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Hooboy !!
August 2, 2005, 02:19 PM
I had a Jehovah's Witness come to my door some months ago, wanting to discuss an article in the Watchtower. On the front was the familiar image of a family frolicking in a garden like setting. In it were lions and sheep, happily coexisting. One person's point of view of "heaven" or "paradise" or "nirvana"... whatever lable you want to put on it. The young lady then asked me "Wouldn't you want to live forever in an earthly paradise?" I paused for about 3 seconds before I said "No."

Her puzzled expression was priceless. Recalling my own state of mind at about that same age, I could easily predict what was going on in side her mind...

Is he serious? Who in their right mind wouldn't want to live in a paradise? I mean, just look at that picture. Its awesome. No way he is serious.

The realization sets in that I am just pulling her chain, says "Well, have a nice day." and moves on to the next house. Too bad. She missed a real opportunity there. Oh well.

I grew up believing that at some point in my existence, that the pain and suffering that defines my corporeal existence was transitory, that at some point it would be over with and that things would be better. Not just better... perfect. But then, I had an epiphany. I have no way of even comprehending the concept of "forever".

I have had a few what I call epiphanies in my life. The word has a strong connotation and some would argue they were not epiphanies at all, but hey... its my story. Some come hard and fast and some come on kind of slow. This one was of the latter variety. It began in high school algebra class while I was studying the parabola. I was introduced to the concept of "forever" in a while new way. The line would approach, but never quite reach this limit. Ever? Ever. The space between would get incredibly small, so small that it cannot be represented meaningfully with a number, but it would always be a space between.

Fuck. That sounded an awful lot like God.

The epiphany ended one day when I made a model of a one dimensional object. It is simple really. Cut a strip of paper about an inch wide and 11 inches long. Twist it once and paste the ends together. Now, trace a line on one side. Guess what happens... there is only one side. It was a stupid illusion of course, but it hammered it home for me. It is impossible to fathom the concept of "forever", just as it is impossible to "see" a one dimensional object. It can only be modeled and metaphorically represented.

So asking me if I wanted to live forever is equivalent to asking me, can you see this one dimensional object. Of course I can't, duh! How is it possible then to want something that you cannot even begin to comprehend? I can want to eat a hamburger or watch a little TV, but it is impossible to want to live forever. Well, absurd at the very least.

The promise of life in heaven or on a paradise eath forever is meaningless to me. It therefore has no value. Why then do so many people cling on to the concept so tenaciously?

I think the answer to this question lies in the cruel conundrum of human consciousness. We are self-aware and capable of predicting the future based upon observations we make. Some predictions are more, some less reliable. One prediction though that is invariably accurate is that... we die. We are therefore not only aware of our existence, but we are also aware of our non-existence. As a living creature, this causes us a tremendous amount of suffering, because we... like every thing... seek to avoid that non-existence at all costs, short of self-sacrifice. There are amazing examples of this self-preservation at work. A recent one is a young man that sawed his own arm off with a pocket knife. Is it any wonder then that the cognitive dissonance created by our ability to know our own non-existence, results in the fabrication of another, entirely contrary ending where we do not die? I don't think so. In fact, I think it is perfectly natural.

So, when that look of puzzlement washed over her face... instead of feeling happy that I had struck a blow for atheism... I felt sorry for her. I had hoped she would have asked "Why not?" and then I could have explained it to her... gently of course. I wasn't wanting to crush her entire world view. I just wanted to plant a seed. All I wanted was for her to start thinking for herself for a change and confront the fear that was being used to manipulate her.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."

I sighed as she walked away and I wonder to this day if she ever thought any more about what I said in that simple, one word response.

BlessNot
August 2, 2005, 02:32 PM
I had a Jehovah's Witness come to my door some months ago, wanting to discuss an article in the Watchtower. On the front was the familiar image of a family frolicking in a garden like .

The best way to get rid of these strange people is to answer your door naked. It is sure to work every time.

Do I want to live forever?

I think I'd like a long, healthy and prosperous life but to live forever without end I think is unrealistic and would be extremely boring and eventually only lead to eternal madness. In short it would be another form of hell.

King Rat
August 2, 2005, 02:35 PM
Sure, I could kill myself at any time if I got tired of living.

jfryejr
August 2, 2005, 02:36 PM
The best way to get rid of these strange people is to answer your door naked. It is sure to work every time. Of all I've considered to doing to those who knock at my door (salespeople included), I think this would certainly be the funniest. I wonder if I'll ever have the nerve to try it?

Hooboy !!
August 2, 2005, 02:38 PM
Sure, I could kill myself at any time if I got tired of living.
That would not be "forever" then.

King Rat
August 2, 2005, 02:42 PM
That would not be "forever" then.

You mean that I am somehow unable to kill myself? Sure, I'll take that hypothetical too. My life has been pretty great despite some radical ups and downs. I see no reason that I couldn't handle eternity. Heat Death poses a problem though. ;)

judanne
August 2, 2005, 03:07 PM
I most definitely wouldn't want to live forever (whatever that really means), especially in some static, mind-numbingly boring theistic heaven, "earthly paradise" or whatever. I must die in order for others to live. My atoms and molecules will ultimately be needed by other organisms. The only way I would even consider wanting to live forever is if I was actually able to evolve and continually become something/someone else...kind of a weird thought since evolution is what happens to populations and not individuals. But if we can suspend our disbelief long enough to consider living forever, why not for individual evolution? ;)
As for answering the door naked, wouldn't that be some sort of punishable offence? "indecent exposure" or something?

Matt the Medic
August 2, 2005, 03:13 PM
I'll live forever as long as I am alive.

King Rat
August 2, 2005, 03:15 PM
I'll live forever as long as I am alive.

And your cranium is full of brains. ;)

seebs
August 2, 2005, 03:18 PM
I have no idea. I can't conceive of forever. I can't really imagine wanting to stop living, barring extreme pain or something.

ManM
August 2, 2005, 03:44 PM
Isn't eternity just a never ending present? So, for those of you who say you would rather die than live forever, what do you feel about the present? Right here, right now, I can choose to end my life. I have consistently chosen life over death, just as everyone in this thread has done.

Matt the Medic
August 2, 2005, 03:47 PM
Isn't eternity just a never ending present? So, for those of you who say you would rather die than live forever, what do you feel about the present? Right here, right now, I can choose to end my life. I have consistently chosen life over death, just as everyone in this thread has done.
Would your consciousness cease to exist in all definitions of existence if you terminated your human form? If you answer 'No', how can you even make a distinction between life and death?

CanoeMan
August 2, 2005, 04:09 PM
No, I don't want to live forever. I'm a procrastinator, and I'd rather have it so that I die at some point in my life. If I had eternity to live, I would never get anything done. ("I'll do it next year, I promise!")

I'm completely serious here, by the way.

ManM
August 2, 2005, 04:14 PM
Would your consciousness cease to exist in all definitions of existence if you terminated your human form? If you answer 'No', how can you even make a distinction between life and death?
I can make a distinction between the two because death represents a change.

Pendaric
August 2, 2005, 05:23 PM
I'm paraphrasing an answer I recall from somebody else on this type of thread which I found interesting:

=====================================
Forever is a lot longer than most people think.

Forever is fine for the tiny portion of it that contains life as you know it, but forever involves watching all that you love die and decay, watching your civilisation crumble, watching your planet destroyed either by ourselves or our sun's super nova.

Forever involves floating through space friendless and alone because there is no-one left to hear you scream.

Forever involves watching the universe itself die.

And you will be left. Exquisite torture as you go insane. And Forever will only have been going for the merest instant of the concept.
==========================================

I'd like to live a long, long time, but I'll skip forever.

Matt the Medic
August 2, 2005, 05:27 PM
I can make a distinction between the two because death represents a change.

You can change your life, but you can't end it, in otherwords.

Life continues, therefore by definition, one cannot die. You stated that you can choose to take your own life if you wanted to, but here you contradict yourself in that you can't take your own life. You can dispose of one form for another, but that's about all. Right?

_Naturalist_
August 2, 2005, 05:58 PM
I would want the ability to live forever in this universe where we are now.

Philippe*
August 2, 2005, 06:00 PM
Yes, I accept the death phenomenon but I think it sucks, all my life I struggle for life, and I think it is inherent to life, life seeks for life for the life's sake, I for one would like to live like a god in the present forever beyond death, however not in this limited state of course but in another higher state of body and mind towards always more creativity, love, liberty in an neverending cosmic journey. :thumbs:

Philippe

Rational BAC
August 2, 2005, 08:29 PM
Live forever?

Why not? As long as it was interesting.

I assume a Supreme Being could always make it interesting.

thykarmabenill
August 2, 2005, 09:15 PM
I'd like to live a bit longer than we normally do, but forever, as the OP stated, is inconceivable. Living forever sounds terribly frightening and distressing. My neural circuitry is not designed to handle that much information and stimulation. Live a few thousand years, then take a well-earned rest.

Death is not the worst thing that can happen. There are many days as it is that I feel sick of being myself. If I had eternity to spend with myself... Agh.

jaded_revenge
August 2, 2005, 09:18 PM
Ah, I love those pictures.
I love how they draw the apocalypse to.
That said, since everyone is peacefull in the afterlife, I'd dread to think what would happen whenthe lions get hungry.
Anyway, eternity is a very long time to live. And I no gods constant killings would makeit interesting, but an eternity in paradise? Wheres the struggle, wheres the success, some people go insane the moment they reach paradise, what heppensif you spend eternity there.

ManM
August 3, 2005, 10:17 AM
You can change your life, but you can't end it, in otherwords.

Life continues, therefore by definition, one cannot die. You stated that you can choose to take your own life if you wanted to, but here you contradict yourself in that you can't take your own life. You can dispose of one form for another, but that's about all. Right?

Sure, but then you just have to wonder what exactly people mean by "life". You have equivocated consciousness with life. Are plants conscious? Are they alive?

BlessNot
August 3, 2005, 11:13 AM
Live forever?

Why not? As long as it was interesting.

I assume a Supreme Being could always make it interesting.

Oh He'll make it very interesting alright. Just try excercising your free will in heaven and doing your own thing and He will zap you out of existence.

So much for living forever!

:devil1:

kaelcarp
August 3, 2005, 11:26 AM
What I would like is the option to live forever. I'd like to be immortal. I'd like to see where it all goes. But I'd like the "bail out" option. Not forced immortality, but optional immortality.

mindovermyth
August 3, 2005, 11:55 AM
An eternal life without competition, strife or challenges is utterly alien to what drives humanity in general and human beings individually. It is fascinating that so many people buy in to the concept of a peaceful, blissful eternity where there is no need for motivation or experience seeking. You know the saying about life which is both cliche and profound "the journey is the destination". Well, in heaven there is no journey!!!! The whole concept is ridiculous. Only way to keep humans happy in heaven would be to keep them constantly drugged. I think the idea of an eternal heaven is humanity's dream of the ultimate drug. If you think of heaven and eternal life in this way, it makes perfect sense and is perfectly aligned with how the addictive human psychology works: An ultimate eternal supply of your choice drugs without hangovers or consequenses. Yeah mon, go for it! :cool: