Cryogenics

[Juxtatarot]

First of all, I'm an occasional lurker and extremely rare poster, so please forgive me if I am 1) posting a topic that has been discussed at length before or 2) posting in the wrong forum. For what it's worth, I did conduct a few searches already and couldn't come up with anything that covers what I want to discuss.

I suspect I can get better advice on this subject here than anywhere else. The correct assumption on these boards is that when you die, you rot in the ground. Nothing more. This is not the case with other groups of people I encounter.

I’m sure we all agree that life is better than death. Accordingly, eternal life is what we all must strive for, right? But can we achieve it?

Cryonics seems the only potential way. (Everyone knows what this is, right? Freezing the body after death so it one day can be revived.)

The quality of my first life revolves around this very important decision. I believe I have two options: either 1) spend all my money to maximize my happiness and then die of natural causes or 2) save as much money as possible to freeze myself and provide as much money as possible for my resurrection.

Cryogenics is a field in its infancy. I can provide links if necessary, but I hope you will take my word for it that it is unlikely that anyone frozen today will be revived, let alone anyone who has no historical significance (like me in all probability!). However, science progresses rapidly. I am only 34 year old. I live a healthy life. I don’t anticipate “dieing� until I’m in my 80s or 90s. I hope it’s safe to assume the flaws in cryogenics will be fixed in the next several decades.

So, what should I do now to maximize the potential for eternal life? Currently it costs about $80,000 to have just your head frozen and $150,000 for your whole body. As frugal as I normally am, I figure there are some things that you don’t pinch pennies on. This is one of them. I think I’ll go with the whole body.

But $150,000 (in current dollars) isn’t enough. How can I insure my resurrection?

The only way I see this being possible is if I create some sort of reward for my resurrection. Face it, there will be a ton of frozen dead people in 1000+ years. Why should they resurrect me?

Here’s my plan:

1) Save enough money to have my whole body frozen. At this point, http://www.alcor.org/index.html seems to be my best option, but I’m open to suggestions.

2) Create a trust that insures my resurrection. This is the tricky part. If I make it a priority, I can save enough money that a trust can not only pay for my cryogenics but also appreciate in value over time to have an estate of considerable value. This goal, however, can influence major life decisions. For example, should I get married? Should I have children? Certainly, these events can influence the amount I can save.

Assuming that I can save enough, the issue then becomes how can I assure I will be revived? I don’t think family is reliable. We’re talking 1000+ years from now. Besides my trust, I think I’ll have to set up an independent auditor that only GETS PAID by my resurrection. I think the need for this is obvious but I can discuss this if necessary. Does anyone know of a reliable law firm that would agree to such a bizarre request? Has anyone else done something crazy like this? I really am uncertain where to turn.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Personally, I'd hate to live forever. And IMHO, the chances of *anyone* *ever* being revived look close to zero.

Myself, I'd say spend the $150k while you can, and stop holding out for a very low-probability future that like as not will suck giant purple donkey balls even if it does happen.

Enjoy the life you have now.

[Onslaught]

Cryogenics doesn't work, it damages the proteins in our cells, DNA, ect. It's impossible to bring someone back once being frozen. It's the biggest waste of money ever.

[sakrilege]

This topic is more appropriate for Science & Skepticism

sakrilege
SL Moderator

[RainbowSerpent]

Cryogenics doesn't work, it damages the proteins in our cells, DNA, ect. It's impossible to bring someone back once being frozen. It's the biggest waste of money ever.

Cryogenics does work - well for Wettas and Tardigrades at least. Both of these kinds of creatures have solved the freeze-thaw problem and are able to do it without cellular damage. Us people just have to figure out exactly how they manage it. The first trick is to stop the cells from bursting due to expansion of the ice, then you just have to keep the cells alive, given that we have examples in the animal kingdom that can do exactly this, there is some hope for a technological fix for people.

The tardigrade is also capable of dehydrating (it is 95% water by weight) then rehydrating 100 years later and be perfectly healthy.
Go on, do the google.

RainbowSerpent

[Loren Pechtel]

This isn't the first thread on it, it comes up from time to time. It's been a while, though. Even if you found the old threads it's probably better to start a new one.

My take on this:

Freezing the head is enough. I think it will be easier to rebuild the body than to repair the freezing damage.

As for whether it works: To me this comes down to one thing: Whether memory survives the brain going to a zero-power state. Is it like an old core memory that would be fine, or is it like DRAM that would be wiped?

*IF* we remain a technologically advanced race and don't fall into an oppressive government I think future revival is almost certain assuming it's possible at all.

I don't think setting aside money for the purpose is going to be of that much benefit. I don't think that's going to be the deciding factor in getting brought back.

[Jesse]

So, what should I do now to maximize the potential for eternal life? Currently it costs about $80,000 to have just your head frozen and $150,000 for your whole body. As frugal as I normally am, I figure there are some things that you don’t pinch pennies on. This is one of them. I think I’ll go with the whole body. Actually, if this is something you really take seriously, it's probably better to go for the head-only option for now, because the best method for preserving the structure of your brain is "vitrification" (see the section in this wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics) on 'Damage from ice formation and ischemia') which works better with just the head. I suppose you could still ask that the body be preserved separately, I don't know if they allow this option though.

[Demosthenes]

You'd be better off getting a life insurance policy and making whatever cryonics company you pick the benefictary of your policy. It's how it's done most of the time. I did some research some time back when I was curious about cryonics. So far it's the only scientific method or preserving your body for possible resurrection and rebuilding in the future if technology becomes possible.

I don't really understand those people who hem and haw and say that it's impossible. They haven't even looked at the claims being made by cryonics and the progress they're making. Nor do they even know what they're talking about. Basically they say "everybody knows that..." and they pull out non sequitors out of their asses.

I've idly considered about signing up but I don't know. For only $150,000 or so, an insurance for a potentially long long life sounds like a bargain but it's a little disturbing to think of myself being put on the ice for decades and possibly centuries. Would I want to wake up in an alien world? Maybe it'll be a moot point because it could be by the time I'd be coming up to my death date, the medical science will have made breakthroughts in anti-aging and rejuvenation.

Basically it boils down to this, if cryonics doesn't work, you're dead and nothing else will have changed, but if it does work then you get a second chance at life. It's the most logical thing to do. A lot of people say that it'll be a waste of money, how so? To me, it's hardly a waste of money, you'd be spending more than that for a house and what could be a better investment than your life?

In regard to the problem of future societies having the desire to resurrection some people from the past; there are various possible answers. Personally I think, if it's possible, the society will be certainly interested in reviving people as a medical obligation to save lives and also for the simple reason of curiosity.

The company Alcor has made a pledge to bring back all its members on their own, they've even restructured their company and their financial affairs to maximize the chances of surviving into the future.

I'd like to hear why people have such a viscal reaction to cryonics? On one hand, it's a very logical idea and the money for your funeral could end up being funneled towards your second chance for life. Emotionally, it speaks very deep to a human being's desire for life and our mortality.

Ultimately, it comes down to an individual's personal choices and comfort zone. But in all, you have to admit it's a grand experiment such that has never been seen before.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Funny how they get all the benefits now, in their hand... and you get vague mumblings about stuff you'll get in the far future, once you're safely dead.

Sounds vaguely familiar, what IS that mental itch... OH YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

Cryogenics is just another form of afterlife-peddling, in technological clothes.

They've just replaced the canopic jars with liquid nitrogen.

It's slightly less exclusive than the one they sold the pharaohs, but the premises are much the same. "Pay us an utterly insane amount of money, and we will preserve your remains for all eternity - after that, you will live again! Here, pay us even more and we will provide for you in the paradise to come!"

scam scam scam scam scam scam scam....

[uncool]

The one thing about cryogenics: you still seem to live the same amount of time to yourself, unless you assume that in the future the medicine, lifespan, and level of comfort is much better than that of the current.
-uncool-

[Norseman]

The one thing about cryogenics: you still seem to live the same amount of time to yourself, unless you assume that in the future the medicine, lifespan, and level of comfort is much better than that of the current.


Which is extremely likely, given that they have to be able to bring a frozen head back to life.

[Jesse]

Funny how they get all the benefits now, in their hand... and you get vague mumblings about stuff you'll get in the far future, once you're safely dead.

Sounds vaguely familiar, what IS that mental itch... OH YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

Cryogenics is just another form of afterlife-peddling, in technological clothes.

They've just replaced the canopic jars with liquid nitrogen.

It's slightly less exclusive than the one they sold the pharaohs, but the premises are much the same. "Pay us an utterly insane amount of money, and we will preserve your remains for all eternity - after that, you will live again! Here, pay us even more and we will provide for you in the paradise to come!"

scam scam scam scam scam scam scam.... Except that this one is based on betting on scientific progress rather than anything supernatural. Personally, I'll be surprised if mind uploading (http://www.ibiblio.org/jstrout/uploading/MUHomePage.html) isn't possible within the next fifty years, and that's probably the most feasible way to recreate the mind of a person whose brain has been frozen (a lot of cryonics enthusiasts seem to hope to bring the actual physical brain back to life with nanotechnology, but that would require much more fundamental technological breakthroughs).

As for the "scam" issue, regardless of what you think of the likelihood it will work, I think there is good reason to believe most of the people who work for cryonics companies like Alcor are "true believers" themselves rather than scam artists. As this article (http://www.scifidimensions.com/Apr00/real_tech_alcor.htm) says: If you're worried that all this is just a high-tech scam, keep in mind that President Fred Chamberlain's own father is the company's first patient. They even have another patient, frozen in 1967, who was turned over to their care in 1991! Employees of Alcor are required to be members of the patient program, and several even have family members preserved there! This story (http://groups.msn.com/AlanBoylesCosmicLog/julyarchive.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=75&LastModified=4675384985318442364), posted on the blog (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/) of science journalist Alan Boyle (http://www.aaas.org/aboutaaas/awards/sja/2002/boyle.shtml), also offers some evidence of their sincerity: The family of baseball great Ted Williams is still wrangling over the fate of his frozen remains -- keeping the medical controversy over cryonics in the public eye.

The publicity turned the spotlight on some uncomfortable questions for the current head of the Alcor Life Extension Foundation, where Williams' remains are thought to be kept in cryonic suspension. But it also shed light on the hundreds of people who are putting their faith in cryonics, including James Swayze of Battle Ground, Wash. Here is his story, as told in an e-mail:

"You should know my story. If cryonics is a scam to cheat people out of their money, in most cases life insurance benefits, then it's not proven in my case. I have no money and no life insurance to be cheated out of, yet I will be cryonically suspended. Why? How? Because the forward-thinking people involved in cryonics have expressed their will to have me with them on this grand adventure.

"I am a quadriplegic. I am utterly dependent on social security disability, but conversely hindered by all the draconian government, disincentive to self-reliance, laws that go with it. By law I am not allowed to accrue the funds to pay for cryonics. My health is rapidly failing. Along with paralysis, having only a single kidney left from chronic bladder infection, a separate and debilitating bone disease -- and to top it all off, insulin-dependent diabetes -- I am not a good candidate for life insurance that could adequately pay for cryonics suspension.

"Despite my woes, I will live again and no longer be a quadriplegic, thanks to the generosity of many cryonicists. When first learning of my plight on an e-mail news exchange service called Cryonet.org, several cryonicists called for donations to fund my suspension policy. Many did pledge, but it took the selfless act of 'the father of cryonics,' Professor Robert Ettinger, to really get things going. He began 'The Swayze Fund' for me with $13,000 of his own estate.

"It must be said that the kindness of this community is more emphasized because of the fact that before me, that $13,000 was going to his company, Cryonics Institute, and would have benefited all its members This didn't stop other members of CI from donating to my fund.

"Soon two members of the Alcor organization and founding members of The Venturist Society formed the 'Cryonics Assistance Fund.' This fund provides tax-deduction ability. It first will help my fund, then from thereafter will help others who, like me, due to health or disability are unable to work or unable to get life insurance and are likewise stymied by government regulation due to government assistance (and as a result) cannot afford cryonics.

"There is no scam. Surely your readers are smart enough to see this from knowledge of my case. Cryonics enthusiasts are well above the average in intelligence and have thoroughly investigated the science and the trends in medical science before making their decision. Would that the average person cared as much for their own lives and the lives of others. They might be less inclined to send their young to die in useless war."

In follow-up e-mails and phone calls, the 44-year-old Swayze said he was paralyzed in a freak accident when he was 20, and is currently being taken care of at home by family members. No doubt some of you will still think that cryonics is a scam, or that Swayze's faith is misplaced. But I hope this longer-than-usual feedback adds a human factor to the technological debate. You can learn more about Swayze from his Web site and from Changesurfer Radio. As always, feel free to tell me what you think.

[His Noodly Appendage]

"There is no scam. Surely your readers are smart enough to see this from knowledge of my case. Cryonics enthusiasts are well above the average in intelligence and have thoroughly investigated the science and the trends in medical science before making their decision. Would that the average person cared as much for their own lives and the lives of others. They might be less inclined to send their young to die in useless war."

Ooh, BAD fallacy.

Okay, scam was perhaps too strong a word. After all, there's a lot of priests that genuinely believe that their services have genuine benefit, and you can't blame them for that.

I think cryonics-participants are fooling themselves into believing their own wishful thinking and spending a helluva lot of money to do so. Which is just kinda sad and pathetic, imho. And it seems vaguely wrong to encourage such self-deception.

[Demosthenes]

Shrug, it's their money, their lives.

[fast]

I don't have much insightfulness to contribute to the issue, and the more I think about, the more quickly I realize my erroneous assumptions that keep creeping up.

First, I'm thinking, yes, save the head and body, but then again, the body is of no significance in a future world where a body is no more than a host -- a dime a dozen.

Second, I'm thinking, ooh, keep the head, awe, but isn't it just the memory we need stored--after all it's who we really are -- wouldn't it be nice if technological advances somehow allowed us to make an imprint of our memories -- perhaps it could survive into the future.

Third, I realized that it's more than just memory -- it's how I think. It's HOW I think that makes me, me. It's those processes and the order in which things happen that cause my thought patterns to represent or reflect who I AM.

Fourth, so now it's the brain again, so I'm back to saving just the head, and of course since I'm doing that, then why not the body, but I don't won't to be too greedy. Maybe when future generations decide on who will be revived, then dealing with the bodies may seem too much trouble and deal exclusively with the heads.

Fifth, now it's a replica of the brain that needs to survive, but not the brain itself, but oh, can that happen? Can technology go that far anytime soon. Probably not, so we have to deal with the here and now.

All and all, better go with the head. The extra money for the body could be better spent going to supporting any possibilities that you will be revived later.

Last but not least, all I said is likely for not. It just ain't gonna happen. Sorry. Survival sounds all good and all, but I ain't know -- imagine the mentality of people we’d have to deal with.

[FFT]

Read the 8th issue of Transmetropolitan.

Read the rest of it, too, while you're at it. :D

[nancynancy]

Juxtarot, Before you spend a single penny on cryonics, you need to read Ray Kurzweil's new book "The Singularity Is Near: When Humans Transcend Biology." It will be published in a couple of weeks. The link to this book on Amazon.com is below.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0670033847/internetinfidels/

[Matt the Medic]

In my opinion, cryogenics will be rather short lived as within two hundred years, we'll be able to map out brains at an atomic level and then can reconstruct and reshape as needed- brains will be copied to an organic computer if you will.

[Ponzi]

I see no point in signing up for cryogenics until they figure out how to freeze someone in a way that makes reviving even remotely possible. Furthermore, there's the question of whether conciousness would survive in a brain that's been "turned off," as in Loren Pechtel's analogy.

Then there's the faith that it requires in both humanity and circumstances. Do you seriously expect people to continuously tend to pieces of meat in a freezer for however many centuries it will require for the technology to be developed, if it is even developed at all? Will people be able to keep them frozen continuously all of that time?

Even if the technology is developed, will they even remember the existence of the bodies? What incentive will they have to spend the time, money, and effort to bring them back?

Unless things have advanced to the point where both the freezing and the reviving have become at least plausible by the time I'm close to kicking the bucket, I'd rather use the money to spoil my future grandchildren and, after I've died, I'd rather see my organs and body donated to science.

[Loren Pechtel]

In my opinion, cryogenics will be rather short lived as within two hundred years, we'll be able to map out brains at an atomic level and then can reconstruct and reshape as needed- brains will be copied to an organic computer if you will.

I would be surprised if it's even 100 years.

[Loren Pechtel]

I see no point in signing up for cryogenics until they figure out how to freeze someone in a way that makes reviving even remotely possible. Furthermore, there's the question of whether conciousness would survive in a brain that's been "turned off," as in Loren Pechtel's analogy.
Yeah, whether the brain survives is the big question mark to me. *IF* the mind survives the process and a fair number of people are frozen I think it's near certain that revival will eventually be developed unless we go to shit first.

Then there's the faith that it requires in both humanity and circumstances. Do you seriously expect people to continuously tend to pieces of meat in a freezer for however many centuries it will require for the technology to be developed, if it is even developed at all? Will people be able to keep them frozen continuously all of that time?
This is unfortunately a big problem.

Even if the technology is developed, will they even remember the existence of the bodies? What incentive will they have to spend the time, money, and effort to bring them back?
We aren't talking about that long a timeframe.

Unless things have advanced to the point where both the freezing and the reviving have become at least plausible by the time I'm close to kicking the bucket, I'd rather use the money to spoil my future grandchildren and, after I've died, I'd rather see my organs and body donated to science.
I think at the point that revival becomes possible freezing will have become moot. If we can revive someone I think we can cure anything that leaves enough to freeze.

[fast]

we'll be able to map out brains at an atomic level and then can reconstruct and reshape as needed

[Horrid thought]: the judge orders a "reshaping" so that the undesirable attribute that causes my negative compulsions can be 'fixed'. Legislation has finally been passed -- as the societal benefits are overwhelming.

So, under the guise of that loathed term 'benefit', our world is a better place, but I'M NO LONGER ME. Yea, I'm better they say. [/Horrid thought].

[Marching Folly]

Hmmm, it's something I've thought about occasionally. I could possibly see myself signing up for something like that in 50 years or so if there were sufficient scientific progress indicating that it's possible, either by freezing the brain or some other method (uploading?), and if I had the money --- though in 50 years, assuming (a big assumption) the same sort of economic growth we've seen in the past 50 years and with costs going down due to technological advances, that might be less of a problem.

But I'm skeptical that, even if it's possible, whether I would actually be kept frozen for long enough to be revived, and then that they would revive me. What incentive would there be for people in 150 years to do all that? And what about risks from sabatoge, carelessness, natural disasters, wars, etc?

But imagine waking up in 500 years... There would be totally different scientific theories. We would have learned so much. The English language would have evolved. So much would have happened. Imagine opening a historybook (actually, they probably wouldn't use paper books at all any more) and learning all that's happened since you'd been been frozen! That'd be --- wow! :eek: