Are theists brainwashed?

[everettf]

How many people think theists are brainwashed from birth?

For a definition go here.
http://www.answers.com/brainwashing?gwp=11&ver=1.0.7.177&method=3

[Y.B]

Some are, some ain't. People arrive at theism for different reasons. Although the majority of people subscribe to the same religion as their parents, I wouldn't say it's always brainwashing.

[Enlighten Me]

I think "indoctrinated" is a better term, since people are not being "forced" to give up previously held beliefs...

[everettf]

I think "indoctrinated" is a better term, since people are not being "forced" to give up previously held beliefs...

Not the same thing.
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?sm1=SSB0aGluayAiaW5kb2N0cmluYXRlZCIgaXMgYSBiZXR0ZXIgdGVybSwgc2luY2UgcGVvcGxlIGFyZSBub3QgYmVpbmcgImZvcmNlZCIgdG8gZ2l2ZSA=&fw=2&fc=1&ss=-1&es=-1&gwp=11&ver=1.0.7.177&method=1

You choose to be indoctrinated, such as the military or some organizations.

[trendkill]

Sense 1 can't really apply to something that takes place from birth. Sense 2 definitely happened to me, and I suppose it's pretty common in religions.

[Wrenny]

Yes, yes, yes, grrrr yes. It's so wrong, and shouldn't be allowed. Bitter? I'm not bitter.

[Fencesitter]

brainwashing from your link:

"1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation."

brainwashing (science) from your link:

"Indoctrination that forces people to abandon their beliefs in favor of another set of beliefs. Usually associated with military and political interrogation and religious conversion, brainwashing attempts, through prolonged stress, to break down an individual's physical and mental defenses. Brainwashing techniques range from vocal persuasion and threats to punishment, physical deprivation, mind-altering drugs, and severe physical torture."


You're equivocating with the definition here, although in all definitions I think it's a stretch.

In definition 1, it's debatable whether the indoctrination is forcible. That depends on how you define forcible.

As for definition 2, that would mean that we're all brainwashed to some extent, given the amount of advertising most of us see in our lifetimes.

As for the science definition, it seems incongruent with the examples given of brainwashing techniques that this definition was applying to religion which is largely voluntary.

I can imagine cases where there could be some brainwashing that takes place, but that's not the majority of cases, IMO.


Fence

[Kassiana]

It'd have been pretty hard for either 1 or 2 to apply to me, as I grew up in a secular household. You can say I was brainwashed anyway, I guess, if you'd rather believe that than the truth, but I'd love to hear your explanation as to how.

[jonesg]

How many people think theists are brainwashed from birth?

For a definition go here.
http://www.answers.com/brainwashing?gwp=11&ver=1.0.7.177&method=3


My brain needed a good washing.

[seebs]

Some are, some aren't.

Here's the sign from my church:

Who are the builders of, and worshippers at this meeting house? Are we only a sect of the past or do we really still exist today?

We, who have been called Seekers of the Truth, Quakers and Friends, are members of the Religious Society of Friends. Yes, we are a sect, but we do not separate ourselves from the world about us.

We believe God is present in every person and that peace is preferable to war. We gather in silent communal worship to wait on the Spirit of God. Sometimes It moves us in other ways.

We have no formal creed, no ritual, dogma nor liturgy. Instead, to help us follow Divine guidance we pose, both individually and corporately, searching queries; we strive to trust to love, rather than react to fear; we work towards peace because we believe it is the only way; we are led to implement our concerns for the equal rights of all. Many of us have been drawn to this religion - Quakerism - because of its dual commitment to spiritual awareness and social action.

These beliefs are not always easy to hold nor to honor with action, but our search has led us to commit ourselves to them.

Perhaps this approach of Friends could be helpful and meaningful to you. We welcome you to accept our invitation to search with us at this or any other meeting house or place. If you wish, please come join with us for worship. Your children are also welcome either at Meeting for Worship or First Day School.

Any "indoctrination" rooted in study of other views, questioning of our own beliefs and experiences, and absolute rejection of the notion that we must agree on everything, or even on "core doctrines", is pretty far from brainwashing.

[Fencesitter]

Some are, some aren't.

Here's the sign from my church:

There's nothing about Christ in there.

Do you have to be a Christian or believe in God to go there?

ETA: oops, just read it again and saw the part about God, so I deleted that part.


Fence

[seebs]

Actually, we have non-theists at my church.

But no, you don't have to be a Christian, or believe in God. Why should we arbitrarily impose restrictions on people? <-- not kidding, either.

[Fencesitter]

Actually, we have non-theists at my church.

But no, you don't have to be a Christian, or believe in God. Why should we arbitrarily impose restrictions on people? <-- not kidding, either.


Cool, thanks. I might want to check them out sometime, if there's a meeting place in my area.


Fence

[jaded_revenge]

I'd say soem are conditioned from birth. You know, god is good, chruch is good, good assoications are mixed with both god and church at an early age. Its conditioning.

[seebs]

Cool, thanks. I might want to check them out sometime, if there's a meeting place in my area.


Fence

There may well be. www.quaker.org has lots of links, and I think there's a site called "quakerfinder". Most meetings are pretty subtle about advertising, because there's a sense that trying to draw people in can easily become coercive and thus non-good.

[Buffman]

I'd say soem are conditioned from birth. You know, god is good, chruch is good, good assoications are mixed with both god and church at an early age. Its conditioning.

I agree. "Brainwashing" was a word coined by Edward Hunter, a news paper reporter, in his 1957 book about what happened to the various POW's in the Korean War or others under communist control. IMO, that is why it is so important to expose propaganda for what it really is...an insidious, and too often contagious, mental "conditioning" technique. However, brainwashing has come to better define the techniques employed by cultists to recruit the unwary. (Of course, all religions and exclusive belief groups can be defined as broader based cults.)

[TruthPrevails]

Brainwashed? common long time ago but now
restricted to Islam where penalty for apostasy is death.

[Hedshaker]

My brain needed a good washing.

Thanks for coming clean about that :Cheeky:

[everettf]

From the day you were born into a religious family, You had no choice but to believe as they do. Parents telling you god this and god that. Then there were your peers as you grew up . You were probably not allowed to play with others, not of your kind. Ask any of our deconvereted posters on this board. Your only choice was getting older and realizing that this superman called god was a little far fetched. You can throw out all kinds of rationlizations you want but all these gods are in your mind.

I know you firmly believe this entity of sorts exist. No evidence, no proof. You are brainwashed to believe this.

I was brought up in a catholic school my first eight years.
After that I drifted away and started looking at other religions and realized, What a crock.

[southernhybrid]

Using the definitions provided, I don't see much difference between brainwashing and indoctrination. I was subjected to those techniques from about the age of 3 or 4. It wasn't until I was 19, that I was able to undo the damage and think for myself. Of course, not all Xians are subjected to this type of thing, but many if not most that adhere to the more literal interpretations of the Bible probably were, although I think most would deny it. People that have been brainwashed are not aware or willing to admit it.

When you are a young child and you are forced to spend all of your Sundays in church listening to a minister that constantly tells you that you are a doomed sinner who will face eternal torment unless you join the cult and believe like all the other sheep, I don't know how you would rationalize that as anything less than brainwashing or strong indoctrination.

When your own parents reinforce these ideas to you on a daily basis, as they are also victims of the tactics that elicit such beliefs, I don't know how you can call this anything else. Brainwashing of this type allows an indivdidual to accept things that defy what we know about science as well as inborn common sense in exchange for believing they are immortal and have a special god given purpose in life.

Not all conservative Xian converts come by way of this type of indoctrination. My own parents were converts in their twenties, and had far less indoctrination than I did. My mother is a very gullible person who was caught up quickly in the Xian message of salavation. I can't explain why my father came along with her, except that he adores the woman and may have simply come under her spell. ;) She did spend much of her waking hours convincing him that he needed to repent or go to hell so I suppose she herself had become a tool of the indoctrination cult. I just wish it had never happened. It took years to become a normal, happy person after being subjected to this type of sick indoctrination.

I think perhaps that people that need to feel like they are a part of something much larger than themselves are more vulnerable to this type of indoctrination, or if you prefer brainwashing. If you look at some of the methods that evangelists use to gather converts who btw will ultimately support their ministries financially, I think those methods strongly resemble brainwashing. Have you ever watched their tv programs and seen all the glazed over eyes, the emotional appeals, the call to a higher power, the raving and ranting? Nuf said.

Again, so as not to insult the freethinking type of Xians that might be here. I'm not including you guys in this description. I have friends that think for themselves yet embrace parts of the Xian mythology. I think that can be a healthy thing to include in one's life. It's just not for me.

[everettf]

Some are, some aren't.

Here's the sign from my church:

Who are the builders of, and worshippers at this meeting house? Are we only a sect of the past or do we really still exist today?

We, who have been called Seekers of the Truth, Quakers and Friends, are members of the Religious Society of Friends. Yes, we are a sect, but we do not separate ourselves from the world about us.

We believe God is present in every person and that peace is preferable to war. We gather in silent communal worship to wait on the Spirit of God. Sometimes It moves us in other ways.

We have no formal creed, no ritual, dogma nor liturgy. Instead, to help us follow Divine guidance we pose, both individually and corporately, searching queries; we strive to trust to love, rather than react to fear; we work towards peace because we believe it is the only way; we are led to implement our concerns for the equal rights of all. Many of us have been drawn to this religion - Quakerism - because of its dual commitment to spiritual awareness and social action.

These beliefs are not always easy to hold nor to honor with action, but our search has led us to commit ourselves to them.

Perhaps this approach of Friends could be helpful and meaningful to you. We welcome you to accept our invitation to search with us at this or any other meeting house or place. If you wish, please come join with us for worship. Your children are also welcome either at Meeting for Worship or First Day School.

Any "indoctrination" rooted in study of other views, questioning of our own beliefs and experiences, and absolute rejection of the notion that we must agree on everything, or even on "core doctrines", is pretty far from brainwashing.


I don't know much about he Quakers. But it's still relying on the supernatural and the spiritual. Still unproven that it exists. I'm sure, as most of us Atheists find life and mans humanity to man, is very important.

God is just an imaginary friend for grownups.

[seebs]

I think it's pretty well proven that the human class of experiences we call "spiritual" exist. Quaker practice does not depend on whether these experiences are related to some hypothetical non-physical class of entities, or are just words we use to describe emotions, or whatever other theory we want to play with. It works, and we can enjoy speculating about the mechanisms.

[seebs]

From the day you were born into a religious family, You had no choice but to believe as they do. Parents telling you god this and god that.

I can't reconcile this with my own experiences. I was maybe four years old when my mom hit me with the "rock so heavy he can't lift it" puzzle. I didn't particularly believe in religious stuff as a kid.

Then there were your peers as you grew up . You were probably not allowed to play with others, not of your kind.

Not true of anyone I know in real life. I have met people on BBS's who went to such churches, but they are seen as kooky by most mainstream Christians.

[premjan]

Is it even possible to wash your brain while you're using it?

[Nero's Boot]

My brain needed a good washing.

...well, at least he's being honest.

--*sigh* NB

[IamMoose]

I've encountered theists who say that non believers are brain washed :). I think people can be very strongly conditioned by what they're raised to believe -this goes for all sorts of things (politics, prejudices etc) and not just religion. I don't think 'brain washed' is the right term for it though and like I said, I don't think the condition applies just to the religious.

[Kassiana]

From the day you were born into a religious family, You had no choice but to believe as they do.
Nonsense. People who have come from religious families have grown up to be irreligious, and people like me who have come from secular families have become religious believers.

[Aria]

Brainwashed is the correct term for it.

[premjan]

Can a brain (or other organ) withstand being washed (say, in mild saline solution, or distilled water).

[Buffman]

Brainwashed is the correct term for it.

Here are some interesting views/definitions to consider:

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/cultsect/brainwashing.htm

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/brainwashing.html

http://skepdic.com/mindcont.html

[CowboyHeretic]

I just can't seem to get going until I have taken a shower and thoroughly washed my brains in the morning! :D
The problem with this post as with sooooooooooo many others here is that it begins not as a question but as an accusation.
This makes as much sense as saying we "brainwash" our kids to not play in traffic.

[Nero's Boot]

I just can't seem to get going until I have taken a shower and thoroughly washed my brains in the morning! :D
The problem with this post as with sooooooooooo many others here is that it begins not as a question but as an accusation.
This makes as much sense as saying we "brainwash" our kids to not play in traffic.

Don't be stupid on purpose, mm'kay? We have evidence that kids playing in traffic will lead to tragedy.

--we have no evidence that an Invisible Hebrew Giant will strike down non-believers NB

[JGL53]

I think the term you all are looking for is "inculcated", as in "instilled" with religious belief. As one grows up in modern society and becomes independent, one can, through education and experience, throw off, as it were, this inculcation. Or one can stick with the early training. Most apparently never seriously question their childhood inculcation of religion, and believe as adults just like they were taught as children.

This is understandable - humans are social beings with an innate tendency, selected for over the millennia, for adherence to the group or tribal values and beliefs. Up until recent times a person would have no choice, i.e., can you imagine a !Kung Bushman in the Kalahari Desert deciding to be an agnostic or "atheist" about the various !Kung animistic beliefs?

[seebs]

I think it's probably the case that most people grow up thinking what they were taught as kids, but certainly not all.

[Buffman]

How many non-Christian children believe(d) in Santa Claus? Why?

[JGL53]

I think it's probably the case that most people grow up thinking what they were taught as kids, but certainly not all.

Well, we're not talking about morals or loyalty to one's university football team, etc., we're talking about adherence to the religious beliefs one is inculcated with as a child. Most just become clones of their parents - or, perhaps, change just the flavor slightly, like baptist to methodist, church of christ to mormon, lutheran to catholic, etc.

Apparently the god belief, if inculcated in a child, is very hard to seriously question, must less jettison. Personally, I'm surprised that as many have thrown off this idea to date as apparently have.

There's the old saw, attributed to the jesuits I think, that goes "Give me a child until he is six and I will have him for life.". For the most part, that seems to be the way it works. Sad, but true.

[Buffman]

... Personally, I'm surprised that as many have thrown off this idea to date as apparently have.
Perhaps that can be explained by the fact that until 1859 the only accepted explanation for the universe and life was a supernatural one. Thus, I tend to look at the erosion of supernatural beliefs as dramatic considering that they have only been around as a verified alternative for 146 years. Obviously those addicted to supernatural beliefs will do all they can to keep getting their fix and protecting their dealers...even if that turns many of them into moral/ethical hypocrites and creates threats to the welfare and security of anyone who stands in the way of their continued addiction.