An 'offence'

[IamMoose]

Am rereading Stephen King's 'It' right now - excellent book - and one of the characters makes an interesting observation .. this is my paraphrase cos I don't have it in front of me right now:

'You can go to your churches and read about your Jesus walking on water but if I saw a man do that, I wouldn't call it a miracle. I would call it an offence .'

That really struck me because that puts into words something I have felt subconsciously for years but have never really been able to articulate. Walking on water, feeding five thousand with one loaf and a cpl fishes, coming back from the dead .. these things are offences against logic. I would not, if I saw them, fall down and praise God - I would be frightened, and wary, but also .. yeah, offended because they would be things that went against everything that I understand and believe about the world.

More to the point, I sometimes think there's an element of doublethink involved in the ability to read and believe the bible. Christians might believe, on the conscious level, that these things happened but on the subconscious level I wonder if they really expect to ever see such a thing themselves.. if they really believe that such things can really BE.

Am i making any sense? *looks slightly unsure*

[Y.B]

Am i making any sense? *looks slightly unsure*

Kinda... meaning that it would be scary. And yeah, now that I think about it, 'offenced' is actually a good description of what I'd feel. Never thought of that before.

[Hedshaker]

You make greeat sense. What sort of a God would create nature with all it's beauty only to then defile it through miracles just to show off?

:thumbs:

Orbit

[IamMoose]

Yeah. I don't mean offence, obviously, in the term that it's popularly used, ie a crime or something. But just something that's .. I dunno, that's offence to my senses and my sense of logic because it shouldn't be, it ISN'T physically possible...

[Alethias]

If i saw jesus heal the sick or walk on water or feed 1000's with a few fish and a loaf of bread, i'd just assume is was done by some type of technology that was beyond my knowledge and awareness. More importantly, I would not assume it was actually a miracle.

[IamMoose]

I think I'd assume that I'd finally had one beer too many and was having DTs ;)

[sharon45]

You make greeat sense. What sort of a God would create nature with all it's beauty only to then defile it through miracles just to show off?Yeah. I don't mean offence, obviously, in the term that it's popularly used, ie a crime or something. But just something that's .. I dunno, that's offence to my senses and my sense of logic because it shouldn't be, it ISN'T physically possible...I agree with both.

Showing off is what jesus does a lot whether with miracles or with asserting his supposed knowledge and wisdom.

Also as in the offense that he attacks logic. Much of what he says and does is either not needed, impossible, ignorant, contradictory, not supported, a lie, or redundant.

I take offense to these because:

1. The miracles are an example of too little too late.

2. The miracles say nothing about the proformer's real mission, identity, and integrity.

3. A lot of these miracles contradict some of his teachings and the OT teachings.

4. His supposed knowledge and wisdom often conflicts with itself, himself, and with OT teachings.

5. His supposed knowledge and wisdom often conflicts with his supposed real mission, identity, and integrity.

The NT is at war with logic.

[MonCapitan2002]

If i saw jesus heal the sick or walk on water or feed 1000's with a few fish and a loaf of bread, i'd just assume is was done by some type of technology that was beyond my knowledge and awareness. More importantly, I would not assume it was actually a miracle.
More than likely, that would be the case. If someone from a bronze age civilisation were to see a plane take off, he or she would likely consider that to be some kind of miracle. I think I remember hearing of a phrase that a sufficiently advanced technology would appear to be magic to those too unsophisticated to understand it.

[IamMoose]

I saw David Blaine levitate on TV and though I did an exhaustive google search, I still have no clue as to how it was done .. though it was cool :). I am damn sure it was not a miracle though *

*does anyone know how it IS done?

[IamMoose]

3. A lot of these miracles contradict some of his teachings and the OT teachings.

They do? that sounds really interesting . .which ones and how? :)

[Mickie]

More to the point, I sometimes think there's an element of doublethink involved in the ability to read and believe the bible. Christians might believe, on the conscious level, that these things happened but on the subconscious level I wonder if they really expect to ever see such a thing themselves.. if they really believe that such things can really BE.

There are good examples that this is, indeed, the case:

How many "Jesus Christs" do we have in mental wards. They are waiting for the 2nd coming isn't it a shame he'll be wearing that cute white jacket where the arms tie in the back. Maybe he's testing them and they keep failing over and over... no faith ya know.

When someone commits a crime because "God told them to" do they think, for even a moment, that god REALLY talked to them or do they slap their asses in jail? How do they know god DIDN'T tell them to kill all their children. God works in mysterious ways ya know.

[CowboyHeretic]

Pro 19:3 The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.

If we see only the things of this world then we can not know the power of G-d. One chooses a myopic version of reality.

[kas]

Pro 19:3 The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.

If we see only the things of this world then we can not know the power of G-d. One chooses a myopic version of reality.

How do you know that when you "know" the power of god (or gid/gud/gad/ged/gyd? :huh: ) that it is not your foolishness pervertething your way? If you can't trust your senses, what can you trust? Your assumptions?

I'd rather be myopic than wrong :cool: . I can make testable predictions based on my "myopic" version of reality. Can you?

[Kassiana]

I think something that so challenges one's worldview can indeed be seen as offensive. For example, I play a roleplaying game where there are characters who are vampires. I have an idea for a vampire character who is insane. She couldn't handle the idea that there were really vampires in the world, so in order to keep herself from going completely around the bend when she was turned into a vampire, she believes she's an actor in a TV series pretending to be a vampire. She sees vampire "powers" as just camera tricks and special effects.

I don't think that's out of the question for an ordinary person confronted with something s/he "knows" at a fundamental level is untrue.

[Nero's Boot]

I think something that so challenges one's worldview can indeed be seen as offensive. For example, I play a roleplaying game where there are characters who are vampires. I have an idea for a vampire character who is insane. She couldn't handle the idea that there were really vampires in the world, so in order to keep herself from going completely around the bend when she was turned into a vampire, she believes she's an actor in a TV series pretending to be a vampire. She sees vampire "powers" as just camera tricks and special effects.

I don't think that's out of the question for an ordinary person confronted with something s/he "knows" at a fundamental level is untrue.

Malkavian, eh?

--or, wait, is this Vampire: The Requiem? Then I'll go with "Ventrue with low Humanity" :) NB

[sharon45]

3. A lot of these miracles contradict some of his teachings and the OT teachings.They do? that sounds really interesting . .which ones and how? :)Here is one I can give that does both.

Luke 13:10-17

10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues,
11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all.
12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, "Woman, you are set free from your infirmity."
13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, "There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath."

15 The Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?
16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"

17When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

Matthew 5:17-20

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Exodus 20:8-11

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Deuteronomy 5:12-15

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.
13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

The thing that jesus can't figure out is that it doesn't matter even if it were possible that everyone acted as what he says they do on the Sabbath, this would of course still leave him with no excuse either.

Whether a humble servant of god, Messiah, or even god himself, it would be contradictory to not uphold the Sabbath Law.

[CowboyHeretic]

Here is one I can give that does both.

Luke 13:10-17

10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues,
11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all.
12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, "Woman, you are set free from your infirmity."
13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, "There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath."

15 The Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?
16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"

17When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

Matthew 5:17-20

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Exodus 20:8-11

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Deuteronomy 5:12-15

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.
13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

The thing that jesus can't figure out is that it doesn't matter even if it were possible that everyone acted as what he says they do on the Sabbath, this would of course still leave him with no excuse either.

Whether a humble servant of god, Messiah, or even god himself, it would be contradictory to not uphold the Sabbath Law.

Jesus was teaching that the legalism that the Pharisees had imposed upon men was not in keeping with the law. the Pharisees had transformed the Sabbath into a burden on men. The Sabbath is not supposed to be a burden, it is supposed to be a day of rest and reflection.
It is interesting that you chose the Sabbath as your example as G-d has always used the Sabbath as the test commandment. Perhaps you are drawing nearer to Him?

[trendkill]

I can't imagine being 'offended' in such a way. I guess I'm not that attached to any worldview.

I saw David Blaine levitate on TV and though I did an exhaustive google search, I still have no clue as to how it was done .. though it was cool :). I am damn sure it was not a miracle though *

*does anyone know how it IS done?
This is the explanation I've heard: he turns his back and goes up on his toes in such a way that it looks to the people standing behind him as if he's levitating slightly. It's a good trick, but it only works if viewed from a certain angle. When they televise it, they cheat by cutting to a faked shot of him with both feet off the ground.

[Queen of Swords]

If i saw jesus heal the sick or walk on water or feed 1000's with a few fish and a loaf of bread, i'd just assume is was done by some type of technology that was beyond my knowledge and awareness.

That reminds me of the joke about how it's not a miracle to feed thousands with only a loaf of bread, because United Airlines does this on every flight.

[IamMoose]

Pro 19:3 The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.

If we see only the things of this world then we can not know the power of G-d. One chooses a myopic version of reality.

Ah so because you are a Christian you see things that are NOT of this world then? Do share :)

[IamMoose]

This is the explanation I've heard: he turns his back and goes up on his toes in such a way that it looks to the people standing behind him as if he's levitating slightly. It's a good trick, but it only works if viewed from a certain angle. When they televise it, they cheat by cutting to a faked shot of him with both feet off the ground.

Really? that's dead disappointing, I was imagining something complex to do with magnets. Still, when I saw it on TV people were watching him from the front and they seemed impressed. You'd have to be fairly dumb to be convinced he was levitating if he was just rising up on his toes.

[Stephen T-B]

CowboyHeritic's comment: "If we see only the things of this world then we can not know the power of G-d" is a justification for superstitious beliefs.

Mr B and Mr A live on a remote Pacific island and have never encountered any modern technologies. One day, a waterproof radio washes up on the beach. While examining it closely, Mr A accidentally switches it on, and a voice is heard.
Magic! He realises this must be a work of god, so builds a shrine and starts worshipping the radio.
Mr B, who was always a sceptic (English spelling), sneaks in at night when Mr A is asleep and dismantles it (putting it back together again before dawn). He learns, through the repeated processes of taking it apart and rebuilding it, that it is a receiver and that there is nothing magical about it at all.

CowboyHeretic: You are also on the island - do you join Mr A's Radio Cult, or do you let Mr B talk you into believing there are such things as radio waves and batteries which store an invisible form of energy?

[ManM]

That really struck me because that puts into words something I have felt subconsciously for years but have never really been able to articulate. Walking on water, feeding five thousand with one loaf and a cpl fishes, coming back from the dead .. these things are offences against logic. I would not, if I saw them, fall down and praise God - I would be frightened, and wary, but also .. yeah, offended because they would be things that went against everything that I understand and believe about the world.

Why assume that miracles are unnatural? I find it far easier to believe that there are flaws with our current knowledge about the world. It may very well be that the scientists 1000 years down the line look back at the arguments against miracles and chuckle at us. Personally, I find miracles exciting. Perhaps someday we will figure out how to walk on water. :)

[Dean Anderson]

They do? that sounds really interesting . .which ones and how? :)

If we look at Paul's first letter to the Corinthians (the earliest Christian document we have - older than the Gospels), we see this...

1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought.
1 Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Cor 1:21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
1 Cor 1:22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
1 Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
1 Cor 1:24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Cor 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Paul is here railing against both the Greeks with their philosophical arguments and against the Jews with their miracles and wonders - claiming that Christianity's lack of either is a strength rather than a weakness.

He is saying that the lack of miracles in Christianity is a "stumbling block" to the potential Jewish converts - in that there are no signs or miracles for them to believe, only the "foolishness" of pure faith-without-evidence. Of course, he spins this by making such pure faith the supreme virtue.

Do you really think that Paul would talk like that about the lack of miracles in Christianity if there had been lots of them performed by Jesus in recent times that were well recorded? It should also be noted that not once in Pauls writings does he ever mention a miracle performed by Jesus.

If the words of Paul aren't good enough for you, how about the alleged words of Jesus himself...

Matt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
Matt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
Matt 12:40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he said these things, a certain woman out of the multitude lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the breasts which thou didst suck.
Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Luke 11:29 And when the multitudes were gathering together unto him, he began to say, This generation is an evil generation: it seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah.


These two passages show Jesus saying the same thing - but are set at different times and have different audiences. They are a classic example of what is known as a "Q" saying. When the authors of Matthew and Luke wrote their Gospels, they both used Mark as a source for the basic story, but also included lots of sayings that appear to come from a second source now lost to us (and which is usually labelled "Q" for "Quelle" - the German equivalent of calling it "S" for "source"). However, this second source appears to have been pretty much only a list of quotations without much context - since the two authors take the same quotes out of it (often word-for-word, indicating that this source was almost certainly a written source rather than an oral tradition) but place them in different contexts.

This in itself is a good indicator that the miracle stories have a literary, rather than a historical purpose - but this particular saying quoted above makes an even stronger case.

In this saying, Jesus is explicitly saying that there will be no miracles to convince his generation - with the possible exception of his resurrection. It looks extremely out of place in those gospels, since it is surrounded by stories of just the type of miracle that it is denying will happen.

However, once we realise the context - that the quote was lifted from an earlier list of sayings - we see that, like Paul's letter, the earlier text explicitly denies miraculous happenings and the miracles listed in the Gospels are a later addition to an existing story.

[lpetrich]

(Jesus Christ's Sabbath-breaking...)
Jesus was teaching that the legalism that the Pharisees had imposed upon men was not in keeping with the law. ...What's "legalism"? Is that anything more than a dirty word?

[Damo]

I think I remember hearing of a phrase that a sufficiently advanced technology would appear to be magic to those too unsophisticated to understand it.

from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_law)

Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

[Eldarion Lathria]

As far as walking on water is concerned, a number of insects and the Jesucristo lizard does it now.

Eldarion Lathria

[Stephen T-B]

Maybe Jesus had huge, very hairy feet which trapped bubbles of air and acted like floats?.
Or he was so light, he didn't break the surface tension?
He might have had nothing inside him at all, being partially a god. Perhaps he had to go around with lots of stones in his pockets so he didn't get blown away by a gust of wind?

[IamMoose]

Well yes but you wouldn't mistake one of those for a man unless you'd had a few .. :)

[Kassiana]

Malkavian, eh?

--or, wait, is this Vampire: The Requiem? Then I'll go with "Ventrue with low Humanity" :) NB
Could be a Malk, or a Toreador with a derangement.

There is no Requiem. White Wolf's decision to destroy their former RP world is not recognized by me. :D

[Stumpjumper]

Am rereading Stephen King's 'It' right now - excellent book - and one of the characters makes an interesting observation .. this is my paraphrase cos I don't have it in front of me right now:

'You can go to your churches and read about your Jesus walking on water but if I saw a man do that, I wouldn't call it a miracle. I would call it an offence .'

Am i making any sense? *looks slightly unsure*

Hi Moose

Not a big fan of Stephen King but what you wrote does make sense. I have always seen something deeper in the walking on water miracle. In fact, I have can find a deeper message in every miracle in the NT but you know time life etc. But in the Gospel where Jesus is walking on water all twelve disciples are in a boat and Jesus is walking out to them. Peter sees Jesus coming and the disciples think Jesus is a ghost. Peter actually says "Master if that is truly you coming make it so I can walk out to you (I dont have a Bible right now so these are not direct quotes). Peter steps out of the boat and he did not sink initially. Peter took some steps towards Jesus and he did not sink because he showed faith. Then Peter looks down and pulls a Wile-E-Coyote and goes in the water.

The message is that the disciples though Jesus was an "offence." They, all but Peter, thought it was a ghost approaching them. Peter was filled with faith and left the safety of the boat to come to the Lord. While he was walking towards Jesus he was above the water but when he looked back to the boat and the water he sank.

[CowboyHeretic]

(Jesus Christ's Sabbath-breaking...)
What's "legalism"? Is that anything more than a dirty word?

The Pharisee's had developed a complex code of conduct that was too complex for the people to comprehend. It was based on thier "interpretations" of the Torah but was not the actual Torah. They (the Pharisee's) conveiniently exempted themselves from most of this code. Jesus taught that because of this, they had lost the spirt of G-d's Law. Jesus' life and teachings are the Way. The resurrection of Jesus was about the failure of the Levitical system.

[IamMoose]

Hi ST,

That reminds me of the 'faith can move mountains' verse but the thing is .. it doesn't!! There are loads of people out there who sincerely, with all their being believe in God and Jesus and yet I don't see mountains flinging themselves into the sea :(.

[Stephen T-B]

If they did, what would be left of the Lake District, eh?

[Nero's Boot]

Could be a Malk, or a Toreador with a derangement.

There is no Requiem. White Wolf's decision to destroy their former RP world is not recognized by me. :D

Hah! Right now, I'm running an oWoD Time of Judgment chronicle, for Changeling: The Dreaming. But even so, my group and I will NEVER abandon the old World of Darkness. :) The nWoD is neat, but ultimately, no where near as fun as the old game lines.

--also, it's nice to meet a fellow roleplayer here! NB

[Nero's Boot]

The Pharisee's had developed a complex code of conduct that was too complex for the people to comprehend. It was based on thier "interpretations" of the Torah but was not the actual Torah. They (the Pharisee's) conveiniently exempted themselves from most of this code. Jesus taught that because of this, they had lost the spirt of G-d's Law. Jesus' life and teachings are the Way. The resurrection of Jesus was about the failure of the Levitical system.

Yeah, you're right.

--our soldiers in Iraq ought to be able to take rape-wives from the conquered populace NB

[Wads4]

Pro 19:3 The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.

If we see only the things of this world then we can not know the power of G-d. One chooses a myopic version of reality.

Which all goes to show the peverted ,distorted "reasoning " of the OT writers, and the damage they have done to human progress so far.

[Queen of Swords]

Perhaps someday we will figure out how to walk on water.

Wait till it's very very cold.

[IamMoose]

If they did, what would be left of the Lake District, eh?

Maybe they've already been moved .. some of them look a bit dumped :)

[Stumpjumper]

Hi ST,

That reminds me of the 'faith can move mountains' verse but the thing is .. it doesn't!! There are loads of people out there who sincerely, with all their being believe in God and Jesus and yet I don't see mountains flinging themselves into the sea :(.

Yes I know. Those passages about petitionary prayer have always been difficult to understand. On the one hand you have the Lord's Prayer that right before states don't be like the Pharisees and pray for things in public and babble on and on because God knows what you need even before you ask Him. I tend to view those passages before the Lords Prayer about teaching against petitionary prayer. Its one of those contradictions in the Bible that are tough to make sense about. I honestly do not prayer for rewards. I use meditative prayer for personal peace and strength. But there are many Christians that believe their faith can literally move mountains.

[IamMoose]

If we have free will and God doesn't intervene any form of petitionary prayer, even just for faith or strength or whatever is useless. If God DOES intervene then we have to ask why he lets earthquakes and tsunamis happen. I just don't see any logical answer here :(

[Stephen T-B]

There is no logical answer.

[IamMoose]

Maybe not. I don't really understand why people BOTHER with petitionary prayer though.

And yet, the bible seems to support it.

[Biff the unclean]

Why assume that miracles are unnatural? I find it far easier to believe that there are flaws with our current knowledge about the world.
Our current knowledge of the world includes the fact that there are con artists and charlatans a plenty. And there are even more gullible dupes to be taken by them.
There is nothing about miracles that is beyond our knowledge, we don't have to wait a thousand years for science to learn about bull-shit, it knows about it already. No one, except the terminally dim-witted, thinks that there is anything the slightest bit unnatural about them.

[Stumpjumper]

I'm inclined to agree on that one Moosie. It was one of the things that drove me away from the Church in my teenage years (that and the fact that my parent's didn't really care anyway). I mean God's only going to cure your illness if enough people pray for you or if you pray to the correct saint? It all seemed pretty silly. I think the most logical answer is that God has set up a universe that runs on natural laws and allows us the freedom to make our own decisions. But there are some passages that support petitionary prayer but I'm inclined to interperet them as calls to faith in the will of God. It really pisses me off when you have preachers saying that the Indian Ocean Tsunami was the will of God, though.

[Vinnie]

Am rereading Stephen King's 'It' right now - excellent book - and one of the characters makes an interesting observation .. this is my paraphrase cos I don't have it in front of me right now:

'You can go to your churches and read about your Jesus walking on water but if I saw a man do that, I wouldn't call it a miracle. I would call it an offence .'

That really struck me because that puts into words something I have felt subconsciously for years but have never really been able to articulate. Walking on water, feeding five thousand with one loaf and a cpl fishes, coming back from the dead .. these things are offences against logic. I would not, if I saw them, fall down and praise God - I would be frightened, and wary, but also .. yeah, offended because they would be things that went against everything that I understand and believe about the world.

More to the point, I sometimes think there's an element of doublethink involved in the ability to read and believe the bible. Christians might believe, on the conscious level, that these things happened but on the subconscious level I wonder if they really expect to ever see such a thing themselves.. if they really believe that such things can really BE.

Am i making any sense? *looks slightly unsure*

If a man claimed to be God's agent and then walked on water, regenerated missing and amputated limbs, fed thousands with a few morsels and so forth, I would take any of his teaching and preaching very seriously. In fact, I might give up everything just to follow and learn more about this man.

I would of course have a ton of qs. FE, why don't you feed all the starving childen in the word? Needless to say, if he is willing to discuss with me an interesting dialogue is definately in the works.

Vinnie

[DaMan121]

Really? that's dead disappointing, I was imagining something complex to do with magnets. Still, when I saw it on TV people were watching him from the front and they seemed impressed. You'd have to be fairly dumb to be convinced he was levitating if he was just rising up on his toes.

Yep - They spliced the people's reactions in with a different scene they filmed later with wires. The original scene did the very old 'levitating' trick that only works at a certain angle. I guess none of them tried to move :rolleyes: Infact all of his tricks are old, and equally dissapointing in their implementation - His endurance stuff though, are definetly not tricks - Still entertaining.

[sharon45]

Jesus was teaching that the legalism that the Pharisees had imposed upon men was not in keeping with the law. the Pharisees had transformed the Sabbath into a burden on men. The Sabbath is not supposed to be a burden, it is supposed to be a day of rest and reflection.Fairly standard attempt. Unless jesus and christians have their very own private version of the Torah that only they are allowed to view, jesus was still only adding his own idea of legalism.

It is interesting that you chose the Sabbath as your example as G-d has always used the Sabbath as the test commandment. Perhaps you are drawing nearer to Him?How can one get closer to something that doesn't exist?

It is all about simply reading the bible for what really is there, not for what one may want to be there.

[sharon45]

The Pharisee's had developed a complex code of conduct that was too complex for the people to comprehend. It was based on thier "interpretations" of the Torah but was not the actual Torah. They (the Pharisee's) conveiniently exempted themselves from most of this code.Again, where is this properly demonstrated past being just unsupported opinions?

Jesus taught that because of this, they had lost the spirt of G-d's Law.And how would jesus truly know this since he didn't even understand the Law let alone think to be able to speak in defense of it?

Jesus' life and teachings are the Way. The resurrection of Jesus was about the failure of the Levitical system.Again unsupported. There was no failure. The Law is still intact and very much alive for those faithful and willing to follow it. To say otherwise is to attempt to make a liar out of god.

As was stated before, jesus is the real offense here.