If Satan shows up.

[steamer]

If the biblical character Satan (Not to be confused with the more evil character known as Yahweh) were to reveal himself to mankind, this would probably add some credence to biblical claims, would it not?

Now it would appear that if this being exists as the "Riddler" to Yahweh's "Batman", that this character would do everything it could do to thwart Yahweh's will. It appears that it is Yahweh's will that he not somehow violate mankinds ability to make important decisions based on insufficient information and so he does not reveal himself.

Satan though, as the arch enemy, ought to just reveal himself so that god's will could be thwarted. In the bible it is mentioned that Satan tools around all over the earth, so I don't understand why he doesn't just make himself known as a real entity. Of course, if he is as fictional as Yahweh there is no question as to why he doesn't do this.

[advancedatheist]

I would like to hear satan's side of the story. The "official" version begs so many questions that I have to wonder if satan has a legitimate grievance against god.

[DBT]

But Satan is the prince of lies isn't he...could he be believed?

On the other hand Yahweh.....uhm never mind.

1 Kings 22:23
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

[BadBadBad]

If the biblical character Satan (Not to be confused with the more evil character known as Yahweh) were to reveal himself to mankind, this would probably add some credence to biblical claims, would it not?

Now it would appear that if this being exists as the "Riddler" to Yahweh's "Batman", that this character would do everything it could do to thwart Yahweh's will. It appears that it is Yahweh's will that he not somehow violate mankinds ability to make important decisions based on insufficient information and so he does not reveal himself.

Satan though, as the arch enemy, ought to just reveal himself so that god's will could be thwarted. In the bible it is mentioned that Satan tools around all over the earth, so I don't understand why he doesn't just make himself known as a real entity. Of course, if he is as fictional as Yahweh there is no question as to why he doesn't do this.

If Satan revealed himself, how would you know it was Satan as compared to God? Perhaps this is another reason why he should reveal himself. Christians would likely see Satan as God. I mean how could you fault them? Then they'd worship Satan instead of God. Satan's will will be done.

[Queen of Swords]

I would like to hear satan's side of the story.

So would I. Regarding whether he was lying or not, it doesn't seem to me that he lied to Adam and Eve in Genesis, so I'd be interested in questioning him anyway.

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

In the bible it is mentioned that Satan tools around all over the earth, so I don't understand why he doesn't just make himself known as a real entity.

Becauseth my soneth, Satan's greatest deception is to convinceeth you that he does notheth existeth,

Moo-har-har-har!






















har?

[Angrillori]

It's been mentioned on this forum before, but based strictly on a reading of the bible, it sure does seem likely that it was the evil being that wrote the bible, and that the fellow who got labeled Satan has just been rather horribly slandered.

Who was honest in the Garden of Eden?
Who lied?
Who commited genocide on several occasions?
Whose only answer to any problem involves blood and death?
Whose wrath can only be appeased by blood sacrifices (including cuddly fuzzy animals)?
Who shows anger at the drop of a hat?
Who cheats in wrestling matches?
Who sends bears to kill children for mocking his followers?


Based only on a reading of the bible, the case can be made that the good one may have just taken his ball and left w/ a third of his friends, leaving the local bully to write a book in his absence.

[Killer Mike]

Little Nickey's dad is Satan and he has to find his brother and bring him back to Hell and save his father Satan :Cheeky:

[CowboyHeretic]

Steamer,
I would suggest that you get yourself a job working in prison for "gun grade" felons. You will meet many of Satans servants. There's nothing like listening to a convict telling other convicts his crime story about how sweet some six year olds ass was or how some defenseless woman cried while he was raping her, to teach you about evil. I had a convict file a Grievance once because he was mad that his wife was divorcing him while he was locked up in prison - he was in for raping thier ten year old son. Which side do you want to be on?

[Angrillori]

Strange how many of those guys are theists of some sort though, isn't it?

[advancedatheist]

So would I. Regarding whether he was lying or not, it doesn't seem to me that he lied to Adam and Eve in Genesis, so I'd be interested in questioning him anyway.

If satan really wanted to screw with god, he should have told Eve and Adam to eat from the Tree of Life first!

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

If satan really wanted to screw with god, he should have told Eve and Adam to eat from the Tree of Life first!
Live forever and ever without any knowledge? Sounds of Christianity :eek:

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

Steamer,
I would suggest that you get yourself a job working in prison for "gun grade" felons. You will meet many of Satans servants. There's nothing like listening to a convict telling other convicts his crime story about how sweet some six year olds ass was or how some defenseless woman cried while he was raping her, to teach you about evil. I had a convict file a Grievance once because he was mad that his wife was divorcing him while he was locked up in prison - he was in for raping thier ten year old son. Which side do you want to be on?
Bad people do not prove the existence of Satan. They only prove the existence of...bad people.

In every population you will find a percentage that are not within the norm. Other animals, plants, etc. And that's just from a biological point of view. With humans, layer in the negative social and cultural factors, then in particular, add religion. Prisons and their populations become inevitable.

SI

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

I would suggest that you get yourself a job working in prison for "gun grade" felons. You will meet many of Satans servants. There's nothing like listening to a convict telling other convicts his crime story about how sweet some six year olds ass was or how some defenseless woman cried while he was raping her, to teach you about evil. I had a convict file a Grievance once because he was mad that his wife was divorcing him while he was locked up in prison - he was in for raping thier ten year old son. Which side do you want to be on?
Neither. Remember this is a thread about a fictional character. The six year olds ass, the convicts and you maybe very well be real, but the motivation isn't some God or demigod. It's a pity that these things may very well be a reality for people, but to put them in the hands of people who actualy believe that a Satan is behind [or in them] is a pretty henious crime in and of itself.

Raping anything is about power, being in control...

Strange how many of those guys are theists of some sort though, isn't it?
On both sides of the bars.

[capsaicin67]

Antisocials *because they lack conscience* are often some of the quickest to appreciate the beautiful and magnificently effective irony of using godtalk to perpetrate *their* will. Because they see how easily suckered people are by it and what a mindfuck it does on people with anemic critical thinking and verbal skills. As has been said---sure there are bad people but all they prove is their own existence.

And even if God and Satan exist---there is no proof that Satan has not been locked up in some other dimensiony tower in an iron mask by the antisocial Father described without shame in the Bible.

I do think that Satan's not showing himself can be creatively stylized as trying to prevent us from knowing he exists so we don't know God exists. But there are lots of other potential storylines we could conjure too, and the easiest always is at the end of the day----the universe works as if there are no gods precisely because there are no gods.

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

<now why did it do that?>

[CowboyHeretic]

I would probably belive that bad people simply represent bad people. I am relating to you about people who live for evil. Murderers who kill for the sheer joy of killing, rapists who get more turned on by the suffering of the victim, thieves who steal indiscriminately,I could go on.
Satan is not a fictional charachter.

[whichphilosophy]

If Satan showed up, just as Jesus showed up, the problem is who would believe them?

What would the average persons reaction be if they were approached by someone who said, "I`m Satan, what`s your name?"

In my time, I`ve met one person who said he´s Jesus, one who said her boyfriend was, and one lady who claimed she was God. So if the real Satan or Jesus came along I doubt if I or many others would believe them.

[Angrillori]

I would probably belive that bad people simply represent bad people. I am relating to you about people who live for evil. Murderers who kill for the sheer joy of killing, rapists who get more turned on by the suffering of the victim, thieves who steal indiscriminately,I could go on.
Satan is not a fictional charachter.

And the bulk of these murderers, rapists, beasts? You guessed it, theists.

God is a fictional character.

[CowboyHeretic]

I hope you misguided and naive lambs get to meet a real criminal up close. I also hope that you don't get hurt but you could stand a dose of reality. Try visiting a prison, they are open to the public via tour groups believe it or not. Make pals.

[Angrillori]

I hope you misguided and naive lambs get to meet a real criminal up close. I also hope that you don't get hurt but you could stand a dose of reality. Try visiting a prison, they are open to the public via tour groups believe it or not. Make pals.

And every one of them, more evidence that god doesn't exist.

Your arrogance, while unsurprising, is still disappointing. You do enjoy painting with your broad brush. I would imagine you would stop someday after each and every one of your blanket assertions about what atheists do and don't believe, do and don't know, have and haven't done, has turned out to be completely 100% wrong. Seriously. Have you made a generalization about atheists as a whole EVER and had it turn out to be right? I'm pretty sure you haven't. And it definitely hasn't been anywhere I saw. The simple point is that not only have some of us seen/met some of America's most hardened criminals, some of us have worked directly with them in the penal system. Amazing how many of 'em believe in god.

[capsaicin67]

I hope you misguided and naive lambs get to meet a real criminal up close. I also hope that you don't get hurt but you could stand a dose of reality. Try visiting a prison, they are open to the public via tour groups believe it or not. Make pals.

As far as I can see no one is denying that there are awful, nasty, abhorrent human beings---why would we need evidence of that which we are in agreement with you on? The disagreement is about what the root causes are and if it has any relevancy to the existence of supernatural beings----right?

[Eldarion Lathria]

I hope you misguided and naive lambs get to meet a real criminal up close. I also hope that you don't get hurt but you could stand a dose of reality. Try visiting a prison, they are open to the public via tour groups believe it or not. Make pals.

Some years ago, coming from a party, my wife and I did meet real criminals up close, six of them. Three of them are doing life in a State Pen in Pennsylvania. The other three have been feeding worms since that night.

If Satan shows up, we hang him too. Right next to Yahooey, the abomination of the Israelites.

Eldarion Lathria

[capsaicin67]

I'm with you. I've seen plenty of "evil". I don't deserve to see any more and hope no one else does either. Esp not to help me prop up some desire to believe in magical beings and purpose in a universe that is determined to be amoral and persistent.

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

...you misguided and naive lambs...
Pot.Kettle.Black

SI

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

I would probably belive that bad people simply represent bad people. I am relating to you about people who live for evil. Murderers who kill for the sheer joy of killing, rapists who get more turned on by the suffering of the victim, thieves who steal indiscriminately,I could go on.
But you do live in your own insulated world
Quit your job, immediatley

These people you work with or guard or whatever it is you do [hopefully not their psychiatrist] have mental disorders, very severe ones, not a demon or Head of demons afflicting them.
Or does anyone who is mentally challenged evil, Satanic in your mind?
The child rapist were probably raped as children, and no it doesn't condone their actions now, but I'd say we need people around them who can actualy help them who won't tell them their evil, satanic worshippers who can be saved by JesusAllahBuddha.
Hopefully your not some spiritual conselor to these people with your "everyone's Satanic who rejects Gdashd" mindset. This might be all right for a televangelist, but not someone who is in charge of or has any connection to people who rape, especially children.

Maybe this is how they are getting out of prison and let back on the street, because they con the people who should know better that they're "saved" or "born again"

Satan is not a fictional charachter.
Your right. Character wasn't the right word, how about caricature.

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

I hope you misguided and naive lambs get to meet a real criminal up close.
We might just meet.

I also hope that you don't get hurt but you could stand a dose of reality.
Reality is some people with mental disorders do believe Satan made them rape and kill. Wonder where they get such ideas? Probably from some guided knows everything about the human mind authourity, who blesses people when they sneeze!


Try visiting a prison, they are open to the public via tour groups believe it or not.
If I do and one of your charges tells me Satan made him rape and kill, I'll do my best to tell him otherwise, but seeing it doesn't work with people that aren't apparently suffering from a mental disease, I'll just end up waisting my time, theirs, and yours...
Your Satan, and theirs will still be very fictional.

Make pals.
They maybe beyond anything I can do except lobby for laws to keep like minded criminals away from them.

[Mace]

Well, according to the Bible. Satan WILL arrive someday. According to Revelations he will be so deceiving, that only true Christians will be able to tell the difference. But, God also says that "He will harden some of their hearts, so that they turn away from the truth." So, what? Does God think that there's not enough room in Heaven? Sounds selfish of Him.

That's if the Bible is true.

[CowboyHeretic]

Some years ago, coming from a party, my wife and I did meet real criminals up close, six of them. Three of them are doing life in a State Pen in Pennsylvania. The other three have been feeding worms since that night.

If Satan shows up, we hang him too. Right next to Yahooey, the abomination of the Israelites.

Eldarion Lathria

Did you cap 'em?

[DBT]

But, God also says that "He will harden some of their hearts, so that they turn away from the truth." So, what? Does God think that there's not enough room in Heaven? Sounds selfish of Him.

That's if the Bible is true.

I think that the whole shebang,Gods masterwork in creation, is meant to glorify the 'elect'

[Jayrok]

I would probably belive that bad people simply represent bad people. I am relating to you about people who live for evil. Murderers who kill for the sheer joy of killing, rapists who get more turned on by the suffering of the victim, thieves who steal indiscriminately,I could go on.
Satan is not a fictional charachter.

I've often wondered what made Satan so evil. According to the bible, he was a great angel. What did satan know about God that we don't?

If God is indeed omnimax, what possessed Satan (pun intended) to make him believe he could over power God?... and 1/3 of the angels went with him.. Maybe we don't know the whole story.

But you speak of rapists, murderers, etc.. If Satan was a beautiful angel, ranking high in God's court.. How could he become so evil so quick?

When did he go from simply being an "accuser" in God's court, to making people rape 10 year old boys?


The bible gives us no evolution of Satan. He goes from being God's servant, straight to being the father of all liars and a murderer.. What is his story?

[Mace]

I've often wondered what made Satan so evil. According to the bible, he was a great angel. What did satan know about God that we don't?

If God is indeed omnimax, what possessed Satan (pun intended) to make him believe he could over power God?... and 1/3 of the angels went with him.. Maybe we don't know the whole story.

But you speak of rapists, murderers, etc.. If Satan was a beautiful angel, ranking high in God's court.. How could he become so evil so quick?

When did he go from simply being an "accuser" in God's court, to making people rape 10 year old boys?


The bible gives us no evolution of Satan. He goes from being God's servant, straight to being the father of all liars and a murderer.. What is his story?

Just like Anakin Skywalker.

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

Did you cap 'em?

You ask as if it exciting to you someone gets capped. Sort of like how there is nothing like hearing one convict relive his crime to another...

I'm sure Eldarion Lathria did not bring this up so you could get your jollies...

You may have been around the criminal element too long, sometimes we become the things we despise...

[Hyndis]

What if Satan shows up...and he's the good guy?

It doesn't seem like Satan causes all that much suffering in the Bible. For all the talk about him being the cause of suffering in the world, he doesn't create all that much suffering. The most I can think of is him making a bet with God, and then God tortures Job.


Altenatively, if Satan is actually supposed to be a great liar, what if he shows up and pretends to be God? He's certainly got enough power to do that. If a big glowy deity shows up with a white beard and white robes, holding a golden staff, then cures the sick and heals the blind, wouldn't people interpret that as being God? (The friendly version...not the genocidal tyrant the Bible actually describes him as.)

How would you be able to tell the difference?

[CowboyHeretic]

If some thugs tried to hurt innocent people and got thier just reward then yeah I get a jolly from knowing it. If I'm in this guys territory he can tell me and I'll back right off.
Satan is jealous of mankind. The original job of satan was to accuse men of thier shortcomings before G-d. With the resurrection of Jesus, we have an advocate in Jesus as High Priest who offers atonement for us if we accept it. Satan and 1/3 of the angels dwell on the earth now and furiously persecute G-d's people. This will continue until the Final Judgement Day. Final Judgement Day is 1000 years (probably not our reckoning of time) after the Great Tribulation and Armeggedon. During the time of the Tribulation Jerusalem will be besieged by armies and partitioned into three parts. My personal take on this is that there will be a Jewish, Christian and Muslim sector patrolled by UN Troops. Or maybe I'm just some sadistic nutcase who doesn't realize that these three ancient religions would just go away if everybody just thought about it real hard.

[Mace]

If the Bible is at all true, then Judgement Day shall be the day of horrors for all. The Antichrist will establish dominance over the world and torture his opposers. He will be a thousand times the man Hitler was. He'll just have two testicles instead of one.

[capsaicin67]

Or maybe I'm just some sadistic nutcase who doesn't realize that these three ancient religions would just go away if everybody just thought about it real hard.

They might---if everybody thought real hard. But no, probably everyone won't.

So in a nutshell---why does that incredible sounding story, vs all the other myths in history, sound reasonable or true to you? [and please don't say it's true because it says it's true, unless that really is the basis of your reasoniing]

[Jayrok]

Just like Anakin Skywalker.

He is like Anakin S in that both are fictional characters.

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

If some thugs tried to hurt innocent people and got thier just reward then yeah I get a jolly from knowing it.
Damn, how'd I guess that? I'll clue you in, it wasn't Satan or one of his minions whispering in my ear!


If I'm in this guys territory he can tell me and I'll back right off.
Whoa! Pardnah! No ones accussing you of tresspassing, happens all the time in these here parts! Hell if it was agin the law, mah face would be plastered all about the place wanted dead or alive!
He was probably relating the story because you come a galloping in like a wild injun saying you hope we pilgrims get a good taste of some ornery desperadoes, like we ain't ever run acrosst no maddog killers like you have.
That you seriously get off on people killing people says a lot. But, you don't care they got their reward. And you get yours...


Satan is jealous of mankind. The original job of satan was to accuse men of thier shortcomings before G-d. With the resurrection of Jesus, we have an advocate in Jesus as High Priest who offers atonement for us if we accept it. Satan and 1/3 of the angels dwell on the earth now and furiously persecute G-d's people. This will continue until the Final Judgement Day. Final Judgement Day is 1000 years (probably not our reckoning of time) after the Great Tribulation and Armeggedon. During the time of the Tribulation Jerusalem will be besieged by armies and partitioned into three parts. My personal take on this is that there will be a Jewish, Christian and Muslim sector patrolled by UN Troops.
I'm impressed.

Or maybe I'm just some sadistic nutcase who doesn't realize that these three ancient religions would just go away if everybody just thought about it real hard.
David Koresh or Jim Jones?

[CowboyHeretic]

If the Bible is at all true, then Judgement Day shall be the day of horrors for all. The Antichrist will establish dominance over the world and torture his opposers. He will be a thousand times the man Hitler was. He'll just have two testicles instead of one.

Anyone who says that they long for this is sadly misguided. There will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth."

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

Anyone who says that they long for this is sadly misguided. There will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth."
I here people wailing all the time, but what is gnashing of teeth?

[Hyndis]

I here people wailing all the time, but what is gnashing of teeth?

Dunno, but aparently its bad.

Good for dentists, though.

[Queen of Swords]

I hope you misguided and naive lambs get to meet a real criminal up close.

I used to be a Catholic, so I've met lots of priests. At least Satan - as far as I've heard - has never tried to grope anyone. Or called them condescending names, for that matter.

[Eldarion Lathria]

Dissident, You're right about the reason for my post. I wasn't trying to show that I was a badass either, but Cowboy Heretic (you can spell out Mr. Dammit's first name, he doesn't mind) implied that we all lead sheltered, protected lives. I wanted to reply to that. (And by the bye C-H, the villains were intent on rape, robbery and murder, just like Joshua's Hebrews. My beautiful and talented wife got a body mass shot on one. We shared a kill on the second and I got one with cold steel. We made the rest lie on the ground while we waited for the police. DJ wanted to pop them in the backs of their heads and leave them to rot, but I deplore unnecessary killing of my fellow hairless apes. I dislike even necessary killing.) I haven't lead a sheltered and protected life. I've seen things that would curl your hair if it was straight or straighten it if it was curly. I have no reason to believe in a Satan, Yahweh or any other devil.

In the midst of the worst of humanity, I have also seen the best. And sometimes it comes from people you'd least expect.

Eldarion Lathria

[CowboyHeretic]

Ya'll did a good thing in fighting back. Thank you for sharing your story, I assure you I'm not out here in cyber space drooling over the fact that you were forced to kill people. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the folks here have never seen anything scarier than a saturday matinee. BTW I agree that you did the right thing by not executing the other three when you could have, that must have taken a lot of restraint.

[capsaicin67]

Cowboy Heretic: Anyone who says that they long for this is sadly misguided. There will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Again:

So in a nutshell---why does that incredible sounding story, vs all the other myths in history, sound reasonable or true to you?

You speak of it as if it is a fact like the sun or gravity or something. It's a story about magic. Why do you think it is so positively true?

1)I need it to be true.

2)I want it to be true.

3)I've been told by smarter and better people that it is true.

4)I have talked with god personally and he manifested literally and told me it was true, audibly.

5)Other

Seriously. What makes you talk about a book of tall tales like it's a book on geography or a map of the US or something?

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

Thank you for sharing your story, I assure you I'm not out here in cyber space drooling over the fact that you were forced to kill people.
Especially since he didn't cap 'em all, I bet...

I'm just pointing out that a lot of the folks here have never seen anything scarier than a saturday matinee.
And your shooting from the hip deductions are based on? Saturday matinees aren't exactly scary btw..
Some of us have seen stuff far worse than some behind the bars convict relating his crimes. You should know they do this to look tough to the other inmates and intimidate rookie guards. Maybe they know you're a "christian" and are fucking your already raped mind.
I hope to never go to prison, as an inmate or to just visit. I have heard the guards can be just as fucked up as the inmates and in some cases worse... who polices the guards?


BTW I agree that you did the right thing by not executing the other three when you could have, that must have taken a lot of restraint.
Yeah maybe one of them will tell you tales of gang raping and robbing people in prison.
Why is it okay for them not to have gotten their just reward like the other three guys? The other three, since they're are dead could have been the weaker gang members who were too scaird too say no...

[CowboyHeretic]

So you just dismiss this guy as a liar because he tells something for the truth that just happens to be unusual in the sense that it didn't happen to you. I see your logic.
It's a mindset. You two don't have. That's why you're food.
I spent ten years in the cage. I was a Sergeant and had an office with a window overlooking the yard. All you had to do was listen.

[capsaicin67]

Again, from my post earlier:

As far as I can see no one is denying that there are awful, nasty, abhorrent human beings---why would we need evidence of that which we are in agreement with you on? The disagreement is about what the root causes are and if it has any relevancy to the existence of supernatural beings----right?

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

So you just dismiss this guy as a liar because he tells something for the truth that just happens to be unusual in the sense that it didn't happen to you.
Never said you lied about anything. If you want to believe Satan is real go right ahead. Like I said people with your mindset are beyond any help I can offer, just like the people who think it's okay to have have "sex" with children are beyond my help.

I see your logic.
It's a mindset. You two don't have.
A mindset of not putting the label of "Satan" on everything we don't understand. What help did you offer these people you exposed yourself to, other than calling them Satan's Servants?
To be honest if you had killed a known child rapist in your charge for relating his "conquest" I might give you a thumbs up....


That's why you're food.
Just remember to say grace before you eat me ;)

I spent ten years in the cage. I was a Sergeant and had an office with a window overlooking the yard. All you had to do was listen.
I see your "logic". It's a mindset. I hope I never have...
What a shame our prisons are being run by people who think Satan [still fictional] is runnung amuck!

[CowboyHeretic]

I, by luck or design, was on his custody review board the next day. He came with a good line of crap and might have gotten promoted if I hadn't heard him and recognized him from the day before.
Put your stones down, I'm not a monster.

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

I, by luck or design, was on his custody review board the next day. He came with a good line of crap and might have gotten promoted if I hadn't heard him and recognized him from the day before.
So, you believe what he told the custody reveiw board was crap, but what he told the other inmate wasn't crap...

I'd say he was trying to save his own ass both with the inmate and the custody reveiw board, if he truly thinks he's one of Satan's servants

Put your stones down, I'm not a monster.
Well most of us here are not misguided naive lambs, nor are we food.

[CowboyHeretic]

So, you believe what he told the custody reveiw board was crap, but what he told the other inmate wasn't crap...

I'd say he was trying to save his own ass both with the inmate and the custody reveiw board, if he truly thinks he's one of Satan's servants


Well most of us here are not misguided naive lambs, nor are we food.

You obviously don't know much about inmates.
I regret the negative direction this series of posts has taken. It has not been reflective of the dialogue I had hoped to engage in here. Sorry for the bruised egos.

[jonesg]

If Satan showed up, just as Jesus showed up, the problem is who would believe them?

What would the average persons reaction be if they were approached by someone who said, "I`m Satan, what`s your name?"

In my time, I`ve met one person who said he´s Jesus, one who said her boyfriend was, and one lady who claimed she was God. So if the real Satan or Jesus came along I doubt if I or many others would believe them.


If Satan showed up, ?
Satan isn't some external thing,
its an inside job.
When that which is satan takes over control , you have to be blind not to see. Try Hitler, Stalin and their freinds.

If the ancient Greek saying is true " Whomsover the Gods would use, first they make mad",

then theres a fork in the road when people arrive at their madness and they make a conscious decision, the light or the shadow.
Most don't see or care about the fork in the road, they blow past the signpost too fast because they are self absorbed.

[steamer]

If Satan showed up, ?
Satan isn't some external thing,
its an inside job.
When that which is satan takes over control , you have to be blind not to see. Try Hitler, Stalin and their freinds.


Satan as an actually entity needs only to make himself known in the same manner you could make yourself known. His purpose would be to thwart god's will by lending credence to the biblical notion that such a being exists. It seems that it would benefit Satan in that he'd get to thwart god's will and he gets to be known himself.

Pretending that men such as Stalin and Hitler would need any encouragement from supernatural sources is just unfounded. Unfounded assertions need a basis before one would bother to refute them.

[jonesg]

You obviously don't know much about inmates.
I regret the negative direction this series of posts has taken. It has not been reflective of the dialogue I had hoped to engage in here. Sorry for the bruised egos.


When people feel their whole philosophy is under threat they tend to lash out like belligerent savages. I've been there.

I've done some counseling in secured facilities, they're insane, thats why they're there. The thing that gets me about pathological liars is they think they're getting away with another lie even when they tell the truth because they have lost the ability to differentiate.

People who post from the comfort of free society to this website have no idea of the evil which they are protected from.
Evil exists, it 'thinks' .
It has a purpose and we are not part of the its plan.
But the rights which our Creator gave us ensure the evil is locked away when it rears its will .

Thats reality.

[jonesg]

Satan as an actually entity needs only to make himself known in the same manner you could make yourself known. His purpose would be to thwart god's will by lending credence to the biblical notion that such a being exists. It seems that it would benefit Satan in that he'd get to thwart god's will and he gets to be known himself.

Pretending that men such as Stalin and Hitler would need any encouragement from supernatural sources is just unfounded. Unfounded assertions need a basis before one would bother to refute them.

Satan does make himself known by his works, read a newspaper.

I wouldn't try and know what satan thinks, he's smarter than humans.
Stalin and hitler were just 2 more usefull idiots.
JAils are full of them, they just lack the positions of power.

[jonesg]

Well most of us here are not misguided naive lambs, nor are we food.

hehehe
In jail you would have a name, f*ckdog is the accepted term.
THe term describes what happens to you,
not just some name they call you.

[Avatar]

Ever been in a war? I have.

Ever seen good people killed right in front of you? Ditto.

Do me a favor and don't assume I'm somehow sheltered or naive because I don't believe in your devil. People are perfectly capable of being monsters without resorting to a twisted pseudo-deity. There doesn't have to be a war either.

I've tangled with a few of the freaks that have been described in this thread. They didn't need "satanic" help to be what they were. Any more than the good people I've known needed divine help to be the good people they were.

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

Do me a favor and don't assume I'm somehow sheltered or naive because I don't believe in your devil. People are perfectly capable of being monsters without resorting to a twisted pseudo-deity. There doesn't have to be a war either.

I don't know. After watching the current administration in Washington run the country (into the ground), I've been re-thinking this whole Satan thing. :devil3:

SI

[That Old Serpent]

I'm sorry I'm late.

I have appeared on various Internet fora as "Satan." As this is an atheist forum, Satan is assumed to be a fictional character. For that reason, it may be a breach of the rules to proclaim myself such here. So, for those of you playing along at home, I propose you merely view me as a more literal application of the cliché "Devil's Advocate" than you normally encounter. If the Bible were literally true, even the passages that contradict others, perhaps he would sound like me.

If the biblical character Satan (Not to be confused with the more evil character known as Yahweh) were to reveal himself to mankind, this would probably add some credence to biblical claims, would it not?

Now it would appear that if this being exists as the "Riddler" to Yahweh's "Batman", that this character would do everything it could do to thwart Yahweh's will. It appears that it is Yahweh's will that he not somehow violate mankinds ability to make important decisions based on insufficient information and so he does not reveal himself.

Satan though, as the arch enemy, ought to just reveal himself so that god's will could be thwarted. In the bible it is mentioned that Satan tools around all over the earth, so I don't understand why he doesn't just make himself known as a real entity.
In fact, when I "appeared" on another message board, more than one member said it was ill-advised to reveal myself, since it might lend credence to Biblical accounts. The next time I'm asked, I may plagiarize your statement emphasized above. I'm often accused of lying, but at least my flattery can be sincere.

Steamer,
I would suggest that you get yourself a job working in prison for "gun grade" felons. You will meet many of Satans servants. There's nothing like listening to a convict telling other convicts his crime story about how sweet some six year olds ass was or how some defenseless woman cried while he was raping her, to teach you about evil. I had a convict file a Grievance once because he was mad that his wife was divorcing him while he was locked up in prison - he was in for raping thier ten year old son. Which side do you want to be on?
The quasi-derail that followed this post covers the atheist/non-Abrahamic position that this type of person could exist independent of Satan. But here's a horrifying thought: what if Satan really does exist, yet still has nothing to do with the human monsters of whom you speak? The Biblical dogma that one must serve either God or Satan aside for a moment (which would be a fun topic in itself), why is it impossible that this heinous behavior could spring to the human mind, without help from either side? And if the worst of your examples, including Adolph and Joey, don't need Satan's help, how much more efficient would the Devil's Work be than even you have imagined thus far?

Satan is jealous of mankind. The original job of satan was to accuse men of thier shortcomings before G-d. With the resurrection of Jesus, we have an advocate in Jesus as High Priest who offers atonement for us if we accept it. Satan and 1/3 of the angels dwell on the earth now and furiously persecute G-d's people. This will continue until the Final Judgement Day. Final Judgement Day is 1000 years (probably not our reckoning of time) after the Great Tribulation and Armeggedon. During the time of the Tribulation Jerusalem will be besieged by armies and partitioned into three parts.
That is a rather concise account of the various roles Satan has played in the "Old" and "New" Testaments, with some somewhat dodgy interpretation thrown in. Of course, if one is trying to justify a strictly literal interpretation of the entire Christian Bible, one has to view this crazy-quilt of contradictory stories as a seamless, linear narrative rather than a traditional story's natural evolution over time.

The problem of Accuser vs. Tempter is more easily resolved if one assumes that the "Serpent" of the Eden story is actually Satan. Most modern flavors of Christianity do, as it at least provides some evidence that Satan was wearing the two distinct hats even before Yeshua of Nazareth appeared on the scene. The problem is, the only support for this is a mention of Satan as "that old serpent," in the Hallucinations of St. John. This is no more a proof that Satan = Eden's Serpent than calling someone a jackass means he's same the braying creature that kicked one in the head when one was 12.

[CowboyHeretic]

I knew you'd been listening. It's not all that nice to hear from you again though. Your showing up just invalidates this whole web site. We may have saved some people except for this. Guess that's why you're Satan. :banghead:

[jonesg]

Ever been in a war? I have.

Ever seen good people killed right in front of you? Ditto.

Do me a favor and don't assume I'm somehow sheltered or naive because I don't believe in your devil. People are perfectly capable of being monsters without resorting to a twisted pseudo-deity. There doesn't have to be a war either.

I've tangled with a few of the freaks that have been described in this thread. They didn't need "satanic" help to be what they were. Any more than the good people I've known needed divine help to be the good people they were.


"Any more than the good people I've known needed divine help to be the good people they were."

Examine your words, watch your logic, one and one isn't 5.

Good people don't need divine help, they are good already.!
Its the fallen ones who need divine help, thats the point Jesus was making during his life.

[steamer]

Satan does make himself known by his works, read a newspaper.

You have some knowledge of this Satan as an actual entity? You have some knowledge of how this actual entity operates? It seems to me that you like to make baseless assertions and present them as fact. Perhaps you like to rephrase this to be just your opinion. Is Satan working within you now with these little attempts at deception? The presentation of opinion as an assertion of fact seems less than honest to me.


I wouldn't try and know what satan thinks, he's smarter than humans.

Another baseless assertion. Which do you value more, your opinion or your honesty?


Stalin and hitler were just 2 more usefull idiots.
JAils are full of them, they just lack the positions of power.

I wholly reject your opinion that Hitler and Satan were merely pawns in some supernatural game. Will you claim that you have some knowledge that they were or is your own honesty more valuable to you?

[DBT]

Satan does make himself known by his works, read a newspaper.

I wouldn't try and know what satan thinks, he's smarter than humans.
Stalin and hitler were just 2 more usefull idiots.
JAils are full of them, they just lack the positions of power.

Doesn't that mean that we are merely the victims of a vastly superior supernatural being - and that we are not ultimately responsibilty for our own actions ?

[orac]

Satan is not a fictional charachter.
Nonsense.

Evil is not caused by satan.

All evil is caused by Lord Voldemort, and all those who deny His terrible evil are working to ensure His continued dominance over our world.

Could you please explain to me why you choose to willingly act in the service of a sadistic and brutal murderer?

(Alternatively, on the unlikely chance that you're not a truely evil person) could you provide some evidence that your preferred dark lord is real, while mine isn't? Please? I'ld appreciate knowing that you're not delusional or willingly evil, and given that you're such a nice guy I'm sure you can show your evidence easily.)

Noone's denying the existance of bad people. All we want is a siongle scrap of evidence that your preferred evil guy is actually real.

Heh, there's one other thing I'ld like to know: if evil is caused by satan and not by actual human beings, why are you so keen to punish people who have no ability to stop the dark lord from controlling them?

Do you have some moral problem with criminals being held accountable for their own actions that makes you so willing to accept that it's not really their fault?

[Joan of Bark]

Personally, I always saw Satan as a kind of Prometheus, giving humanity the power to survive in a cold and hostile universe while God acts like an ego-obsessed Zeus, hurling thunderbolts at us and demanding mindless obeisance. Of course, this is strictly a literary interpretation of fictional characters.

"Have some sympathy for the devil; all the books have been written by God." -- Theodore Sturgeon

[Queen of Swords]

We may have saved some people except for this.

This is extremely amusing. Do you really believe that anyone here was on the verge of converting or re-converting when That Old Serpent showed up? If so, doesn't it mean that Satan thwarted god's plans yet again, which doesn't say much for god?

[Hyndis]

Personally, I always saw Satan as a kind of Prometheus, giving humanity the power to survive in a cold and hostile universe while God acts like an ego-obsessed Zeus, hurling thunderbolts at us and demanding mindless obeisance. Of course, this is strictly a literary interpretation of fictional characters.

"Have some sympathy for the devil; all the books have been written by God." -- Theodore Sturgeon

I'm of the same view. But its all fiction anyhow.

In the Bible, God seems to be the bad guy. Just look at who's ordering various genocides and other killings. He even does some of the dirty work himself, too.

And all Satan does is give poor Job some boils. Its not very nice, but I don't think Satan kills even one person in the entire Bible. Reading the thing literally, and considering reasonable populations, God is probably at a few hundred million murders. :eek:

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

hehehe
In jail you would have a name, f*ckdog is the accepted term.
THe term describes what happens to you,
not just some name they call you.

Yeah. Well your hehehe shows that you would probably enjoy that :(
I don't have to worry, even though I'm atheist/Atheist have no G*d laws guiding me through life, what I do won't be sending me into a place like that. Luck or design has given me talent so I don't have to steal, or get a "job" in a prison.
Like I said I don't doubt there are sick "evil" people in prisons on both sides of the bars...

You and that other experienced fellow, Cowboy Heritic, are proof of this. It's very apparent, with my limited knowledge of the prison system, that something needs to be done, it appears from the newspapers and television news and by your guys posts that we are leting the foxes guard the chicken coop! People do get through custody board reveiws, apparently all you have to do is denounce Satan, praise Jesus and you get your "Get out of jail free" card.

You guys are no better than the criminals you interact with and claim to protect us from.

Thanks!

[DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR]

You obviously don't know much about inmates.
No I don't. Just the ones I hear about on the news that get out only to rape and kill again.
"Reformed"by peole like you in prison. Yeah old Satan sure tricked the guards and the parole board.

I regret the negative direction this series of posts has taken. It has not been reflective of the dialogue I had hoped to engage in here..
And what prey tell was that? To scare the BeJebus out of us with your Satan is real stories?
What little time I do get out of my insulated bubble, believe it or not, I do meet people. Maybe not the Big Bad Wolves you enjoy but the victims of you and your prison buddies.



Sorry for the bruised egos.

Satan is still fictional, Cowboy Heretic, pull yourself up by your own boot straps, dry your eyes, and take responsibility for your own actions and reactions to what's going on in your reality, quit blaming your imaginary fiends/friends.

Then you'll have nothing to be sorry for or about... :thumbs:

[Jakanapes]

I'm of the same view. But its all fiction anyhow.

In the Bible, God seems to be the bad guy. Just look at who's ordering various genocides and other killings. He even does some of the dirty work himself, too.

And all Satan does is give poor Job some boils. Its not very nice, but I don't think Satan kills even one person in the entire Bible. Reading the thing literally, and considering reasonable populations, God is probably at a few hundred million murders. :eek:

Honestly, Satan is a freedom fighter. He tried to overthrow the dictatorial regime of an unelected, power-mad, theocratic monster, but was beaten and continues the fight underground.

[AthenaAwakened]

I think Satan decided to grow up and Stood up to a tyrannical father with security issues. The father couldn't stand being rejected and had a hissy fit. And old slue foot has been in trouble ever since. ;)

[cgordon]

I hope you misguided and naive lambs get to meet a real criminal up close. I also hope that you don't get hurt but you could stand a dose of reality.

Dunno how misguided or naive I am, CH, but I've been a cop and a soldier, been shot at and missed, been shat at and hit. Got some pretty ribbons and a monthly check from the VA for my troubles, too.

And I still say Satan is a myth, just like his alleged counterparts. Evil people are just that, evil people -- and trust me, I've known some pretty freaking evil people. There's no devil or demon to blame, only human nature.

Chuck

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

Honestly, Satan is a freedom fighter. He tried to overthrow the dictatorial regime of an unelected, power-mad, theocratic monster, but was beaten and continues the fight underground.
Or, from the Christian point of view, he's an insurgent. :Cheeky:

SI

[That Old Serpent]

I think Satan decided to grow up and Stood up to a tyrannical father with security issues. The father couldn't stand being rejected and had a hissy fit. And old slue foot has been in trouble ever since. ;)
Imagine the insecurity of a being that requires constant, eternal praise. Your scenario sounds quite plausible.

Consider a variation on the old "Can He create a boulder too heavy for Him to lift" question. The traditional Hebraic Satan is often interpreted as an angelic troubleshooter, pointing out the failings of humans. Suppose he started cataloguing certain shortcomings of creation itself, and Dad couldn't handle it. A few suggestions and criticisms later, his job description started gradually changing. Before he knew it, he wasn't even counted among the good guys anymore. That would explain why he has been doing dirty work ever since.

We may have saved some people except for this. This is extremely amusing. Do you really believe that anyone here was on the verge of converting or re-converting when That Old Serpent showed up? If so, doesn't it mean that Satan thwarted god's plans yet again, which doesn't say much for god?
It's apparently worse than that; I've "invalidate[d] this whole web site" in one fell post. That was awfully easy. Yet that seems to imply that II is God's tool (or was; the jig is up now), even though most Christians would probably argue otherwise.

[DMB]

Good people don't need divine help, they are good already.!
Its the fallen ones who need divine help, thats the point Jesus was making during his life.
I'm quite disappointed by this response. I thought the standard fundy line was that all good things happened by the grace of god and all bad things by the influence of satan. *sigh*

I do wish that you and the cowboy heretic would explain how you deduce that the existence of bad people or bad actions is an irrefutable argument for the existence of satan. So far all I have seen from the two of you in this thread amounts to
A:there exist some bad people -- no I mean really bad, worse than you milksop atheists can possibly know or imagine!
B:satan exists

A ==> B
I feel this logic is a little incomplete. Shouldn't there be something more? Even something a bit persuasive? :D

[CowboyHeretic]

Dunno how misguided or naive I am, CH, but I've been a cop and a soldier, been shot at and missed, been shat at and hit. Got some pretty ribbons and a monthly check from the VA for my troubles, too.

And I still say Satan is a myth, just like his alleged counterparts. Evil people are just that, evil people -- and trust me, I've known some pretty freaking evil people. There's no devil or demon to blame, only human nature.

Chuck

I can respect the opinion of someone who has "Been there and done that."
I don't seem to get along well with the uninformed here. My point is not that all evil comes from Satan, mankind is perfectly capable of creating it's own evil. You have probably experienced the reaction of normal people who are confronted with overwhelming strength, numbers or firepower. The reaction of the sane person is to surrender or run. A psychotic, suicidal or drugged person may fight, run, pray, give up, chew his arm off, in short is unpredictable. But what I am describing is that person who is sober, not crazy or suididal who decides to fight and then fights not to win but to injure or kill. I believe that this is a Satanic influence. If a person hasn't ever seen this type of individual then they would have no frame of reference. This came across to some as "arrogance" but that was unintended.

[Hyndis]

But what I am describing is that person who is sober, not crazy or suididal who decides to fight and then fights not to win but to injure or kill. I believe that this is a Satanic influence.

They could just be a sociopath, which is a type of mental illness. Meglomania is similar in that others are viewed merely as objects to be used, destroyed, or discarded at will. People with these illnesses lack empathy and simply don't regard other human beings as persons.

I could be wrong on the specific diagnosis; it could be a disorder instead of an illness, but the point still stands.

Or, are you claiming that mental illness is the result of Satan's influence?

[dancer_rnb]

I wonder who was driving (if anyone/anything) the actions of the various heritic hunters and witchfinders during the 15th through 17th centuries. I'm thinking about the ones that used torture to get their victims to confess, thinking that the victims' souls might be saved that way.

[capsaicin67]

As I've posted twice already.

As far as I can see no one is denying that there are awful, nasty, abhorrent human beings---why would we need evidence of that which we are in agreement with you on? The disagreement is about what the root causes are and if it has any relevancy to the existence of supernatural beings----right?

[capsaicin67]

But what I am describing is that person who is sober, not crazy or suididal who decides to fight and then fights not to win but to injure or kill. I believe that this is a Satanic influence.

I've met them, yes. They are just crazy in a different way that most "normalish" people find more booga booga and harder to wrap their brains around. I'm not sure why people care about big time spectator sports, or how they trick themselves into joining cults, enthusiastically, or why they care about American Idol, too. I seriously have a hard time getting my head in that space. But even so, I don't believe it requires a supernatural explanation. I recognize that it is a different kind of human thinking.

Most people think of crazy as being someone that is slobbering and raving or something. This is a person whose empathy circuits are short circuited I think, and for whom sadism is gratifying. Complete, pure selfishness---but often mixed in with a deficit of inhibitions and maybe increased impuslivity. It never occurs to them that other people should matter in any respect other than prey. I think that such people can at times be worsened by an utter lack of values in upbringing [Humanist or otherwise], they can also be given a weapon and catalyst through whacky judgemental, intolerant, superstitious, hateful, inconsistent mythology. Living with similar, crazy, abusive people can certainly aggravate things. But many I fear are also wired differently.

I mean, mental retardation, too, is a serious biological aberration---it's real and causes the person to interact with the world differently. And it's tragic. Like disease. But that being so, and the injustice of it all etc---it still does not prove the existence of a magical demon either. Certainly it is a serious issue, and a reminder of the intermittent brutalty and injustice in life. But a magical explanation is not required for it either.

[capsaicin67]

And just for clarity---I do not compare the aberrent drive to harm and torment----nor indifference to it, to mental retardation in terms of acceptability or social repsonse. Just as 2 things of the natural world that should-not-be in a perfect universe. And that do not require magic to explain ro acknowledge.

I believe in zero tolerance for the former because I do think it certainly involves an element of choice and will that should not be gilded nor enabled.

[Neo-Nietzschean]

God and Satan actually cancel each other out. The existence of a being with the supposed nature of God negates the existence of a being with the supposed nature of Satan. And this works visa versa. So discussions about God or Satan are actually discussions in the abstract. :devil3:

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

I can respect the opinion of someone who has "Been there and done that."
I don't seem to get along well with the uninformed here. My point is not that all evil comes from Satan, mankind is perfectly capable of creating it's own evil. You have probably experienced the reaction of normal people who are confronted with overwhelming strength, numbers or firepower. The reaction of the sane person is to surrender or run. A psychotic, suicidal or drugged person may fight, run, pray, give up, chew his arm off, in short is unpredictable. But what I am describing is that person who is sober, not crazy or suididal who decides to fight and then fights not to win but to injure or kill. I believe that this is a Satanic influence. If a person hasn't ever seen this type of individual then they would have no frame of reference. This came across to some as "arrogance" but that was unintended.

Aren't you underscoring here the distinction between atheists and theists? Is this not the central issue in the question about the EoG?

If I understand what you are saying, above, you feel that there is some evil attributable to humans, and other evil attributable to Satan. This means that you believe some evil is natural, and some is supernatural. Would that be a correct interpretation of what you wrote?

If so, from a logical point of view, your claim to an extraordinary (supernatural) explanation requires extraordinary evidence. You are not claiming that Satan is natural, someone we can all see, hear and feel. His existence is beyond this natural world. Therefore, you must rule out all possible natural explanations for this alleged supernatural evil, before anyone can accept Satan as an explanation.

Cannot a "person who is sober, not crazy or suicidal who decides to fight and then fights not to win but to injure or kill" be explained by reference to common, psychiatric notions of sociopathic mental illness? If so, do you believe all sociopaths are influenced by a supernatural being? Isn't your belief that "this is a Satanic influence" just that - a belief without evidence?

SI

[CowboyHeretic]

They could just be a sociopath, which is a type of mental illness. Meglomania is similar in that others are viewed merely as objects to be used, destroyed, or discarded at will. People with these illnesses lack empathy and simply don't regard other human beings as persons.

I could be wrong on the specific diagnosis; it could be a disorder instead of an illness, but the point still stands.

Or, are you claiming that mental illness is the result of Satan's influence?

No I am not. I recognize the difference between mentally ill and evil. I don't clearly recognize the individual difference in a single evil event between what may be free choice and Satanic influence. I do assert that human beings who engage in a persistent pattern of harmful (violently assaultive) and/or perverse (Rape, Child Molestation) behavior are acting in accord with satanic influence.

[CowboyHeretic]

I wonder who was driving (if anyone/anything) the actions of the various heritic hunters and witchfinders during the 15th through 17th centuries. I'm thinking about the ones that used torture to get their victims to confess, thinking that the victims' souls might be saved that way.

The church is not immune to Satanic influence. Note the worldwide sex scandle in the Catholic Church.

[WilliamB]

The church is not immune to Satanic influence. Note the worldwide sex scandle in the Catholic Church.

Agreed. But let's not forget John Calvin! I think that guy was the Devil's right hand man!

[DMB]

...But what I am describing is that person who is sober, not crazy or suididal who decides to fight and then fights not to win but to injure or kill. I believe that this is a Satanic influence. If a person hasn't ever seen this type of individual then they would have no frame of reference. This came across to some as "arrogance" but that was unintended.
This is the nub of your argument. But why do you believe it? Why should anyone else believe it? You still don't give reasons.

[orac]

This is the nub of your argument. But why do you believe it? Why should anyone else believe it? You still don't give reasons.
We should believe it because otherwise he'll pray that we meet evil people and get hurt. ;) Well, he did say that he wants us to "meet" people he considers evil.

I will admit that I can see a certain appeal to the idea that people aren't that bad and that all the really bad cases are because of satan. The idea that people aren't naturally good can be pretty depressing. I do find it odd that he openly admits a desire to punish people who he's convinced aren't actually responsible for their own actions, though.

Still, the idea that we should all worship a deity who's into human sacrifice on the basis that the alternative is depressing strikes me as a little odd. I don't know how exactly that one is supposed to work. ;)

[DBT]

Lucifer was supposedly the most beautiful and greatest angel that God ever created....."The most wise and perfect of God's creations." (http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fa/Bible.show/sVerseID/21170/eVerseID/21175)

So what does Lucifers fall from grace imply?
1-That God is an Incompetent creator?
2-That God designed Lucifer to become evil?

[Hyndis]

I do assert that human beings who engage in a persistent pattern of harmful (violently assaultive) and/or perverse (Rape, Child Molestation) behavior are acting in accord with satanic influence.

Hmm...well, those behaviors are almost exactly what a sociopath tends to do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath

You call it satanic influence; I call it being a sociopath (or having a similar kind of illness). :huh:

[CowboyHeretic]

:Cheeky:

First I said I wanted you to "meet" them and then I said I hoped that no one was hurt. Look it up, I'll wait....da de duhm da de duhm de duhm, Back already? OK
My reason for saying this is that I believe that actually being in the presence of someone like this would change your mind. If one could give me a single theory that explains violent criminality or violent sexual perversion (this includes child molestation) I might change my mind. The theory has to be comprehensive and complete, that is verifiable, testable and have a reliability coefficient of 100.

I believe what I believe based upon 10 years of face to face work with gun grade felon inmates.

Now, what's up with Calvin?

[Hyndis]

If one could give me a single theory that explains violent criminality or violent sexual perversion (this includes child molestation) I might change my mind. The theory has to be comprehensive and complete, that is verifiable, testable and have a reliability coefficient of 100.

Thats demanding something like a math proof for this. Those only exist in math. :p

But please read the linky on sociopaths. They tend to exhibit almost the exact same behavior you are describing. Furthermore, almost everyone in prison seems to exhibit some of those traits, and while the average prison inmate doesn't have enough of the traits to be clinicaly diagnosed, its much higher than the average, non-criminal population.

[CowboyHeretic]

Thats demanding something like a math proof for this. Those only exist in math. :p

But please read the linky on sociopaths. They tend to exhibit almost the exact same behavior you are describing. Furthermore, almost everyone in prison seems to exhibit some of those traits, and while the average prison inmate doesn't have enough of the traits to be clinicaly diagnosed, its much higher than the average, non-criminal population.

G-d invented Math! Proof at last! :rolling:

[Hyndis]

G-d invented Math! Proof at last! :rolling:

Err...you do understand the difference between proofs and evidence, right? :confused:

[CowboyHeretic]

Err...you do understand the difference between proofs and evidence, right? :confused:

Can't a poor monotheistic slob like me even get a laugh from you guys? :p

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

If one could give me a single theory that explains violent criminality or violent sexual perversion (this includes child molestation) I might change my mind. The theory has to be comprehensive and complete, that is verifiable, testable and have a reliability coefficient of 100.

Why do you need one simple theory to explain all evil? A sort of K.I.S.S. theory? (Keep It Simple Stupid - and no, I'm not saying you're stupid, it's just a nice acronym). There are a multitude of reasons why people do bad things, ranging from a bad childhood, through negative cultural, social (and yes, religious) influences, through known diseases that affect the mind. Life is complex. Reality is complex. Not many things can be explained with a simple unified theory.

Is that what religion is all about? A quest for a simple, monomax explanation for reality? I think I'm beginning to understand religion now. It's really an attempt to simplify reality.

SI

[CowboyHeretic]

Why do you need one simple theory to explain all evil? A sort of K.I.S.S. theory? (Keep It Simple Stupid - and no, I'm not saying you're stupid, it's just a nice acronym). There are a multitude of reasons why people do bad things, ranging from a bad childhood, through negative cultural, social (and yes, religious) influences, through known diseases that affect the mind. Life is complex. Reality is complex. Not many things can be explained with a simple unified theory.

Is that what religion is all about? A quest for a simple, monomax explanation for reality? I think I'm beginning to understand religion now. It's really an attempt to simplify reality.

SI

I'm turning around what I keep hearing from atheists to theists here. Gimme proof, show me, 100% evidence.
Point being nothing is 100%. You have to accept what is reasonable.
Three is no KISS (didn't take it that way) Theory of evil, of religion, ad nauseum.
To me there is no better explanation for a human being who engages in the brutality of the weak habitually, than satanic influence.

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

To me there is no better explanation for a human being who engages in the brutality of the weak habitually, than satanic influence.
Then why don't we perform exorcisms on all inmates in prison? Surely that would reduce the overcrowding, if Satan is behind even a fraction of the crimes.

SI

[CowboyHeretic]

Then why don't we perform exorcisms on all inmates in prison? Surely that would reduce the overcrowding, if Satan is behind even a fraction of the crimes.

SI

Now that's just silly Dark Age stuff isn't it? BTW have you ever heard of a Prison being hit by a "natural disaster"? Satan takes care of his own. :D

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

Now that's just silly Dark Age stuff isn't it? BTW have you ever heard of a Prison being hit by a "natural disaster"? Satan takes care of his own. :D

Sorry. I just figured, if you believed in Satan, you believed in the the ability of the faithful to exorcise him. :devil1:

ACTS 16:26: Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken.

SI

[CowboyHeretic]

Sorry. I just figured, if you believed in Satan, you believed in the the ability of the faithful to exorcise him. :devil1:

ACTS 16:26: Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken.

SI

Tried exorcism once, doesn't work if the person wants to hold onto thier demon(s). Probably wouldn't work on these criminals either. You can't force faith on someone. {I bet that's refreshing?}
BTW that was G-d shaking the prison to get the apostles out.

[DMB]

Asking for a single, comprehensive theory to explain deviant behaviour is like asking for a single, comprehensive theory to explain gut ache.

And talking of gut ache... all you are putting forward to explain why extreme criminality must be due to satanic influence is your gut feeling. If you had never heard of satan it is very doubtful that you would come up with such an hypothesis. You were already primed to believe this stuff and saw your unpleasant experiences as confirmation of your belief.

A fairly comprehensive theory would be that we all have some nastiness inside us and that there is a continuous spectrum of attitudes and behaviours. There is no obvious dividing line between the sheep and the goats. Our close relatives, chimpazees, are capable of some pretty nasty behaviour, but the lack our advantage (??) of guns, knives, bombs, etc.

[premjan]

Reincarnation theories would get into exorcism quite a bit. Many Hindu superstitions about possessed individuals exist, and some festivals (e.g. Murugan festivals) are based around them.

[cgordon]

... But what I am describing is that person who is sober, not crazy or suididal who decides to fight and then fights not to win but to injure or kill.

This is exactly how we train young soldiers to fight.

I watched video this morning, from a firefight in Iraq. One young troop (A Pfc, probably not old enough to drink beer in his home state) was being carried out of a position by medics. He had at least two bullet wounds (arm and leg, IIRC), as well as some minor shrapnel wounds.

The medics came under fire as they rounded a corner. Fortunately, the injured soldier still had his weapon. He sat up, opened fire at the attackers, killed one, and only lay back on the stretcher after the threat was over. Nothing demonic. In that case, it was good training, a will to survive and a strong heart.

The people he was fighting were just as determined. I know some will say they are influenced by Satan (one prominent American general has been known to make such pronouncements, sadly), but they believe they're fighting for god and faith.

I've tangled with folks over the years who were pathologically violent, some via drug use, others for lack of proper medication. Some were just mean rat-bastards who were deeply sociapathic and cared nothing for anyone but themselves.

Again, nothing Satanic. Only human. We -- as a race -- represent such a broad spectrum of behavior, motivation, activity and responsibility.

Evil is not a person. It is what bad people do.

Chuck

[CowboyHeretic]

This is exactly how we train young soldiers to fight.

I watched video this morning, from a firefight in Iraq. One young troop (A Pfc, probably not old enough to drink beer in his home state) was being carried out of a position by medics. He had at least two bullet wounds (arm and leg, IIRC), as well as some minor shrapnel wounds.

The medics came under fire as they rounded a corner. Fortunately, the injured soldier still had his weapon. He sat up, opened fire at the attackers, killed one, and only lay back on the stretcher after the threat was over. Nothing demonic. In that case, it was good training, a will to survive and a strong heart.

The people he was fighting were just as determined. I know some will say they are influenced by Satan (one prominent American general has been known to make such pronouncements, sadly), but they believe they're fighting for god and faith.

I've tangled with folks over the years who were pathologically violent, some via drug use, others for lack of proper medication. Some were just mean rat-bastards who were deeply sociapathic and cared nothing for anyone but themselves.

Again, nothing Satanic. Only human. We -- as a race -- represent such a broad spectrum of behavior, motivation, activity and responsibility.

Evil is not a person. It is what bad people do.

Chuck

Thank you for your perspective and thank you for your service. I realize and APPRECIATE that what you are doing allows me to sit on my ever widening fat a$$ and "play" word games on this computer. :)

[capsaicin67]

And it's what I've said 2-3 times already, as well as others having done so. >shrug<

[not meaning it wasn't a good post, it was---but that several other posts also adequately confronting the issues have been talked around]

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

Tried exorcism once, doesn't work if the person wants to hold onto thier demon(s). Probably wouldn't work on these criminals either. You can't force faith on someone. {I bet that's refreshing?}
It failed? So a human can resist the power of god to expel demons. Makes god so...so, what's the word?....IMPOTENT
BTW that was G-d shaking the prison to get the apostles out.
mmm hmmm. OK. I'm beginning to think the power to (ir)rationalize is the greatest power in the world.

SI

[CowboyHeretic]

It proves people can be so foolish.

[That Old Serpent]

Now that's just silly Dark Age stuff isn't it? BTW have you ever heard of a Prison being hit by a "natural disaster"? Satan takes care of his own. :D
Now Satan's responsible for natural disasters, or the prevention thereof? I wish you folks would keep your expectations consistent. Cf. my previous post about changes in job description. I can only imagine what the Next Testament will demand of the position.

Lucifer was supposedly the most beautiful and greatest angel that God ever created....."The most wise and perfect of God's creations." (http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fa/Bible.show/sVerseID/21170/eVerseID/21175)

So what does Lucifers fall from grace imply?
1-That God is an Incompetent creator?
2-That God designed Lucifer to become evil?
1-Yes.
2-Yes, at least by popular definitions of "evil."

[SlothropsCape]

I hope you misguided and naive lambs get to meet a real criminal up close. I also hope that you don't get hurt but you could stand a dose of reality. Try visiting a prison, they are open to the public via tour groups believe it or not. Make pals.

I suppose Russian who lived through Stalin's exterminations knew nothing of TRUE evil - if they had there would have been no Russian atheists.

I suppose S.E. Asian Buddhists don't know a thing about suffering and the hard side of life - otherwise they'd believe in the Devil.

By the way, do I know you? You seem to know exactly what I've experienced in life, and the people I've dealt with. Uncanny.

[ELECTROGOD]

If Satan showed up then it would mean that Terence and Phillip had been executed. Needless to say, we cannot let this happen.

**fart** :D

[steamer]

I do assert that human beings who engage in a persistent pattern of harmful (violently assaultive) and/or perverse (Rape, Child Molestation) behavior are acting in accord with satanic influence.

Satan as an idea might be influencial, as so many memes are, but asserting that an actual invisible magic entity exists to influence something would require something more than just baseless assertions to be believed. It did require something more than baseless assertions for you to believe it, did it not?