activities that "hurt Dog's creation" will be held back. Meanwhile we can send more soldiers to Iraq and other evil countries, to kill some more innocent heathens on the command of old Georgie-boy and Jebus Christ. It's good moral behaviour you know.

My norwegian isn't good enough to pick up nuances in the political winds, but my impression was that Bondevik and the KrF were mainly focusing on annoying social controls (liquor laws, etc.) and not really pushing for a greater role of the church in the states business. Since I don't get news from outside of Bergen and Oslo, however, there could be raving fundamentalists massing in the fjords and I wouldn't hear about it.

How strong is the religious right movement here, and are they really comparable to the americans?

[Oikoman]

You don't understand... everyone criticising Bush is automatically a liberal (for some people).

...and a terrorist. Why do all of you hate America? :Cheeky:

[MrDarwin]

There was an interesting interview with Rick Santorum this morning on NPR. He was asked specifically about Bush's comments about ID and gave a more "nuanced" answer than Bush that showed that he's at least been listening to the ID side (don't teach ID in the science classroom, but do teach the "problems" with evolution) whereas Bush is obviously uninformed by either side of the issue.

[Oolon Colluphid]

You don't understand... everyone criticising Bush is automatically a liberal (for some people).
When compared to Atilla the Hun, everyone's a liberal. :huh: :D

[Refused]

Did anyone catch Jay Leno's monologue last night? I just happened to turn on the TV in the bedroom as he was saying (and I paraphrase):

"George Bush now supports teaching ID in schools. For those of you who don't know, ID teaches that life is too complex to have come from natural processes alone. But then again, Bush thinks the same thing about Algebra."

It was better said than I typed. Nice one, Jay.

- Refused

[Neverhuman]

My norwegian isn't good enough to pick up nuances in the political winds, but my impression was that Bondevik and the KrF were mainly focusing on annoying social controls (liquor laws, etc.) and not really pushing for a greater role of the church in the states business. Since I don't get news from outside of Bergen and Oslo, however, there could be raving fundamentalists massing in the fjords and I wouldn't hear about it.

Oops, sorry. I thought you were a native norwegian like I am. Well, anyway, I guess KrF is more concerned about alcohol policies at the moment, but they are also against all kinds of bio-tech, and there's a lot of ignorance about such technology among members of the other parties as well. Norway has really poor school politics, and it wouldn't surprise me if american creationist influences are under way, to make science- and math-teaching even worse than it already is.


How strong is the religious right movement here, and are they really comparable to the americans?

I wouldn't say they are comparable to the americans at the moment. There's another kind of democracy here, with far more political parties that join in cooperative governments, despite major differences among the individual parties. There are perhaps not any clear signs of a rising religious movement right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if i saw it anytime soon.

[Supersonic 77]

I'm from Canada, and the only place I ever really hear of "ID" is on the internet, or in a news story or two about Kansas. It's never debated on TV or the newspapers, and there's no discussion of teaching "alternative theories" in schools. I think the general public would become outraged. Creationism in general almost has no existence where I live and I really don't think it will ever be a threat in most western countries. A right-wing politician here became a laughingstock a few years back when it came out that he believed that "Adam walked with the dinosaurs 6000 years ago" and that he used to teach this belief in a private school. He's still in the party but is no longer party leader. His replacement and current Leader of the Opposition, who is pretty right-wing and christian-oriented, has publicly distanced himself from that belief, and has stated that he believes in evolution.
I read somewhere in another thread the idea that if the Chinese went to the moon, it would start a scientific space race and americans would become interested in science again. Something like this, or another scenario, will probably happen and american scientific interest will grow rapidly again. Fear not rational americans!

[Clutch]

I'm from Canada, and the only place I've ever really heard of "ID" is on the internet, or in a news story or two about Kansas. It's never in the papers and there's no discussion of teaching creationism in schools. I think the general public would become outraged.

Supersonic77,

Pro-ID and anti-science editorials have appeared in the National Post over past years, and both opinion columns and letters to the editor surface periodically in the newspaper in my SW Ont city.

It's here, all right. And it wasn't the general public so much as a (relatively) responsible news media that pilloried Stockwell Day for his creationist views. The political forces that supported him took notice of the fact. Enormous pressure has since been brought to bear on (especially) the CBC to prevent it from focusing on any religiously-inflected views of a rightwing candidate. Canada is in a better situation than the USA as far as creationist/ID silliness, but that's not for lack of effort of some well-funded, organized, and motivated people. I advise against growing complacent.

[Supersonic 77]

Supersonic77,

Pro-ID and anti-science editorials have appeared in the National Post over past years, and both opinion columns and letters to the editor surface periodically in the newspaper in my SW Ont city.

It's here, all right. And it wasn't the general public so much as a (relatively) responsible news media that pilloried Stockwell Day for his creationist views. The political forces that supported him took notice of the fact. Enormous pressure has since been brought to bear on (especially) the CBC to prevent it from focusing on any religiously-inflected views of a rightwing candidate. Canada is in a better situation than the USA as far as creationist/ID silliness, but that's not for lack of effort of some well-funded, organized, and motivated people. I advise against growing complacent.
I think it's important to keep in mind that there are much lower levels of religiosity here than in the states, and our society is becoming increasingly secular. I don't think that's going to change any time soon.
As far as letters go, I was just speaking from my experience,--I've read a lot of letters to the editor in the past few years, mainly because I've been interested in public opinion on gay marriage--that doesn't mean there aren't ID/creation things I haven't seen, but I think the infrequency of them is quite telling. However a few letters published in a newspaper periodically does not mean there is a movement ready to do battle with science. If a major battle ever arose I'm confident it would be settled even faster than the gay marriage issue. I'm fairly certain the general public couldn't be arsed with creationism. haha, maybe I am overly complacent, I don't know. You're correct though, complete complacency on this is inadvisable. Which is why the subject matter interests me. :cool: Here's to hoping we never have to deal with this problem.

[doc_simon]

Round-up of what the papers say:linky to Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/science/story/0,12996,1542826,00.html)