Modesty?

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

Where does human modesty come from? Is there an evolutionary advantage to being modest?

I know that clothing was a human development to protect us from the elements, but there are many circumstances where clothing is not essential, now that we've developed to the point we have, with housing, heating and air conditioning, etc. Clothing is not needed indoors. (We don't need to wear clothes in church. :D )

What got me thinking about this was my recent dermatologist appointment, (or any doctor's physical for that matter) I'm completely undressed, and they still drape me, only to lift the drape to look at my skin. Doesn't make sense. :huh:

Why aren't we all nudists? No other animal is this modest, is it?

Just wondering.

If this belongs somewhere else, feel free to move it, mods.

SI

[Y.B]

I think this would simply be a cultural thing.

[IamMoose]

Now Now .. clothing came about after Eve at the forbidden fruit and realised that she was naked..

[badger3k]

Now Now .. clothing came about after Eve at the forbidden fruit and realised that she was naked..

I know that was a joke, but it does point out the basic cultural assumption the writers had that being naked is bad or shameful. I think (in part) the modern (or historical may be a better term) assumption has to do with status of the clothes wearer and distinctions within the social groups. It later took on more of a relation to animals (animals are naked, so a naked human is more like an animal and therefore "bad"). That's just a really, really simple view but it's the first I thought up. Not a bad research topic, though.

[King of Men]

A naked human, especially a male, is a bit more vulnerable to attack.

[badger3k]

A naked human, especially a male, is a bit more vulnerable to attack.

Mostly in the mind. Cloth won't stop a well-placed kick, and a shirt won't stop a punch or a knife. The amount of kinetic energy it might stop is pretty negligible, from what I remember.
:cool:

[Supersonic 77]

A naked human, especially a male, is a bit more vulnerable to attack.
I would argue that, depending on location, it can make humans more vulnerable to the elements in general, rather than attack. Somewhere along the way in our own cultural ancestors, nudity became shameful. The shamefulness of nudity is a cultural construct, and over the ages in our society it's been heavily tied into religion and its views of sex and morality. We're socialized into modesty--other cultures aren't, or haven't traditionally been.

[Santas little helper]

Regarding what other cultures do I've watched documentaries with
African tribes and both genders had their genitals covered (but not breasts).Or
was that just western influence ?

[badger3k]

Regarding what other cultures do I've watched documentaries with
African tribes and both genders had their genitals covered (but not breasts).Or
was that just western influence ?

Considering that most socieites cover their genitals, I'd say that was a general human cultural trait and not a western influence. I know some cultures that have the penile-sheaths, which I doubt were a western influence!

I think a better look at nudity and taboos (modesty) are in other situations. We'd need to look at prohibitions on public nudity, such things as bathing (do the sexes mingle?) or differences between children and adults. Probably a lot more as well. I think there are differences between types of modesty and taboos (nudity might be acceptible in some situations but not in others).

One thing that I believe, in some areas after the missionaries took over (or spread their influence and beliefs), there was a shift in the native view of nudity (the Christian "shame-ethic" in action, I guess).

[Santas little helper]

But how could there be such a thing as a general human cultural trait ?
It would be quite a coincidence if the same trait developed over all of the
human species.

[Santas little helper]

In our closest relatives in the animal kingdom the genitals are bare while the
rest of the body tends to be covered with hair.With humans it's the other way
around.Is there any explanation for that ? If there is it may provide some clues
towards the modesty issue.

[Stella]

There may be status issues as well. An individual with more resources would be better able to protect themselves from the elements. Especially in cold climes. Clothing is really not optional if you are an innuit.

It's easy to see how having poor or inadequate clothing could be associated as a bad thing. Or how it could become, in places where the weather permits, more of a decorative status display even though coverage is minimal.

[whichphilosophy]

Where does human modesty come from? Is there an evolutionary advantage to being modest?

I know that clothing was a human development to protect us from the elements, but there are many circumstances where clothing is not essential, now that we've developed to the point we have, with housing, heating and air conditioning, etc. Clothing is not needed indoors. (We don't need to wear clothes in church. :D )

What got me thinking about this was my recent dermatologist appointment, (or any doctor's physical for that matter) I'm completely undressed, and they still drape me, only to lift the drape to look at my skin. Doesn't make sense. :huh:

Why aren't we all nudists? No other animal is this modest, is it?

Just wondering.

If this belongs somewhere else, feel free to move it, mods.

SI

Modesty came about after we started wearing clothing.

Before that I take it we had no word for naked because that is what we used to be going around as.

[RevDahlia]

Could it be that clothing has always been a kind of status display as well?

[badger3k]

But how could there be such a thing as a general human cultural trait ?
It would be quite a coincidence if the same trait developed over all of the
human species.

Human cultures do not exist in a vacuum. They are the result of thousands of years of development. What we see today is a result of that. If we posit that the development of genital covering was an early development, it could have spread over the world as people moved. This would assume that the development of clothing occurred long ago in prehistory, and was modified for the environment and other cultural differences (religion/myth/taboos/status/etc).

The other factor to consider is that the genitals are generally a little vulnerable, and covering them might give a psychological benefit to the wearer. This might mean that the idea could occur in many different regions on their own. Fertility cults seem to have been an early development, and that can contribute to the covering-idea as well.

I do want to restate that merely having such a covering does not indicate modesty. From what I remember, some forms of clothing (such as the breechclout) were signs of manhood (or adulthood) in some cultures. In some cases, kids are allowed to be naked until a certain age, when clothing is more or less forced on them.

In reference to coincidence, I don't think so. Humans are basically the same, and perhaps there is some genetic aspect to genital-covering that we are unaware of (perhaps dealing with sexual signalling or something like that - since we lack the coloration and other attributes of other primates). I think it is real hard to try to determine the origin of such behavior because it would have happend long ago - all we can look at today is how cultures today view the issue.

[Sapphire]

As human civilization begins to appear, members of it realize it more to the benefit of intimacy to cover their genitals and to reserve that privilege if we can call it that for their spouses. It may increase the number of successful reproductions to allow only one individual to see your privates in a sense of exclusiveness and to display your devotion and loyalty to one partner. Although the act of sexual intercourse has passed through many centuries, losing its fundamental purpose of perpetuating life, we, the carrier of complex emotions understand the pleasant feeling of being loved. However to share that love with another existence of the human race does not bring a warming feeling to the heart. Unlike creatures of lesser intelligence who sets the survival of their species as their first priority therefore justifying mating with different partners, we are very much emotion-oriented and they dictate our actions. To preserve a relationship, one must prevent events which would entice a straying. Have your partner's reproductive organs for public viewing definitely allows for a situation to arise. Plus, such a sighting sets the stage for extensive judgement of one's body and it is inevitable for one to develop specific genitial attractions or even requirements which can set a hurdle in the course of finding a compatible mate if you do not possess the desired body. Upon meeting a partner, they may immediately judge one another on superficial bases and if one or the other do not fulfill a certain criteria, they are denied. This could have potentially posed a serious risk to the survival of mankind back in the days. I do not believe our avoidance of nudity is linked with modesty.

[travc]

Greek bras (if you can really call wrapping the breasts a bra) are considdered by some (including myself) more of a convience matter than a modesty thing. Breasts can get bouncy and annoying (and painful) when a woman is walking or doing other activity (or so I am told... or more accurately complained to). Seems weird that it is relatively common to expose the breasts in "primitive" cultures though if it makes practical sense to bind them... then again we have foot binding, long nails, and other "lets show off by making our wemon more useless" sorts of bullshit.

I think I favor the "status symbol" theory. However, that doesn't answer the OP. It does seem to true that "modesty" is a very general cultural trait. Maybe showing sexual arousal (except in controlled situations) has some negative social impacts that lead to the usefulness of hiding it?

[premjan]

I guess the Greek foreskin binders, and the New Guinean penis gourds are intriguing forms of clothing.

[David B]

Where does human modesty come from? Is there an evolutionary advantage to being modest?

I know that clothing was a human development to protect us from the elements, but there are many circumstances where clothing is not essential, now that we've developed to the point we have, with housing, heating and air conditioning, etc. Clothing is not needed indoors. (We don't need to wear clothes in church. :D )

What got me thinking about this was my recent dermatologist appointment, (or any doctor's physical for that matter) I'm completely undressed, and they still drape me, only to lift the drape to look at my skin. Doesn't make sense. :huh:

Why aren't we all nudists? No other animal is this modest, is it?

Just wondering.

If this belongs somewhere else, feel free to move it, mods.

SI

What an interesting question! Quite a lot of intriguing things to think about in the responses so far, as well. I think Badger is right in suggesting that this is part of a wider question. Sapphire made some interesting points which appear to me to be very plausible as well.

I understand that seeking privacy during sexual intercourse is a general human trait, though perhaps exceptions could be found during certain rites and/or festivals. Human beings are, I suggest, vulnerable to attack by both animal predators and other humans during sexual intercourse.

I'd speculate that clothing has been used to differentiate tribe from tribe, in the same way that it has been suggested that dietary taboos to differentiate tribe from tribe.

When I introspect about my own wearing of clothes when the weather doesn't require them, then I see that it is clearly the result of cultural taboos, which I obey in order not to get arrested, and to avoid appearing to be more eccentric that I wish to appear. When I go swimming I tend to find a local beach which is sparcely populated, and swim and lie in the sun naked - and where often some of the other people there are also naked.

I'll follow this thread with some interest.

David B

[premjan]

Basically we don't want to reveal it every time we are turned on, do we? And in most places, it is too cold to go without any clothes.

[Spanish_Inquisitor]

My inquiry was not directed so much at why we wear clothes, but why we make an exta big deal about covering up the pubic areas of our bodies.

Again, no other animal does this. As far as I know. It's peculiar to humans. Does it have something to do with why we have hair there, and relatively nowhere else other than our heads and armpits? Dawkins touches on this in "The Ancestors Tale", claiming that humans lost their hair , except in those certain areas, so that we could advertise to prospective sexual partners that we were parasite free. No hair, no parasites. The remaining hair we have, esp. in the pubic area, is to facilitate the distribution of pheromones (I think that's it, I'm posting this from memory).

But how does all that translate to being modest about those areas? We don't necessarily hide our armpits. Or our heads. So it probably has nothing to do with hair.

I've been on beaches where the women have no problem uncovering their breasts (and why shouldn't they? Men do.) But they still are modest about uncovering their bottoms. I'm more inclined to think it is cultural, which may be partially influenced by the religious aspect (Adam and Eve covering themselves in shame after eating the forbidden fruit, and all that resulted from that mindset). I can see no selective advantage to covering those areas up.

So, back to the OP, why don't we free ourselves of such cultural and religious baggage, and become nudists? :D

SI

[EricK]

In our closest relatives in the animal kingdom the genitals are bare while the
rest of the body tends to be covered with hair.With humans it's the other way
around.Is there any explanation for that ? If there is it may provide some clues
towards the modesty issue.
I have read that this is a consequence of human's neoteny (i.e. they resemble baby or even embryonic primates). I don't know how well accepted this explanation is though.

Eric

[badger3k]

My inquiry was not directed so much at why we wear clothes, but why we make an exta big deal about covering up the pubic areas of our bodies.

Again, no other animal does this. As far as I know. It's peculiar to humans. Does it have something to do with why we have hair there, and relatively nowhere else other than our heads and armpits? Dawkins touches on this in "The Ancestors Tale", claiming that humans lost their hair , except in those certain areas, so that we could advertise to prospective sexual partners that we were parasite free. No hair, no parasites. The remaining hair we have, esp. in the pubic area, is to facilitate the distribution of pheromones (I think that's it, I'm posting this from memory).

But how does all that translate to being modest about those areas? We don't necessarily hide our armpits. Or our heads. So it probably has nothing to do with hair.

I've been on beaches where the women have no problem uncovering their breasts (and why shouldn't they? Men do.) But they still are modest about uncovering their bottoms. I'm more inclined to think it is cultural, which may be partially influenced by the religious aspect (Adam and Eve covering themselves in shame after eating the forbidden fruit, and all that resulted from that mindset). I can see no selective advantage to covering those areas up.

So, back to the OP, why don't we free ourselves of such cultural and religious baggage, and become nudists? :D

SI

Because it's frigging cold in the winter? Because where I live, sunburn on the genitals is a bad thing? Because I'd have no place to clip my cellphone or put my wallet (that won't be damned inconvenient and painful)? Because - have you seen the majority of Americans? Do you really want to see them nude (think of a Jerry Springer show, for example)?

:crying:

:D

Of course, modesty is cultural - but if you want an explanation for that, I'd recommend finding some anthropolgy texts on cultural development and nudity taboos, for a start.

The topless beach example reveals the cultural conditioning the people have undergone. When you are taught from an early age that the genitals need to be covered in most situations, you tend to maintain that, especially if there are laws or social conventions to reinforce that. At straight nude beaches, the people will wear (or bare) what they feel comfortable with. It also has to do with self-image and confidence as well as the social aspects.

You have to look at the development of clothing among humans and the reasons for that before you can make guesses on why particular forms of clothes became required for certain situations. The concept of modesty did not develop in a vacuum. Of course, we are all leaving out the possibility that one individual in the past was laughed at for his size, and forced everyone in his tribe to wear coverings. :cool:

(Yeah, I know, modesty and ego/problems of size or shape really go hand in hand as well, but it isn't as funny when you think of that)