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Matthew_Green
August 3, 2005, 11:30 PM
Hey all,

I wanted to explain something interesting that I have come to realize these past few months. Earlier this year I decided to re-educate myself on the scientific case for evolution. I printed out Douglas Theobold's essay on the "29 Evidences for Evolution". As I was reading it, I was able to see answered many questions about evolution that were unanswered when I was a creationist. For instance, I saw very good answers to objections to the argument from vestigial organs. I saw the creationist arguments against vestigial organs and good answers.

However, since my high school years, I always had problems with the evidence for evolution; none of it seemed particularly compelling. For instance, I thought comparative homology was explained just as good by creation as it was by evolution so it wasn't really evidence of anything. Same with comparative embryology, vestigial organs, biogeography, fossil sequences, etc. Even after I deconverted from Christianity and become a freethinker ( I was a Deist at first) I still wasn't all that impressed with the case for evolution, especially comparative anatomy. I believed that evolution had happened but the traditional case for it wasn't all too compelling, or so I thouight.

When I heard Stephen Jay Gould or others appeal to "imperfections" in nature, I would think "Well that does no good; Creationists will appeal to original designs gone bad, fully functional organs going vestigial, 'flood biogeography'..etc" and for quite some time I was simply unimpressed with the case cited in favor of evolution.

Now all of this has changed. I came to realize something about Creationism that self-destructs and leaves evolution as the only logical interpretation of comparative homology, embryology, vestigial organs, biogeography, etc. I realize that Christians believe that God cannot lie. God cannot lie, God cannot be mistaken, God cannot be imperfect. Therefore, creationists have to believe that anything spoken of by God is a necessary truth in the Bible; there's no possible way it can be false.

Here's the rub: if the creation story in Genesis were indeed true, then it must be a necessary historical explanation for how the universe and life began. But yet creationists like those at Answers in Genesis believe that creationism and evolution are two different ways of interpreting the facts of science. The problem is that if biblical creationism were a necessary historical explanation, then no other interpretation should be possible. Creationism, as a necessary historical explanation should necessarily be true and no other interpretation can possibly be valid. The fact that it's possible to infer common descent and evolutionary change from living organisms and fossils shows that Creationism checkmates itself.

Creationism, by Christian reckoning, is a necessary explanation because it was spoken by God (who is a necessary being) and therefore it should be logically impossible to infer evolution because biblical creationism is necessarily true. Therefore, no other interpretation of the facts should be possible. In fact, God should've desgined all of life and living anatomy to make it impossible to infer evolution at all. Thus Creationism seems to me to refute itself and leaves evolution is the best, if not only, rational inference of comparative homology, embryology, vestigial organs, biogeography, etc.

I embarrassed that it took so long, but now I find the case for evolution more persuasive than ever before!

Matthew

RBH
August 3, 2005, 11:37 PM
MAtthew wrote In fact, God should've desgined all of life and living anatomy to make it impossible to infer evolution at all. That's an interesting twist on the Omphalos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis) argument for the appearance of age of the world/universe. A creationist response might be "God made the world that way to test your faith." The immediate inference that follows from that view is that God is a deceiver.

RBH

Phil McCracken
August 4, 2005, 01:23 AM
I don't think that naturalism/empiricism necessarily disproves the "supernatural", merely casts it in a different light.

Matthew, I think you are asking the right questions, and I wouldn't even demand from yourself an instant answer on certain issues. Certain things will sift upwards if you simply observe the world with curiosity.

The funny thing I found, when I more or less gave up belief in a personal God, was that my appreciation of the mystery and wonder of the universe actually increased. This is in direct contradiction to what religious dogmatics will tell you.

Doubting Didymus
August 4, 2005, 05:13 AM
I don't get it. Historians have different interpretations of history all the time. Just because only one of them is ever actually correct at a time doesn't stop all the others from coming to different conclusions.

sbaii
August 4, 2005, 06:03 PM
This is not about interpretation. It is about the evidence from nature which then suggests the question,"Why would an omniscient, omnipotent Creator make such a jumble of nature with vestigial organs and bones and pandas' thumbs growing out of the armbones,etc.?" And why do humans have so many genes which we don't need but lower organisms do need?

Matthew_Green
August 5, 2005, 01:26 AM
I don't think that naturalism/empiricism necessarily disproves the "supernatural", merely casts it in a different light.

My argument is not that naturalism/empiricism refutes or disproves the "supernatural", but rather, biblical creationism seems to self-destruct because it's supposed to be a necessary historical explanation and the fact that other theories of life's history can be inferred that require no supernatural or intelligent-causation shows that Creationism is self-refuting.

One can construct, for instance, a more deistic theory of evolution if one was a Deist perhaps. But my argument was against biblical creationism specifically.

Matthew

Matthew_Green
August 5, 2005, 01:31 AM
This is not about interpretation. It is about the evidence from nature which then suggests the question,"Why would an omniscient, omnipotent Creator make such a jumble of nature with vestigial organs and bones and pandas' thumbs growing out of the armbones,etc.?" And why do humans have so many genes which we don't need but lower organisms do need?

I think you misunderstand my argument here. My argument is that creationists, like those at Answers in Genesis are trying to have it both ways. Creationists like Jonathan Sarfati believe that God is a necessary being, cannot lie, cannot be mistaken, and yet peddle this nonsense that creationism and evolution (-ism??) are just two interpretations of the same facts depending on whether you adopt the Christian worldview or the secular worldview. My argument is that Creationists cannot have their cake and eat it too, because if they follow the logical implications of their own theology, they will find it that God would be bound to make Creationism the only explanation that is possible to infer logically and the fact that evolution can be inferred from the lines of evidence discussed in Theobold's essay and other books on the case for evolution put the lie to this kind of reasoning. In essence, Creationism refutes itself.

Matthew

Doubting Didymus
August 5, 2005, 01:48 AM
But the creationists dispute that the evidences conlude evolution. So to a creationist, creation is the only explanation that is possible and evolutionists are simply mistaken. I don't see anything in literalist theology that prevents men being mistaken.

Styrofoam
August 5, 2005, 02:21 AM
Some do. There are a number of Creationist postitions I've heard. One is that the evidence for evolution itself is wrong, yes, but many creationists say that they are two possible interpretations and that there is a debate currently in science. This argument is used more often in the political sphere to get creationism into schools, not because it is right, but because it is a competing theory.

Doubting Didymus
August 5, 2005, 02:28 AM
Yes... but when you say there are competing theories, you aren't neccessarily saying you think they are equally good. You can still say 'multiple interpretations exist', while remaining assured that yours is actually the one that is true.

Styrofoam
August 5, 2005, 02:37 AM
Again you are correct. The problem is that these creationists (the competing theories people) are corrupting science. Science tests theories and when one is proven incorrect, that theory is gone. Poof. You shouldn't even bring it up again. Never mind the fact that creationist scienitific claims have been proven false, these creationists are appealing to the emotions of the masses who feel science is too esoteric. They cry "Why can't you just expose the children to our theory? Give them the facts and let them decide." That's not the way science works. Also, just as a little aside, there are two kinds of claims by creationists. Some are scientific (Irreducible Complexity for example) and some are not scientific (Common designer combined with unknown motives of the designer). The scientific claims have all been disproven. The non scientific claims can't be disproven, which is precisely why they aren't scientific.

And if we're not teaching science in science class, why do we even have science class.

travc
August 5, 2005, 08:04 AM
Seem to remember some story about god saying "sacrifice your son" and then at the last moment saying "woah man, I was just kidding... I didn't think you'd actually do it!"... paraphrasing of course.

God not a deciver? That isn't in any Christian theology I know of.

Peez
August 5, 2005, 12:13 PM
Hi Matthew_Green,

If I may just go on a bit of a tangent: with regards to the evidence for evolution, it is true that one can see such evidence as also being consistent with certain brands of creationism. The important point is that any conceivable observation will be consistent with some brand of creationism. In contrast, there are very few conceivable observations that are consistent with evolution. That is, evolution is in principle empirically falsifiable (it is possible, in principle, to disprove evolution with observations of the universe if evolution is false). Thus, it would be very surprising if we found evidence consistent with evolution if evolution was false. On the other hand, it is not at all surprising that evidence is consistent with some brand of creationism even if creationism is false.

Peez

Peez
August 5, 2005, 12:28 PM
travc:
God not a deciver? That isn't in any Christian theology I know of.Well, nobody's perfect. ;) 1 Kings 22 (KJV)
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV)
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Ezekiel 14 (KJV)
9And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 1 Kings 22 (KJV)
23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.Ski,,ed from Biblical Inconsistencies (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html).

Peez

Spanish_Inquisitor
August 5, 2005, 01:14 PM
Seem to remember some story about god saying "sacrifice your son" and then at the last moment saying "woah man, I was just kidding... I didn't think you'd actually do it!"... paraphrasing of course.


Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."

SI - quoting my favorite biblical scholar :notworthy