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Hooboy !!
August 2, 2005, 01:39 PM
A funny quote, wish I could remember who said it...

An athesit speaking to a theist "We are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you."

The foundation of a theists point of view is belief. The foundation of an atheists point of view is also... belief.

In my lifetime, I have been both a theist and an atheist. The transition from one to the other was not fast, nor was it clear cut. I remember a time in my life when the supernatural was a real to me as the every other natural thing around me that I could sense. I knew that there were demons lurking about, ready to invade my consciousness and influence my actions. I knew that God was sitting in heaven watching me, observing how I responded to temptations and trials. I knew that at some point in the existence of my soul that God would take the sum of those observations and judge me. I knew that at that moment of judgement that my existence would change in profound ways, ways that I could not even imagine, though I can imagine some pretty horrible or conversely wondeful things. I knew that if I wanted to avoid pain on a level that I could not even imagine that I had to follow the instructions of God's servants here on earth. I knew all of these things and well as I knew that the sun would rise.

That is the thing about "knowing" though. You can never really know. That is another topic.

It all boils down to what we "know" and how that knowledge translates into thought and action.

My grandfather taught me a valuable but simple lesson. "There is more than one way to skin a cat."

In other words, there are many paths to reach the "right" conclusion or destination. Some longer, some shorter. Some difficult, some easy. Some featureless and monotonous, some beautiful and entertaining. What is this destination though? Answer: We all die.

The theist has a belief that when we die that this is not the end at all, but rather a new beginning. An opportunity for justice, love and true happiness. They use this opportunity as a kind of carrot on the end of stick, to help them find their way to this final destination. It may or may not be "real". It really isn't all that important. It just a carrot on the end of a stick to help them find their way to that destination. Is it a "good" path? Is it the "right" path? The theist can answer these questions with absolute certainty. This is where the difference comes in.

An atheist does not believe that death is an opportunity for a new beginning. They have accepted the inevitability of their own ending and come to terms with it, even of they do continue to fear and loathe it. They are then absent the promise of something better to entice them onto a certain path that leads them to this destination. The thing is though... all paths lead to the same destination. So, no matter what an atheist does, no matter what guidance or lack of guidance they have, they will still end up in the exact same place as the theist. Dead. Dead is dead. There are no shades of gray. There is no relativism. There is no subjectivism. Just dead. As in... not living.

Not living. But, what is "living"? Being "alive", as in breathing, eating, sleeping, shitting? That is one form of being alive. There are many forms, ranging from simple single celled creatures, to immense fungi, to complex creatures such as the human being. A zygote is alive. Terri Shaivo was alive. A fern is alive. The salmonella on your counter top after preparing the chicken you had for dinner last night is... alive.

The difference between an atheist and a theist then boils down to just one concept up to the point of death. How we define and accept the concept of "living". For the theist, it is written down for them so that they can learn from it and apply it. For the atheist... it is a great unknown, to be discovered as we live our lives. That is the difference.

Matt the Medic
August 2, 2005, 01:41 PM
Stephen Roberts:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Good post. :thumbs:

Plognark
August 2, 2005, 01:45 PM
I agree, good post. It sums up similar thoughts of mine I wish I could have expressed as well as you have. :thumbs:

braces_for_impact
August 2, 2005, 01:51 PM
I don't know, it seems to me that a lot of theists wouldn't agree with your perspective. To many of them, atheists and theists don't have the same destination. Sure they go through death, but then they pass on to either heaven or hell. Sure they don't breathe, eat, sleep, shit. But their consciousness continues, and that's enough.

I appreciate your point that it's merely two different paths to the same destination, and my perspective agrees with yours on that idea. It seems to me though, that how one views death can intrinsically effect how they live life.

JerryM
August 2, 2005, 02:16 PM
Good points.

But I think there is another fundamental difference that doesn't necessarily deal with issues of death, at least not directly.

Theists believe (though with much variation) that there is some force, entity, or power beyond the observable laws of nature that can influence events in the natural world. And this force (or forces) generally has intelligence and purpose. Atheists do not accept that any such non-natural entity exists, nor will it affect events in the natural world.

(That's pretty much just a definition of the terms, but I think it is the most important difference.)

Hooboy !!
August 2, 2005, 02:36 PM
A couple of thoughts on your replies...

As I re-read my post I come to the realization that not all theists believe that they will die. Many Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they will not die at all. That they will live through Armegeddon. I suppose that there are a few religions that have similar beliefs. My other thread on living forever goes into this in more detail. For this thread though, the destination remains the same. Jehovah's Witnesses (for example) have simply replaced death with something supernaturally horrific that they physically survive.

Also...

I was probably not very clear on the concept of the "path". A theist believes that the path does not end at death and that it continues on. And even though there are many other paths, only one leads to salvation and all others lead to damnation. But, no one I have ever encountered has been willing to say that they know what life will be like on "the other side". They admit that it is pure speculation. I suppose that is not always true, but I would say that is true for all but the disingenuous theist. Nor can they say with any degree of certainty, which path is the one to salvation. Those that simply accept Jesus as their savior have all but given up on the path concept entirely and choose instead to give their path selection over to others or to default. Chaos in essence.

Regardless, my original premise remains. It is simply a matter of belief and how it influences thought and action.

seebs
August 2, 2005, 03:22 PM
FWIW, I believe (depending on terminology) either that there are many "good" paths, or that we may experience that path many different ways. I regard life largely as a great unknown, but a very appealing one. I think I'm closer to what you describe as the atheist viewpoint.

Either way, though, an excellent piece, I rather like it.

Magus55
August 2, 2005, 04:15 PM
I think that quote is a bit off. Even if an atheist believes in one less god than a theist, atheism means not believing in any god. Even though a theist only believes in one more god than an atheist, by definition they are no longer atheist. That quote is somewhat contradictory. If we were both atheists, I wouldn't believe in even one more god than you.

Jedi Mind Trick
August 2, 2005, 04:46 PM
Excellent Post. :thumbs:

Worldtraveller
August 2, 2005, 04:58 PM
Magus, you completely miss the point while nitpicking the exact usage of the word.

You are an atheist, I'm guessing, WRT Zues, Odin, Ra, Vishnu, and thousands of other gods, no? Or do you believe they exist, and are just 'false gods'...whatever that means?

Good post Hooboy!

Cheers,
Lane

Magus55
August 2, 2005, 05:17 PM
Magus, you completely miss the point while nitpicking the exact usage of the word.

You are an atheist, I'm guessing, WRT Zues, Odin, Ra, Vishnu, and thousands of other gods, no? Or do you believe they exist, and are just 'false gods'...whatever that means?

Good post Hooboy!

Cheers,
LaneNo i'm not an atheist. I'm just a monotheist. I see a distinction between the two. You apparently don't. I see atheist as a very general term. If you are an atheist, you believe in no god. Period. If you believe in any form of a god, you are a theist. If you believe in one god, but not other versions, you are a monotheist. If you believe in a variety of gods, you are a polytheist.

Matt the Medic
August 2, 2005, 05:22 PM
Arguing over the semantics of using 'atheist' in the quote is missing the point entirely.

Hooboy !!
August 2, 2005, 06:52 PM
Arguing over the semantics of using 'atheist' in the quote is missing the point entirely.
LOL

But, I am bored and welcome any discussion that is even remotely related to my post...

Hooboy !!
August 2, 2005, 07:05 PM
I think that quote is a bit off. Even if an atheist believes in one less god than a theist, atheism means not believing in any god. Even though a theist only believes in one more god than an atheist, by definition they are no longer atheist. That quote is somewhat contradictory. If we were both atheists, I wouldn't believe in even one more god than you.
The quote is not "off".

Do you believe Buddha was a god? (rhetorical).

I assume your answer to be "No.". Or in other words, you do not believe that Buddha was a god, or you are absent the belief that Buddha was a god. Ergo, you are an atheist, in that context.

Atheism is simply not believing that there is a God or gods. That is all.

A theist simply believes in a God or gods. That is all.

But (I am assuming again) since you believe that only the God of the bible is real, then this means that you do not believe the hundreds or thousands of other Gods or gods exist that other people believe in, which are just as real to them as your is to you.

To put things into perspective then...

You assert that those other Gods and gods do not exist.

Based on what? (rhetorical)

Answer: Belief.

I am only slightly different than you. I just don't believe in one more God than you. We both were able to shed all of the other beliefs as not being useful or determined to be false. I just took it one step further is all and finished the journey.

Yahzi
August 2, 2005, 10:12 PM
Even if an atheist believes in one less god than a theist, atheism means not believing in any god.
But the theists of other stripes disbelieve in your god just as hard as we do. The point remains. The quote is not trying to redefine atheism; it is pointing out that whatever god you beleive in, the vast majority of humanity does not.