The Ultimate Choice [Archive I]

Mace

August 3, 2005, 03:15 PM

Sigma

August 3, 2005, 03:27 PM

God knows you better than you. If he exists, I'm sure he will understand your confusion and it's doubtful he will condemn you to eternity of hell just for that.

Use your rationality, weigh up both sides of the arguement and come to a logical conclusion. Why the fuck would God hate you for that? He's obviously done a really shit job at being God if there are so many atheists in the world so who can blame you for your doubts?

TexasAWOL

August 3, 2005, 03:31 PM

Hey, I understand where you are coming from. :rolleyes:
Been there, done that, got the T shirt.

To doubt your beliefs does NOT make one "hell-bound".

To RENOUNCE all belief in God, etc, according to the Bible, would make one "hell-bound".
Skepticism, doubts, thoughts, etc....

Paul himself said he did what he knew he shouldn't- and didn't do the things he knew he should.

"Faith" as you know, is the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT YET SEEN"..........

Been there myself. Just when I have thought the very thoughts you are having, that 'still small voice'---- and NO I'm not schizo! (LOL)---- says, "keep belieiving".....

Hope that helps.

Blessings and shalom!

TEXASAWOL

Quetzalcoatl

August 3, 2005, 03:31 PM

I'm going through such a hard time right now. I'm starting to doubt Christianity. How could it be that God could be real? I've never doubted him like this. But he's never proved himself to me.

Why were you a Christian originally?

I need you all to argue some points of this for me. And I'm sick and tired of hearing "Just have faith." I'm mad right now even thinking about it. I can't have faith when He doesn't say He's there!
If he said he’s there why would you need faith?

But then when I am ready to accept my atheism a taunting thought crosses my mind.
Atheism is not the opposite of Christianity.

What if I am being tempted by Satan?
Is the power of Satan greater than god?

What if he is deceiving me, and it's working? That I'll spend eternity in Hell? It's hard saying this, but the only reason I remain Christian is out of fear of Hell! But this is wrong.
Do you think you can hide your reasons from an omniscient god?

Why would a loving God, if he gives us choices, doom us to Hell for simply not believing Him?
What do you think? ( http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=132338)

Argue these points with me. I'm so confused right now. I don't know what to accept.
One the benefits of been an adult is that you get to make up you own mind.

Please help me. I'm so confused right now...

We have two ways of finding out about the gods, either by studying the universe or claims of revelation by men. We know that men do lie and are sometimes mistaken. We know of no instance of men faking a universe. Where do you think is your best option to find the “truth�??

ManM

August 3, 2005, 03:34 PM

It's hard saying this, but the only reason I remain Christian is out of fear of Hell!
If God is good, the only hell you have to worry about will be of your own making. Work to become a loving person, like Christ, and you will have nothing to worry about.

Mace

August 3, 2005, 03:47 PM

To RENOUNCE all belief in God, etc, according to the Bible, would make one "hell-bound".
Skepticism, doubts, thoughts, etc....

I'm already having doubts.

And to one question above me, I became a Christian in the first place out of my family, but I was far more into it than them.

Mace

August 3, 2005, 03:50 PM

King Rat

August 3, 2005, 04:00 PM

Chill, chill, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Check out Spinoza and or deism. I don't think any god would mind if you educated yourself.

Mace

August 3, 2005, 04:02 PM

Alethias

August 3, 2005, 04:05 PM

Ask god to give you incontrovertable evidence of his existence. If god made you as the type of person to question his existence, surely he can answer your questions.

If he gives you evidence that is incontrovertible, you have your answer. If he doesn't either he doesn't love you enough to prove himself to you, or he doesn't exist.

If he exists but doesn't respond to your cries for help, in what way is it reasonable to continue?

If the only answers you receive are no different than natural occurences in your life, You aren't hearing from god. You are simply perceiving natural occurences.
In the end, sir, you are responsible for your own decisions on this. God isn't responsible for what you decide, neither are any significant others or pastors or family members or members of IIDB or christian forums you post to.

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 04:05 PM

Been there, done that...almost 5 years ago now. And IIDB helped me through the process of "deconversion."

For me, it's not about "choice". IMO, one can't choose to believe in God or choose to not believe in God (theists, if you question this, try choosing not to believe in God for a day or so). So, from my perspective, you are not faced with a "choice" to believe in (the Christian) God or not. Either you do or you don't believe. Sources like IIDB and Christian.net may provide the information needed to swing your belief one way or another, but it's not like you'll consciously choose one way or another.

Again, for me, I came to the point (about 5 years ago) when, after a long and tortured period of doubt and questioning, I simply stopped believing. I certainly didn't choose to stop believing. One day, I just realized I no longer believed in God.

BTW, the only reason to fear hell is if you do believe (in God). If you fear hell, then you do believe in God. If you reach the position where you no longer believe in God, then that fear will vanish. That was my experience, anyway.

King Rat

August 3, 2005, 04:11 PM

I'm chill... :o

I'm sure all of you have went through this, most of you anyways, but why must life be so difficult? Why do I have to worry suppoedly about a Being who sits up in Heaven wanting me to do right? I feel like I'm on a dog leash.

If he wants you to do right, wouldn't he want you to do right for you? This is a question that you need answers to, why would a loving god condemn someone for that?

TexasAWOL

August 3, 2005, 04:12 PM

UPDATE: Not one single Christian has even bothered to help me in Christian.net... :o Four views of that thread though.

I guess my soul isn't important enough for somebody to respond.

Damn it I'm so mad! I'm mad at this so-called God. I'm mad at these fucking Christians that believe they're holier than thou when they're the most hypocritical pieces of shit I've ever met!

I understand your frustration.... did you read my first reply slowly and absorb it?
I was trying to say, it's OK to have questions, doubts, frustrations!

Did not even Jesus go through some "torment" and "conflict" when He sweat tears of blood?

When we (you and me) get to the point of sweating BLOOD, THEN we'll have something to gripe about! :thumbs:

Hang in there- you'll be fine.

Blessings to you.
TX

TexasAWOL

August 3, 2005, 04:15 PM

PS: RELIGION makes you feel like your on a dog leash.
Jesus said HIS YOKE was light.
HE LEADS--- HE NEVER PUSHES! :)

Peace to you.
TX

GoodLittleAtheist

August 3, 2005, 04:16 PM

There is nothing wrong with being confused. You are just being honest about what you feel. Why would a GOOD deity punish you for being honest?

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 04:17 PM

PS: RELIGION makes you feel like your on a dog leash.
Jesus said HIS YOKE was light.
HE LEADS--- HE NEVER PUSHES! :)

Umm, you lead with a leash. :rolleyes:

And do you know what a "yoke" is?

BadBadBad

August 3, 2005, 04:27 PM

I need you all to argue some points of this for me. And I'm sick and tired of hearing "Just have faith." I'm mad right now even thinking about it. I can't have faith when He doesn't say He's there!

And why not be mad? Just have faith in whom? That's the real question. Have faith in whom and why should you?

But then when I am ready to accept my atheism a taunting thought crosses my mind. What if I am being tempted by Satan? What if he is deceiving me, and it's working? That I'll spend eternity in Hell? It's hard saying this, but the only reason I remain Christian is out of fear of Hell! But this is wrong. Why would a loving God, if he gives us choices, doom us to Hell for simply not believing Him?

What if God is Satan? What if Satan inspired the Bible, and he is deceiving you, and it ... was working? How can you tell the difference?

Ask yourself how is it that a con man convinces the dupes? Is fear an effective tool for the con man? Again, have faith in whom?

You're answering your own questions aren't you? Why would a loving God condemn us to Hell for simply not believing? You know the answer to that. He wouldn't. Therefore the Christian God cannot exist. You're not going to get any arguments from us on that. That may be the single biggest reason for deconversion and lack of belief in the Christian god. If you could give us a convincing reason, perhaps we could argue with you.

I'm so confused right now.

Once you give up a presumption that Christianity is by definition is true, you can start to clear up a lot of this confusion pretty easy. I suggest you spend some time reading some of the deconversion stories here and elsewhere.

sea star

August 3, 2005, 04:29 PM

To RENOUNCE all belief in God, etc, according to the Bible, would make one "hell-bound".
Skepticism, doubts, thoughts, etc....

But then, if there is no god, then there is no hell. Both part of the same story.

Good luck sorting it through.

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 04:31 PM

To RENOUNCE all belief in God, etc, according to the Bible, would make one "hell-bound".

I'm safe then, as I've never "renounced" all belief in God. I simply lack belief in god(s), as I find no compelling reasons to believe in god(s).

Mace

August 3, 2005, 04:32 PM

BadBadBad

August 3, 2005, 04:33 PM

Why must life be so difficult?
That's a question that presupposes God isn't it? If there's no God, there's no reason why life has to be anything. It just is. Only if there is a god do you have to be so confused about why life has to be so difficult.

Why do I have to worry suppoedly about a Being who sits up in Heaven wanting me to do right?

I don't know? Is there a reason for you to worry? If so, what is it?

BadBadBad

August 3, 2005, 04:34 PM

If God is good, the only hell you have to worry about will be of your own making.

And what if God is not good?

Mace

August 3, 2005, 04:35 PM

Update on our "conversation" going on at the Christian Forums.

http://www.christian.net/messages.php?forum=301&topic=9539&page=0#89967

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 04:35 PM

Well I need to confront this face to face. If there was a God... shouldn't I feel something if I pray to it and ask Him for enlightment?

Nothing. Nadda. Zip.

What else can I do but ask him directly? I did. He didn't call back.

Therefore I must conclude that He either doesn't really care one way or another. Or... He doesn't exist.

Again, I went through exactly the same thing about 5 years ago. And for a long time before that, with periods of strong doubt and relatively strong belief.

I'm much happier (internally, with my worldview) since I finally reached the place where I realized that I simply lack belief in the whole god-yarn.

BadBadBad

August 3, 2005, 04:36 PM

Mace

August 3, 2005, 04:37 PM

And what if God is not good?

That's what I'm thinking. What if He's neutral.

And I've though about this since the age of five... what if... Satan was the real Savior and Jesus was merely the Antichrist at that time?

Just something to think about. Even though I never really thought of it as true.

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 04:42 PM

That's what I'm thinking. What if He's neutral.

And I've though about this since the age of five... what if... Satan was the real Savior and Jesus was merely the Antichrist at that time?

Just something to think about. Even though I never really thought of it as true.

That's the deal, Mace. If some god or other does exist, in reality we know nothing for sure about it. All we've got is a bunch of speculation. So, why worry yourself about it?

I'd recommend you sit down with yourself and list the reasons why you believe in God. And, possibly, the reasons why you believe in a particular God.

Now, are those reasons compelling? I did this, and found that they are not.

If a God exists, I can see no reason why I'd be better off believing it does than not believing it does. Really, why would such an entity care if I believed in it?

The whole notion that our eternal fate is determined on whether or not we believe in a god, and especially in a particular god, is absurd, IMO.

What kind of God would set up an absurd system like that, and then hide itself so effectively from us?

Tom Sawyer

August 3, 2005, 04:42 PM

To IIDB,

I'm going through such a hard time right now. I'm starting to doubt Christianity. How could it be that God could be real? I've never doubted him like this. But he's never proved himself to me.

I need you all to argue some points of this for me. And I'm sick and tired of hearing "Just have faith." I'm mad right now even thinking about it. I can't have faith when He doesn't say He's there!

I don't want to be pedantic, but technically, if He were to prove Himself to you, you wouldn't need faith.

But then when I am ready to accept my atheism a taunting thought crosses my mind. What if I am being tempted by Satan? What if he is deceiving me, and it's working? That I'll spend eternity in Hell? It's hard saying this, but the only reason I remain Christian is out of fear of Hell! But this is wrong. Why would a loving God, if he gives us choices, doom us to Hell for simply not believing Him?

Argue these points with me. I'm so confused right now. I don't know what to accept. Please know that to hear all arguements from both sides I am sending this same message to Christian.net Forums. (http://www.christian.net/forums.php) I'm also telling them about this place. So that I can hear both your arguements AND counter-arguements.

Please help me. I'm so confused right now... :(

Really, you just have to ask yourself what your reasons for either believing or not believing are. It all boils down to a search for truth and, in the end, the only thing that matters is whether or not you are honest with yourself about the answers you find. If that search leads you away from your faith, then you either have to deal with it and go on from there or live a lie. If it leads you back to your faith, then you can be like most Christians and only keep those beliefs that are palatable to you (like God loves you) and reject the rest (like you'll go to Hell for not believing everything).

There's lots of arguments, both good and bad, on both sides of the fence. You've probably read most of them by this point already, so there's not much point in repeating them. If you accept arguments because you see them as logically valid or you accept arguments because they "feel right", it doesn't matter. All that matters is that you be honest with yourself about what you find and have the strength to deal with it whatever happens.

Mace

August 3, 2005, 04:45 PM

BadBadBad

August 3, 2005, 04:45 PM

Valmont

August 3, 2005, 04:52 PM

Cards on the table, I'm Christian.

I won't tell you what to believe though. You have to work out what you believe for yourself. God doesn't exactly seem to work in obvious ways.

What I would say though is it takes time. It's not something you're ever going to get a definitive answer on. I'd also say that fear of hellfire is a lousy reason for believing in God. It's also a pretty lousy reason for not believing in Him. It's the sort of argument that gets ruled inadmissible.

Take some time. Listen to the quiet places of your mind as well as the loud ones and have some faith, at least, that, if God is as good as He says He is, He's certainly not going to condemn you to Hell for having perfectly reasonable doubts.

Magus55

August 3, 2005, 04:58 PM

Well I need to confront this face to face. If there was a God... shouldn't I feel something if I pray to it and ask Him for enlightment?

Nothing. Nadda. Zip.

What else can I do but ask him directly? I did. He didn't call back.

Therefore I must conclude that He either doesn't really care one way or another. Or... He doesn't exist.One thing you have to realize is God is not a magic genie. God doesn't always answer with yes, and His answers usually aren't audible. God is subtle. Prayyer is not just to request things from God. It is also to align ourselves with His will, instead of ours. It can be frustrating, but it can take time. Try praying sincerely for God to reveal Himself to you and read the Bible everyday. God usually speaks through His Word.

God never said it would be easy. He just said it would be worth it.

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 04:58 PM

I've actually felt reassured after asking God out in the open for help. Isn't he supposed to help me? He didn't... if that doesn't work what would?

Nothing fails like prayer. When I believed, I often felt comfort in prayer. Why? I suppose it helps you feel like you're unloading your burden off your shoulders and onto God's. But you get that psychological benefit whether the god you're praying to exists or not. You can pray to a stone idol and feel the same relief. You can trust in Fate or Karma and feel the same relief.

But, yeah, most prayers go unanswered. Other than the psychological relief, the problem's still with you.

As quoted by any Christian. I'm "hardening my heart."

Yes, they have to say that. They believe in God, and believe that belief in God is damn near irresistible. Therefore, if you are having doubts of God's existence, if you're not getting answers to your pleas to God to show himself to you, there's got to be something wrong with you. There can be no fault in God. That fault is often labeled "hardening your heart." Puts the blame squarely on you. (Though the bible even indicates that God plays a part in "hardening your heart".)

BadBadBad

August 3, 2005, 05:00 PM

I've actually felt reassured after asking God out in the open for help. Isn't he supposed to help me? He didn't... if that doesn't work what would?

As quoted by any Christian. I'm "hardening my heart."

Actually as quoted by the Bible, God is the mighty potter that hardened hearts for the damned and dishonored, and he did it before time began. You didn't have any say about then, nor do you have any now.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

BadBadBad

August 3, 2005, 05:03 PM

One thing you have to realize is God is not a magic genie. God doesn't always answer with yes, and His answers usually aren't audible. God is subtle. Prayyer is not just to request things from God. It is also to align ourselves with His will, instead of ours. It can be frustrating, but it can take time. Try praying sincerely for God to reveal Himself to you and read the Bible everyday. God usually speaks through His Word.

God never said it would be easy. He just said it would be worth it.

I'm not sure Magus. I'd like to believe you. This God thing you're talking about. No offense, but it sounds kind of outrageous and silly. Can you offer anything as to why we should have faith in you and believe this story?

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 05:03 PM

I won't tell you what to believe though. You have to work out what you believe for yourself.

Very good advice.

God doesn't exactly seem to work in obvious ways.

His alleged work is so un-obvious, from my perspective, that it's the same as his not existing. ;)

What I would say though is it takes time. It's not something you're ever going to get a definitive answer on. I'd also say that fear of hellfire is a lousy reason for believing in God. It's also a pretty lousy reason for not believing in Him. It's the sort of argument that gets ruled inadmissible.

I don't know any atheists that lack belief in God because of Hell. The two beliefs go together. If you lack belief in God, you lack belief in Hell.

However, one can believe in God and not believe in Hell, of course.

Take some time. Listen to the quiet places of your mind as well as the loud ones and have some faith, at least, that, if God is as good as He says He is, He's certainly not going to condemn you to Hell for having perfectly reasonable doubts.

Good advice.

BadBadBad

August 3, 2005, 05:09 PM

You have to work out what you believe for yourself. God doesn't exactly seem to work in obvious ways.

How do you work out what you believe?

What I would say though is it takes time. It's not something you're ever going to get a definitive answer on. I'd also say that fear of hellfire is a lousy reason for believing in God. It's also a pretty lousy reason for not believing in Him. It's the sort of argument that gets ruled inadmissible.

Why does it take so long? What happens if you die early when more time was required? If I'm not getting any definitive answers, why should I believe? If hell is a bad reason, what is a good reason?

Take some time. Listen to the quiet places of your mind as well as the loud ones and have some faith, at least, that, if God is as good as He says He is, He's certainly not going to condemn you to Hell for having perfectly reasonable doubts.

When did God say he is good? How do you know who he will condemn to hell or not? Can you offer us anything as to why we should have faith in you that all these things you're saying are true?

Quetzalcoatl

August 3, 2005, 05:12 PM

Try praying sincerely for God to reveal Himself to you and read the Bible everyday.

When one doesn’t get answers is it because one prayed insincerely?

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 05:12 PM

One thing you have to realize is God is not a magic genie.

Yeah, magic genies are much more reliable. ;)

God doesn't always answer with yes, and His answers usually aren't audible. God is subtle.

And so subtle as to be equivalent to chance, happenstance and coincidence. You pray, and roll the dice. The answers come in the same way as if you'd never prayed at all.

Prayyer is not just to request things from God. It is also to align ourselves with His will, instead of ours. It can be frustrating, but it can take time.

Yes, prayer can get your mind to thinking God-thoughts, and therefore doing God-actions. The psychological effects of prayer on you mind are enough to explain that, though. In reality, you're enforcing/strengthening your will to behave in the way that you perceive that your God (whether it exists or not, it does not matter) would will you to act.

Try praying sincerely for God to reveal Himself to you and read the Bible everyday. God usually speaks through His Word.

Oh, yeah, did that. And yet I'm still an atheist. You see, God never "revealed" himself to me. Well, I did have images of God, but what I thought was God was just my own "thoughts" or mental image of God, formed around the concept of God which was handed down to me (yes, reading the Bible is useful to mould the raw notion of "god" into a particular God). Hey, it's all in your mind.

And, of course, good Muslims pray every day and read the Koran. Voila! Allah reveals himself to them.

God never said it would be easy. He just said it would be worth it.

Umm, no. Perhaps some men wrote that in a book somewhere. We have no evidence that a "God" ever said such a thing.

Mace

August 3, 2005, 05:24 PM

Exactly! Perfectly true. Where did God HIMSELF say anything in the Bible? It's only been the Saints I've heard from.

Magus55

August 3, 2005, 05:24 PM

When one doesn’t get answers is it because one prayed insincerely?Sometimes.

Mace

August 3, 2005, 05:28 PM

Who here agrees I should simply read the Bible and pray?

Whether he exists or not, I believe it would only help in both circumstances.

Tom Sawyer

August 3, 2005, 05:31 PM

Who here agrees I should simply read the Bible and pray?

Whether he exists or not, I believe it would only help in both circumstances.

Depends. Are you doing to help search for answers or are you doing it hide from trying to find those answers? If the former, go ahead. If the latter, try something different.

Quetzalcoatl

August 3, 2005, 05:34 PM

Sometimes.

Mace claims he has not received answers do you think he prayed insincerely?

Magus55

August 3, 2005, 05:35 PM

Yeah, magic genies are much more reliable. ;) But they are more much coniving. Always trying to mess up your wishes or trick you into freeing them! :Cheeky:

And so subtle as to be equivalent to chance, happenstance and coincidence. You pray, and roll the dice. The answers come in the same way as if you'd never prayed at all. What if there are no coincidences? There is some story, don't remember exactly how it goes, but its about a guy who keeps asking God for help, and things ( like a boat or something) shows up to help him, but he dismisses it. Eventually he dies from not taking any of the boats or planes, and he asks God why He didn't help him. God said, what do you think the boat, plane etc. was?

Yes, prayer can get your mind to thinking God-thoughts, and therefore doing God-actions. The psychological effects of prayer on you mind are enough to explain that, though. In reality, you're enforcing/strengthening your will to behave in the way that you perceive that your God (whether it exists or not, it does not matter) would will you to act. Talk about your psychological conspiracy theories.

Oh, yeah, did that. And yet I'm still an atheist. You see, God never "revealed" himself to me. Well, I did have images of God, but what I thought was God was just my own "thoughts" or mental image of God, formed around the concept of God which was handed down to me (yes, reading the Bible is useful to mould the raw notion of "god" into a particular God). Hey, it's all in your mind. Maybe you just conditioned your mind to believe what was actually God, was in fact only your mind so you dismissed it. If your mind can make you believe your talking to God, it can work the other way too.

And, of course, good Muslims pray every day and read the Koran. Voila! Allah reveals himself to them. Yeah, but God has never asked me to blow up the London subway.

Umm, no. Perhaps some men wrote that in a book somewhere. We have no evidence that a "God" ever said such a thing.Quite impressive authors to make all that up on their own and have it be continuous from 40 others over a 1000 years, and make billions and billions of people believe its actually a fact for 2000 years. Who knew illiterate, poor farm boys could become the most influential writers in the history of humanity.

Magus55

August 3, 2005, 05:36 PM

Mace claims he has not received answers do you think he prayed insincerely?
Possibly, or the answers just haven't come yet.

Magus55

August 3, 2005, 05:38 PM

Exactly! Perfectly true. Where did God HIMSELF say anything in the Bible? It's only been the Saints I've heard from.Well, a lot of the Bible ( the majority probably) is the record of what God has said and done. The Bible was written by men, and inspired by God.

Mace

August 3, 2005, 05:43 PM

But how do we know it was inspired by God?

That's just my problem all over again.

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 06:02 PM

But how do we know it was inspired by God?

That's just my problem all over again.

Umm, because the men that wrote it said it was. :Cheeky:

Valmont

August 3, 2005, 06:08 PM

But how do we know it was inspired by God?

We don't. We take it on faith.

Ultimately, there is no proof of Christian faith. You either put your faith in Jesus Christ or you put it somewhere else. That's what it comes down to. And faith is a personal matter. My Christian faith is very important to me. I cannot imagine, if I were to lose it, that my life would be half as fulfilling as it is now. But that fulfilment is its justification. I honestly don't see the point of clinging to an empty faith.

But I also believe that faith is burdensome and hard-won. If you truly do not believe there is no point in making yourself miserable pretending that you do. But don't rush to a conclusion for the sake of reaching one.

Quetzalcoatl

August 3, 2005, 06:12 PM

We don't. We take it on faith.

Ultimately, there is no proof of Christian faith. You either put your faith in Jesus Christ or you put it somewhere else. That's what it comes down to. And faith is a personal matter. My Christian faith is very important to me. I cannot imagine, if I were to lose it, that my life would be half as fulfilling as it is now. But that fulfilment is its justification.

There you have it Mace. He believes because it makes him happy. Are your beliefs making you happy? What’s more important to you, happiness or truth?

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 06:14 PM

But they are more much coniving. Always trying to mess up your wishes or trick you into freeing them! :Cheeky:

Yeah, but at least none has ever resorted to planting some damn tempting tree in the middle of the garden and then letting in a talking serpent to tempt you into eating it...

What if there are no coincidences?

Useless speculation. Why wouldn't there be coincidences, unless you want to credit every event to God's manipulation?

There is some story, don't remember exactly how it goes, but its about a guy who keeps asking God for help, and things ( like a boat or something) shows up to help him, but he dismisses it. Eventually he dies from not taking any of the boats or planes, and he asks God why He didn't help him. God said, what do you think the boat, plane etc. was?

Cute (but made-up) story. And countered by the many doubtlessly true stories where someone, lost at sea, prayed for days and never got so much as a boat or plane. Or where their child died from illness, in spite of prayers and the intervention of doctors. Etc etc. For every supposed "miracle" answer to prayer account, there are countless unrecorded cases where the miracle never came. It works out to chance and happenstance.

Talk about your psychological conspiracy theories.

Just my thoughts. Take it or leave it.

Maybe you just conditioned your mind to believe what was actually God, was in fact only your mind so you dismissed it. If your mind can make you believe your talking to God, it can work the other way too.

Umm, you're basically admitting that God is (equivalent to) a thought in my mind, and pretty much indistinguishable from a thought. Oooo-Kay.

Yeah, but God has never asked me to blow up the London subway.

Irrelevant.

In any case, Allah has never asked a Muslim to blow up the London subway, according to "True Muslims".

Quite impressive authors to make all that up on their own and have it be continuous from 40 others over a 1000 years, and make billions and billions of people believe its actually a fact for 2000 years.

A bit of hyperbole on your part there, but I'll excuse it...

Umm, the institution of the Church has had more to do with that than any particular aspect of the Bible itself.

Who knew illiterate, poor farm boys could become the most influential writers in the history of humanity.

Well, many of them weren't "illiterate, poor farm boys." In fact, I'd hazard a guess that no one who actually wrote a book of the Bible was "illiterate". ;)

You're right on, in any case. It was men that wrote that there Bible. It's amazing what men can do, and what men can believe.

BadBadBad

August 3, 2005, 06:23 PM

We don't. We take it on faith.

Ok, that's not much reason for me to have faith in you that what you're saying is true. Let's back up one level. Who is it that you have faith in that these god stories are true? Can you offer any basis for having faith in them?

ManM

August 3, 2005, 06:25 PM

There you have it Mace. He believes because it makes him happy. Are your beliefs making you happy? What’s more important to you, happiness or truth?
And then there is always both. Mace, don't leave this decision up to message board pundits. Read "The World's Religions" by Huston Smith. Read "A Free Man's Worship" by Bertrand Russell. Read "Orthodoxy" by GK Chesterton. Read John Chrysostom. Read Nietzsche. Read the Tao Te Ching. Read Eusubius. The direction you take in life is your decision. It should not be guided by fear, or by popularity. You will only be doing yourself a disservice if you make your decision haphazardly.

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 06:32 PM

Read An Open Life by Joseph Campbell. Read The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell.

Read Karen Armstrong's autobiographical books, and her book A History of God.

Read The Seven-Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton.

etc etc.

Quetzalcoatl

August 3, 2005, 06:33 PM

Who is this god fella anyway?

ManM

August 3, 2005, 06:36 PM

ManM

August 3, 2005, 06:39 PM

Who is this god fella anyway?
The God that can be spoken is not the eternal God. ;)

Quetzalcoatl

August 3, 2005, 06:40 PM

The God that can be spoken is not the eternal God. ;)

Exactly. Now if only more people would get this

Mageth

August 3, 2005, 06:41 PM

:rolling: At least I tried to offer a variety of perspectives. ;)

Well, I was adding to yours, and the three I recommended do offer a variety of perspectives. Three, to be exact.

I could add more:

Read Julian Baggini's Atheism: A Very Short Introduction

Read the content of the SecWeb Library, including this page:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/

Read Dan Barker's Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist

Read selections from the following thread:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=50582

Read Herman Hesse's Siddhartha.

Read various books on Buddhism.

Read, read, read.

Joan of Bark

August 3, 2005, 08:20 PM

If God is good, the only hell you have to worry about will be of your own making. Work to become a loving person, like Christ, and you will have nothing to worry about.

Mt 10:35-38 (Lk 12:51): For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- a man’s enemies will be the members of his won household.

Lk 14:26: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple.�?

Okay, so where is the 'loving' part of these statements? (And I haven't even covered JC's comments on those who reject his disciple's teachings). :huh:

Magus55

August 3, 2005, 09:45 PM

Mt 10:35-38 (Lk 12:51): For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- a man’s enemies will be the members of his won household.

Lk 14:26: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple.�?

Okay, so where is the 'loving' part of these statements? (And I haven't even covered JC's comments on those who reject his disciple's teachings). :huh:It's a bit of an exaggeration. Jesus isn't so much advocating hating your family, He is pointing out the importance of following Him above all else. God is supposed to be more important than your family.

Wrenny

August 3, 2005, 10:24 PM

This http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/brainwashing.htm
was the article that got me through my deconversion. I was so scared of hell until I read this, and then I just realized how messed up it all was. And now when I have my doubts this http://www.fstdt.com/ helps me realize it can't be real.
(still scared of hell, it's like a scar I just can't get rid of)

Joan of Bark

August 3, 2005, 10:56 PM

It's a bit of an exaggeration. Jesus isn't so much advocating hating your family, He is pointing out the importance of following Him above all else. God is supposed to be more important than your family.

I knew someone would use this apology. I've heard it before, of course. The problem is, you can't PROVE that is what JC meant. In fact, judging by other comments He makes throughout the gospels, I would say the evidence is that Jesus couldn't stand his family, and his bitterness over being a bastard son of Mary spilled over into his preaching about everyone's families.

TexasAWOL

August 3, 2005, 11:09 PM

Umm, you lead with a leash. :rolleyes:

And do you know what a "yoke" is?

Sorry, I am not eloquent with words sometimes...
It was my attempt to make "Mace" feel better.
I get your point.
Thanks for the input....
I guess I was just attempting to let MACE know
that all "Christians" (even though that's not my "label")
are ignoring MACE.

Good to meet you, Mageth... :thumbs:

Kind regards-
TEXASAWOL :wave:

Magus55

August 3, 2005, 11:17 PM

I knew someone would use this apology. I've heard it before, of course. The problem is, you can't PROVE that is what JC meant. In fact, judging by other comments He makes throughout the gospels, I would say the evidence is that Jesus couldn't stand his family, and his bitterness over being a bastard son of Mary spilled over into his preaching about everyone's families.What other comments about His family? Considering Jesus taught to love your neighbor and forgive your enemies, it doesn't seem logical that he would literally teach people to hate their closest family members.

IRON MAN

August 3, 2005, 11:19 PM

Reply to OP.

I can tell you that I personally am agnostic/atheist because when it comes to the crunch, I simply can't just believe.

I hope there is a loving God, and everything we do has a higher purpose, that would be nice. But wishing doesn't necessarily make something so - pity.

I believe it is this wishful thinking, and perhaps fear of Hell, that makes xians finally just say they believe, even though I think they must have doubts.

Furthermore, I can't honestly swallow the idea that a just and loving God is gonna send me to roast on the fires of Hell for eternity for not saying I believe and/or getting my head shoved under the water when truly in my heart, I just can't and don't believe.

I looked for God with all my heart, and didn't find him.

If I ever meet him, I will welcome him, but until then I will not live as a hypocrite.

Ironic, this is the kind of moral fortitude applauded in the bible.

TruthPrevails

August 4, 2005, 12:07 AM

Mace,

The "A Salvation Story" here in IIDB was a very good read.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=72552&page=1

The majority of human beings need to rely on faith, God and religion as
a 'crutch' to prop against the torrents of negative emotions(esp. fear of death consciously or subliminaly) to maintain mental 'homeostasis' to enable it to survive and procreate.

If using reasonable rational understandings, you are able to throw away that 'crutch', you would have evolved one notch above the majority on the evolutionary ladder.

As a transition, try 'mindfulness' exercises, for example by Kabat Zinn.
http://www.mindfulnesstapes.com/
It is buddhist related but one do not have to be a buddhist to practice mindfulness.
Mindfulness is: for example if you are angry now, pause, direct your attention to that emotion in your brain, understand that anger is a hardwired evolutionary survival trait that you have inherited and you have reacted spontaneously. Anger is activated from the limbic or animal brain. Mindfulness teaches one to use the higher human brain (prefrontal cortex) to modulate the lower brain's surge of emotions and the 4Fs.

Joan of Bark

August 4, 2005, 12:18 AM

What other comments about His family? Considering Jesus taught to love your neighbor and forgive your enemies, it doesn't seem logical that he would literally teach people to hate their closest family members.

EVERY comment Jesus makes about (biological) families is negative. Loving your neighbor does not necessarily include your family, who after all, may live in another town. And yes, you are correct, it is NOT logical. Jesus is as inconsistent in his preaching as any other human being.

Mt 8:21-22 (Lk 9:59): Another disciple said to him “lord, first let me go and bury my father�?. But Jesus told him, “follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.�?

Mt 10:21: Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.

Mt 12:46-49 (Lk 8-19, Mk 3-32): While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you�? He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?�? Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.�?

Mt 23:9: And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

Lk 9:61-62: Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family.�? Jesus replied “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.�?

Lk 18:29-30: “I tell you the truth,�? Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life.�?

Now, present me with any quote of Jesus that involves loving your family. You may be able to find one. So who has more evidence on his side?

seebs

August 4, 2005, 12:21 AM

Mt 10:35-38 (Lk 12:51): For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- a man’s enemies will be the members of his won household.

Lk 14:26: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple.�?

Okay, so where is the 'loving' part of these statements? (And I haven't even covered JC's comments on those who reject his disciple's teachings). :huh:

It seems to me that these are out of context quotes. Look at the whole passages they're snipped from, and see what they seem to mean.

For that matter, read more of the other things Jesus said. You might notice that this was not a man enamored of flat and literal statements, but rather, a man who used hyperbole and rhetorical devices.

This argues strongly against quotes without context.

Anne Fidel

August 4, 2005, 12:28 AM

This may sound strange, coming from an atheist...but I would read the Bible if I were you. I was where you are now. I bucked down, prayed a lot, tried to open my heart, and for the first time I read the Bible from cover to cover. My confusion vanished, and whatever little faith I had left vanished.

I did not read it with a hardened heart. I was reading it with an open heart, sure that it would lead me back to God. Didn't exactly work out that way. :p

CowboyHeretic

August 4, 2005, 12:46 AM

Get off the web, get away from humans. Give G-d a chance to work in your life. Pray and tell G-d exactly what you want. Then listen with all of your senses including your reason. Don't look to mankind to give you the answers, man is flawed, what you will get from man is ego-centered. Talk to G-d and don't be afraid. He will not punish you for doubting. Jesus doubted on the cross. Be prepared to be broken in all this, G-d uses broken people, I am one of them. The brokenness will make you closer to Him. He has a path for you that is based on His love for you not on your fear of hell fire. You are His child and He loves you. Trust Him, He is wanting you to reach out to Him.

Joan of Bark

August 4, 2005, 12:48 AM

It seems to me that these are out of context quotes. Look at the whole passages they're snipped from, and see what they seem to mean.

For that matter, read more of the other things Jesus said. You might notice that this was not a man enamored of flat and literal statements, but rather, a man who used hyperbole and rhetorical devices.

This argues strongly against quotes without context.

I HAVE read them in context Seebs. Quite frankly, I'm tired of the patronizing attitude Christians have to anyone who points out any incriminating quote of Jesus'. I have read the NT, ALL OF IT, and I think anyone can see that Jesus had a very negative attitude toward families. All this stuff about "oh, Jesus didn't really mean THAT, he meant something completely different!" is rubbish. Christians are quite happy to take Jesus literally when it suits them.

But I'm happy to read any evidence you have to support the view that Jesus loved his family.

Joan of Bark

August 4, 2005, 12:54 AM

He has a path for you that is based on His love for you not on your fear of hell fire. You are His child and He loves you.

Did he also love those 200,000 + people who were killed by a tsunami in south-east Asia? Or the 30, 000 children who were left orphaned? Or the multitudes who suffer and die every year around the world as a result of GOD-GIVEN diseases? You have a strange view of love.

seebs

August 4, 2005, 02:37 AM

I hope there is a loving God, and everything we do has a higher purpose, that would be nice. But wishing doesn't necessarily make something so - pity.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for..."

I believe it is this wishful thinking, and perhaps fear of Hell, that makes xians finally just say they believe, even though I think they must have doubts.

I certainly have doubts. I doubt all sorts of stuff. So? Doubts don't make a thing false any more than belief makes it true.

Furthermore, I can't honestly swallow the idea that a just and loving God is gonna send me to roast on the fires of Hell for eternity for not saying I believe and/or getting my head shoved under the water when truly in my heart, I just can't and don't believe.

Don't take this wrong, but that's a kind of faith, and it's a kind of faith I think is a lot more useful than fervent, dogmatic, belief. You have gone past the endless recitation of crucial beliefs to a genuine trust that, if God is any good, you do not fear unjust treatment.

I looked for God with all my heart, and didn't find him.

If I ever meet him, I will welcome him, but until then I will not live as a hypocrite.

Ironic, this is the kind of moral fortitude applauded in the bible.

I see no irony here. It sounds wonderful to me. If there is a God, I think He will welcome you, too.

seebs

August 4, 2005, 02:41 AM

I HAVE read them in context Seebs.

Well, then, I think it's interesting how differently we understand them.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of the patronizing attitude Christians have to anyone who points out any incriminating quote of Jesus'. I have read the NT, ALL OF IT, and I think anyone can see that Jesus had a very negative attitude toward families. All this stuff about "oh, Jesus didn't really mean THAT, he meant something completely different!" is rubbish. Christians are quite happy to take Jesus literally when it suits them.

It's not entirely a question of what suits me, but of what I believe to be the most likely interpretation of a given statement.

I don't think Jesus had such a negative attitude towards families.

But I'm happy to read any evidence you have to support the view that Jesus loved his family.

I think I'm going to simply assume that people love their families in the absence of real information to the contrary.

Quetzalcoatl

August 4, 2005, 02:44 AM

I think I'm going to simply assume that people love their families in the absence of real information to the contrary.

IOW you have used your assumption to dismiss the evidence that was presented to you.

Johnny Skeptic

August 4, 2005, 02:46 AM

IRON MAN

August 4, 2005, 03:39 AM

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for..."

Yes, but when it comes to faith there are all sorts of off-the-shelf sayings that put a biased spin on it.

I hope I one day have a million dollars. Faith is if I go out and run up my credit cards because I believe I will have it next week.

They are two distinctly different states of mind.

I certainly have doubts. I doubt all sorts of stuff. So? Doubts don't make a thing false any more than belief makes it true.

Maybe I should have said that I think it unlikely - especially the xian God of the bible.

Don't take this wrong, but that's a kind of faith, and it's a kind of faith I think is a lot more useful than fervent, dogmatic, belief. You have gone past the endless recitation of crucial beliefs to a genuine trust that, if God is any good, you do not fear unjust treatment.

And yet xians would say I am going to Hell, because I haven't been dunked. My philosophy therefore can never coexist with their religion.

I see no irony here. It sounds wonderful to me. If there is a God, I think He will welcome you, too.

Sounds weird, but I actually hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.

seebs

August 4, 2005, 05:06 AM

And yet xians would say I am going to Hell, because I haven't been dunked. My philosophy therefore can never coexist with their religion.

Some of them would say that. I personally think it's missing the point totally.

Sounds weird, but I actually hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.

Good. Much though I suspect God likes you, I don't think He's in any special hurry to meet you. :p

seebs

August 4, 2005, 05:07 AM

IOW you have used your assumption to dismiss the evidence that was presented to you.

No, and would you stop putting words in my mouth? Your hit rate at correctly interpreting my posts seems low, and you seem to consistently err in the direction of being uncharitable.

I don't think I can take a couple of out of context snippets as evidence that someone doesn't love his family.

Quetzalcoatl

August 4, 2005, 05:36 AM

No, and would you stop putting words in my mouth? Your hit rate at correctly interpreting my posts seems low, and you seem to consistently err in the direction of being uncharitable.

Have you ever thought of writing a bit clearer? Just a thought.

I don't think I can take a couple of out of context snippets as evidence that someone doesn't love his family

I think I'm going to simply assume that people love their families in the absence of real information to the contrary.

You were asked to present evidence
But I'm happy to read any evidence you have to support the view that Jesus loved his family.
You refuse to present any evidence and used the above mentioned assumptions to dismiss the claims.

Hedshaker

August 4, 2005, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl
IOW you have used your assumption to dismiss the evidence that was presented to you.

No, and would you stop putting words in my mouth? Your hit rate at correctly interpreting my posts seems low, and you seem to consistently err in the direction of being uncharitable.

I thought Quetzalcoatl hit the nail smack on the head :wave:

Orbit

seebs

August 4, 2005, 06:05 AM

Have you ever thought of writing a bit clearer? Just a thought.

I try, but in the mean time, you might look up the "principle of charity".

You were asked to present evidence

Yup.

You refuse to present any evidence and used the above mentioned assumptions to dismiss the claims.

So, induction only applies when you're arguing against supernaturalism? Come, now! People in general love their families. The most rational thing to do is to assume that any given person does so unless there is evidence to the contrary.

The assumption you complain about is that induction works well enough to serve as a reasonable baseline.

Or, to quote:

You know what you do when you ASSUME, don't you? You make a REASONABLE INFERENCE based on PAST EXPERIENCE.

:)

If you wish to argue that the inference that people generally love their families is a problem, I guess I'd have to know whether your objection is to the general principle of induction or with the claim that most people love their families.

Azathoth

August 4, 2005, 06:18 AM

And yet xians would say I am going to Hell, because I haven't been dunked. My philosophy therefore can never coexist with their religion.Not hell. Since Hell doesn't exist, but you will perish when Armegeddon happens. Any day now... ;)

IRON MAN

August 4, 2005, 06:36 AM

Not hell. Since Hell doesn't exist, but you will perish when Armegeddon happens. Any day now... ;)

So my Jehovah's Witness wife keeps telling me, (they don't have a Hell either).

... unless you count the Kingdom Hall "bible study" meetings. :D

... Where you don't actually study the bible by the way.

... and come to think of it ...

You don't actually study.

You have some cock-head tell you what he thinks he knows about what God wants, while he waves a bible, (if their bastardised version could even be called that), around in the air.

Azathoth

August 4, 2005, 06:44 AM

Oh...yoked with an unbeliever. I'm definitely sorry for you.

P.S. Ask her which one in the picture you are. ;)

http://quotes.watchtower.ca/scans/1997_wt_sept_1_23_large.jpg

IRON MAN

August 4, 2005, 06:53 AM

Oh...yoked with an unbeliever. I'm definitely sorry for you.

P.S. Ask her which one in the picture you are. ;)

http://quotes.watchtower.ca/scans/1997_wt_sept_1_23_large.jpg

I'm not sure, but I think that's her in the car. It looks like her driving anyway. ;)

She must have got cursed by God for marrying me.

Nah, actually she's okay for someone who believes in a psychoticly unbalanced obviously bullshit potentially Kool-aid sucking cult. Really.

Rogernme

August 4, 2005, 08:27 AM

Mace OP: I'm going through such a hard time right now. I'm starting to doubt Christianity. How could it be that God could be real? I've never doubted him like this. But he's never proved himself to me.

I need you all to argue some points of this for me. And I'm sick and tired of hearing "Just have faith." I'm mad right now even thinking about it. I can't have faith when He doesn't say He's there!

But then when I am ready to accept my atheism a taunting thought crosses my mind. What if I am being tempted by Satan? What if he is deceiving me, and it's working? That I'll spend eternity in Hell? It's hard saying this, but the only reason I remain Christian is out of fear of Hell! But this is wrong. Why would a loving God, if he gives us choices, doom us to Hell for simply not believing Him?
Here’s the deal Mace: assuming you’re not aborted, you’re born; you live for a time; and then you die. Doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of guarantees—hope and pray for the best, but don’t be surprised if/when life gets horrible. Happiness, and faith, ebb and flow, but suffering is more or less constant.

I suppose the creator is a hard-ass, maybe somewhat detached at times, maybe all the time, but that’s just the way it is. (And let’s face it Mace, Christian fundies can be real assholes at times, incapable of being real.)

Whenever I’ve discussed atheism, at length, with various so-called atheists, the bottom line for them ultimately always ends up being that a god would never allow all the unnecessary suffering that we constantly see/experience—how the hell could they possibly know what a creator would do? Crybabies. What can I say? Life’s tough, get over it—there’s no devil, no Hell, but there can be shit-loads of suffering, and that can be Hell.

Atheism is a dreadful (and arrogant) philosophy, not to mention silly—one’d have to be blind to actually believe the universe and we are the result of some sort of meaningless random cosmic fart. The greatest, philosophers, artists, scientists, statesmen, etc. are never atheists.

So yeah Mace, life’s a bitch. Get over it. Things could always be worse. At least your not an atheist . . . yet.

BadBadBad

August 4, 2005, 08:59 AM

BadBadBad

August 4, 2005, 09:02 AM

What other comments about His family? Considering Jesus taught to love your neighbor and forgive your enemies, it doesn't seem logical that he would literally teach people to hate their closest family members.

Jesus is God right Magus? So let's put it all together. Love your neighbor, hate your family, and kill strangers.

Kassiana

August 4, 2005, 09:36 AM

But then when I am ready to accept my atheism a taunting thought crosses my mind. What if I am being tempted by Satan? What if he is deceiving me, and it's working?
--Then don't move all the way to atheism. Just deconvert from Christianity and take your time making up your mind about where you will, eventually, fit in on the theological spectrum. That's what I ended up doing when I deconverted.

Believe it or not, you don't need to make up your mind about everything right away. It's okay to be doubtful.

However, one can believe in God and not believe in Hell, of course.
--Thank you for that reminder. :) Those of us here who believe in Gods and don't believe in hell appreciate an occasional reference.

Hedshaker

August 4, 2005, 09:49 AM

Mace OP:
Atheism is a dreadful (and arrogant) philosophy, not to mention silly—one’d have to be blind to actually believe the universe and we are the result of some sort of meaningless random cosmic fart. The greatest, philosophers, artists, scientists, statesmen, etc. are never atheists.

Oh golly gee great wise one, please do take the time and pity to enlighten us lowley mortals with your cosmic knowledge and sage-like words of wisdom, :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Not!

:down:

Orbit

BadBadBad

August 4, 2005, 10:11 AM

Mace OP:
Here’s the deal Mace: assuming you’re not aborted, you’re born; you live for a time; and then you die. Doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of guarantees—hope and pray for the best, but don’t be surprised if/when life gets horrible. Happiness, and faith, ebb and flow, but suffering is more or less constant.

But Mace has a question on the meaning of life in all it's tribulations. If there is the Christian God, there is a meaning and purpose in life. What is it, and why does it require or allow so much suffering. What you seem to be saying is that there is no purpose, so what, get over it? It seems you're saying that God's influence of the world and our lives in it is equivalent to him not existing at all. From what I can see, you're right.

I suppose the creator is a hard-ass, maybe somewhat detached at times, maybe all the time, but that’s just the way it is. (And let’s face it Mace, Christian fundies can be real assholes at times, incapable of being real.)

This is interesting. Again you seem to say that for what anyone can tell, God doesn't exist get over it. Only if he does, he's a hard-ass. That's an atheistic position isn't it?

Whenever I’ve discussed atheism, at length, with various so-called atheists, the bottom line for them ultimately always ends up being that a god would never allow all the unnecessary suffering that we constantly see/experience—how the hell could they possibly know what a creator would do?

Perhaps you should spend some more time discussing this with atheists at length, and this time try listening to what they say. First, you're discussing the existence of any god, and you're limiting our side to only one argument, when there are many. Then you're not addressing at all the arguments against the so-called Christian god. Perhaps you'll spend some more time discussing this at length to realise there are a few arguments against the existence of that particular god as well. This is called a strawman fallacy. It's not very convincing.

Crybabies. What can I say? Life’s tough, get over it—there’s no devil, no Hell, but there can be shit-loads of suffering, and that can be Hell.

Atheism is a dreadful (and arrogant) philosophy, not to mention silly—one’d have to be blind to actually believe the universe and we are the result of some sort of meaningless random cosmic fart. The greatest, philosophers, artists, scientists, statesmen, etc. are never atheists.

Then you're topping it off with a nice colorful ad homenim. Mischaracterizing our position with a strawman fallacy and then beating up the strawman with nasty ad homenims is quite entertaining. Keep it up. It's as fun for us to watch as it is for you to whip yourself up in a frenzy beating up that strawman. Good job! It's just not very convincing.

So yeah Mace, life’s a bitch. Get over it. Things could always be worse. At least your not an atheist . . . yet.

Get over it. That's what we say. Get over all these folks trying to manipulate what you think, putting you down with the doctrine of sin, and trying to control your life through cult-like religious dogma. Life doesn't have to be a bitch.

Rogernme

August 4, 2005, 11:12 AM

OrbitV2: Oh golly gee great wise one, please do take the time and pity to enlighten us lowly mortals with your cosmic knowledge and sage-like words of wisdom,
Sure V2, but it’s really quite straightforward and obvious, so no need for your adulation—

All the available science/evidence indicates that the universe has a beginning, that it was around 14 billion years ago, that entropy at the time of the BB was extremely low, that the initial state of the observable portion of our universe at/near the BB was “very special,�? and that it’s not plausible that these special initial conditions have a dynamical origin (e.g., inflation scenario). So currently anyway, I’m betting on first cause (you know, code word for creator).

Additionally V2, I remain unconvinced, despite QM’s apparent probabilities related to the measurement problem (after all, that’s why they call it a problem) that there’s convincing science/evidence/proof for randomness/chance, other than epistemological randomness (i.e. a lack of knowledge, e.g., coin flips).

Also, best I can tell, throughout history, the greatest scientific discoveries, art, philosophy, etc., isn’t done by atheists.

Moreover, if ever I did conclude that atheism is indeed the only reasonable POV, I doubt I’d admit it—too much of a disadvantage. No inherent right/wrong/good/bad other than whatever the alpha(s) happen to decide whenever they want to decide it. Not that deism/theism necessarily always gives us unequivocally objective right & wrong, it’s just that it gives us a better shot at it than atheism ever has/will.

Finally, as I’ve noted elsewhere, back when I used to be an atheist I started having major doubts when I began to notice that atheists tended to get laid less.

King Rat

August 4, 2005, 11:17 AM

Finally, as I’ve noted elsewhere, back when I used to be an atheist I started having major doubts when I began to notice that atheists tended to get laid less.

Thank the IPU that the statistical pool that you are drawing from, consists of one.

Mageth

August 4, 2005, 11:37 AM

Hedshaker

August 4, 2005, 11:41 AM

OrbitV2:
Sure V2, but it’s really quite straightforward and obvious, so no need for your adulation—

Well one uncalled for insult deserves another, right?

All the available science/evidence indicates that the universe has a beginning, that it was around 14 billion years ago, that entropy at the time of the BB was extremely low, that the initial state of the observable portion of our universe at/near the BB was “very special,�? and that it’s not plausible that these special initial conditions have a dynamical origin (e.g., inflation scenario). So currently anyway, I’m betting on first cause (you know, code word for creator).

No, everything you say above simply indicates we do not know what caused the big bang event to occur, neither does it convey any information regarding the state of existance prior to then. We simply "do not know" and may never know. That is the only honest stance to take on the issue. Positing a creator deity is pure conjecture, usually born out of wishful thinking.

Additionally V2, I remain unconvinced, despite QM’s apparent probabilities related to the measurement problem (after all, that’s why they call it a problem) that there’s convincing science/evidence/proof for randomness/chance, other than epistemological randomness (i.e. a lack of knowledge, e.g., coin flips).

Which proves what, exactly?

Also, best I can tell, throughout history, the greatest scientific discoveries, art, philosophy, etc., isn’t done by atheists.

Maybe, maybe not. Got any hard data? But either way, history isn't done yet. Watch this space ;)

Moreover, if ever I did conclude that atheism is indeed the only reasonable POV, I doubt I’d admit it—too much of a disadvantage. No inherent right/wrong/good/bad other than whatever the alpha(s) happen to decide whenever they want to decide it. Not that deism/theism necessarily always gives us unequivocally objective right & wrong, it’s just that it gives us a better shot at it then atheism ever has/will.

As far as I'm aware atheism is a lack of belief in deities. Nothing more nothing less. You, of course, are entitled to believe whatever takes your fantasy. I simply take exception to unfounded, insulting strawmen such as this:

Atheism is a dreadful (and arrogant) philosophy, not to mention silly—one’d have to be blind to actually believe the universe and we are the result of some sort of meaningless random cosmic fart. The greatest, philosophers, artists, scientists, statesmen, etc. are never atheists.

Finally, as I’ve noted elsewhere, back when I used to be an atheist I started having major doubts when I began to notice that atheists tended to get laid less.

Mmmm, very observant but did you find your luck changed with your belief system?

Orbit

Mageth

August 4, 2005, 11:42 AM

If the message is so loving, why does it use the word hate?

"Hate" in this context is a metaphor for love-but-not-as-much-as-you-love-god in ChristianSpeak. :rolleyes:

capsaicin67

August 4, 2005, 12:05 PM

Based on the evidence we have available....let's see...um....ZILCH-----it is as likely that God is tempting you to reject Satan, whom he may well be misrepresenting, Mace. What if Satan creatd us and for he so loved us that he truly set us free like college kids to explorea nd fuck up and love....and there will simply be a debriefing later [refreshments served in the lobby]. And it is the OT petty God that is trying to confuse you.

As you can see, any story can nearly be concocted---as is evidenced by the Bible itself.

You have a brain. If God made it he expects you to use it. If said brain tells you that humans are unreliable manipulators and occasionally delusional, and that a lot of religious beliefs don't makea lot of sense, and that people hafve mythologized for eons....well, why would he give you a brain if he didn't want you to use it? Even if said brain eventually tells you that He doesn't exist at all. But the key to breaking up the logjam/circlular quicksand is giving yourself permission to think and examine. After that superstition begins collapsing under its own weight.

Rogernme

August 4, 2005, 01:01 PM

OrbitV2: We simply "do not know" and may never know. That is the only honest stance to take on the issue.
Then, assuming you’re “honest,�? you’re an agnostic.�? Thank God you're no longer an atheist! My work is done.

Hedshaker

August 4, 2005, 02:40 PM

OrbitV2:
Then, assuming you’re “honest,�? you’re an agnostic.�? Thank God you're no longer an atheist! My work is done.

Spouting strawmen and twisting peoples words are, of course, no substitute for reasoned argument.... but yeah, I'd say your work is done, no need to embarrass yourself further.

Have a good day :wave:

Orbit

Joan of Bark

August 4, 2005, 04:16 PM

You refuse to present any evidence and used the above mentioned assumptions to dismiss the claims.

Seebs, Seebs, Seebs *shakes head ruefully*. I HAVE presented evidence, in the form of quotes from scripture attributed to Jesus. (See my earlier posts in this thread). You keep writing that I'm taking them out of context. Fine, put them in context, USING SCRIPTURE. Quote me passages where Jesus states that we should love our families (not neighbors), but love Him more. I haven't found such a passage, which leads me to believe you are intrepreting the passage in question and others like it in a way that fits with what you want to believe.

BTW, we are a little off topic for this thread, so I suggest we move this debate to Biblical criticism.

ManM

August 4, 2005, 04:44 PM

If you read the story of St. Markella of Chios, you will see why Jesus said what he did.

Joan of Bark

August 4, 2005, 07:10 PM

If you read the story of St. Markella of Chios, you will see why Jesus said what he did.

Okay, I just read it. So what? Are you saying that because SOME parents are despicable we should all hate our parents? Or are you making some other point? If so, please edify me.

Johnny Skeptic

August 4, 2005, 10:13 PM

Magus55

August 4, 2005, 10:22 PM

Now really, Christians, couldn't God make it easy for Mace and a lot of other people and clearly reveal himself beyond any doubt. What in the world would be wrong with that? Would you object if God did so? Of course not. You would welcome it. That would result in more people going to heaven and less people going to hell. Would that not be a good thing?
Well aside from humans being inable to see God's face, and it isn't time for Jesus to return to Earth, if God's existence were a proven fact, it kinda takes away the whole trust and faith concepts. Who wouldn't believe in God even if merely to avoid the now factually known existence of Hell? God wants people to come to Him on their own, not because they essentially have no other choice.

CowboyHeretic

August 4, 2005, 11:37 PM

"Don't look to mankind to give you the answers, man is flawed, what you will get from man is ego-centered."

In other words, don't listen to CowboyHeretic? ;)

Yes. There is strong spiritual warfare taking place here. This person is a wounded soldier. The wounded need to heal. It's not ethical to shoot the wounded now is it? :eek:

Joan of Bark

August 4, 2005, 11:44 PM

Who wouldn't believe in God even if merely to avoid the now factually known existence of Hell?

????!!!?! :huh:

IRON MAN

August 5, 2005, 12:50 AM

????!!!?! :huh:

My Spider Sense is tingling ...

I suspect that statement has something to do with a bunch of guys digging a hole in Siberia (http://www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.htm)? :rolleyes:

tangiellis

August 5, 2005, 12:56 AM

How do you work out what you believe?
By finding a balance between mind and heart.
Why does it take so long?
It takes as long as any person needs to find balance. For some, finding balance is simple. For others, finding it is difficult. It depends on the indivdual.
What happens if you die early when more time was required?
The question isn't whether more time is required. The question is how much death are you willing to accept before you finally meet the ultimate end of this life.
Because if you aren't willing to make the most of every single moment that you have while you have it, well, death is already at your doorstep. Lack of time is just the excuse for inaction.

If I'm not getting any definitive answers, why should I believe?
You shouldn't. But you should keep seaching for answers. When you find them, you will know because there will be balance within yourself. Peace within yourself. No one can answer your questions for you. Only you can do that.
If hell is a bad reason, what is a good reason?
Heaven and hell are of our own making.

Hell is when we allow fear, desperation, anger, depression and negativity to infect our world, to cloud our eyes, to jade our thinking and pollute our minds. We become people that react blindly and impulsively, creating situations around us that spiral out of control and drag others into our black holes of negativity.

Heaven is when we allow our hearts to open to love and opportunity. And that begins with the hardest task of all: learning to love YOURSELF. Because we are often projecting our inner hells onto a neutral outside world. When you are right within, the world is right without. Thus the door to heaven opens and we see light everywhere we look.

Neither of these journeys is wrong or right. The paths are neutral.

The goal is to see that the ultimate path is the one that lies in the center of both of these. Find your personal balance and you will find peace. Find your individual balance and you will find what we suppose is "God."

But what evoke balance for you may invoke chaos for me. To each his own.

When did God say he is good? How do you know who he will condemn to hell or not? Can you offer us anything as to why we should have faith in you that all these things you're saying are true?
Have faith in no man. Have faith in yourself instead.

My two cents,
Tangie

Kassiana

August 5, 2005, 08:25 AM

That would result in more people going to heaven and less people going to hell.
No one goes to hell. Hell is a human revenge fantasy. It has nothing to do with any Gods, but with petty, jealous, evil human beings.

Barbarian

August 5, 2005, 09:27 AM

Also, best I can tell, throughout history, the greatest scientific discoveries, art, philosophy, etc., isn’t done by atheists.
But absolutely all scientific discoveries are done in atheist moments of the discoverers, since in their theist moments they chant 'Goddidit', and do not look for an explanation.

ManM

August 5, 2005, 10:07 AM

Okay, I just read it. So what? Are you saying that because SOME parents are despicable we should all hate our parents? Or are you making some other point? If so, please edify me.
Jesus was granting permission to disobey parents for a good cause. It's a point we understand to be common sense now, but contrast it to the older idea that disobedience was a bad thing, no matter what the reason. And if you are hung up on the word "hate", consider what Markella's father must have thought of his daughter. Why wouldn't she obey him? From his perspective, her actions might have appeared to be hateful. What about children who gave up their inheritance for the sake of the poor? From their parents perspective (especially in those days), that might appear to be hateful. Jesus wasn't preaching that we should hate our parents. He was telling us that we should not give them ultimate authority, and that we should not feel guilty for hurting their feelings if we are doing so to follow the good.

Mageth

August 5, 2005, 12:14 PM

Well aside from humans being inable to see God's face,

God has a face? See, you do believe in an anthropomorphic God.

and it isn't time for Jesus to return to Earth,

How would you know? According to the Bible, no man knows the time. Therefore, you can't know that it's not the time.

if God's existence were a proven fact, it kinda takes away the whole trust and faith concepts.

Sooo...once you get to Heaven, "trust and faith", along with "time", will be no more?

Who wouldn't believe in God even if merely to avoid the now factually known existence of Hell?

I agree with the other poster: WTF? You gotta explain this one, Magus.

I'll be generous and assume you mean that, if God showed himself, then we'd know for a fact that Hell existed. Well, that's kinda odd. Why would simply knowing God exists make it a "fact" that Hell exists? You'd have to also know that the existence of that God requires Hell to exist, or to have that God reveal to you that Hell factually exists.

But what if that God revealed himself and said "Don't worry, there isn't any Hell. Now, as to those idiots who've been saying there is, in an attempt to scare you into believing. Hmm. I might just have to make a Hell of sorts for them..."

God wants people to come to Him on their own, not because they essentially have no other choice.

Magus, according to your own words, we don't have any other choice. No one, knowing Hell existed, would choose Hell. And that's according to your own words:

Who wouldn't believe in God even if merely to avoid the now factually known existence of Hell?

So if God and Hell are known to factualy exist, then according to you, Hell is not a "choice", or at least not one that any sane person would make (and why would God condemn an insane person to hell?), the same as not being a choice in my opinion.

So, according to you, who believe that both God and Hell factually exist, there is no choice.

However, since it is the case that we don't have enough evidence to establish God and Hell as factually existent, a condition which you've defended as the correct condition for a variety of reasons, we lack what we need to make an informed choice. I can't choose between two states (choose God and go to heaven/reject God and go to hell) without sufficient reason to believe that the states actually exist. If I lack belief in God because of a lack of evidence for that God's existence (a reasonable position given that God has purposely not given us enough evidence to convince us He exists, according to your theology), then I can neither choose nor reject that God. Therefore, I fail to see where there is a "choice" for me to make.

Joan of Bark

August 5, 2005, 02:09 PM

Jesus was granting permission to disobey parents for a good cause. It's a point we understand to be common sense now, but contrast it to the older idea that disobedience was a bad thing, no matter what the reason. And if you are hung up on the word "hate", consider what Markella's father must have thought of his daughter. Why wouldn't she obey him? From his perspective, her actions might have appeared to be hateful. What about children who gave up their inheritance for the sake of the poor? From their parents perspective (especially in those days), that might appear to be hateful. Jesus wasn't preaching that we should hate our parents. He was telling us that we should not give them ultimate authority, and that we should not feel guilty for hurting their feelings if we are doing so to follow the good.

Then why doesn't he SAY that? Again, you are merely interpreting this passage the way you want to. All these excuses you make are without scripture to back them up. I, on the other hand, have quoted many passages by Jesus to support my hypothesis that he was anti-family. All I am asking is that you refer me to some quotes by JC that support your contention that He wants us to love our parents, but love Him more.

ManM

August 5, 2005, 02:23 PM

Then why doesn't he SAY that? Again, you are merely interpreting this passage the way you want to. All these excuses you make are without scripture to back them up. I, on the other hand, have quoted many passages by Jesus to support my hypothesis that he was anti-family. All I am asking is that you refer me to some quotes by JC that support your contention that He wants us to love our parents, but love Him more.
Jesus wasn't trying to communicate a point to you. He was trying to communicate a point to the people he was actually talking to. We live in a different time, in a different culture, with a different language, different customs, different presuppositions, etc... Why in the world would you expect his words to carry the same connotations and have the same meaning to us in our language, in our time, and in our culture? Oy.

Hedshaker

August 5, 2005, 02:29 PM

Jesus wasn't trying to communicate a point to you. He was trying to communicate a point to the people he was actually talking to. We live in a different time, in a different culture, with a different language, different customs, different presuppositions, etc... Why in the world would you expect his words to carry the same connotations and have the same meaning to us in our language, in our time, and in our culture? Oy.

Then how come you can interpret it so crystal clearly?

Orbit

ManM

August 5, 2005, 02:43 PM

Then how come you can interpret it so crystal clearly?

Orbit
It's not my interpretation. I rely on what the Church has historically taught.

Hedshaker

August 5, 2005, 02:54 PM

It's not my interpretation. I rely on what the Church has historically taught.

Yes, yes but you said:

Jesus wasn't trying to communicate a point to you. He was trying to communicate a point to the people he was actually talking to. We live in a different time, in a different culture, with a different language, different customs, different presuppositions, etc...

So how come the Church knows exactly what Jesus meant, in spite of "different time, in a different culture, with a different language, different customs, different presuppositions, etc..."?

Is it possible that the Church might be a tad biased in it's interpretation?

Orbit

Mace

August 5, 2005, 02:59 PM

ManM

August 5, 2005, 03:02 PM

So how come the Church knows exactly what Jesus meant, in spite of "different time, in a different culture, with a different language, different customs, different presuppositions, etc..."?

Is it possible that the Church might be a tad biased in it's interpretation?
Considering that the Church was founded by Jesus's disciples, developed out of the same culture he was addressing, in the same language, with the same customs and same presuppositions, I think it is a much more reliable source for interpretations.

Hedshaker

August 5, 2005, 03:04 PM

Considering that the Church was founded by Jesus's disciples, developed out of the same culture he was addressing, in the same language, with the same customs and same presuppositions, I think it is a much more reliable source for interpretations.

Ah, now I was under the impression the canon was much later

Sarpedon

August 5, 2005, 03:09 PM

But let me throw in one little tidbit, perhaps the only sure fire thing I know. How can we argue with the fact that Christians just have faith? We can't scientifically disprove or prove God. Neither can they, but how can we argue with faith?

Why do we need to? Some people believe things that are wrong. My great grandmother believed that the moon landing was faked, that airplanes can't really fly, that if you leave electrical cords on the floor, the electricity will flow out and be wasted, and that black people are born with tails. She was incorrect. My father offered to take her to the airport to see the planes take off. She wouldn't go. The christians are incorrect. You can show them whatever evidence you please, they'll ignore it. Most people believe what they were brought up to believe, true or not. Some people change by thinking and questioning and investigating. Others don't. We can't argue against faith, and we don't need to, because faith is nothing but prejudice. End of story.

Paradox

August 5, 2005, 03:23 PM

Please help me. I'm so confused right now... :(
Hi Mace, Like so many others here, I've been where you are too. First and foremost, I certainly sympathise with what you're going through. I have so much to say about this, it's very difficult to know where to start.

From what I've seen so far in this thread, the most helpful input has come from Mageth. One particular comment he made, I feel, is of particular importance, so I don't mind repeating it.

Don't let anyone convince you that you can simply choose to believe.
What you believe is based on years of experience and whole plethora of different things - you can't simply change it on a whim.

If God is real, he condones what you're doing in Scripture though...
"Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves…"
(2 Corinthians 13:5)

But I do understand where you're coming from. In your position, it certainly seems a worry that, if you step outside of God's umbrella, you're allowing the devil to get in and snatch you away completely. It's a toughy for sure.

Only one bit of advice springs to mind right now...

Be true to yourself. What do you really believe, deep down?
If you find that you dont really believe it, and you simply sweep this under the carpet of faith, you'll find yourself to be just another luke warm, ineffectual Christian. One way or another, though it's extremely difficult, you must resolve this. I'm sure that you'll find plenty of genuine people who will support you, but beware of those that dogmatically push their own personal viewpoint (Atheists and Christians alike).

Joan of Bark

August 5, 2005, 03:38 PM

It's not my interpretation. I rely on what the Church has historically taught.

First of all, my apologies to Mace for going off on a tangent on this thread. Feel free to ignore this argument.

Some points:

1) Which church? I can't find any two who can agree with each other on all of scripture.

2) Even if the 'church' (whichever one you are referring to) has historically taught something, they still need to back it up with evidence. I take all authority with a grain of salt.

3) Church teachings have changed over time.

Joan of Bark

August 5, 2005, 03:48 PM

Very interesting debate.

But let me throw in one little tidbit, perhaps the only sure fire thing I know. How can we argue with the fact that Christians just have faith? We can't scientifically disprove or prove God. Neither can they, but how can we argue with faith?

We can't. But just remember, 'faith' does not have to only mean Christian faith. Hindus can have faith in Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Germans had faith in Hitler. Jim Jones' followers had faith in their reverend. Some people have faith that they will win the lottery. And I have faith that the computer screen I am typing this on will not suddenly explode and send razor sharp splinters into my face.

There is nothing inherently wrong with faith, but I get annoyed when Christians play the faith card after they realize the evidence is not supporting them. In my experience, Christians only see faith as valid when it is their faith.