Meteor Crater in Arizona & YEC

[Aethernaut]

I was watching an interesting show about comets and the development of the Deep Impact probe on the Science Channel this afternoon. After briefly discussing the Shoemaker-Levy comet impacts at Jupiter a little over a decade ago they showed Meteor Crater, AZ (http://www.meteorcrater.com/) and had an impact specialist on site who mentioned that geologically that particular impact happened around 50,000 years ago.

Well, then a thought occured to me. How do YECs reconcile the age of this crater (http://www.meteorcrater.com/eventsfun/mcseq.htm) with a 6000 to 10,000 year old Earth and the Flood? It seems that the cognitive dissonance caused by the conflict of thier theology and this piece of real estate would be enough cause them to abandon the xian creation myth as hard fact. If the impact happened after the Flood one would think that the indigenous people in the area would have somehow recorded it, an explosion that big would be hard to miss.

Has anyone here seen any YEC source that rationalizes this particular impact event?

This question may be more appropriate in S&S but I leaned more toward E/C since creationism includes origins and this would technically be a pre-Beginning event. Mods, please move it if you deem it necessary.

[Naruto]

"The Flood must have washed out the earth, leaving a crater that evolutionists purposely misinterpreted because they don't want to give up their sinful ways!"

Since ex-users aren't covered by the board's protective rules :D

[Coragyps]

I've seen YEC's claim that there was a meteor "storm" as part of that big Flud - they need one to explain not just the Arizona crater but also the 100+ other known craters known on Earth. And as to that "50,000 years" stuff - any self-respecting YEC will tell you that "carbon-14 dating is unreliable, as we don't know what the atmosphere was like in Noah's day."

These folks are nearly immune to evidence.

[Aristophanes]

How do YECs reconcile the age of this crater with a 6000 to 10,000 year old Earth and the Flood? It seems that the cognitive dissonance caused by the conflict of thier theology and this piece of real estate would be enough cause them to abandon the xian creation myth as hard fact. If the impact happened after the Flood one would think that the indigenous people in the area would have somehow recorded it, an explosion that big would be hard to miss.
that's assuming that YEC were using logic, which they are not. If they were going to throw away their mythos, you'd think they'd have done it after the millions upon millions of proofs such as the one you pointed out were shoved in their faces; but no, they're just crazy. But, what are ya gonna do? you can't vocalize to a deaf person. <edit>

ok, maybe that's an over-reaction... but I'm not in the happiest of moods. I didn't mean to take my anger out on the dumbtards. sorry. I feel I have to post this anyway, because I did point out a valid... point, which should not be overlooked. And that is: the absense of logic within the belief of the creation myth.

[Stinger]

Think about this: man was created within a few days of the creation of the earth. Why didn't any people record the incredible Arizona crater impact? Its affect would have been felt worldwide. I believe that there are about 7 equal Arizona crater type impacts around the world. None of these were felt by ancient man? Forget the fact that any of the seven impacts would have had huge environmental impacts for many many years (maybe hundreds).

[reddish]

Think about this: man was created within a few days of the creation of the earth. Why didn't any people record the incredible Arizona crater impact? Its affect would have been felt worldwide. I believe that there are about 7 equal Arizona crater type impacts around the world. None of these were felt by ancient man? Forget the fact that any of the seven impacts would have had huge environmental impacts for many many years (maybe hundreds).
The effect of an impact that would cause a crater like we see in Arizona is relatively modest, and localized. To get into dustcloud, 'nuclear winter' like scenarios you would have to be looking at something much bigger.

Google for "Torino Scale" to get some numbers.

[Heurismus]

I've seen YEC's claim that there was a meteor "storm" as part of that big Flud - they need one to explain not just the Arizona crater but also the 100+ other known craters known on Earth. And as to that "50,000 years" stuff - any self-respecting YEC will tell you that "carbon-14 dating is unreliable, as we don't know what the atmosphere was like in Noah's day."

These folks are nearly immune to evidence.

Hi Coragyps, I like the inference to some kind of 'persistent' problem in radio carbon dating which is perhaps 'inferior' when compared to other more recent dating techniques i.e. with RC14 the nearer to the present the harder it is to be accurate. (ironic)

RC14 for example couldn't give an exact date for the manufacture of the Turin Shroud. 3 possible dates were given as 11th, 12th and 14th centuries. As it turned out the 'averaged' possibility of the age of the shroud approximates to the 13th century. (Good enough for this sloppy thinker)

Now if fundamentalists would just accept that RC14 dating has been augmented by other techniques...

Here are some - http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/dating/

...and RC 14 dating should not be relied on alone, but is a better indicator of age than the belief in an ahistorically cobbled together fairy tale which doesn't even know when Noah lived. (Go on then believers- give me a date and a location 'seeing as it's' all there in the Bible.) I just hope a meteor didn't wipe away the evidence. ;)

[Stinger]

The effect of an impact that would cause a crater like we see in Arizona is relatively modest, and localized. To get into dustcloud, 'nuclear winter' like scenarios you would have to be looking at something much bigger.

Google for "Torino Scale" to get some numbers.

Well, there were many geological events that were smaller than the Arizona impact that were recorded by man. For example, there was a large volcanic eruption that was recorded by most of the islands of the Pacific at around 100 BC. The Etna eruption that wiped out Pompey was recorded by people. If you look at ancient readings, most of it is very boring. They recorded things like marriages, cornation events of kings, who the kings would marry, and etc. And most of them did record local geological events that killed people (like tidal waves, volcanoes, hurricanes, and etc). Why were no large meteor and/or comet impacts stories recorded? The answer is simple, the last major one, with a world wide impact was about 70 million years ago. Way before man was here.

[Hyndis]

There have been recordings of impacts, but most of these impacts are quite small and insignificant.

If a meteorite strikes and kills a cow, or makes a tiny crater in some forest and a traveler comes upon it, it might make the "local news" of the time, but such a small story isn't going to be widely spread.

However, there was an impact in modern times, particularly in Siberia in 1908.

http://www.psi.edu/projects/siberia/siberia.html

That was damn lucky it hit a sparsely populated area. If that had hit a major population center the death toll could have been in the millions.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

Not only the Arizona crater... What about the crater off the Yucatan that hit the earth 65 million years ago that caused massive worldwide effects?

If a meteor storm happened just before the flood, then all impact sites would have eroded with the same massive watery upheaval that supposedly created the stratification of the fossil record. If it happened concurrent with flood then how were the impact craters imprinted in earth that was under miles of water? And if immediately after the flood, then Noah's little odyssey would likely have been blasted by the some 100+ (some very large) meteors needed in order to account for the evidence we have; not to mention what the meteor from the Yucatan would have done to Noah and his family... I can see the old salt now; He's laying drunk in his tent thinking that the worst is over and then --- Wham!

I guess rainbows are promises made only for floods, so... :devil3:

[Hyndis]

If this kind of meteor storm had happened during the floor, the kind of waves all of those impacts would make would destroy any ship, even modern day ones, let alone a barge thats so massive its beyond the structural strength of wood. Getting it to float would have been a miracle on its own, but then having to survive waves many hundreds of feet high?

If the entire world had been covered in water, the effects of the meteorites would have been similar to throwing large stones into a lake at high speed. They tend to make quite large waves that travel a long distance. Then put in a few toy boats that are about the same size as the stones you're throwing. Those boats aren't going to remain floating for very long.

[Gooch's dad]

That idiot Sarfati/Socrates over at Theology Web has been smacked down using this meteor argument, yes. The only argument he had was the one mentioned above--that the 172+ impact craters (http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/CIDiameterSort.html) that are recorded, were ALL made during the global flood. He really had no explanation for how the meteor craters ended up at various depths in the geological column, of course.

The "meteor gambit" is what this argument has been called here on IIDB, and it is one that no YEC can answer. It is solid proof that the Noachian global flood is nothing more than a myth.

[cmotdibbl3r]

How do you know it was a formed by a meteor? Were you *there*?
:banghead:

[Aethernaut]

Thanks all, for your interesting and fun-filled answers! The "meteor gambit" (I was unaware it had a name. Thanks, Gooch's dad!) certainly seems like it would be the ultimate smack-down to YEC considering the only real defense is gawd's mysterious ways.

Not only the Arizona crater... What about the crater off the Yucatan that hit the earth 65 million years ago that caused massive worldwide effects?

I considered this when writing up the OP but the remaining immediate physical evidence even though it's many, many times larger isn't nearly as dramatic as that nearly mile wide hole in AZ from ground level. I mean, we didn't even know the Yucatan crater was there until around 1990...

...<yec_logic>or perhaps the initial post-Flood Yucatan impact was so devastating it wiped out any ancient human witnesses!</yec_logic> :rolleyes: :rolling:

[Weltall]

How do you know it was a formed by a meteor? Were you *there*?
:banghead: Yeah, that's the likely fundy response (go figure). The proper counter is 'Well, were you there when God created Adam?'.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

...<yec_logic>or perhaps the initial post-Flood Yucatan impact was so devastating it wiped out any ancient human witnesses!</yec_logic> :rolleyes: :rolling:
Oh, Oh, Oh!
Let me play YEC!

Ahem....

[YEC MODE]
The impact was made by a much smaller meteor in the muddy earth right after the flood waters cleared away....[/YEC MODE]

Does that sound like what a YEC would say? :huh:

[Hyndis]

But the size of these meteor impacts would mean that any human civilization definitely would notice them.

For instance, that impact in Siberia in 1908 could be seen and heard for many hundreds of miles away. There were also fatalities dozens of miles away, along with massive and catastrophic destruction.

That would be rather hard not to notice. And that was a small impact, too. That object was a fragile one that broke up in the atmosphere before hitting the ground, but it had the effect of a proximity fuse artillery shell.

For impacts that had enough firepower to significantly change the climate or blast craters a few miles in diameter, you're definitely gonna hear or see that one from a very long ways away.

Or were people just that oblivious back in the day? Kind of like how the Egyptians didn't notice that they were a few miles underwater while they were building their pyramids?

[ZikZak]

If this kind of meteor storm had happened during the floor, the kind of waves all of those impacts would make would destroy any ship, even modern day ones, let alone a barge thats so massive its beyond the structural strength of wood. Getting it to float would have been a miracle on its own, but then having to survive waves many hundreds of feet high?

Actually, no. There exist no 100-foot high waves in the open ocean. Meteorite impacts in the oceans would create tsunamis, which are shallow-water waves whose heights in the open ocean are generally no more than a few centimeters. They are essentially undetectable by ship, or even by satellite, which is why they are so surprising and unpredicatable.

[Hyndis]

There's been some studies about seas in stormy weather, such as when hurricane strength winds are around. Sensors rarely survive such weather, but in one case some undersea sensors survived. They could detect the amount of water pressure ontop of them, and so they could record the size of waves on the surface above.

In the most recent hurricane to hit the US, some 100+ foot waves were recorded by these sensors.

With no land to stop wind and a lot less rock to get in the way of moving water, there wouldn't be much stopping all of the ripple effects of all of these meteorites. And such large amounts of rock hitting at such high speeds would cause huge displacements of water and air, thus creating wind and waves.

Then you have the storm that caused all of the rain in the first place. The combination of all of this would be rather rough seas.

And this is ignoring the amount of rainfall required to flood the planet in that short of a time. That level of rainfall isn't rain; its hydralic mining.

[ZikZak]

Okay, perhaps I should have said, 100 foot amplitude waves don't propagate without damping out in the open ocean. I'm fine with hurrcanes producing tall waves, but meteorites won't produce them far from the impacts.

[Wads4]

Well, there were many geological events that were smaller than the Arizona impact that were recorded by man. For example, there was a large volcanic eruption that was recorded by most of the islands of the Pacific at around 100 BC. The Etna eruption that wiped out Pompey was recorded by people. If you look at ancient readings, most of it is very boring. They recorded things like marriages, cornation events of kings, who the kings would marry, and etc. And most of them did record local geological events that killed people (like tidal waves, volcanoes, hurricanes, and etc). Why were no large meteor and/or comet impacts stories recorded? The answer is simple, the last major one, with a world wide impact was about 70 million years ago. Way before man was here.

Excuse my impudence but are you referring to Vesuvius which wiped out Pompeii in 79 AD?

[Wads4]

Yeah, that's the likely fundy response (go figure). The proper counter is 'Well, were you there when God created Adam?'.

--and were you there when Jesus was resurrected?

[Nero's Boot]

--and were you there when Jesus was resurrected?

The Bible is infallible, because it is the word of Gawd, and we know it's the word of Gawd because the Bible says so! So there!

--haHA, I have defeated you, evil evilutionist! NB

[Mech Bliss]

One method of YEC evasion I've seen involves painting all meteorite craters as gigantic sinkholes, even after repeatedly being educated about characteristic features of meteorite craters not found at sinkholes (e.g., shocked quartz, tektites, crater breccias, etc.).

YECists simply obviously don't care about evidence and will even blatantly lie to preserve their YECism. That's probably the ultimate irony coming from people who claim to hold the "moral high ground."

[Hyndis]

YECists simply obviously don't care about evidence and will even blatantly lie to preserve their YECism. That's probably the ultimate irony coming from people who claim to hold the "moral high ground."

And yet their own holy book promotes such wonderful things such as slaying disobedient children... :banghead:

[Valentine Pontifex]

If it was merely Meteor Crater, it would not be hard for the YECs whatsoever. It is the overall pattern that forms when you look at the Earth and other bodies in the Solar System.

Look at any body in the solar system that has been subject to closeup examination. Unless it has geologic activity to erase craters than its surface is simply saturated with crater after crater. Look at the Moon. It has 1/81th the mass of the Earth and hense 1/81th the gravity to attack pieces of rocks towards it. And yet it littered with craters everywhere: Many huge craters and many craters of all sizes. If the Earth took as many hits in the last few thousand years there would be no one left alive. Of course the Earth's surface seems so crater free since erosion and other processes have had time to erase the scars for the most part. Only last few decades have geologists become good at finding the last vestigages of the scars left on Earth by huge impacts in the distant past. Anyone of over a hundred of these impact events would have had global consequences.

[Wads4]

The Bible is infallible, because it is the word of Gawd, and we know it's the word of Gawd because the Bible says so! So there!

--haHA, I have defeated you, evil evilutionist! NB

Mercy, mercy!

[FFT]

Of course the Earth's surface seems so crater free since erosion and other processes have had time to erase the scars for the most part.
Don't forget atmosphere.

[premjan]

There's that big block of ice found on a Martian crater recently.

[Aethernaut]

There's that big block of ice found on a Martian crater recently.

I'm sure there's probably more than one considering the amount of water on Mars. Out of simple curiosity, I'd love to read about it but what exactly does this have to do with the context of the current discussion and 50,000 year old terrestrial meteor impacts in general?

[premjan]

I'm sure there's probably more than one considering the amount of water on Mars. Out of simple curiosity, I'd love to read about it but what exactly does this have to do with the context of the current discussion and 50,000 year old terrestrial meteor impacts in general?
Sorry, the title is about Arizona craters, but the latest page had a discussion of moon craters and other craters in the Solar System, so I just jumped the gun a little.