Pope in the Hitler Youth - Records locked for 35 years

[Steven Carr]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1468978,00.html

The National Secular Newsline reports that the Bavarian seminary has now locked away records of Ratzinger's service in the Hitler Youth for 35 years.

I'm sure we will all find out in 35 years that there was nothing to hide...

http://www.secularism.org.uk/thechurchesingermanybeforeandaft.html is also an interesting article on churches and Nazi Germany.

[TexasAWOL]

I have heard Ratzinger speak openly about this....
Now, before you misunderstand me, I am in NO WAY sticking up for the Catholics- I am neither Catholic, nor a believer in any of their doctrines. :banghead:

However, if you'll allow me to bring up a point: I dont know this to be TRUE- just that this is what Ratzinger said:
He said publicly that YES, he WAS in Hitler's Youth for many years. At one point, he ESACAPED, when he saw it for what it was- he was found, and returned, and made to stay in the "program"- or else....
I'm NOT "Pope defending"- nope, don't care about the Pope! ;)

However- he SEEMS to be making some attempts at repairing some wrong that the RCC comitted against the Jews.
I know a Rabbi, that got to have an interview with him- before he became the Pope- The Rabbi had very positive things to say about him.
I "ain't" sticking up for the man, but it sounds like he's trying to make some amends between Catholics and Jews.

TEXASAWOL :)

[Alethias]

The catholic church of the day looked the other way when informed of Hitler's atrocities. It is not inconsistent for a pope to have been in hitler's youth.

If it were popular and accepted for people to look with favor upon hitler and his Nazi's, would Ratzinger's story about this be different? I wonder.

If the Nazi's had won, Ratzinger would be the current pope, and he'd be proud that he was in the Hitler Youth. At least that's my take on it.

Of course in that circumstance I wouldn't have even been born probably, since i'm of jewish heritage.

[CowboyHeretic]

I am not even mildly surprised that the Catholics are being led by a former Nazi. I am astonished that the Nazi war machine could not annihilate the jews and even more astonished that the combined forces of the Arab world could not defeat Israel. Could it be that there really is something to the jews claim of being a special people to G-d?

[jaded_revenge]

If they where, then perhaps they wouldn't be one of the smallest and endangered races on earth. Oh, its spelt G o d.

[Columbus]

I am astonished that the Nazi war machine could not annihilate the jews and even more astonished that the combined forces of the Arab world could not defeat Israel. Could it be that there really is something to the jews claim of being a special people to G-d?Here is something interesting, a theistic claim that can be examined.

It was first made by the Israelites about 3500 years ago. About 3000 years ago the Assyrians completely obliterated most of them. About 2500 years ago the Babylonians wiped out most of the rest. Cyrus let those willing to go return to Jerusalem. About 2000 years ago the Romans obliterated Judea. I don't see any sign that G-d held them in any special regard.

Hitler destroyed millions without any sign that G-d was upset. It was human interference that prevented him from killing them all. The Arabian neighbors grossly underestimated the military of the state set up by humans after WWII, but I still don't see any evidence at all that G-d ever played favorites. What I see is that military might makes right. When the Jews had it they oppressed their neighbors quite violently. When they didn't, they sometimes got whacked brutally.

No CH, I don't see anything to the claim that the Jews are a "Chosen People". Quite the opposite, if the Romans hadn't leveled Judea and driven out the people, the Jews would all have converted to Islam in the 8th century like everyone else in those parts did.

Tom

[hinduwoman]

Was not everyone joining Hitler youth practically mandataory back then? If you did not, awful things happened to you and your family?
If so, he has an excuse.

[Eldarion Lathria]

I excuse Ratzi the Nazi for his military service. It was compulsory, there was no real alternative. The Hitler Youth thing, I don't know. Some were just in it for the uniform, the games, and the fact that on the days they had meetings, teachers were forbidden to give homework to Hitler Youth members. He may have been one of those.

His activities as an adult cannot be excused.


Eldarion Lathria

[Steven Carr]

However, if you'll allow me to bring up a point: I dont know this to be TRUE- just that this is what Ratzinger said:
He said publicly that YES, he WAS in Hitler's Youth for many years. At one point, he ESACAPED, when he saw it for what it was- he was found, and returned, and made to stay in the "program"- or else....


Really? When did you hear Papa Razzi (I love that pun, no offence intended to Catholics) say that he escaped from Hitler's Youth , and was 'found'? Where was he hiding for example?

Actually, BBC TV recently had a number of programmes explaining how people in the Hitler Youth were brainwashed into supporting Naziism. I thought that was overstating the mark.

[Steven Carr]

I excuse Ratzi the Nazi for his military service. It was compulsory, there was no real alternative.

Ask the Jehovah's Witnesses. They found an alternative. Of course, that took guts on their part. But you did not have to serve if you really valued your principles enough.

I saw a metal book in Neuss, detailing the local citizens who fell foul of the Nazis for standing up against them. They were all communists of JWs.

[IRON MAN]

Ask the Jehovah's Witnesses. They found an alternative. Of course, that took guts on their part. But you did not have to serve if you really valued your principles enough.

I saw a metal book in Neuss, detailing the local citizens who fell foul of the Nazis for standing up against them. They were all communists of JWs.

Be carefull about believeing everything they say about themselves. My wife is a JW, and I notice in reading their material they go out of their way to blow their own trumpets on stuff like this.

I heard one claim that all the Jews were collabortating with the Nazis while the heroes, (and coincidently the authors), of the story the JWs, to a man, opposed the Nazi's.

I think this is sly use of the "No True Scotsman Fallacy". Any JW who didn't oppose the Nazi's would not be a real JW, so you can discount them. But don't give the Jews the same benefit of the doubt.

If they really stuck up for their religion, then they would have refused to wear the purple triangle, (like the Jewish yellow star), that marked them as JWs at all. On the one hand they want to bring the purple triangle up to exemplify their suffering, (which according to their implications was about a billion times worse than any Jew suffered), but on the other want to say that they totally refused to play ball with the Nazis, (unlike those collaborating Jewish bastards).

I find their story in its absoluteness very hard to swallow especially when considered in the light of their cult paranoia that every non-JW in the world spends every waking hour working out schemes to oppose their religion, (so therefore they must be the true religion).

I have no problem with people suffering and dying for their beliefs, and I would not like to play down anyone of any belief who opposed the Nazis, even if they were JW, but I think to a large degree this shit just don't gel.

My wife's father was in the Hitler Youth by the way, (not a JW). He's dead now, but was an over-agressive violent arsehole.

[Steven Carr]

Be carefull about believeing everything they say about themselves. My wife is a JW, and I notice in reading their material they go out of their way to blow their own trumpets on stuff like this.


The metal book did not lie. Of course, only a minority in the book were JWs

I'm not sure why the town council of Neuss would create such a memorial to the people who were persecuted by the Nazis , if only a few JWs resisted.

And if the percentage of JWs who found that there *was* an alternative to serving in the Wehrmacht was small , it is still a bigger percentage than the percentage of future Popes, who , it seems, were not prepared to be persecuted for their beliefs.

[Dryhad]

I once read a quote by a former Hitler youth person that was something to the effect of "I was just a misguided kid". Being in a youth organisation when one is a child doesn't make one a bad pope, even if said organisation is designed for the support of an evil government.

[Steven Carr]

http://www.feldgrau.com/interview4.html

'A Saturday sports program was mandated in school for those kids who were not members of the Hitler Youth. Many Berliners were opposed to the Nazis and in my school class 90% of the students were not members of the Hitler Youth. '

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/education/bitesize/standard/other/sos/history/people_and_power/answerpower_47.shtml

' In fact, membership of the Hitler Youth was almost compulsory for young Germans, aged 10 to 18. The main aim of the movement was to prepare young Germans to be loyal Nazis when they were adults. Also, boys were prepared for military service, and children of both sexes were encouraged to report on any adults, including neighbours, teachers and family members, who made critical comments about the Nazi government.'

Of course, the future Pope Benedict did not do any of this, as we will find out in 35 years time when records are released by the Catholic church.

[DougLDS]

I Could it be that there really is something to the jews claim of being a special people to G-d?

No, not really. It's called living on borrowed time and the US Dollar.

[IRON MAN]

The metal book did not lie. Of course, only a minority in the book were JWs

I'm not sure why the town council of Neuss would create such a memorial to the people who were persecuted by the Nazis , if only a few JWs resisted.

And if the percentage of JWs who found that there *was* an alternative to serving in the Wehrmacht was small , it is still a bigger percentage than the percentage of future Popes, who , it seems, were not prepared to be persecuted for their beliefs.

I don't doubt that there were many brave people from all religions and beliefs that told the Nazis to go shove it, and I hold these individuals in great esteem, but the way the JWs tell it, they were just about the only ones, and it was just about all of them.

".... History recognizes that only a few groups courageously stood up and spoke out against Nazi terror. Among them were Jehovah's Witnesses, described as "a tiny island of unflagging [moral] resistance existing in the bosom of a terrorized nation ..."

http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/1998/7/8/article_01.htm

Read this article, on the official JW website. In this they are defending themselves from accusations that they attempted to collaborate with the Nazis at an organisational level.

Their rebuttal and appologetics are so weak that I think you may learn more from reading this, than any article actually making the accusations in the first place.

As an example:

Critics further state that the Witnesses opened the convention with the German national anthem. Actually, the convention began with "Zion's Glorious Hope," Song 64 in the Witnesses' religious songbook. The words of this song were set to music composed by Joseph Haydn in 1797. Song 64 had been in the Bible Students' songbook since at least 1905. In 1922 the German government adopted Haydn's melody with words by Hoffmann von Fallersleben as their national anthem. Nevertheless, the Bible Students in Germany still sang their Song 64 occasionally, as did Bible Students in other countries.

The singing of a song about Zion could hardly be construed as an effort to placate the Nazis. Under pressure from anti-Semitic Nazis, other churches removed Hebrew terms such as "Judah," "Jehovah," and "Zion" from their hymnals and liturgies. Jehovah's Witnesses did not. The convention organizers, then, certainly did not expect to win favor with the government by singing a song extolling Zion. Possibly, some delegates may have been reluctant to sing "Zion's Glorious Hope," since the melody of this composition by Haydn was the same as that of the national anthem.

In other words, they just happened to select song 64, to sing at a pollitical meeting, that just happened to have the same tune as the German National Anthem, and it just so happened that nobody sung the words of song 64 that would have distinguished it from the German National Anthem if this were the case.

Oh please. :rolleyes: Who the fuck do they think they're kidding?

[Alethias]

Could it be that there really is something to the jews claim of being a special people to G-d?
It's common amongst christians to claim that their god is responsible for the good that happens and blame themselves for the bad. Doesn't ever occur to them that he is responsible for both if he is capable of being responsible for one.

It was first made by the Israelites about 3500 years ago. About 3000 years ago the Assyrians completely obliterated most of them. About 2500 years ago the Babylonians wiped out most of the rest. Cyrus let those willing to go return to Jerusalem. About 2000 years ago the Romans obliterated Judea. I don't see any sign that G-d held them in any special regard.

Hitler destroyed millions without any sign that G-d was upset. It was human interference that prevented him from killing them all. The Arabian neighbors grossly underestimated the military of the state set up by humans after WWII, but I still don't see any evidence at all that G-d ever played favorites. What I see is that military might makes right. When the Jews had it they oppressed their neighbors quite violently. When they didn't, they sometimes got whacked brutally.
Here we see that the christians learned this game from the jews. Claiming that your god is responsible for the good and not responsible for the bad just doesn't wash.

If this christian and jewish god existed, he would be a horrendous evil pig for perpretating all this evil shit on his 'chosen' people.

I'm happy Papa Ratzi is embarrassed by his hitler youth service and wants the details of it hidden. At least this shows a little bit of shame at the atrocity of catholic complicity with the nazi's.

[CowboyHeretic]

It's common amongst christians to claim that their god is responsible for the good that happens and blame themselves for the bad. Doesn't ever occur to them that he is responsible for both if he is capable of being responsible for one.


Here we see that the christians learned this game from the jews. Claiming that your god is responsible for the good and not responsible for the bad just doesn't wash.

If this christian and jewish god existed, he would be a horrendous evil pig for perpretating all this evil shit on his 'chosen' people.

I'm happy Papa Ratzi is embarrassed by his hitler youth service and wants the details of it hidden. At least this shows a little bit of shame at the atrocity of catholic complicity with the nazi's.

Well, dang!! I agree G-d is responsible for what we see as good and evil.

[TexasAWOL]

Really? When did you hear Papa Razzi (I love that pun, no offence intended to Catholics) say that he escaped from Hitler's Youth , and was 'found'? Where was he hiding for example?

Actually, BBC TV recently had a number of programmes explaining how people in the Hitler Youth were brainwashed into supporting Naziism. I thought that was overstating the mark.

Hi Steven! Nice to meet you. :)
I heard this, from a Rabbi, that met with Ratzinger, BEFORE he was made POPE....

Just an FYI.... I'm not defending Ratzinger.

shalom!
TEXASAWOL :wave:

[Steven Carr]

Hi Steven! Nice to meet you. :)
I heard this, from a Rabbi, that met with Ratzinger, BEFORE he was made POPE....


So you really have no idea what is meant by 'escaping from Hitler Youth'?

[Triple Six]

For a normal young German citizen of the day I can accept without any ill feeling that they were obliged to join the Hitler Youth.

However for god's supposed representative on earth I would have thought higher standards applied here.