benefits of overcoming homosexuality

[I. C. Unicorns]

I asked this question but it became lost in another thread:

What are the benefits to the homosexual for overcoming his or her homosexuality?

Considering the strong opinions held about homosexuality, this should be an super easy question to answer. Anyone who thinks homosexuality is wrong needs to be able to have an answer to this question.

Please enumerate the benefits, I am VERY curious, no answer is too simple or obvious.

[Hyndis]

I don't think you can.

"Reparative therapy" has something like a 0.5% success rate, and thats being very generous. It mostly just ends up making the person depressed, turn to an addiction, or become suicidal. And yes, there are plenty of folks who claim to be "cured" of being gay. Come back in 5 years and see if they're still "cured."

[seebs]

Well, let's just imagine for the sake of argument that it were possible to just magically alter the relevant brain chemistry.

The option of being romantically in love with someone with whom you could potentially have children is, I think, a definite benefit in many peoples' eyes.

There are some others in our current culture, such as legal rights and a better chance of not being beaten on, harassed, fired, or whatever. Although, since one of those rights is "joining the US military", I suppose it's probably a wash on personal safety.

FWIW, I know a counselor who could not possibly be mistaken for anti-gay who reports that he has seen a few people who were engaging in same-sex activities because they were fucked up in some way, but it seems to be very, very, very rare. However, in such a case, getting over the mental issues would be a benefit; that, of course, is a case where "overcoming" homosexuality might be a benefit of something else.

In practice, though, children and social norms are about it.

[Hyndis]

By March of 2006, we'll be at 6.5 billion people. There's already too much offspring being produced.

[seebs]

By March of 2006, we'll be at 6.5 billion people. There's already too much offspring being produced.

Many countries are facing population crashes, and no matter what we might think about global population, individual people often want kids.

[Groovy Cosmic Monkey]

In practice, though, children and social norms are about it.

You're right about the children. In respect to the social norms, I would personally prefer to fight against them and subvert them than capitulate to them. It may be harder, more depressing, and more personally and politically frustrating, but ultimately the courageous route is preferable to the route of giving in to unjust social norms, however superficially appealing that may be.

[seebs]

You're right about the children. In respect to the social norms, I would personally prefer to fight against them and subvert them than capitulate to them. It may be harder, more depressing, and more personally and politically frustrating, but ultimately the courageous route is preferable to the route of giving in to unjust social norms, however superficially appealing that may be.

Agreed. If MN gets "civil unions", spouse and I will get a civil divorce so we can get one.

My explanation of this on CF was that there is a time for Rosa Parks to sit in the front of the bus, and there is a time for a blonde, blue-eyed Jewish woman to scrub the streets with the other Jews while the racists look on in horror at what they've done.

[southernhybrid]

If it were possible to change one's sexual orientation from gay to straight, the only benefit of any importance I can think of is that one would no longer have to worry about the emotional and possible physical harm from bigots. If bigotry were not such a widespread illness of humanity, this benefit would not exist.

It seems to me that being gay is not really the problem. Bigotry and ignorance are the problems.

In today's high tech world there are many options for gay people to parent their own children, so I don't see the parent issue as particularly important anymore.

[jdlongmire]

**sigh**

1. conforming your body to its form, fit and function

2. acknowledging, conforming and promoting the generally accepted beneficial familial construct

3. If you are a Christian - reconciling your faith to the Scriptures without the tortuous rationalization

- pax -

-JD

[ManM]

1. Freedom from desire. :D

[Godless Dave]

FWIW, I know a counselor who could not possibly be mistaken for anti-gay who reports that he has seen a few people who were engaging in same-sex activities because they were fucked up in some way, but it seems to be very, very, very rare.

I believe it. I also believe that it's very rare.

[Godless Dave]

**sigh**

1. conforming your body to its form, fit and function

Marginal. Besides, I'm sure my penis would fit and function just fine in another guy's mouth, not that I'm going to test that assumption.

2. acknowledging, conforming and promoting the generally accepted beneficial familial construct

How is that a benefit? How is acknowledging, conforming, and promoting the generally accepted anything a benefit?

60 years ago the Ku Klux Klan was acknowledging, conforming and promoting the generally accepted beneficial societal construct. Were they right?

[Godless Dave]

1. Freedom from desire. :D

Would that also be a benefit of overcoming heterosexuality?

[Weltall]

1. conforming your body to its form, fit and function As Godless Dave pointed out, our plumbing works regardless of who we choose to use it with. Let's not turn this into a 'It's not natural because homosexuals can't reproduce' argument. That's a dead horse that should be left that way.
2. acknowledging, conforming and promoting the generally accepted beneficial familial construct We are Borg. Sacrifice your individuality and join us. Resistance is futile.
3. If you are a Christian - reconciling your faith to the Scriptures without the tortuous rationalization Care to explain why God makes people one way and then tells them they'll burn in hell for something they were born with and can't control?

[ManM]

Would that also be a benefit of overcoming heterosexuality?
Yep. :Cheeky:

[French Prometheus]

If you are a Christian - reconciling your faith to the Scriptures without the tortuous rationalization
Like the tortuous rationalization of the Christians who condemn slavery? Or that of those who won't keep the Sabbath on the appropriate day of the week? Or that of those who eat shellfish? Or that of those who believe women can teach boys in schools?

Why should non-homophobic Christians reconcile their faith with your interpretation of Scriptures? Why should they read your views into the Bible instead of their own? I mean, it's not like any of you Christians is a literalist in the first place. Do you have a special channel to God that other Christians don't have and that allows you to know the correct interpretation of the Bible? Do you claim to be a prophet?

[Johnny Skeptic]

1. Conforming your body to its form, fit and function.

You are opposed to oral sex, but the Bible doesn't say anything about it, and millions of Christians disagree with your position. In the other thread I mentioned Pat Robertson in one post, and I quoted a Christian web site in another post. Why didn't you quote any Christian sources that agree with your position?

Regarding function, the human body functions quite well when people have sex solely for pleasure, which is in fact the norm and not the exception even among fundamentalist Christians. Have you never had sex solely for pleasure? If sex were not pleasing, people would only have sex when then wanted to have children. Under such a scenario, sexual encounters would be quite rare.

Is it your suggestion that married couples who do not want to have children, or who have adopted children, never have sex?

Sex is generally more pleasing physically when people are younger, more energetic and better looking than they are when they get older. Regarding newlyweds, many of them have limited financial resources and attend college, and having children during the first few years of marriage would be quite difficult for them.

2. Acknowledging, conforming and promoting the generally accepted beneficial familial construct.

What is the generally accepted beneficial familial construct?

3. If you are a Christian - reconciling your faith to the Scriptures without the tortuous rationalization.

That is true regarding many fundamentalist Christians, but it is not at all tortuous for gay liberal Christians to rationalize.

Freedom from desire.

Please elaborate in greater detail.

[mindovermyth]

Originally Posted by ManM
Freedom from desire.

Desire is not only sexual. Desire to eat, sleep, succeed et c et c.

Satisfaction, contentness and happiness are derived from fulfilling desires.

Death of mind and death of body is freedom from desire. If freedom of desire is a goal, than death is a goal. Be careful though, such thoughts can lead you to desire death.

[Johnny Skeptic]

Another thread could be titled 'Benefits of overcoming bigotry against homosexuals.' The benefits would be substantial.

[Hyndis]

3. If you are a Christian - reconciling your faith to the Scriptures without the tortuous rationalization

God made me bisexual. Who are you to argue with god? :p

Besides, homosexuality isn't that big of an issue in the Bible. The importance of the issue would probably determine how often it was mentioned, and homosexuality isn't one of the most mentioned topics in the Bible.

Furthermore, if you want to literally go with what the Bible says about homosexuality, do you also follow all over the other commands that everyone likes to ignore?

I hope you haven't eaten at Red Lobster. :devil1:

And is that a cotton/polyester blend shirt? :eek:

If you're a literalist, you must follow the entire thing. You don't get to pick and choose or else thats just blatent hypocrisy. So, while someone who literally follows the Bible would have an issue with homosexuality, they would also have issues with many, many, many other things that are common these days, including all of those orders to go publicly slay disobedient children and whatnot.

[ManM]

Please elaborate in greater detail.
A person who has overcome homosexuality is free from the influence of their sexual desire.

Desire is not only sexual. Desire to eat, sleep, succeed et c et c.

Satisfaction, contentness and happiness are derived from fulfilling desires.

Death of mind and death of body is freedom from desire. If freedom of desire is a goal, than death is a goal. Be careful though, such thoughts can lead you to desire death.
A person free from the desire to eat is free to give his last bit of food to a starving child. A person free from the desire to sleep is free to give more time working for the poor. A person free from the desire to succeed is free to pursue the good without worry. This freedom doesn't lead to a desire of death. It frees you from the influence of death. ;)

[Johnny Skeptic]

Message to jdlongmire: Have you ever had sex solely for pleasure, do you know a good number of Christians who have never had sex solely for pleasure, do you suggest that newlyweds on their honeymoons refrain from having sex unless they want to procreate, and do you have any evidence that the majority of Christians think that having oral sex is immoral?

[Hyndis]

A person who has overcome homosexuality is free from the influence of their sexual desire.

A person free from the desire to eat is free to give his last bit of food to a starving child. A person free from the desire to sleep is free to give more time working for the poor. A person free from the desire to succeed is free to pursue the good without worry. This freedom doesn't lead to a desire of death. It frees you from the influence of death. ;)

Doesn't that apply equally to being heterosexual? :confused:

[ManM]

Doesn't that apply equally to being heterosexual? :confused:
See post #15. ;)

[Valmont]

If you are a Christian - reconciling your faith to the Scriptures without the tortuous rationalization

I wasn't aware that αÏ?σενοκοιτης had been translated so definitively.

In any case, Saint Paul believed that we were all condemned by the law (Romans 3:20) and we are all in sin. It is by faith that we are brought into the grace of God (ibid 23-24).

Moreover, Saint Paul is very clear that the justification for marriage is not procreation but sexual desire (1 Corinthians 7:9). That applies equally to heterosexual and homosexual unions.

Nor is this pure theory. There is a good body of evidence that the early church, considerably more enlightened than that of today, recognised same-sex marriage (αδελφοποίησις). The case is controversial but seems entirely in keeping with the drive of Christianity away from the fleshy concerns of procreation toward a more spiritual understanding of human love.

[ManM]

It takes quite a stretch to say that αδελφοποίησις was a same-sex marriage, especially given that the raw translation is "brother-making".

See: http://www.learnedhand.com/shaw_boswell.htm

[I. C. Unicorns]

Here is the list of benefits of overcoming homosexuality expressed thus far:


Being romantically in love with someone whom you could potentially have children.

Gaining certain legal rights denied to homosexuals.

Having a better chance of not being harassed or fired.

Being able to be open about one's sexuality in the US military.

No longer having to worry about emotional and possible physical harm from bigots.

Conforming the body sexually to its form, fit and function.

Acknowledging, conforming and promoting the generally accepted beneficial familial construct.

Reconciling one's behavior to the Christian scriptures.

Having freedom from homosexual desire.

There is no benefit.

[I. C. Unicorns]

The thing that strikes me about this list is that basically homosexuality is wrong because it is not like heterosexuality.

[IvanJames]

CHRISTIANS:

Ahem.

I have had a vasectomy. Am I supposed to refrain from sex for the rest of my life, even though I don't believe in your god?

[Hyndis]

The thing that strikes me about this list is that basically homosexuality is wrong because it is not like heterosexuality.

Exactly.

Homosexuality is harmless. The only harm comes from the people who disprove of homosexuality...and sometimes they disprove of it quite violently. :(

[seebs]

CHRISTIANS:

Ahem.

I have had a vasectomy. Am I supposed to refrain from sex for the rest of my life, even though I don't believe in your god?

No, and in fact, the Christians I know who object to vasectomies don't see them as a reason to not have sex.

And yes, this does rather poke a hole in naive "doesn't produce kids" arguments. It won't do you any good against the sophisticated variants.

[Johnny Skeptic]

What do Christians at this forum suggest that people with homosexual sexual identities do with their lives? Remain celibate or what? It is one thing to criticize something, but it is another thing entirely to suggest a better alternative.

[I. C. Unicorns]

What do Christians at this forum suggest that people with homosexual sexual identities do with their lives? Remain celibate or what? It is one thing to criticize something, but it is another thing entirely to suggest a better alternative.

Resist the urge like drug addicts and pedophiles must, I guess. Or, my suspicions suggest, homosexuals are choosing to defy G-d like atheists choose to defy G-d. :devil1:

A Christian who provides a practical answer to that question is admitting defeat and is indirectly giving the concept of homosexuality legitamacy.

(preparing for the xtian tap-dancing cavalcade)

[screwtape]

Resist the urge like drug addicts and pedophiles must, I guess. Or, my suspicions suggest, homosexuals are choosing to defy G-d like atheists choose to defy G-d. :devil1:

A Christian who provides a practical answer to that question is admitting defeat and is indirectly giving the concept of homosexuality legitamacy.

(preparing for the xtian tap-dancing cavalcade)

Homosexuality was around long before your god and his son inspired your holy book and they will be around long after your god is forgotten. Your book didn't like it for the same reasons it didn't like women with freedom of thought and expression - fear. The same kind of fear you appear to have of the letter "o". Your book's rules are all ex post facto. Homosexuals don't defy your god. They simply don't give a shit what he thinks in the same sense I don't care if Santa thinks I've been naughty this year.

S.

[seebs]

What do Christians at this forum suggest that people with homosexual sexual identities do with their lives? Remain celibate or what? It is one thing to criticize something, but it is another thing entirely to suggest a better alternative.

I have seen a number of answers.

Me, I think they should probably do what everyone else does.

I have seen people argue for celibacy or therapy or both.

[jaded_revenge]

Becoming hetrosexual seems like a good idea if your in Iran. They just hung two teenagers for not being straight.

-h, and wh- is G-D? D-esn't y-ur - w-rk. -r can y-u trick y-ur supreme being by just replacing the - with a hyphen?

Anyway, why should homersexuals 'fix' themselves? What is broken in the first palce? And what gives you the right to suggest that they are wrong or immoral?

[seebs]

A Christian who provides a practical answer to that question is admitting defeat and is indirectly giving the concept of homosexuality legitamacy.

Even a fairly impractical answer does the same. So what? The Catholic Cathechism pretty much grants that there are gay people who did not choose to be gay. They teach that these people are "called to celibacy", but they do not try to deny that such people exist.

[jonesg]

I asked this question but it became lost in another thread:

What are the benefits to the homosexual for overcoming his or her homosexuality?

Considering the strong opinions held about homosexuality, this should be an super easy question to answer. Anyone who thinks homosexuality is wrong needs to be able to have an answer to this question.

Please enumerate the benefits, I am VERY curious, no answer is too simple or obvious.

I wandered into a a GAY AA meeting in Boston one night, it got me to wondering about things.
Recovery in AA depends on a working relationship with ones Creator , that would tend to interfere with a homosexual lifestyle.
But there they were anyway.
So I was listening ,they almost to a man repeated "my father is a BIGOT".
It was a definate common denominator.

I've often wanted to find my way back to that meeting and see if its changed at all or whether they're all still pissed off at someone else.
They were all demanding acceptance and not getting their own way....

[jonesg]

Homosexuals don't defy your god. They simply don't give a shit what he thinks
S.

Does that imply all gays are rabidly anti-God ?

[jonesg]

Exactly.

Homosexuality is harmless. The only harm comes from the people who disprove of homosexuality...and sometimes they disprove of it quite violently. :(

Its harmfull to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.

[Valmont]

Does that imply all gays are rabidly anti-God ?

No. I, for instance, am Christian. We just don't care what certain other Christians think God thinks. I do care very much what God Himself thinks.

[jonesg]

Originally Posted by ManM
Freedom from desire.

Desire is not only sexual. Desire to eat, sleep, succeed et c et c.

Satisfaction, contentness and happiness are derived from fulfilling desires.

Death of mind and death of body is freedom from desire. If freedom of desire is a goal, than death is a goal. Be careful though, such thoughts can lead you to desire death.

Try LUST instead of desire.
Lust can never be sated.
It just lusts for more in an ever tightening spiral.
Sexual lust leads to fetishes and disfunctional wants.
The ultimate may be pedophelia... or self inflicted AIDS.

[Columbus]

I wandered into a a GAY AA meeting in Boston one night, it got me to wondering about things.
Recovery in AA depends on a working relationship with ones Creator , that would tend to interfere with a homosexual lifestyle.
But there they were anyway.
So I was listening ,they almost to a man repeated "my father is a BIGOT".
It was a definate common denominator.

I've often wanted to find my way back to that meeting and see if its changed at all or whether they're all still pissed off at someone else.
They were all demanding acceptance and not getting their own way....One particular group of men who are gay and admitted alcoholics isn't exactly an objective sampling. My father, a VERY traditional conservative Catholic, isn't a bigot. He isn't happy that I'm gay, but he's much too conservative about family values to disrupt his family by disowning me or anything. And frankly, my partner Doug is his favorite son-in-law. He participates in our family stuff more than any of my sisters husbands do.

Tom

[Columbus]

Does that imply all gays are rabidly anti-God ?Quite the contrary. Ever heard of Jesus Metropolitan Community Church? Imagine a church where twice every Sunday about three hundred gay people, and another fifty or so straight people who just like the church, get together and worship Jesus as God just like any fundamentalist church does. They even have those irritating power point hymn projections :rolleyes: And they don't begin to take into account the numbers of gay members in more traditional denominations.
Its harmfull to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.There's a huge amount of self-destructive behaviour among gay people. But the fact that there are lot's of gays who aren't makes it clear that gayness itself doesn't cause it. It's the homophobic culture that does it.

Try LUST instead of desire.
Lust can never be sated.
It just lusts for more in an ever tightening spiral.
Sexual lust leads to fetishes and disfunctional wants.
The ultimate may be pedophelia... or self inflicted AIDS.What does any of this have to do with homosexuality? Irresponsible sex is rather more damaging among straight people. It comes with essentially the same risks you describe PLUS the risk of a crisis pregnancy causing some innocent person to have a disastrous childhood, leading to all the trouble that usually causes.

Peace,
Tom

[seebs]

Its harmfull to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.

This comment could be taken as fairly offensive, but I'm curious. Do you have a source? Is it Cameron's research?

[seebs]

Try LUST instead of desire.
Lust can never be sated.
It just lusts for more in an ever tightening spiral.
Sexual lust leads to fetishes and disfunctional wants.
The ultimate may be pedophelia... or self inflicted AIDS.

This is gonna come as a bit of a shock, but I fully agree with you on this.

But there's one thing: As you note, lust is not the same thing as desire.

I have no evidence at all that lust is more common in gays than in straights.

[radagast]

Its harmfull to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.

Unsupported ascertion and opinion.

Also, while there may be a "homosexual lifestyle", I would say that the majority of homosexuals I know, do not follow it. Having homosexual relations isn't a lifestyle.

[Plognark]

CHRISTIANS:

Ahem.

I have had a vasectomy. Am I supposed to refrain from sex for the rest of my life, even though I don't believe in your god?

Ditto. I've only been ignored when bringing this point up in the past.

[seebs]

Unsupported ascertion and opinion.

It might be supported by Cameron's, uhm, "research".

Now, as it happens, the support can be shown to be willful lies. But it's arguably support.

Also, while there may be a "homosexual lifestyle", I would say that the majority of homosexuals I know, do not follow it. Having homosexual relations isn't a lifestyle.

I had a very long discussion of this on CF. Among the examples I used were people who'd been monogamous for 20 years, a priest, a nun, and a woman who decided to take a vow of chastity and devote her life to nursing and treating the sick. One of the gay people I know has taken holy orders, including vows of poverty and chastity. (To be fair, their definitions of "poverty" and "chastity" are not quite so boolean as some.) But he changed his name and devoted his entire life to God.

Which part of this lifestyle should he be giving up? Perhaps it's the serious scholarly work on developing an approach to Biblical interpretation which avoids the traditional errors of naive sola scriptura, without the inflexibility of the Magisterium?

[Hyndis]

Its harmfull to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.

What exactly is this so-called "homosexual lifestyle" anyhow?

Despite being non-heterosexual myself, I've yet to figure out what this means. So far as I can tell I live life exactly the same as everyone else around me. I pay bills. I work. I attend classes to try to get a nifty degree. I complain about gas prices. I like to eat at nice restaurants, but can't afford it all that much. I like to watch movies.

So...whats the difference here? :confused:


And I'm even being nice enough to ignore the insult. Thank you for calling me a sick person. :p

[Astreja]

What exactly is this so-called "homosexual lifestyle" anyhow? Well, if my female household is any indication, it's monogamy, housecats, music lessons, bad puns, book-collecting, and lots of shopping at home-improvement stores.

And if my male neighbours across the lane are any indication, it's monogamy, housecats, gourmet cooking, book-collecting, antiques, and lots of shopping at home-improvement stores.

[AlexNJ]

Its harmfull to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.

I'm not sure I understand what "sick as a group" means. Everyone together now, let's all sneeze at the same time? As for me, I'm never sick, so there. :Cheeky:

Ugh, and what a loaded phrase is "lifestyle." Typically used by homophobes. The kind who talk about group sickness.

[I. C. Unicorns]

Its harmfull to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.

You really need to elaborate...

By lifestyle, do you mean the typical gay male lifestyle of bearded leather-daddys who cruise dark alleys looking for other STD infected men to do drugs and have unprotected sex with?

And, what type of sickness do you mean?

Loaded words are AWESOME--vague, non-commital, yet seem to have strong meaning.

[seebs]

The "lifestyle" term is problematic in that I've never seen someone willing to come out and say exactly what it means.

I am pretty sure that it refers to the stereotypical cruising... Which certainly happens, but so do lots of other things.

[Godless Dave]

I wandered into a a GAY AA meeting in Boston one night, it got me to wondering about things.
Recovery in AA depends on a working relationship with ones Creator , that would tend to interfere with a homosexual lifestyle.

How would believing in a creator god interfere with homosexual desire or practices? AA doesn't require you to believe in the Christian creator god.

[screwtape]

Does that imply all gays are rabidly anti-God ?

No. However, I doubt you will find any that believe they are such horrible people, as the bible advocates.

[jaded_revenge]

Yeh, and all-t -f hetr-sexual males wander dark alley l--king (nah, ill stop it now, doubt its tricking god) for prostitutes. The prostitutes themselves are ALSO hetrosexual.
And how come homesexuals lust and hetrosexual's love? I believe both do the same of each as each other.

[Godless Dave]

Try LUST instead of desire.
Lust can never be sated.
It just lusts for more in an ever tightening spiral.
Sexual lust leads to fetishes and disfunctional wants.
The ultimate may be pedophelia... or self inflicted AIDS.

OK, so what does this have to do with homosexuality specifically? It seems to me it would apply to homosexuals and heterosexuals equally.

[I. C. Unicorns]

Yeh, and all-t -f hetr-sexual males wander dark alley l--king (nah, ill stop it now, doubt its tricking god) for prostitutes. The prostitutes themselves are ALSO hetrosexual.
And how come homesexuals lust and hetrosexual's love? I believe both do the same of each as each other.

It may not trick G-d, but it does trick Google. ;)

[jaded_revenge]

So god uses google?

[orac]

Gays are immoral because they have clubs where gay men meet and have sex. Heterosexuals on the other hand are perfectly moral because if there were clubs with women giving it out for free the lines would go around the block 6 times on a slow night.


The whole "gays are promiscous therefore they should be banned from committed monogomous relationships" is another popular christian argument that I've never quite followed, either.


Continuing on, if the existance of some rather nasty gay men proves that homosexuals as a group are sick, the number of young girls with fathers who can't tell the difference between a child and a sex toy ought to prove that jonesg, by virture of his assumed heterosexuality, a particularly nasty paedophile.

We all know, of course, that this is not even close to valid - yet his logic "some members of a group are bad therefore all members of that group are equally bad" would mean that we have to make that assumption.


Actually, I think that works for me. Anyone who argues that a group can be judged according to its worst members will find I'll make a special exception just for them, and agree completely. ;)

[Adora]

What are the benefits to the homosexual for overcoming his or her homosexuality?
Well, if the overwhelming evidence is correct, it's impossible to "overcome". One only is forced back into the closet, and sustains more damage to their psyche.

[Johnny Skeptic]

Was it King Solomon's intention to procreate every time he had sex? Now this should be fun.

[Godless Dave]

Well, if the overwhelming evidence is correct, it's impossible to "overcome". One only is forced back into the closet, and sustains more damage to their psyche.

And if they marry someone of the opposite sex, as good Christians are expected to do, they end up with a very unhappy spouse and unhappy children.

[IvanJames]

Ditto. I've only been ignored when bringing this point up in the past.

Yeah, I'm a little surprised by the lack of response! I asked for a Christian, but all I got was Seebs! ;)

C'mon, where are the fire breathers!?

PS, as a quick reminder, I asked what the xians here what they would ask of me as a 35 year old divorced non-believer with a vasectomy.

---Ivan James

[IvanJames]

What exactly is this so-called "homosexual lifestyle" anyhow?

Despite being non-heterosexual myself, I've yet to figure out what this means. So far as I can tell I live life exactly the same as everyone else around me. I pay bills. I work. I attend classes to try to get a nifty degree. I complain about gas prices. I like to eat at nice restaurants, but can't afford it all that much. I like to watch movies.

So...whats the difference here? :confused:


And I'm even being nice enough to ignore the insult. Thank you for calling me a sick person. :p

OK, I'll take a swing at this...

I hereby publicly declare that I myself live the "homosexual lifestyle".

I am an urban single. I make my living as a graphic designer. I don't like sports. I'm very involved in the arts. I'm a registered Democrat. I have non-reproductive sex. I love Broadway musicals and antiquing. I love gay bars. My fashion sense is bohemian. I take even the slightest progress in gay rights as a personal victory. Many of my very closest friends--particularly the 2 that are the longest relationships I have had outside of my family of origin--have been gay. I think that James Dobson can go fuck himself.

So, yeah, I live the gay lifestyle!

Just one thing...I'm straight.

---Ivan James

[Ubercat]

Its harmfull to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.

Of course many of them are "quite sick." They've had to deal with idiotic Fugnuts beating them up, and superstitous morons laying guilt trips on them.

-Ubercat

[Johnny Skeptic]

Itis harmful to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.

Try LUST instead of desire. Lust can never be sated.
It just lusts for more in an ever tightening spiral. Sexual lust leads to fetishes and disfunctional wants.
The ultimate may be pedophelia... or self inflicted AIDS.

You are grossly misinformed. You have believed the lies of the religious right. Some homosexuals have sex infrequenty, the vast majority of them are not child pedophiles, and the vast majority of them never get AIDS. Who do you think you are kidding? If no homosexual was a child pedophile, and if AIDS did not exist, you would still be against homosexuality.

On a web site at http://www.aap.org/policy/020008.html the American Academy of Pediatrics says "The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual."

On a web site at http://www.psych.org/public_info/homose~1.cfm the American Psychiatric Association (APA) says, "The Board recognized that a significant portion of gay and lesbian people were clearly satisfied with their sexual orientation and showed no signs of psychopathology. It was also found that homosexuals were able to function effectively in society, and those who sought treatment most often did so for reasons other than their homosexuality." The APA also says, "Reparative therapy, also known as conversion therapy, is a term that is used to describe treatment attempts to change a person from a homosexual orientation to a heterosexual orientation. There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation. It is not described in the scientific literature, nor is it mentioned in the APA's latest comprehensive Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders (1989)."

At a web site at http://www.apa.org/pi/statemen.htm the American Psychological Association says "Homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social and vocational capabilities. Further, the American Psychological Association urges all mental health professionals to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with homosexual orientations."

I don't suppose that you have a religious based bias, do you? It is no accident that the most outspoken opponents of homosexuality in the U.S. are Christians. Actually, since you believe that even the most wonderful, kind, loving, heterosexual non-Christians deserve to go to hell, your opposition is not limited to homosexuals. You oppose all non-Christians, and since you detest homosexuality, you should also detest all non-Christians as well for rejecting Jesus Christ.

[Ubercat]

Well, if my female household is any indication, it's monogamy, housecats, music lessons, bad puns, book-collecting, and lots of shopping at home-improvement stores.

And if my male neighbours across the lane are any indication, it's monogamy, housecats, gourmet cooking, book-collecting, antiques, and lots of shopping at home-improvement stores.

Not possible! Somebody up there is obsessing about sex, spreading diseases, and molesting children. If you can't see it, then you're not looking hard enough. :D

After all, superstition and wishful thinking has somehow established that gay people have much greater sex drives than heteros.

-Ubercat ( I love housecats too)

[jaded_revenge]

So god, the all knowing invisible cloud dwellign giant uses google? Does he use a Mac or Windows XP, or is he the first to get Longhorn?
Anyway, I can't see how the homesexual lifestyle is 'sick'. They tend to be fitter than your average hetrosexual guy. The only problem with gay people, is that they are persecuted, but thats notreally their problem is it. Thats more of a problem for people with prejudice.

[Hyndis]

If anything, children could be better off being raised by a same sex couple than by a heterosexual couple.

Gay people tend to earn a higher income than the rest of the population, on average. And more money means more healthcare, education, safety, and nifty toys for the kids.

[AlexNJ]

[...list of attributes of a "gay lifestyle" excised for space...] So, yeah, I live the gay lifestyle!

Just one thing...I'm straight.

Wow! For a straight guy, you're gayer than this queer. Well, at least I like antiquing. Does that count for anything? I hang my head in shame - I've been out-lifestyled by a straight person. :notworthy

[Johnny Skeptic]

If anything, children could be better off being raised by a same sex couple than by a heterosexual couple.

Gay people tend to earn a higher income than the rest of the population, on average. And more money means more healthcare, education, safety, and nifty toys for the kids.

Well said, Hyndis. Aside from income, homosexuals also outperform heterosexuals in a number or other key areas. I will re-post the data if anyone wants me to.

[IamMoose]

I haven't read this entire thread so apologies if this has been mentioned already but I read in the TV guide yesterday that there is to be a docu on sometime this week - haven't got it to hand, can check if anyone's interested - about a man who's been gay for 20 years and decides he wants to change so goes to the US to one of these Christian 'change them straight' camps. Weird stuff.

[Johnny Skeptic]

I haven't read this entire thread so apologies if this has been mentioned already but I read in the TV guide yesterday that there is to be a docu on sometime this week - haven't got it to hand, can check if anyone's interested - about a man who's been gay for 20 years and decides he wants to change so goes to the US to one of these Christian 'change them straight' camps. Weird stuff.

I have just the information that you need. On a web site at http://www.psych.org/public_info/homose~1.cfm the American Psychiatric Association (APA) says, "The Board recognized that a significant portion of gay and lesbian people were clearly satisfied with their sexual orientation and showed no signs of psychopathology. It was also found that homosexuals were able to function effectively in society, and those who sought treatment most often did so for reasons other than their homosexuality." The APA also says, "Reparative therapy, also known as conversion therapy, is a term that is used to describe treatment attempts to change a person from a homosexual orientation to a heterosexual orientation. There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation. It is not described in the scientific literature, nor is it mentioned in the APA's latest comprehensive Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders (1989)."

Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is a Christian psychologist. He practices so-called reparative therapy. He is a member of the American Psychological Assocition. He is not allowed to speak about reparative therapy at APA meetings, and he doesn't like it. It is no accident that most of Nicolosi's clients are Christians. Nicolosi admitted that in one of his books. Many Christians are afraid that God will send them to hell if they practice homosexuality, hence their interest in going to Dr. Nicolosi to get "cured." Of course, Nicolosi will refuse to explain why God is willing to cure homosexuals, but not quadriplegics and people with severe cases of multiiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy etc.

At an Internet web site at http://www.csicop.org/bib/654 Saffron Monsoon offers a brief review of a book by Wayne Besen titled 'Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth.' Monsoon says, "Besen provides a comprehensive examination of the present 'ex-gay' or 'former homosexual' movement promoted by quack therapists and the religious and political right wing. He traces the history of homosexuality as a mental illness, its removal from the DSM, the founding of groups such as Exodus International, NARTH, and homosexuals Anonymous, and so-called 'reparative therapy' intended to change a homosexual orientation to heterosexual. According to Besen, the organized groups consist of disgraced psychiatrists, psychologists, and untrained individuals who are using a questionable and/or harmful collection of new age, fundamentalist, spiritualist, and homophobic, stereotypic and archaic psychoanalytic 'therapies' to attempt to change gay people into straight people. These therapies include aversion therapy (with either electric shocks or rubber bands), exorcism/deliverance ministry, spirit warfare, regression therapy, intrauterine experiences/fetal trauma resolution (similar to engrams), non-sexual touching (different from therapeutic touch), masculinizing men by playing football, feminizing women by applying makeup, isolation from friends and family, compulsive prayer, meditation, visualization, inner child word, inner healing, repressed memories, bioenergetics, and family constellations. These practices are a travesty of mental health care."

Saffron Monsoon goes on to say, "Besen points out that depending on whom they speak to, these quacks claim to keep no statistics on their success rates or have a 40-99% success rate on converting gays to straights. In reality, Besen writes, they have no success because sexual orientation is innate and cannot be altered."

Some readers will wonder how Besen gathered his research data. He did so in the best way possible. He infiltrated reparative therapy organizations and did not reveal to those organizations his true opinions regarding gay issues.

Besen is no small potato. He has appeared on the Rosie O'Donnell television show, on Bill O'Reilly's popular television show called 'The O'Reilly Factor' and other media sources.

Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine, said "Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome." Even if Vilain is wrong and sexual identity is the result of environmental factors, the best scientific evidence indicates that once it is established, which usually occurs by age 16, it is impossible, or at the very least, difficult to change. In addition, a good number of gay people who have tried to change their sexual identity have been unable to do so. Further, some gay people have said that if given a choice, they would have chosen to be heterosexual in order to escape bigotry.

[Yahzi]

**sigh**
Tell me... do any of your examples not work for the question of: "What are the benefits of becoming white?"

If there were a medical procedure that could make African-Americans white, should they do it?

How about making left-handers into right-handers?

[Negasta]

Further, some gay people have said that if given a choice, they would have chosen to be heterosexual in order to escape bigotry.

Very true.

I have a quote from a very wise and good theist, archbishop Desmond Tutu
of the Anglican Church in South Africa. I can't remember the exact wording, so tell me if it is wrong, it goes as follows:

"I find it inconcievable that a person would choose to be something (gay)that would make them a pariah."

Surprizingly insightfull for a theist, isn't it?

[Kassiana]

Surprizingly insightfull for a theist, isn't it?
For a conservative Christian one, maybe. For a liberal to moderate of any faith, not really. :)

[IvanJames]

Wow! For a straight guy, you're gayer than this queer. Well, at least I like antiquing. Does that count for anything? I hang my head in shame - I've been out-lifestyled by a straight person. :notworthy

Yeah, it makes me a total chick magnet, too. :rolleyes:

[TomboyMom]

OK, I'll take a swing at this...

I hereby publicly declare that I myself live the "homosexual lifestyle".

I am an urban single. I make my living as a graphic designer. I don't like sports. I'm very involved in the arts. I'm a registered Democrat. I have non-reproductive sex. I love Broadway musicals and antiquing. I love gay bars. My fashion sense is bohemian. I take even the slightest progress in gay rights as a personal victory. Many of my very closest friends--particularly the 2 that are the longest relationships I have had outside of my family of origin--have been gay. I think that James Dobson can go fuck himself.

So, yeah, I live the gay lifestyle!

Just one thing...I'm straight.

---Ivan James Ivan! Tell me you live in Capitol Hill or Broadway Terrace!

[Godless Dave]

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question:

How is acknowledging, conforming, and promoting the generally accepted anything a benefit?

An answer to this one:

I have had a vasectomy. Am I supposed to refrain from sex for the rest of my life, even though I don't believe in your god?

And some evidence to back up this assertion:


They tend to be quite sick as a group.

[Johnny Skeptic]

It is harmful to those men who live that lifestyle.
They tend to be quite sick as a group.

The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association all disagree with you, as well as tens of millions of Americans. You have been reading right wing Christian propaganda which is nothing more than a pack of lies. You make assertions, but you don't produce any evidence.

[IvanJames]

Ivan! Tell me you live in Capitol Hill or Broadway Terrace!

I spend pretty much all of my time downtown. Or in Cap Hill, or on Broadway...yes, lodo pretty much sucks <edited to say: um, in case you're one of the few here that doesn't live in Denver, Colorado,;) lodo is lower downtown...it's one of those gentrified urban areas that's full of chain restaurants and yuppie bars>...I'm looking to sell my house and get back to the city ASAP. Thinking of those 2 areas, plus maybe Uptown or Cheeseman Park...Come to think of it, Denver doesn't really even feel all that urban to me, at least not compared to the east coast. But enough of the Denver real estate forum! ;)

And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion where nobody wants to answer you questions... :Cheeky:

---Ivan James

[Newton's Cat]

What are the benefits to the homosexual for overcoming his or her homosexuality?


A successful, long-term relationship with someone of the opposite sex. People who believed themselves to be gay but succeeded in "changing" have a different perspective to those who are gay or who have always been straight. We have "discovered" that the heterosexual expression of our sexual impulses has made us truly happy - which we weren't when we were gay (though we tried to kid ourselves we were).

[starling]

In practice, though, children and social norms are about it.And y'know, not everyone and their mother (well okay their mother) wants or needs to have children. We only need enough to keep the population stable (or in current times, reduce it drastically). So pretty much just social norms I'd say.

If you knew a group of people who, if you had sex with them, would give birth to a brand new baby vacuum cleaner, would you find that more valuable than gay sex? Assume that the cost of raising said Hoover(tm) to maturity is about 1000 times the cost of purchasing one at the store. Frankly I thank goodness for gay sex every day of my life. Between other people that is. :worried:

[Johnny Skeptic]

A person who has overcome homosexuality is free from the influence of their sexual desire.

A person who has overcome bigotry based solely upon a religious book if free to become tolerant and judge people based upon how they act in society, not upon how they act in their bedrooms.

Why should anyone try to overcome homosexuality?

A person free from the desire to eat is free to give his last bit of food to a starving child.

Tell that to God. He is to blame.

A person free from the desire to sleep is free to give more time working for the poor. A person free from the desire to succeed is free to pursue the good without worry. This freedom doesn't lead to a desire of death. It frees you from the influence of death.

Take all of those issues up with God. He set things up, didn't he?

Some Christians tout the benefits of so-called "reparative therapy," but it doesn't work. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological have all told us so. All that reparative therapy does is bring latent bi-sexual tendencies into play. Many "converted" homosexuals have stated that the old tendencies are still there, and many homosexuals who want to "convert" have been unable to do so. It is utter nonsense for some Christians to believe that God will enable people to change their sexual identities. What about quadriplegics and people with cerebral palsy and multiple schlerosis? Since obviously God is not interested in helping those people, why in the world would he be interested in helping homosexuals change their sexual identities?

Some "converted" homosexuals claim that they are happier, but guess what, folks, the majority of those people are Christians. Dr. Joseph Nicolosi admits it. He is a Christian and he runs reparative therapy clinics. A good percentage of Christian homosexuals who want to "covert" are afraid that God will punish them is they commit homosexual acts.

At a web site at http://www.csicop.org/bib/654 Saffron Monsoon offers a brief review of a book by Wayne Besen titled 'Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth.' Monsoon says, "Besen provides a comprehensive examination of the present 'ex-gay' or 'former homosexual' movement promoted by quack therapists and the religious and political right wing. He traces the history of homosexuality as a mental illness, its removal from the DSM, the founding of groups such as Exodus International, NARTH, and homosexuals Anonymous, and so-called 'reparative therapy' intended to change a homosexual orientation to heterosexual. According to Besen, the organized groups consist of disgraced psychiatrists, psychologists, and untrained individuals who are using a questionable and/or harmful collection of new age, fundamentalist, spiritualist, and homophobic, stereotypic and archaic psychoanalytic 'therapies' to attempt to change gay people into straight people. These therapies include aversion therapy (with either electric shocks or rubber bands), exorcism/deliverance ministry, spirit warfare, regression therapy, intrauterine experiences/fetal trauma resolution (similar to engrams), non-sexual touching (different from therapeutic touch), masculinizing men by playing football, feminizing women by applying makeup, isolation from friends and family, compulsive prayer, meditation, visualization, inner child word, inner healing, repressed memories, bioenergetics, and family constellations. These practices are a travesty of mental health care."

Saffron Monsoon goes on to say, "Besen points out that depending on whom they speak to, these quacks claim to keep no statistics on their success rates or have a 40-99% success rate on converting gays to straights. In reality, Besen writes, they have no success because sexual orientation is innate and cannot be altered."

Regarding the preceding, it is obvious to any rational minded person that God is in no way involved in such nonsense. The New Testament says that Jesus and the disciples healed people instantly. Reparative therapy never does that.

Some readers will wonder how Besen gathered his research data. He did so in the best way possible. He infiltrated reparative therapy organizations and did not reveal to those organizations his true opinions regarding gay issues.

[Yahzi]

People who believed themselves to be gay but succeeded in "changing" have a different perspective to those who are gay or who have always been straight.
That's not overcoming your homosexuality - that's overcoming your deep confusion about your own nature. By your own admission, these people were never homosexual in the first place.

Did you intend to respond to the OP?

[AlexNJ]

A successful, long-term relationship with someone of the opposite sex. (...)

How does that make a gay person any happier than a successful, long-term relationship with someone of the same sex, assuming it were even possible for a gay person to be genuinely happy (and honest with themselves) in a heterosexual relationship? Those of us who are in happy, successful, long-term same-sex relationships just don't get why we would ever lie to ourselves, betray who we really are, and attempt to live a lie just to adhere to a dominant (and not exactly 100% successful) paradigm of opposite-sex relationships. I'd sooner wear plaid (blech, the horror!) than stop being who I fundamentally am.

[I. C. Unicorns]

Okay, I'm calling it. There are no benefits to the homosexual for overcoming his or her homosexuality, except for a tiny minority who have psychiatric problems concerning sexuality.

And who's to say there aren't a similar number of emotionally disturbed heterosexuals who would be happier as homosexuals, homosexuals happier as bisexuals, asexuals happier as omnisexuals, ad nauseum.

One could choose to approach each homosexual on a case by case basis to make sure there is "No Queer Left Behind", but it seems hardly worth the effort (actually it seems obsessive-compulsive) It would be more productive to nag people about gettting teatnus booster shots than to nag homosexuals to seek reparative therapy.


There are benefits to people who think homosexuality is wrong for the homosexual to overcome his or her homosexuality, mainly being able to reconcile their belief system.

[Johnny Skeptic]

It is no accident that the majority of homosexuals who go to so-called "reparative therapy clinics" are Christians. Why is that, because they are afraid that God will punish them for being homosexuals, in which case he would be punishing them for acting upon a sexual indentity that he (God) made possible in the first place. Does God care about the many gay and lesbian animals and birds (there is documentation of gay and lesbian animals and birds in over 200 species) that from a Christian viewpoint have to be attributed to him?

[I. C. Unicorns]

It is no accident that the majority of homosexuals who go to so-called "reparative therapy clinics" are Christians.

Yes, I was trying to make that point. Reparative therapy is not intended to help an individual with sexual misidentification, it is solely intended to turn gays into straights, very biased. It would be better to call it intensive Christian therapy (or brainwashing clinic) :down: :down: :down: .

[Deacon Doubtmonger]

See this thread. (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=81351)

[Johnny Skeptic]

See this thread. (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=81351)

The following is from the web site reference:

"Spitzer found 274 men and women who claimed to have changed their orientation from gay to straight, thanks to therapy, and he interviewed them. In 74 of these subjects, the only change Spitzer could identify was their decision to call themselves straight, or to stop having sex, and these he rejected from the study. He found that all of the remainder - 143 men and 57 women - had changed to some degree."

The question is, what constitutes a change of sexual identity? Millions of Americans are bisexuals to varying degrees but never have gay sex. Some are 95% straight and 5% gay, some are 80% straight and 20% gay and so forth. Obviously, people who are 60% gay and 40% straight and want to practice a heterosexual lifestyle will have a much easier time of accomplishing that than people who are 90% gay and 10% straight. On television I once heard a man who "converted" from gay to straight. He said that he was able to have children, but that the old urges were still there, although to a lesser degree.

It is no accident that most people who are interested in "reparative therapy" are Christians. Many of them believe that the Bible condemns homosexuality, and it seems to me that it does, and they are afraid that God will punish them, or possibly even send them to hell. That is more than enough incentive for some Christians to give up homosexual behavior. What we need to know is if the few atheists and agnostics who try reparative therapy are generally as successful as Christians who try reparative therapy. I suspect that such is not the case, and if I am right, we can be pretty sure that Dr. Joseph would not tell anyone about it if he knew about it. The article that I quoted mentions him. I have a few of his books. He is a Christian and he runs some reparative therapy clinics. There is a snake in the wood pile here. In one of his books, Nicolosi makes religion an issue. So, his mission is about much more than just helping gay people to give up homosexual behavior. He never said so, but we can rest assured that he opposes homosexuality even among gay couples who have led monogamous, healthy, happy productive lives together for decades. The first gay couple that got married in Denmark had previously lived in a monogomous relationship together for over 40 years. Nicolosi practices reparative therapy, but his motivation is almost assuredly the Bible.

We need to know if Dr. Spitzer is now a Christian, and if he was a Christian when he campaigned to have homosexuality removed from the list of mental disorders in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association.

[Little Sister]

To answer the OP...

If I could waive a magic wand, and suddenly lose the attraction that I have for my wife...

I would lose this incredible level of intimacy with this woman. The one that has taken the time to learn about me, and gave a damn to do so. That has asked me every question I've ever wanted to be asked. This woman that makes such a deep and profound difference in my life, and lets me know I do the same with hers...
This incredible conversationalist, her giving and generous personality, her empathy and compassion, her wit, her humor, her flirting eyes, her responsible, considerate nature...

I would lose the best relationship I've ever had. I would lose the commitment I've made to her and the home we've built together. I can't imagine a benefit that can outweigh the loss.

[TomboyMom]

A successful, long-term relationship with someone of the opposite sex. People who believed themselves to be gay but succeeded in "changing" have a different perspective to those who are gay or who have always been straight. We have "discovered" that the heterosexual expression of our sexual impulses has made us truly happy - which we weren't when we were gay (though we tried to kid ourselves we were). Are you one of those people? I'm fascinated. Please tell us more.

[Johnny Skeptic]

A successful, long-term relationship with someone of the opposite sex. People who believed themselves to be gay but succeeded in "changing" have a different perspective to those who are gay or who have always been straight. We have "discovered" that the heterosexual expression of our sexual impulses has made us truly happy - which we weren't when we were gay (though we tried to kid ourselves we were).

Are you one of those people? I'm fascinated. Please tell us more.

Yes, we need to know more about Newton's Cat. I am pretty sure that he, if he is a he, is a Christian. I know for a fact that he has not done his homework regarding reparative therapy. At a web site at http://www.csicop.org/bib/654 Saffron Monsoon offers a brief review of a book by Wayne Besen titled 'Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth.' Monsoon says, "Besen provides a comprehensive examination of the present 'ex-gay' or 'former homosexual' movement promoted by quack therapists and the religious and political right wing. He traces the history of homosexuality as a mental illness, its removal from the DSM, the founding of groups such as Exodus International, NARTH, and homosexuals Anonymous, and so-called 'reparative therapy' intended to change a homosexual orientation to heterosexual. According to Besen, the organized groups consist of disgraced psychiatrists, psychologists, and untrained individuals who are using a questionable and/or harmful collection of new age, fundamentalist, spiritualist, and homophobic, stereotypic and archaic psychoanalytic 'therapies' to attempt to change gay people into straight people. These therapies include aversion therapy (with either electric shocks or rubber bands), exorcism/deliverance ministry, spirit warfare, regression therapy, intrauterine experiences/fetal trauma resolution (similar to engrams), non-sexual touching (different from therapeutic touch), masculinizing men by playing football, feminizing women by applying makeup, isolation from friends and family, compulsive prayer, meditation, visualization, inner child word, inner healing, repressed memories, bioenergetics, and family constellations. These practices are a travesty of mental health care."

Saffron Monsoon goes on to say, "Besen points out that depending on whom they speak to, these quacks claim to keep no statistics on their success rates or have a 40-99% success rate on converting gays to straights. In reality, Besen writes, they have no success because sexual orientation is innate and cannot be altered."

Some readers will wonder how Besen gathered his research data. He did so in the best way possible. He infiltrated reparative therapy organizations and did not reveal to those organizations his true opinions regarding gay issues.

Besen is no small potato. He has appeared on the Rosie O'Donnell television show, on Bill O'Reilly's popular television show called 'The O'Reilly Factor' and other media sources.

Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine, recently said, "Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a
variation in our individual genome."

The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Psychological Association, all endorse homosexuality.

A number of homosexuals who have "converted" to heterosexuality have admitted that the old urges are still there. Such people are simply bisexuals who refuse to have a homosexual lifestyle.

It is no accident that the majority of gay people who go to reparative therapy clinics are Christains.

If Newton's Cat believes that God is involved in reparative therapy, he is quite mistaken. Why would God be any more interested in enabling homosexuals to change their sexual identity than he would be interested in giving quadriplegics new arms and legs, healing people who have cerebral palsy, or diverting hurricanes and tsunamis away from land?

What about gay people who have tried to "convert" but have been unable to do so?

Newton's Cat has a lot of explaining to do, but I doubt that he will try to do so.

[Little Sister]

Sheesh... at this point in my life, why would I WANT to "overcome homosexuality?" Like so many other lesbians before me, I learned my strengths when I came out. I found out who my friends were. I learned what my family members were and were not capable of. I've fended off religious whack-jobs. I've learned about myself, and what makes me tick. I learned why the information that I was raised with didn't work for me. I trudged through an unsatisfying straight life and straight marriage.
In essence- I've ALREADY completed to work to "overcome heterosexuality."
And the benefits of that are.....

Being myself
True love
Peace in my home
Peace in my mind
Challenging my strengths

I think any benefits one could name for "overcoming" an innate part of who they are would be superficial at best. Social recognition and acceptance wasn't a great consolation prize when I was married to a man and sucking down antidepressants.

[AlexNJ]

(great post trimmed...) And the benefits of that are.....

Being myself
True love
Peace in my home
Peace in my mind
Challenging my strengths


Wow, I couldn't put it any better. How can you love others or be honest with others until you learn to be loving and honest with yourself, after all? I've met so many women and a few men who went through very much similar experiences and they all say essentially the same thing. I never got to the marriage stage (graduate school meant no love life at all, hetero or otherwise), for which I'm relieved - it spared me a lot of pain that I've seen so many people I know go through.

[Johnny Skeptic]

Heterosexuals who oppose homosexuality need to consider how difficult it would be for them to "convert" to being homosexuals.

[premjan]

I think the reification of heterosexuality may cause some anxiety on the part of heterosexuals about the reality or permanence of their heterosexuality.

[Johnny Skeptic]

As I have said before, why would God be any more interested in enabling homosexuals to change their sexual identities than giving quadriplegics new arms and legs, which he never does, healing people with cerebral palsy, which he never does, or diverting tsunamis away from land, which he often does not do, or interested in making Seebs comfortable for that matter, which according to Seebs he sometimes does? (My mention of comfort is regarding another thread, readers, as some of you already know.)

[TomboyMom]

Sheesh... at this point in my life, why would I WANT to "overcome homosexuality?" Like so many other lesbians before me, I learned my strengths when I came out. I found out who my friends were. I learned what my family members were and were not capable of. I've fended off religious whack-jobs. I've learned about myself, and what makes me tick. I learned why the information that I was raised with didn't work for me. I trudged through an unsatisfying straight life and straight marriage.
In essence- I've ALREADY completed to work to "overcome heterosexuality."
And the benefits of that are.....

Being myself
True love
Peace in my home
Peace in my mind
Challenging my strengths

I think any benefits one could name for "overcoming" an innate part of who they are would be superficial at best. Social recognition and acceptance wasn't a great consolation prize when I was married to a man and sucking down antidepressants. :notworthy
I appreciate you, Little Sister.
I too am a lesbian and very happy. I have true love and would not sacrifice it for anything. That includes a beautiful sexual relationship, which I treasure. I also have the daily opportunity to be and express my unique individuality, which I also value greatly. I would not sacrifice it for anything, even love. I may catch a little social disapproval from time to time, but I arrange my life so as to minimize it, and have no respect for people that express it. I consider my lesbianism to be not so much a perversion as a thrilling distinction.
And here's some interesting side benefits!
No need for birth control.
No possibility of unplanned pregnancy.
More and better dancing.
More comfortable clothes.
Makeup optional.
More opportunities for organized sports.
High heels never required (although an option if you prefer them.)
Not as much necessity to disguise my age.
Less domestic violence.
Some sexual benefits I am too modest to list here, but my female readers can perhaps guess at.
More conversation with romantic partner, and that conversation more equal.
Greater emotional intimacy.

The first two alone would be enough to convert you, if you have the capacity! Maybe more women should consider trying to overcome their heterosexuality!

[Godless Dave]

The first two alone would be enough to convert you, if you have the capacity! Maybe more women should consider trying to overcome their heterosexuality!

No! I'm having enough trouble getting laid as it is!

[Little Sister]

No! I'm having enough trouble getting laid as it is!
:rolling:

But hey-- that brings up an excellent point.
One of the blatant lies that the fundies like to spout as a scare tactic is that "Gays are out to convert your children!!" *Gasp!!*
<cue the dramatic music/>

Which is not true. I've known gays and lesbians that have talked about sexuality with straight people. Others have even had sex with straight people, and have often become what I call "the science experiment". (Totally sucks for someone to fall in love, then be told- "I'm not as in to this as I though I would be, I'm going back to a straight life." )

However, there aren't any gay organizations that actively recruit straights. We don't have banners that say YOU CAN CHANGE (http://www.pfox.org/PFOX-Large.html). The recruiting is all done by NARTH, and Exodus and PFOX.

[AlexNJ]

(...) The recruiting is all done by NARTH, and Exodus and PFOX.
You mean I can't earn a toaster oven? :(
It's so sad to see the misconceptions a lot of straights have on that score, among others. I have a good friend at work whom I've known for about a decade now. Catholic to the core. She's very nice but every once in a while will come out with something like "I don't know if gays should be allowed to adopt. The kids might turn out gay under their influence." Wow, where to even begin responding to something like that?

[Johnny Skeptic]

The recruiting is all done by NARTH, and Exodus and PFOX.

You mean I can't earn a toaster oven?
It's so sad to see the misconceptions a lot of straights have on that score, among others. I have a good friend at work whom I've known for about a decade now. Catholic to the core. She's very nice but every once in a while will come out with something like "I don't know if gays should be allowed to adopt. The kids might turn out gay under their influence." Wow, where to even begin responding to something like that?

Is the Catholic woman not aware that over 99% of homosexuals were raised by heterosexual parents? In addiiton, is she also not aware that a sizeable majority of children who are raised by homosexuals turn out to be heterosexuals? Further, is she also not aware that some heterosexuals who are raised by heterosexual parents have siblings who are homosexuals? The best evidence proves that the sexual idenities of parents is not the dominant factor that determines the sexual identities of children.

[AlexNJ]

Is the Catholic woman not aware that over 99% of homosexuals were raised by heterosexual parents? (...)
Well, it reminds me of that Bertrand Russell (my hero, by the way) quote. Something about people would die before thinking , and most do.
Anyway, it's a comment I've heard often enough that it makes me wonder: if just a few people have the lack of tact to say it to me, how many more people I know actually think it but just don't express it?
I'm usually left replying that my parents did their best to raise me straight at look how it turned out. Then I add that I don't know why raising a gay kid would be any worse than raising a straight kid. At least the kid will know how to dress himself with spectacular clothes and will be the envy of the other kids at the playground. :D

[seebs]

Is the Catholic woman not aware that over 99% of homosexuals were raised by heterosexual parents?

That high? This seems a bit odd; I would have assumed that more than 1% of the people raising kids were gay. Is this just a question of reproduction correlating to child-rearing?

In addiiton, is she also not aware that a sizeable majority of children who are raised by homosexuals turn out to be heterosexuals?

If we're talking raised by, not blood relations, it's even the same percentage you get from heterosexual parents.

Further, is she also not aware that some heterosexuals who are raised by heterosexual parents have siblings who are homosexuals?

Probably not.

The best evidence proves that the sexual idenities of parents is not the dominant factor that determines the sexual identities of children.

No, although blood relationship to gays seems to be a mild predictor. If memory serves, fraternal twins and siblings have the same correlative value, arguing for genetics rather than hormones in utero.

[radagast]

That high? This seems a bit odd; I would have assumed that more than 1% of the people raising kids were gay. Is this just a question of reproduction correlating to child-rearing?Yes, but think the math through. The percent of gay folk raised by gay folk is a product of gay folk with children times the avg probability of being gay. Even if all gay folk raised kids, which is very skewed, and assuming the 10% rule of gay to straight holds, then you have a max of 10% x 10% = 1%. Given the number of children raised by gay parents is less than unity, you have to get less than 1%.

Glenn

[Little Sister]

Is the Catholic woman not aware that over 99% of homosexuals were raised by heterosexual parents? In addiiton, is she also not aware that a sizeable majority of children who are raised by homosexuals turn out to be heterosexuals? Further, is she also not aware that some heterosexuals who are raised by heterosexual parents have siblings who are homosexuals? The best evidence proves that the sexual idenities of parents is not the dominant factor that determines the sexual identities of children.

Too cerebral. Bump the knowledge of the average American down to what can be contained in a public service announcement commercial, or better yet, a bumper sticker. It's much easier for joe average to just assume that it's good for kids to rip them away from their parents- rather than chance the horrors of them "catching gay".

[Little Sister]

Sources- PFlag, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, and the American Counseling Association.

In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed the term "homosexuality" from the list of mental and emotional disorders. Sexual orientation is not a disorder, therefore, it does not need to be cured.

In 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence shows that reparative therapy does not work and that it can do more harm than good.

In 1995 the American Counseling Association announces the permanent expulsion of membership of Richard Cohen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Cohen_(therapist)).

In 1998, the American Psychiatric Association stated it was opposed to reparative therapy, stating "psychiatric literature strongly demonstrates that treatment attempts to change sexual orientation are ineffective. However, the potential risks are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive [suicidal] behavior..."

The American Medical Association, states in its policy number H-160.991, that it “opposes, the use of ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation�.

In 2001, The US Surgeon General's Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior asserted that homosexuality is not "a reversible lifestyle choice�.

The liabilities of attempting to overcome homosexuality:
From the American Psychiatric Association:
"The potential risks of "reparative therapy" are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient."

Reparative therapy to overcome homosexuality is denounced by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals. (Source) (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html#2)

Prior to 1973-
Gays men, lesbians, and the transgendered were committed to institutions and subjected to forced castration, hysterectomies, electrical and chemical shock treatment, lobotomies and other “cures?�. (Source) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0452010926/qid=1124388746/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-8777232-1229442?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[Weltall]

You know, if you could 'catch gay' then I have no idea how I've managed to remain heterosexual. I've had teachers, friends and classmates that have been homosexual and I didn't even catch a common cold. So much for the theory that evil communist illuminati gay teachers are corrupting our youth. I mean, I spent most of my spare time last year hanging out in my girlfriend's dorm (heterosexual population: ~5. Homosexual/Bisexual population: 130) and nothing happened, except possibly that I grew even more accepting. Shock! Horror!

[Little Sister]

my girlfriend's dorm (heterosexual population: ~5. Homosexual/Bisexual population: 130)

<wipes away drool/>

Oh, man...

I totally went to the wrong school..... :wide:

[Johnny Skeptic]

Well, let's just imagine for the sake of argument that it were possible to just magically alter the relevant brain chemistry.

Yes, let's do. Let's just imagine that heteroseuxals who do not want to have or adopt children would like to experiment with homosexuality.

The option of being romantically in love with someone with whom you could potentially have children is, I think, a definite benefit in many peoples' eyes.

First of all, bi-sexuals are able to have children, but the Bible by no means allows bi-sexuality. Second of all, lesbians can have invitro-fertilized eggs transplanted in their wombs and bear children. Third of all, if I wanted to have children, I would adopt children in order to make certain that my children would not be born deformed. Fourth of all, I wouldn't adopt any child less than years old. By that age, personablity traits are pretty well established, and I wouldn't adopt a child who was difficult to deal with.

There are some others in our current culture, such as legal rights and a better chance of not being beaten on, harassed, fired, or whatever. Although, since one of those rights is "joining the US military", I suppose it's probably a wash on personal safety.

Many gay people are content with their lives and wouldn't change their sexual identities even if they could.

FWIW, I know a counselor who could not possibly be mistaken for anti-gay who reports that he has seen a few people who were engaging in same-sex activities because they were fucked up in some way, but it seems to be very, very, very rare. However, in such a case, getting over the mental issues would be a benefit; that, of course, is a case where "overcoming" homosexuality might be a benefit of something else.

As some gay people in this forum have pointed out, the main mental issue that needs overcoming is anti-gay bigotry.

In practice, though, children and social norms are about it.

At http://www.aap.org/policy/020008.html the American Academy of Pediatrics says "The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual."

Historically, social norms have often not been good for society.