Does Hell await nonChristians? -- Bible John vs. singletrack1

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

This thread has been set up for a formal debate between Bible John and singletrack1 who will debate the following resolution from a Biblical and theological perspective:

Resolved: "People who disbelieve in the Christian Gospel will face eternal damnation."

Bible John will affirm and singletrack1 will oppose. The debate will have 4 rounds and posts will be submitted concurrently, per the parameters (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=2943714&postcount=47). A special debate format includes variable word limits depending on the round.

A Peanut Gallery (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=146014) is set up in the General Religious Discussions forum for the rest of us to comment on the debate.

May we have a stimulating debate from both participants!

- NS, FD Moderator

[Stumpjumper]

I would like to thank my opponent, Bible John, for taking the time to dialogue about this issue. My opponent will be arguing that those who do not accept the Gospel are doomed to hell for eternity. I will argue that God desires and has a plan for the reconciliation of all creation and that God will offer salvation to all of humanity. I argue this not to undermine the Christian message, but to correct some of the common misinterpretations of the Gospel and illuminate the actual implications of the message that was conveyed by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth whom we call The Christ.


Discourse on Hell

The concept of hell as a place of eternal punishment separate from God’s presence is not to be found in scripture. The English word “hell� is translated from four different Greek and Hebrew words (Hades, Sheol, Tartarus, and Gehenna) that can be found within the Bible and translating each of these words as hell is a misinterpretation of the meaning of the words within the context of scripture. In fact, Hades is translated as “hell� ten times within the New Testament but in 1 Cor 15:55 it is translated as “grave� which shows that translations are inconsistent and dependent upon their literary context. Hades was used to denote a resting place for the dead and not a permanent destination. Indeed, in Revelation Hades gives us its dead:

Revelation 20:13-14
“The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire.�

This “pool of fire� is translated better as “pool of Divine fire� which everyone will experience because they are in the full presence of God. It is how we experience that presence that differs from person to person and it is also very unlikely that our opportunity for growth ends at our physical death. Tartarus is a proper noun and should not have been translated at all but merely transliterated as is done with names. Tartarus is a mythological prison in Hades and in the context of 2 Peter 2:4, it was used as a literary device to show how God’s judgment will come upon the unjust when they experience His presence.

Another word translated as hell is Gehennah and it is a physical valley outside of Jerusalem which literally means “valley of the sons of Hennah� and in this valley a memorial fire was kept burning. During and before the time of Jesus, Gehennah was landfill for refuse, dead animals, and the bodies of the poor. In the New Testament, Gehennah is used as a metaphor to show what happens to those who oppose a God who works actively in our world. It is not a place that God “sends� people to after judgment, but rather was used as an analogy of how the unjust will experience God’s presence at judgment as the “fires of Gehennah�.

Sheol is the Hebrew word which describes the common destination of all mankind after our death. Sheol is a proper noun and as such should not be translated at all but transliterated and understood as the spiritual place of the dead. Everyone goes to Sheol when the die; the just and the unjust together and even in Sheol they will not be away from God’s presence.

Psalm 139
“If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.�

Sheol is generally translated as hell in the KJV; yet, it was written to simply denote the place of the dead and stress God’s omnipresence. There is no physical place as hell that non-Christians are doomed to spend eternity, as this concept is absent from scripture, and was not reflected by the teachings of the Church Fathers.

The etymology of the English word hell even reveals this concept. Hell is derived from “helan� which is a verb, not a noun, and it means to hide or cover. It is how the unjust will experience God’s presence after this life; much different from the popular concept depicted by the layers of hell in Dante’s inferno. This western concept of hell has developed over time and is not supportable by a careful reading of scripture. Everyone will be in God’s presence after death and it is there that we will be judged. That judgment is the experience of God’s presence; yet, there is hope for all. God has revealed that He will reconcile all of creation back to Himself and bring wholeness to humanity. Salvation is a process and one that can be experienced in this life or begun after death. The warnings about judgment from Jesus in the Gospels are real and they should be taken seriously; but, there is no place such as hell for anyone to be doomed to spend all of eternity.

Belief in the Gospel is not required to experience the salvation offered by God. If the Gospel is true, it remains true regardless of whether or not one accepts the truth. The truth is that God has taken it upon Himself to reconcile humanity with its source.

From the Cross, Jesus said: “Father, forgive them they know not what they do.� (Luke 23:34) We are all prodigal children lost in a distant land unaware that all the good we do in this life, we do for God; and all the evil that we unleash, we unleash upon God. In the story of the Prodigal Child, the Father accepted the child with open arms and an open heart. Jesus called out to humanity to follow Him and we will all follow Him home to the waiting Father.

[Bible John]

INTRODUCTION
My name is Bible John and I am a born again fundamentalist Christian. I got saved when I was five and have been seeking the will of the Lord ever since. I am blessed to be a child of God and only wish that by my testimony others would also want to become children of God.

I came to these boards after my 196-day ministry on free.Christians and relevant boards was complete. I will not claim to be an Apologist for this is Jason’s calling, but as a Bible teacher (BA in Church Education Ministries) and more importantly as a child of God; evangelism is a part of my ministry (2 Tim 4:5).

During the days of my ministry on free.christians I never intended nor attempted to debate with atheists, so my experience is these formal debates is a new one. Many frowned at me after my loss (which the Lord allowed) in my previous debate. As I said I will not claim to be an Apologist so forgive my slow ability to pick up. I really have much more experience teaching the bible or debating with theists. I did quite a bit of debating with Christians and cults on free.Christians and relevant groups.

Throughout this debate I will be arguing that Jesus is the only way to salvation. I will start my debate and my primary arguments will come from the four gospels. I think there is enough evidence in the four gospels to prove my point, but if needed I will venture further into the New Testament.

My opponent will be arguing against this view, as he believes that salvation apart from Christ is possible. Has he never read John 14:6? Personally I cannot understand how someone can claim salvation and claim to be a member of the body of Christ (Lutheran to be exact). I do not see in the word where my opponent’s views are taught, but nevertheless he will try to persuade me with the views that Satan has taught him. I can tell you that the view that my opponent argues for is not a doctrine taught in the Lutheran church. I personally know of a Lutheran on the newsgroup alt.christnet.public named Carl Walter. Although we have some minor disagreements Carl’s does not deny the essentials of the faith and is most definitely a child of God. Carl Walter is not a spiritual Terrorist by any means and would never claim salvation apart from Christ.

My hope and prayer that throughout this debate my opponent will turn from his ways and turn to Jesus.

Throughout the debate I will use many different bible translation some of which are below.

NIV-Most Conservative of the Dynamic Free works
NKJV
KJV-Most Conservative Translation of the of the Literal works
NASB-Most accurate Translation from the original texts
ESV
HCSB

But since this debate is not a debate like my last debate that went back to the original languages I do not see a need to overemphasize a particular translation. However I will ask that my opponent stay away from a translation used by the cults (JW’s, Mormons) and stay away from the ultra liberal translations such as the Today’s New International Version or the Message that sadly much of the contemporary evangelical church are embracing. However in the Fundamentalist church such translations are heavily rejected praise the Lord!

I do look forward to this debate and before we start I wish to say a prayer.

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

I pray that not my will be done in this debate but yours. I pray that I will boldly and accurately proclaim and defend your word Lord. I pray that my opponent will by this debate learn more about you and receive salvation. I pray that the onlookers will also consider that there is a transcendent God and by my testimony seek you. Please give me the diligence, please give me the attentiveness, please give me the hunger for the Word, and please help me with my laziness.


In Jesus name

Amen

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

The next set of concurrent statements will make up Round 2.

[Stumpjumper]

Greetings all. In this installment, I plan to show that scripture shows a different story than the popular Christian concept that God will only save those who call on Jesus in this life. God has determined to save all of mankind and the acceptance of this message is not necessary.

“For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially those who believe.� (1 Timothy 4:10 NAB).

Paul makes a distinction between the elect, or “those who believe�, and all men in the above passage; yet, he considers Jesus Christ the savior of all. Salvation is bringing something to wholeness, completeness, or peace and it is a process not an event at a specific time in the future. Paul was making a distinction between all men and those who believe because that process can be begun in this life when we set our hope on the living God and endeavor to bring God’s kingdom to fruition because as Jesus taught the Kingdom of God can be found within each and every one of us.

Covenants of Grace

This debate centers around what scripture says about the salvation and eternal destiny of each one of us. Those alive today, those who were around 500 years ago, and those who may live 500 years from now are all included in the scriptures. The Christian message is a New Covenant or agreement between God and humanity and all the covenants that we find in scripture are initiated by God and upheld and fulfilled by God. To talk about the eternal fate of all people we must look at the history of God’s covenants and how they are fulfilled through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

Let us first look at the Noachic covenant which was between God and all of humanity and this covenant is generally considered a covenant of preservation while the covenant with Abraham is a covenant of salvation and grace. The Noachic is important because from this covenant the Abrahamic covenant was established and brought to fruition through Jesus Christ. The Noachic covenant did not and has not dissolved and it speaks of an obligation that God imposes upon Himself despite, and in fact in the face of, the apostasy or unbelief of man. “Never again will I doom the earth because of man, since the desires of man’s heart are evil from the start, nor will I ever again strike down all living things as I have done.� (Genesis 8:21).

This covenant is important because it is an agreement between God and man which was initiated by God and upheld by God. From this agreement comes the instrumental election of Abraham and God’s plan to bless and bring salvation to all the peoples of the earth. The covenant is real even if the story of Noah is mythical and this is what is most important. A literal and quick reading of Genesis 3 shows man falling from grace, falling from the ideal into a broken world that is completely outside of God’s grace and desperately in need of redemption.

Federal Theology stresses that it was man that broke the initial covenant of works by disobeying God’s command, the “fall� for Eden and from grace, and only when we were fallen did God take it upon Himself to add grace onto creation and only then if we have faith and believe. But, this is not what the creation accounts and Garden of Eden stories are meant to signify. The story about the tree of knowledge is about humanity coming to our sense and realizing that we are in need of forgiveness and should not be complicit in our sin because we are under God’s grace. The Hebrew word for “to know� is yada and it is an all encompassing verb which means to reach for universal knowledge. To know good and evil means not simply to know the difference between right and wrong but actually acknowledges mankind’s tendency to create our own truth and be “like gods� by defining for ourselves what is right and wrong. The message from the Garden of Eden is that we do not judge the truth; the truth judges us. The most overlooked aspect of the story, however, is that God’s grace never left the world it is simply that man does not always recognize that which available to all.

Just after the initial covenant with Noah we find God calling Abraham:

Genesis 12: 2-3
“I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you. All the communities of the earth shall find their blessing in you.�

This passage is important because it highlights the meaning behind God’s election of people. Abraham was elected instrumentally, not exclusively as many Christians view God’s election of people. Abraham was elected by God to be a blessing to others. This covenant found its completion in the resurrection of Jesus Christ; but, Abraham was used instrumentally by God to bring that event about. If we want to stay true to scripture, we must look at God as sovereign and the one who both concluded and initiated these covenants for our benefit.

Let us look at what was meant by “curse those who curse you� in this text because this passage and God’s covenant will make much more sense if we understand what was meant by this passage. Many people view the cursing of those who go against Abraham to mean that God will send those who oppose God’s elect to hell but Abraham had no concept of hell much less the adulterated western concept that is so prevalent in our society. We must view “to curse� as the opposite of “to bless� and what was meant by God blessing Abraham is that God will help, encourage, and support Abraham in his endeavors and would withhold help and resources from those that oppose Abraham. In a way, Abraham had the wind of God at his back while those that opposed Abraham and God’s other elect would have the wind in their face.

Through Abraham, the nation of Israel was established and God’s blessing and grace was share with the rest of the world. It is through this view of election that we can now understand what Paul meant when he said: “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for the Jew first, and then the Greek.� (Romans 1:16) Paul mentioning the Jews first was a reference to Abraham and how God has taken it upon Himself to reconcile humanity through His instrumentally chosen people.

It is through grace that this salvation is available to all and it is revealed that God desires that none should perish and for all to come to repentance and belief. All too often it is assumed that “belief� in the proper doctrine is what is necessary for salvation but through the Noachic covenant it was revealed that God will take it upon Himself to forgive our sins despite our unbelief. The prophet Jeremiah looked forward to the fulfillment of God’s initial covenant with man with this prophecy:

The Book of The Prophet Jeremiah Chapter 31, Verses 31-34
“The days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them out of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the Lord. But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the Lord. All, from the least to the greatest, shall know me, says the Lord, for I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more.�

This new covenant was initiated when Jesus said: “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.� The covenant has been made but it does not nullify God’s previous covenants but builds upon and fulfills them. Abraham was called out of the Noachic covenant; and, it is through Abraham that the new covenant has come to be established with all the nations of the world. It is when this process of salvation is completed in everyone when we understand what was meant by the Pauline letter to the Ephesians when it was written that we should look forward to: “One Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.� (Ephesians 4:6)

To fully understand Paul and the message of Jesus Christ, we must soon look further at the prophetic books such as Isaiah. Fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah, Jesus of Nazareth was Emmanuel, or “God with us�, and because the Word of God became flesh so may all of us who are flesh become heavenly spirits and understand what Paul meant when he said that we will become new men created by God in Christ. In the following passage, Paul is showing that because Christ was born of the flesh He became a life-giving spirit for others or the source of our life. This passage is better understood when we consider that Christ precedes creation and that in fact creation took place in Christ or through the Word.

The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to The Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verses 44-49
"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

The last Adam was realized when God became one of us because God willed to be “with us�; and, because God willed to be with us, we are with God. “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.� (Isaiah 7:14) The reconciler and redeemer of mankind came into the world when Joseph while betrothed to Mary listened to this message:

The Gospel According To St. Matthew, Chapter 1, Verses 16-25.
"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

Salvation for mankind is possible because the Word, through which all creation occurred, became man and became “God with us� according to the prophecies of Isaiah. But, Isaiah also relayed this word of God: “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.� (Isaiah 49:6)

Salvation, through covenants of grace, has been willed to be carried to all the ends of the earth. In the Noachic covenant, God has revealed that covenants are of Grace, not works, and that all of God’s covenants are covenants of Grace. Grace was not added upon creation after the “fall� of Adam when Adam broke a covenant of work by disobeying God’s commands. In this literal reading of Genesis, Christ’s work is a post-hoc rescue mission because of man’s disobedience and because of this view Grace is tacked on top of Creation only after man’s disobedience and breaking of the original covenant with God. This, however, is an inaccurate view of God’s covenants with man and it misses the reality that God takes it upon Himself to bring about his will even despite the unbelief and unfaithfulness of mankind:

Jesus Christ as Mediator and Savior

“This is the content of a particular act of will which has as its basis neither in the essence of God nor in that of man, and which God does not owe either to Himself or to any other being, and least of all man. This is what we call a decree, an opus Dei internun ad extra, and therefore a pact: God’s free election of grace, in which even in his eternity before all time and the foundation of the world, He is no longer alone by Himself, He does not rest content with Himself, He will not restrict Himself to the wealth of His perfections and His own inner life as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In this free act of the election of Grace there is already present, and presumed, and assumed into unity with His own existence as God, the existence of the man whom He intends and loves from the very first and in whom He intends and loves all other men, of the man in whom He wills to bind Himself with all other men and all other men with Himself. In this free act of election of grace the Son of the Father is no longer just the eternal Logos, but as such, as very God from all eternity He is also the very God and very man He will become in time. In the divine act of predestination there pre-exists the Jesus Christ who as the Son of the eternal Father and the child of the Virgin Mary will become and be the Mediator of the covenant between God and man, the One who accomplishes the act of atonement. He in whom the covenant of grace is fulfilled and revealed in history is also its eternal basis.� (The Doctrine of Reconciliation – Church Dogmatics by Karl Barth p. 79).

If Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, then He is the universal Lord and Savior foreordained by God from before the creation of the world. The grace of God has been, and always will be, with and upon humanity. God’s covenants are covenants of grace entered into by God because of His self-emptying love; and, because God’s actions in the world take place under grace, the only thing that is desired of man from God is thanks. The words of the Prophet Jeremiah ring true in the incarnation of Jesus: “I will be your God, and you will be my people.� What unites man with God is that God does not will to be God without us. When God wanted to become what is not God, man came to be. God has chosen not that he will have His history and we ours, but that our histories will be one and the same, and that because they are united, there is nothing that can separate man from his God because each one of us are His people.

What God desires of man is simply thanks and acceptance of the grace and forgiveness that is freely given. We all know, however, that forgiveness costs and it is because of God’s love that forgiveness is freely given. There are many different theories of atonement and, as with most things, there is probably some truth in every view of atonement. Jesus has told us that our sins will be forgiven and we look to the Cross and the suffering of Jesus as the event that was necessary for our atonement, forgiveness, and reconciliation. Yet, the Cross is but one event at one point in time in the history of the human race. But, our sins were committed before the Cross, during the time of Jesus, and every day in the 2000 years since that Friday afternoon. Forgiveness costs and that is the message of the Cross. God has made the agony of forgiving those who will and have betrayed Him in that event. In the Cross, the pain of absorbing the betrayal of man’s sins and passing up on any revenge even at the risk, and inevitability, of being betrayed again, was laid out for all to witness and contemplate the kenotic love of God. At the time when we were least worthy of being forgiven, in the midst of our betrayal, we were told that we were to be forgiven because we know not what we do.

The First Epistle of Peter, Chapter 3, Verses 18-20
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

The sins of the just and the unjust have been forgiven by God and in the above passage Peter has shown that even after death the message of God’s forgiveness will be preached and available to all. We will, of course, all still be judged by God but we have been told that our sins will be forgiven and forgotten even though that very forgiveness costs both us and God. This is the main message of the New Covenant. As testified by John the Baptist, Jesus is the light of the world: “The True light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.� (John 1:9) Every person is claimed by Jesus, simply because, Jesus is the light that lights up every one of us. The whole of revelation is this one, complete, and nearly incomprehensible message that grace is a complete decision on the part of God. Belief makes very little difference because when faced with the complete and undeniable existence and grace of God, unbelief is not an option open to anyone.

Reconciliation as God’s Will

The Gospel According to St. John, Chapter 3, Verses 16-19
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

The above passage appears to support my opponent’s argument that only those who believe in the Gospel in this life will be saved and enter into everlasting life. But, we have to view this passage and all others with God’s previous covenants in mind and within its context. “For God do loved the world� is indeed very telling because God does not have to love the cosmos and He most certainly does not owe the world His love. This love for creation and for every creature is a free act on God’s part and is not contingent upon any action of man. God gave his only begotten Son for the cosmos so that through Him none should perish. Does God really have a Son? The Son should be viewed as God’s Revealer and Mediator. The Son is the One through whom creation came to be, and through whom creation has been mediated and reconciled. “The Son is the One without whom – and we cannot say this of the cosmos – God would not only not be revealed but would not be God, whose existence is a constituent part of the existence of God.� (The Doctrine of Reconciliation p. 86)

So, God loves the world even though this love is not owed to the world. This passage, however, specifically states that ‘he that believeth not is condemned already.� These people that believeth not are not outside of the reach of God’s love are still within the world which is embraced in the grace and love of God. We should consider this passage then as applying to what happens to those who are within this world and believe in and have faith in God as a Reconciler. The message of Jesus Christ was redemption and salvation not condemnation and destruction and it those who recognize this that walk in the light and recognize the inner light that lighteth every person. It is God’s will to save every person within the world and it is those that believe that realize that their Kingdom is not of this world even though it encompasses the created world. Those that believe are called to live not for themselves but for the One who has given them life and live to do God’s will and follow God’s commandments. John 3:16 needs to be recognized in light of the verse “that through Him (the Son) the world might be saved.� Those that believe are part of the body of Christ and as such are called to spread the light to the world. They are called instrumentally by God as part of God’s work as the Reconciler of creation. We should view John’s words about the believers in the same manner that St. Paul viewed God’s call to the believers:

The Second Epistle of Paul The Apostle to The Corinthians, Chapter 5, Verses 11-21
"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

The believers are called not to live for themselves but for Christ who has given them life and provided for their salvation and wholeness. Those that are in Christ are new creatures and live in the light and are ambassadors of God’s work as the Reconciler of creation; they have realized what Paul meant when he said that there is “one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all�. Those that believe are not the exclusively chosen few, but are to be instrumental ambassadors for Christ in the world whom we know that God loves and is within God’s graces despite the apostasy of man. From Paul’s epistle above we can better understand John 3:16 if we understand what Paul meant when he wrote: “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.� (2 Cor. 5:19)

The believers are called to walk in the light by caring for the least of these God’s children. They are called to clothe and feed the poor, care for the sick, and live by Christ’s commandment to love. They are called to walk in the light and love their neighbor and accept the ministry of reconciliation and the message that God is not imputing our trespasses against us and that it is us who create our own heaven and hell and those who walk in the darkness are in “hell� already and simply need to turn towards the light and salvation that is freely offered. There is nothing man can do to earn God’s grace because the entire world is and has always been within a covenant of grace. God does not hold our trespass against us as that is superfluous because we and others are more than willing to do that for God. Christ has called those who live in the light to forgive the trespasses of others not as a work but because that is what God does with those who trespass against Him.

God’s promise is grace and reconciliation and John 3:16’s call to faith and belief should be understood in light of God’s covenants of grace so one last time I will defer to Karl Barth:

“When he denies this light, when he is therefore in the darkness, when he does not know God, he excludes himself from the sphere of this promise. When he is lost as a creature, how can he participate in eternal life? If he breaks the covenant, he is lost as a creature, the promise of the covenant cannot hold good for him. But the divine loving in the form of the sending of the Son is the confirmation of the will of God not to acquiesce in this but to cause man to have eternal life which he has forfeited with his right to exist as a creature. It is His will not merely to rescue, but to save. He not only wills the creature to continue, but to continue in eternal fellowship with Himself. And He does not allow Himself to be foiled even in this far-reaching purpose for man by the opposition of man.� (Barth p.87)

Conclusion

It is God’s will that all will be reconciled and it is through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that this has been revealed and creation has been atoned. Belief in the Gospel is not required because the message of the Gospel covers every one of us whether or not we believe in its truth. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and it is through Jesus that we will see God but the way to Jesus has been made available to everyone. This does not mean that what we do in this life matters not because it most certainly does. We create our own heaven and hell by our actions and their immediate consequences and we should not need to look forward to the punishment by God on those that wrong us because the punishment is immediate and can be seen in this life.

Our actions have consequences and not all will respond to the reconciliation of God in the same manner. We know that God is love and is unchanging. If we respond to God’s presence in an unpleasant manner, it is not because we are being punished by God but it is because of how the actions, choices, and beliefs in this life have affected our inner being and how what we have become responds to that which was the source of our being. We are all covered by the suffering of God incarnate and God suffers with us everyday of our life. We are forgiven and freed of the bondage of sin because when there was sin grace abounded even more. We should live in God’s grace and choose not to sin because it is what we should want to do; not because it is what we have to do to receive God’s grace. The unjust are covered by the atonement of Jesus; but they may still cower from the presence of God not because God is punishing them but because of what they have become from their choices in this world. However, dare we as Christians underestimate the power of God’s love and the desire that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. If it is truly God’s desire that all should be saved, then all will be saved in this world or in the world to come. Jesus said: “My father’s house has many rooms� and because of this our opportunity for growth does not end at our physical death.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Bible John,

Please note that the deadline to post your next statement has passed. You're permitted a grace period, however, extending your deadline to Dec. 26.

Thank you for your consideration,

- NS, FD Moderator

[Bible John]

Note- This post is not late. Its been 14 days since my last one and the deadline is today at Midnight.

Round II

Before I jump right into my main arguments I will say that I have been following what the Atheists have been saying about me in the Peanut gallery. It seems that some of the atheists believe that I have not read my opponents profile because I have hinted that he is not a Christian, but I cannot say for sure if he is saved. I will respond with scripture.

[Mt 7:15] “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. [16] By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

[Ac 20:29] I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. [30] Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. [31] So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

While I am in no way suggesting that my opponent is not a Christian, what I am suggesting is that his doctrine and theology needs to be tested as being done in this debate.

Before I jump into the thrust of my argument I'd like to copy and paste an article from Eastsons Bible Dictionary on Hell. This dictionary may not be available for free on the web, so those of you who are interested in such a copy need to purchase one either at your local Christian bookstore, amazon.com or online at www.laridian.com.

Hell
derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered:
(1) Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask," "demand;" hence insatiableness (Pr 30:15,16). It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times (Ge 37:35; 42:38; 44:29,31; 1Sa 2:6, etc.). The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule.
In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell," the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" (Pr 21:16). It is
(a) the abode of the wicked (Nu 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps 9:17; 31:17, etc.);
(b) of the good (Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.).
Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21,22), with bars (17:16). The dead "go down" to it (Nu 16:30,33; Eze 31:15,16,17).
(2) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1Pe 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Mt 16:18; Rev 1:18), and it is downward (Mt 11:23; Lk 10:15).
The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise (Lk 23:43). They are also said to be in Abraham's bosom (Lk 16:22).
(3) Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Mt 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Mt 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Lk 16:24, etc.). (See HINNOM.)

All throughout the bible Hell is taught as a place of punishment for sinners. While the conception of Hell may not be literally always spelt “Hell� in every passage the concept is all over scripture. If you use a bible concordance do not expect it to tell you all the passages that speak of Hell. Your bible concordance may not do you much good if you think that the bible only speaks of Hell when it’s explicitly named. If you want to research Hell I would suggest that you buy the Naves Topical Bible and look it up there. I own such a copy in electronic form and it has aided me in this debate.

Hell is known to be a place of darkness, a place where people are locked up in gloomy dungeons, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, and a place where their worm does not die and the fire does not go out. But worst of all Hell is a place where people will be eternally separated from God and all the more why humans should not go there. Hell was designed not for man but for the angels that sinned as Peter points out.

My opponent believes that the concept of Hell is not taught in scripture. He tries to argue that eternal separation from God in Hell is not biblical. This view is one taught in the cult of Universalism. In this belief system it appears that scripture is not the authority. This then is the MAJOR problem with the reasoning in this cultic way of reasoning. Scripture cannot be the authority in Universalism since so many that hold these views put their own isegesis into the text. They do not interpret the text within the biblical text and framework, but they interpret the text with their own emotions, feelings and rationale. So many in the church are doing this these days. Such ways of interpreting scripture is commonly found in the cults and Liberal Christianity.

I will start my main arguments with only the four gospels and if necessary take a dive further into the New Testament or the Old Testament. I do not like speaking about hell, but it’s a topic that people need to hear. Many do not want to hear it, and many more preachers do not want to teach about it. Hell is offensive, and ones that teach it certainly may have a harder time persuading people to dump their checkbooks into their ministries.

Jesus states in this passage.

Matt 7:21-23 NIV

[Mt 7:21] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ [23] Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

KJV
[Mt 7:21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The context here in these passages appears to be the judgement, which occurs right before people, will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death. The passage above parallels Rev 20:11ff. From Revelation it says that everyone of all time will stand before God and will be judged. The dead will be judged according to what they had done as written in the books. When the dead are being judged here they will have the opportunity to speak and give a defense of their lives. Sadly many false Christians who think they are saved will give a defense to God. From the passage above perhaps it looks as if the people making the defense are Charismatic who usually go overboard on performing miracles, casting out demons, speaking in tongues and such. This is not to say that only Charismatic’s will be judged and all Charismatics are not saved. No I am not even hinting at this so please do not misunderstand me.

Looking at verse 21 in both the NIV and KJV (2 most used translations in Christendom) Jesus makes it very clear that not everyone will be saved, but only those that do the will of His father, whom is God the father first person in the Holy Trinity. The dead are judged according to what they had done in their lives. Perhaps this means that there will be different degrees of punishment in hell for different people. Perhaps Dante was correct when he wrote the Inferno and Hell will be very similar to that of Dante. I do not know. Or perhaps Hell will be much worse than what Dante could imagine. I cannot say for sure, but what I can say without a doubt is that not everyone will be saved. Many will be cast away from God for all of eternity. When I think of this it ached my heart. I know of many that will spend eternity away from the Lord. One individual named Bob whom thinks he is saved will sadly spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Another named Steve also thinks he is saved, but is on his way to the Lake of Fire. I have tried to evangelize to them, but they want to remain in their ignorance and denial of Jesus Christ.

I know my opponent and other Universalists will argue against this passage with Matt 25:46, which they believe, is a text that teaches Universalism theology. There are many isolated verses taken out of Context, which I’m positive my opponent will use in his round II post. I will address more of them in the next round. But for know let’s just focus on one passage that Universalists like my opponent use.

Matt 25:46 NASB with Strongs numbers.

Mt 25:46 “These3778 will go565 away565 into eternal166 punishment2851, but the righteous1342 into eternal166 life2222.�

Universalists look at the Greek word for the English word “eternal� which is “aionios�. They believe that this Greek word speaks of a non-eternal age. This age can have a finish, and then the unregenerate will be saved. How a Universalist comes to this conclusion is a question I cannot answer, for it certainly is not what the bible teaches in its context. But my opponent may use this passage and explain to me how and why he believes “ainios� does not mean eternal.

The original Greek text does not teach anything besides an eternal punishment. In my opinion I believe that Universalist are doing what we call as Isegisis on Matt 25:46 to make it say what they want it to say. The text purely states that the unregenerate will face eternal punishment as stated in the Greek.

The definition of “aionois� is below.

Strongs 166 from 165. Agelong, eternal-eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

There are dozens of other passages that I'm sure my opponent will bring up in his arguments that I will address in round III.

Jesus says below

[Mk 9:43] If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
[45] And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
[47] And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
[48] where
“‘their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’

The passage above is quoted from the NIV, which removes verses, 44 & 46 so sorry if there is any confusion.

If the Universalist views true, then why would Jesus say that the fire does not go out in hell? Does He teach eternal punishment or does He teach annihilation of the wicked theology? My opponent may or many not believe in the theological view of “annihilationism.� This view is taught by Bible Teacher John Stott and is a part of Seventh day Adventism theology. But if my opponent does hold this view and if it is true that the wicked shall be annihilated, then the scripture above is false. The bible very clearly says in the passage above that the fire will not be put out. If a third grader can understand the passage above and come to a conclusion that people who do not know Christ will spend eternity apart from him why is it so difficult for many grown men (who claim to have the spirit) to believe in a literal hell? The bible is very black and white on a number of concepts and Hell is one of them.




John the Baptist states

[Lk 3:17] His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.�

Looking at the Context of the passage John the Baptist is speaking about Jesus when he comes back the second time. The verse above is an illustration using some of the culture customs of the ANE times, which was very dominant in agriculture. Sorry no computer geeks in those days. If my opponent has taken Biblical Backgrounds or knows anything about the culture of the bible, then he will understand what John is trying to say using the agriculture illustration above. Jesus who has the winnowing fork will separate the grain from the chaff. The grain in this illustration are the believers and the chaff are the unbelievers. These unbelievers will be burned with an unquenchable fire. By definition this means a fire that does not go out, which again supports the argument against annihilation or Universalism. The fire is eternal. The Greek used to translate into unquenchable is “asbestos�. The def for this word from the Strongs is.

762. a!sbestov asbestos; from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and sbesto&v sbestos (quenched, extinguished); unquenched, unquenchable:-unquenchable(3).

My opponent may try to argue that only the NIV translates the Greek word above into the English word unquenchable. This would be false if he did argue it as I have looked at the KJV, NASB and ESV and all use this word unquenchable meaning a fire that’s eternal and cannot be put out. I have no idea what translation he is using and wish he would have made this clearer in his introduction.

Unbelievers will face a fire that is unquenchable. This means in simple English that there will be no annihilation of the wicked, and no Universalism of the wicked. This is not something I enjoy teaching, but its necessary and all the more why Christians need to love their neighbors as themselves and why Christians need to boldly stand for the gospel in their daily lives so that unbelievers may indeed hear and see the gospel to avoid being separated from God for all eternity. But sadly many Christians are ashamed of Christ and do not stand for the truth often. As a result Jesus will be ashamed of them when he returns with his Holy Angels. This may not mean that the Christians that are ashamed of the gospel will face eternal separation, but it does mean that God will be ashamed of them. Once in a presentation I boldly stated to my audience that Jesus would be ashamed of all the church growth experts when he returns with his Holy Angels, because they are ashamed of the hard gospel, and would rather cater to the carnal flesh of man than to the Lord. After I made the statement I got a dirty look from one girl it needed to be said. This girl was never very supportive of my dogmatic bold stance for the gospel, which was part of my hallmark at the college.

Jesus says

[Mt 7:13] “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
[14] But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Many are going down the path towards Hell. But only a few will find life. If my opponent’s Universalist views were taught in scripture, then obviously everyone would be redeemed. Then Jesus would not have said that many are entering through the wide gate and heading down the wide road to destruction. If all are saved and will be saved, then they do not need Jesus. Why then did He come to earth to die for mankind since all are saved and Hell does not exist? My opponent should think about this.

And if his views are correct then he doesn’t need Jesus and neither does anyone who believes in his Universalism. In the views of the Universalist someone may be condemned to Hell, but later will be redeemed. While I would prefer this view, scripture does not seem to support it. I would prefer that all unbelievers would be redeemed, for many loved ones have gone to Hell, and many will be cast into the Lake of Fire the second death. But its not what is taught in the bible.

Luke 16:19-31 KJV
[Lk 16:19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: [20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. [25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. [27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: [28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. [29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. [30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. [31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

In this passage in Luke Jesus speaks of Hell. This is probably the most conclusive of all the passages that speak of hell. Certain people believe that this passage is not literal but a parable. This is not true, as Jesus did not address this as a parable like he does with all other parables. Also the people in this story have names, unlike other parables. This story below is real.

In the story both the righteous and the sinner went to hell. But one went to a place of rest and another a place of torment. The Rich Man was not redeemed and did face separation from God. I am led to believe by reading this passage that unbelievers will go to hell and will face a similar judgement as this rich man. Unbelievers will be tormented by fire sadly for eternity.

Know I will move out of the synoptic gospels and into the rest of the NT. The literal word Hell is only mentioned some 2 times in the rest of the NT according to the NKJV translation. However in the original KJV; Hell is mentioned some 8 times. The NKJV translates many of the KJV’s Hell passages into Hades. Both words basically mean the same however.

[Jas 3:6] The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

The verse above simply means that the tongue can be very damaging and bad use with it can lead to eternal damnation. The tongue can be used to praise others and it can be used to curse. Those that live cursing others, and those that live abusing others with their tongue and don’t repent will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. In a previous passage Jesus mentioned to cut body parts that cause you to sin. So the same can be done with the tongue. We need to cut it off (not literally). For it is better to enter life deaf and mute than to be cast into the Lake of fire with your tongue still entact.

[2Pe 2:4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

This verse seems to communicate that the Hell (or Hades) before the judgement is a different type of Hell than the Hell of the Lake of Fire. I believe that this is taught all in scripture, especially in the Rich Man and Lazarus story. The Rich Man was not in the Lake of Fire, but was in Hades a Hell before the final judgement. My opponent may argue that the judgement mentioned above is not a everlasting and eternal judgement. If he draws such a conclusion from an isolated verse like the one above, then he isn’t taking the whole NT into context. As he knows Jesus spoke more about Hell than anyone. Jesus made it very clear that Hell was eternal, Hell is where their worm does not die and the fire does not go out. Hell is a place full of darkness where there is no light and Hell is where one is separated from God for all of eternity.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

The next set of concurrent statements will make up Round 3.

[Stumpjumper]

Greetings to all the infidels of the internet. This debate centers around whether or not one must be a professing Christian and believe in the Christian Gospel to be reconciled to God. In this debate, we are going by what the Bible has to say about the salvation of each and every one of us and about the concepts of Heaven and Hell. I will only be addressing Bible John’s previous argument in this post as I feel that my main argument makes a systematic statement regarding God’s relation and desire for the completion of creation.

If you want to research Hell I would suggest that you buy the Naves Topical Bible and look it up there. I own such a copy in electronic form and it has aided me in this debate. Hell is known to be a place of darkness, a place where people are locked up in gloomy dungeons, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, and a place where their worm does not die and the fire does not go out. But worst of all Hell is a place where people will be eternally separated from God and all the more why humans should not go there. Hell was designed not for man but for the angels that sinned as Peter points out.

Bible John’s copy and paste only reinforces what I wrote in my opening round albeit in less depth. The English word Hell is derived from helan which is a verb not a noun and it denotes a condition that one places oneself in from their actions and how they react to God in this life or after death. Hell is not a prearranged place of torment with dungeons and varying layers of punishment. This is so utterly ridiculous I do not even quite know how to respond.

Jesus did talk about judgment, the outer darkness, and weeping and gnashing of teeth so perhaps I need to elaborate. First the many passages when Jesus talked about heaven and hell are almost always parables and not meant to be taken literally but metaphorically. I have never stated that judgment or punishment is not mentioned in scripture but that it is not taught as Dante Alighieri described in his Divine Comedy. Translating the Hebrew word Sheol as hell is putting our modern understanding of the afterlife into a text that was not written to denote eternal punishment. Any lengthy discussion about heaven and hell is going to be speculative at best, but since we are focusing on Biblical exegesis, it must also be scripturally supportable.

Looking at verse [Matthew 7:] 21 in both the NIV and KJV (2 most used translations in Christendom) Jesus makes it very clear that not everyone will be saved, but only those that do the will of His father, whom is God the father first person in the Holy Trinity. The dead are judged according to what they had done in their lives. Perhaps this means that there will be different degrees of punishment in hell for different people. Perhaps Dante was correct when he wrote the Inferno and Hell will be very similar to that of Dante. I do not know. Or perhaps Hell will be much worse than what Dante could imagine. I cannot say for sure, but what I can say without a doubt is that not everyone will be saved. Many will be cast away from God for all of eternity. When I think of this it ached my heart. I know of many that will spend eternity away from the Lord. One individual named Bob whom thinks he is saved will sadly spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Another named Steve also thinks he is saved, but is on his way to the Lake of Fire. I have tried to evangelize to them, but they want to remain in their ignorance and denial of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps we should stick with what scripture says about the afterlife and this life, rather than what a thirteenth century poet believed about hell. If, however, you would like to defend this position that you have put forth above: “The dead will be judged according to what they have done in their lives�, then you are advocating salvation by works and therefore belief in the Gospel is not required to attain salvation but simply meritorious works. Are people saved by faith or works in your opinion, Bible John?

Instead of consigning random people like Bob, Steve, and singletrack to eternal hell perhaps we should all follow Paul’s words when he stated:

1 Corinthians, Chapter 4, Verses 1-5
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Paul does not even judge himself and most certainly does not take it upon himself to determine the final dispositions of anyone else. Also, Paul looks forward to the time when every man will have praise in God. Every man, regardless of their belief system, will have praise in God. This is the good news of the Gospel. You do not have to consign others to hell to open up a place in heaven for yourself as God has room and love enough for every man, so says Paul.

But, we must return to the Gospels and the parables of Jesus that do speak of punishment or people departing from God’s presence. First, we must look upon these passages as warnings not predictions. If they are predictions than they are in conflict with other passages in the Bible that have definite universal overtones in regards to salvation. The resolution of this debate was that those who disbelieve the Christian Gospel will be face eternal damnation. I do not have to, nor is it even possible, to prove that universal salvation is the only scripturally supportable position to hold when it comes to salvation. It is most definitely a supportable position to hold; but, I do not have the burden of proof in this debate. If we are saved by grace through faith then all that has to be shown is that there are different ways of coming to faith in God and most Christians believe that God will offer salvation to each and every one of us either during this life or at our final judgment. The Bible makes it very clear that we will all come before God after our death; it is what happens when we encounter His presence that is open for discussion in this debate.

But let us return to what the Bible says about judgment and what Jesus meant when he said that it is not He but His Word that judges men:

The Gospel According to St. John, Chapter 3, Verses 19-21
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

According to this passage, and a less anthropomorphic view of God, it is how man reacts to the light and whether or not we have faith, hope, and love in our hearts that is what determines our eternal destiny. It is not whether or not one believes in high or low Christology, whether or not God is one or three, or whether someone celebrates Hanukkah, Christmas, Ramadan, or Halloween. It is whether or not someone comes into the light out of the darkness. If I am to defend universalism then the question arises: “with their will or without their will�. If I defend it by saying with their will then what happens if there are some of us that still prefer the darkness to the light? To say that they will come to the light whether they will it or not, we have a slight contradiction because coming to the light is an act of surrendering the self to God. This is the message of the incarnation when Jesus Christ humbled himself as our Lord and Savior. His life that was defined by Kenotic and self-emptying love. To enter into eternal life is to live not for yourself but for the One that has given life to each one of us and in doing so it requires an act of self-surrender.

There is no definitive answer when it comes to salvation, however, but I do believe there is a middle ground between God’s will for the salvation of all and the fact that some of us may continue to prefer the darkness over the light. The middle ground can be found in the following parable from Matthew:

The Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter 22, Verses 1-14
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

The King sent out invitations to the preferred guests but many refused to come to the banquet. They seized the King's servants and killed them. The King then invited all to come to the feast good or bad, Jew or Greek, and gay or straight. This time many more accepted the invitation and came to the feast. The King came to greet his guests and he found some that half-heartedly accepted the invitation and did not have on the proper wedding garment. Paul metaphorically refers to following Christ as clothing yourself in Christ: "Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature." (Romans)
Some have accepted the invitation but have not truly believed there was a feast for all and did not properly clothe themselves for the occasion by surrendering themselves to God. They were turned away from the feast for that day because they did not clothe themselves in Christ.

But, in the parable the King kept issuing invitations to all; even those who previously rejected the offer. Many who arrived came properly clothed and were chosen to stay, even while the King continued to call the many. Who is to say the feast has an ending and that the King's generosity does not require him to continually send his servants abroad in search of guests? Even those that once showed up half-heartedly could return in the proper attire. From this parable it could be easily concluded that the invitations from God to enter into the light reach into the darkness and into the very depths of our self-chosen Hell. Hell is not a place that was prepared for humans or the sinful angels of God. It is the condition of remaining in the darkness and shunning the light of God and it is a condition that was not prepared for anyone by God but a state that people may place themselves in by their own choices. May the love of God pull us all up from the depths of Hell.

Universalists look at the Greek word for the English word “eternal� which is “aionios�. They believe that this Greek word speaks of a non-eternal age. This age can have a finish, and then the unregenerate will be saved. How a Universalist comes to this conclusion is a question I cannot answer, for it certainly is not what the bible teaches in its context. But my opponent may use this passage and explain to me how and why he believes “ainios� does not mean eternal. {snip} By definition this means a fire that does not go out, which again supports the argument against annihilation or Universalism. The fire is eternal.

I am unsure whether or not you have read any theological works by someone who promotes universal salvation as a hope for all of creation. I have never read anyone that believes that there is a non-eternal age except for maybe Origen’s view of multiple ages and apokatastasis. Regardless, I’ll let this stand because it is not my position. Salvation is a process, not an immediate destination, and the fire is eternal because it denotes God. God is described frequently in scripture as Divine Fire from as early as Mt. Sinai when it was stated that God descended upon the mountain in fire. The Divine Fire that is referenced in the Bible references God not Hell and hence is eternal. It is our room for growth and how one comes into the light that is open for discussion.

Unbelievers will face a fire that is unquenchable. {snip} Many are going down the path towards Hell. But only a few will find life. If my opponent’s Universalist views were taught in scripture, then obviously everyone would be redeemed.

Here is a slight challenge for you Bible John. These following passages undeniably reference salvation for the entire Cosmos: Colossians 1:19–20; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 28; Romans 5:18, 11:33–36; Philippians 2:10–11. There are others but this is enough for now. If universalism is true then these passages are without error and the passages that allude to judgment and destruction need to be viewed as warnings about how our actions affect our current lives and how what we do in this life affects how we will experience God’s presence after we die. Salvation being a process, however, means that there will still be further growth that we can make and our sins will be purged from us as we step out of the darkness into the light.

However, if many will be lost eternally then the Bible is in error in those above passages among others. So, does the Bible contain errors and will God not succeed in bringing all to salvation or will all eventually be saved?

Is God impotent or is Peter in error about God’s will in the following passage?: “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.� (2 Peter 3:9)

At the very least, Christians are called to walk in the light and withhold their judgment of others. If God is sovereign and desires that all will come to repentance we should leave the judgment about other’s eternal disposition to God and put our faith, hope, and love in Christ Jesus. We are called to follow the moral and spiritual teachings of Jesus and forgive the trespasses of others as Jesus revealed that God will do the same to all of us.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Bible John has requested a brief extension for his next statement, moving his deadline to Jan. 9. I have agreed to grant his request.

- NS, FD Moderator

[Bible John]

Round III

First off I’d like to apologize for being late, but it was unavoidable. My computer has been acting up on me. But all is fixed know as I write this rebut to my opponents main arguments in round II.

I do not have the time nor space to debunk his every point, but I will address what I can.

My opponent leads off his round II argument with this statement.

Greetings all. In this installment, I plan to show that scripture shows a different story than the popular Christian concept that God will only save those who call on Jesus in this life. God has determined to save all of mankind and the acceptance of this message is not necessary.

“For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially those who believe.� (1 Timothy 4:10 NAB).

Paul makes a distinction between the elect, or “those who believe�, and all men in the above passage; yet, he considers Jesus Christ the savior of all. Salvation is bringing something to wholeness, completeness, or peace and it is a process not an event at a specific time in the future. Paul was making a distinction between all men and those who believe because that process can be begun in this life when we set our hope on the living God and endeavor to bring God’s kingdom to fruition because as Jesus taught the Kingdom of God can be found within each and every one of us.


Personally I do not know how my opponent can come to such a conclusion after reading what Jesus said about Hell in the synoptic gospels as mentioned in the last round. But nevertheless I am eager to debunk his views.

First of all my opponent uses 1 Tim 4:10 out of context. This verse has no universalistic theme. The verse is implying that those who believe in Christ will be saved, but those that reject him will not be saved. The verse is never implying that everyone will be saved as my opponent and other Universalist’s believe. The atoning work on the cross was for everyone, but many will not choose the cross and would rather die in their sins than be saved. We believe in the unconditional election meaning that the cross was for everyone, but obviously not everyone will accept it.

In the last round I mentioned Matt 7:13 where Jesus declared that broad is the road that leads to destruction. If Jesus planned on saving everyone, then he never would have made such a statement. But no He knew that only a few of all mankind would be saved.

My opponent next writes

Let us first look at the Noachic covenant which was between God and all of humanity and this covenant is generally considered a covenant of preservation while the covenant with Abraham is a covenant of salvation and grace.

This is taken OUT OF CONTEXT. The entire OT was written long before Christ and it is therefore OUT OF CONTEXT to try to twist the OT to imply a universalistic theme. Obviously the way the people of the OT were saved was long before Christ ever came and long before the age of Grace which we live today.

My opponent writes

Genesis 12: 2-3
“I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you. All the communities of the earth shall find their blessing in you.�

This passage is important because it highlights the meaning behind God’s election of people. Abraham was elected instrumentally, not exclusively as many Christians view God’s election of people. Abraham was elected by God to be a blessing to others. This covenant found its completion in the resurrection of Jesus Christ; but Abraham was used instrumentally by God to bring that event about. If we want to stay true to scripture, we must look at God as sovereign and the one who both concluded and initiated these covenants for our benefit.

Yes but the problem with your argument is again CONTEXT! You cannot imply OT theologies and themes to a NT time! We are living in a NT time. The NT has not yet been completed and fulfilled, but it is coming and Jesus will soon return.

It is through grace that this salvation is available to all and it is revealed that God desires that none should perish and for all to come to repentance and belief. All too often it is assumed that “belief� in the proper doctrine is what is necessary for salvation but through the Noachic covenant it was revealed that God will take it upon Himself to forgive our sins despite our unbelief. The prophet Jeremiah looked forward to the fulfillment of God’s initial covenant with man with this prophecy:

Yes and the entire problem with this type of reasoning is the CONTEXT of the time in which they spoke. The historical context that they spoke was before the savior arrived and died on the cross for the sins of mankind. It is essentially important to hold the essential doctrines of the faith, because without them one would be doomed. But it would appear from your argument that you are trying to teach a doctrine that it is okay to reject Christ and his sacrifice for mankind’s sins. Such a doctrine is a doctrine of devils that is not taught in the bible.

I do not even understand nor follow your logic. Why are you using the OT to lead to a Universalist theology? Salvation in the OT was TOTALLY different than that in the NT.

My opponent next writes in response to Matt 1:16-25

Salvation for mankind is possible because the Word, through which all creation occurred, became man and became “God with us� according to the prophecies of Isaiah. But, Isaiah also relayed this word of God: “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.� (Isaiah 49:6)

Salvation, through covenants of grace, has been willed to be carried to all the ends of the earth. In the Noachic covenant, God has revealed that covenants are of Grace, not works, and that all of God’s covenants are covenants of Grace. Grace was not added upon creation after the “fall� of Adam when Adam broke a covenant of work by disobeying God’s commands. In this literal reading of Genesis, Christ’s work is a post-hoc rescue mission because of man’s disobedience and because of this view Grace is tacked on top of Creation only after man’s disobedience and breaking of the original covenant with God. This, however, is an inaccurate view of God’s covenants with man and it misses the reality that God takes it upon Himself to bring about his will even despite the unbelief and unfaithfulness of mankind:

Yes salvation became possible for mankind because the Word (Jesus Christ) did come to the earth to die for the sins of mankind. But the passage above does not teach any universalism.

If Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, then He is the universal Lord and Savior foreordained by God from before the creation of the world. The grace of God has been, and always will be, with and upon humanity. God’s covenants are covenants of grace entered into by God because of His self-emptying love; and, because God’s actions in the world take place under grace, the only thing that is desired of man from God is thanks. The words of the Prophet Jeremiah ring true in the incarnation of Jesus: “I will be your God, and you will be my people.� What unites man with God is that God does not will to be God without us. When God wanted to become what is not God, man came to be. God has chosen not that he will have His history and we ours, but that our histories will be one and the same, and that because they are united, there is nothing that can separate man from his God because each one of us are His people.

No he is not a universal Lord and savior! Christ came to die for the sins of mankind, but not all will accept him! If God was a universal savior and one would not have to hold to a certain doctrine to be saved, then the entire bible would be a lie. If my opponent would read Romans 3 verses 9-20 he would have learned that there is not a single righteous person that walks the earth. There is not a single person that will make it to heaven outside of the salvation provided by Jesus Christ! My opponent mentioned earlier that he did not believe it to be vitally important to hold to certain doctrines. Well if this were true than Romans 3 and the entire NT would be a lie!

My opponent next writes in response to 1 Pet 3:18-20

The sins of the just and the unjust have been forgiven by God and in the above passage Peter has shown that even after death the message of God’s forgiveness will be preached and available to all.

Yes such a conclusion would be accurate if you do not read it in the Greek.

I believe that Christ made his proclamation over sin to the spirits. Peter does not use the Greek word for evangelism here. The Greek word is kerusso and this word is vastly different than euangelizo. If look at the original Greek you will see that kerusso is different than euangelizo. While the later Greek term does imply evangelism, the former does not. Christ did not go down to Hades or Hell to evangelize to human spirits that rejected him.

Also I do not believe that Christ made his proclamation to humans, but rather to spirits or demons. The Greek word used here is pneuma and this means spirit, while the Greek word for souls would rather be psuchai.

4151. πνευ̑μα pneuma; from 4154; wind, spirit:-breath(3), Spirit(241), spirit(101), spirits(32), spiritual(1), wind(1), winds(1).

5590. ψυχηÌ? psuchÄ“; of unc. or.; breath, the soul:-heart(2), heartily(1), life(36), lives(7), mind(1), minds(1), person(1), persons(3), soul(33), souls(14), suspense*(1), thing(1).

As shown above there is a clear DISTINCTION between soul and spirit. Every human has a soul and when they die the soul travels to heaven or hell

My opponent next writes

We will, of course, all still be judged by God but we have been told that our sins will be forgiven and forgotten even though that very forgiveness costs both us and God. This is the main message of the New Covenant.

Well it would be for believers. But for those that reject the gospel to them there will be no salvation.

Belief makes very little difference because when faced with the complete and undeniable existence and grace of God, unbelief is not an option open to anyone.

Really? What does Romans 3:23 say? Doesn’t it say that all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God? What about the other scripture that I quoted previously that says there is none righteous and none that follows God? If these verses are true, then why would you make a statement that unbelief is not an option for mankind?

My opponent writes

It is God’s will that all will be reconciled, it is through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ that this has been revealed and creation has been atoned.

Chapter and verse please? I have mentioned in my main arguments that Jesus spoke of Hell more than anyone else. He knew more about Hell and knew that unrepentant man is on his way there.

[Rev 20:15] If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

My opponent writes

Belief in the Gospel is not required because the message of the Gospel covers every one of us whether or not we believe in its truth.

So you are saying that one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ? This is the message taught by the false teachers (spiritual terrorists) mentioned in 2 Peter and Jude.

[2Pe 2:1] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Do you deny Jesus Christ? It appears that this be the case with this universalistic theology that you teach.

The bible does teach eternal punishment after someone dies without Christ

[Mt 25:46] “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�
[Mk 9:48] where
“‘their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’

We should live in God’s grace and choose not to sin because it is what we should want to do; not because it is what we have to do to receive God’s grace.

Jesus said in Matt 5:48 to be perfect, just as your heavenly father is perfect.

But he did not imply that one could live life without sin. Certainly one could strive to live a sin free life, but one could never accomplish this with a fallen sinful nature. Even the great apostle Paul struggled with sin.

The unjust are covered by the atonement of Jesus; but they may still cower from the presence of God not because God is punishing them but because of what they have become from their choices in this world.

Chapter and verse please? Where in the bible does it specifically say that the unjust are covered by Christ's sacrifice? No the bible makes it very clear that all have sinned and have fallen short of the Gods glory. But a trust in Christ Jesus leads to eternal life. One cannot be covered by the atonement of Jesus, if one does not accept it!

My opponent writes

However, dare we as Christians underestimate the power of God’s love and the desire that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. If it is truly God’s desire that all should be saved, then all will be saved in this world or in the world to come. Jesus said: “My father’s house has many rooms� and because of this our opportunity for growth does not end at our physical death.

What you are doing here is called an Isegesis. You are reading into the text and coming to conclusions that the text never implied. I have had a really hard time following your logic throughout this round. You do not read things in context, but rip things right out of context to come to your universalistic conclusions.

Here are some verses for you to ponder.

[Ro 6:1] What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? [2] By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
[Ro 6:11] In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

If universalism were true, then explain these verses? Explain why Paul said that we needed to die to our flesh and no longer sin.

[Ro 6:14] For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Again those that are UNDER GRACE are dead to sin.

[Col 2:13] When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

[Jn 14:6] Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Again these verses are suggesting that those who reject Christ are not saved. But those that accept him are. The millions that have died that have worshipped someone or something other than Christ were not saved and will not be saved. God will forgive your sins when you accept his gift of salvation.

I am wondering if you have had a salvation experience. For if you truly hold to these false teachings, then you cannot be, for you never died to your sins and are not washed by the blood of the Lamb.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

The next set of concurrent statements will make up the Final Round.

[Stumpjumper]

I do not have the time nor space to debunk his every point, but I will address what I can.
First of all my opponent uses 1 Tim 4:10 out of context. This verse has no universalistic theme. The verse is implying that those who believe in Christ will be saved, but those that reject him will not be saved.

It would be more educational if you actually show why certain passages do not relay the message that I have shown them to relay than simply and boldly stating “I am willing to debunk his views� and them claiming those views are wrong without actually explaining why this is the case.

Regardless, this is 1 Timothy 4: 9-10: “For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.�

If Jesus Christ is the savior of all men then does that not mean that salvation is open to all men? If I was called someone’s savior that title generally carries along with it an act of salvation.

In the last round I mentioned Matt 7:13 where Jesus declared that broad is the road that leads to destruction. If Jesus planned on saving everyone, then he never would have made such a statement. But no He knew that only a few of all mankind would be saved.

So you know exactly why Jesus made certain statements? Considering that Jesus taught in parables and His closest followers had to be constantly corrected on their understanding of his statements while he was speaking in their presence, this is quite a gift of understanding that has been bestowed upon you Bible John.

Jesus did say “Many are called and few are chosen� and “broad is the way that leads to destruction� but these statements need not only apply to our eternal destiny. Many times in this life, we resist the call from God and follow wayward paths that lead to temporal destruction in our lives and in the lives of others. Jesus’ message had immediate calls for social action and Christians are commanded to counteract the evils of the world with their helping hands and are called to stand up for and feed the poor, the oppressed, the mourning, those who are spiritually hungry, and those whose current lives have already been destroyed. Christians are called to care for and to pray for all men and leave the judgment to God.

This is taken OUT OF CONTEXT. The entire OT was written long before Christ and it is therefore OUT OF CONTEXT to try to twist the OT to imply a universalistic theme. Obviously the way the people of the OT were saved was long before Christ ever came and long before the age of Grace which we live today. Yes but the problem with your argument is again CONTEXT! You cannot imply OT theologies and themes to a NT time!

Capitalizing words, using bold, and claiming CONTEXT with strong inflection does not an argument make.

Regardless, does your Bible start at The Gospel of Matthew? If so, I would suggest you purchase a new Bible and read the prophets, understand that Jesus was the Messiah that those prophets (found in the OT) were talking about, understand that God does not break His covenants with men but that they build upon each other, and that a Covenant of Grace was established in Genesis and completed in Christ. Jesus is the New Covenant but that does not mean that Grace was not in the world before Christ.

But it would appear from your argument that you are trying to teach a doctrine that it is okay to reject Christ and his sacrifice for mankind’s sins. Such a doctrine is a doctrine of devils that is not taught in the bible.

I almost forgot the other debate technique called cast your opponent as the Devil. I am having a hard time taking you seriously John and if you feel very strongly about your position you should actually try to address some of my points instead of using empty rhetoric. Regardless, my position is not that it is okay to reject Christ but that God transcends our petty ideas of religion and dogmatic belief and that although Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light that there might be more ways to God’s door than what Church one attends. What you are doing is turning Christianity into a placebo that all one has to do is say “yes, I agree with you� and they are saved. God is much bigger than these words that we use to describe Him.

I do not even understand nor follow your logic. Why are you using the OT to lead to a Universalist theology?

I have absolutely no idea why you cannot grasp the concept that the New Testament did not arise out of a vacuum nor did the KJV of the Bible fall out of the sky one day. Paul referenced Hebrew scripture 89 times in his epistles, the Gospel of John’s entire theme is Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, and all the Gospels reference the Prophets (one of them is named Isaiah).

Maybe I should quote some Isaiah for you so you know where to look in the Bible to find his writings:

The Book of The Prophet Isaiah, Chapter 45, Verses 22-23
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Do you see a familiar theme? Every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear is found in the New Testament as well and these are themes that can be found throughout the Bible. You need to let the whole Bible speak for itself as you cannot focus on just a few passages in the synoptics that are written in parables to make your case. You need to have a foundation in scripture for your systematic theology and scripture does not simply apply to the parts of the Gospel that mention H, E, double hockey sticks.

No he is not a universal Lord and savior! Christ came to die for the sins of mankind, but not all will accept him! If God was a universal savior and one would not have to hold to a certain doctrine to be saved, then the entire bible would be a lie.

No, Bible John, the Bible would not be a lie. Your interpretation of the Bible would be in error but luckily it appears that your interpretation is based upon a few select passages starting towards the end of the Bible.

Jesus Christ is the universal Lord unless you think that there is someone else that holds that title as well in which case you would be a polytheist. Would that be Odin or Zeus that is the Lord of the other part of the universe? In regards to being the savior of all, well you can take that up with Paul: “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.� (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

There is not a single person that will make it to heaven outside of the salvation provided by Jesus Christ! My opponent mentioned earlier that he did not believe it to be vitally important to hold to certain doctrines. Well if this were true than Romans 3 and the entire NT would be a lie!

Dramatics and inflection aside, it would be your interpretation that would be wrong not Romans 3 or the “entire NT�. What part of Romans 3 are you referencing? How about we start here:

Romans, Chapter 3, Verses 29-31
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

First, God is universal as he is the God of the Jews and the Gentiles so Odin will have to take a hike ;) But, Paul is establishing the fact that we are justified by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. Now this passage does seem to agree with your premise but we should not stop at Romans 3 and we cannot forget Paul’s other writings either or the systematic message of salvation through Covenants of Grace that are established from the very beginning of scripture.

Let us then try to understand what Paul was writing in Romans 3 and move on to Romans 5:18 where Paul then writes: “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.�

Context includes the context of the entire passage or Epistle as well as how that passage fits in with one’s overall systematic theology and way of approaching scripture. Paul, was establishing the Christian message that Jesus Christ became sin for man despite that fact that we are, were, and will be sinners. Despite the apostasy of man, despite our ungratefulness and unwillingness to accept this message of salvation, and despite whether or not we share our love with someone of the same sex, Jesus Christ became sin for us. For each individual person whether they be Jew or Greek and the only thing that we can do to receive this salvation is open up our hearts to the message and step into the light out of the darkness. Even making a conscious decision to start attending Bible John’s Sunday school class is a work as it is an act on our part and we are saved by the grace of God; not by works. We are loved despite the fact that we are sinners and we are told that this sin is forgiven and we are all welcomed into the light.

The grace is there already and all one needs to do is open their eyes to the light and receive it with thanksgiving. The grace is the light of God and we cannot stay in the darkness because that self is simply an illusion. It is this light that reaches out to those who are hurting even though they may not seek help. It is the light that seeks humanity in the shadows where we are lost. Our lost self is as Thomas Merton described: “This is the man I want myself to be but who cannot exist, because God does not know anything about him. And to be unknown to God is altogether too much privacy. My false and private self is the one who wants to exist outside the reach of God’s will and God’s love –outside of reality and outside of life. And such a self cannot help but be an illusion.�

Also I do not believe that Christ made his proclamation to humans, but rather to spirits or demons..

The Catholic Church has made it very clear that there is no salvation for demons so I think you might want to ask yourself why Jesus would preach to Satan and his legions. Note, there is even no doctrine that a Christian must believe that Satan even exists but if he does there is no reconciliation for the man in red tights so you might want to rethink that exegesis.

What does Romans 3:23 say? Doesn’t it say that all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God? What about the other scripture that I quoted previously that says there is none righteous and none that follows God? If these verses are true, then why would you make a statement that unbelief is not an option for mankind?

I agree that none are righteous and I have *never* advocated salvation by works but if none are righteous and all sin then why do you make a specific exception for one dogmatic belief system? We are saved by the grace of God and God’s grace will compel us to open our eyes to the light and I dare not underestimate the power of God’s love and never-ending grace. Why do you put a limit on God’s grace and place anyone with a different belief system outside the reach of God’s love?

So you are saying that one does not need to believe in Jesus Christ? This is the message taught by the false teachers (spiritual terrorists) mentioned in 2 Peter and Jude.

I must say that you have an interesting debate style. Because you disagree with my theology, which is most certainly based upon a larger percentage of the Bible then your sermon about Hellfire and damnation, I do not consider you a spiritual terrorist. I would keep in mind the calls for non-judgment by Jesus and Paul and perhaps you should attempt to actually read what your opponent writes about salvation.

I am merely saying that how one comes to faith, hope, and love in Jesus Christ the living God cannot be limited by some exhaustive list that you or anyone else would be able to provide. You might have a rather limited to do list for God’s children but I do not believe that God does and I am sure that God cannot be constrained by our petty categories of the saved and the unsaved. Instead of consigning people to hell, Christians are called to pray for all men and put their faith in God.

Do you deny Jesus Christ? It appears that this be the case with this universalistic theology that you teach.

You seriously need to consider what it means to be a Christian and follow those commands that were laid out by Jesus. I would start with the Sermon on The Mount (it is in Matthew).

What you are doing here is called an Isegesis. You are reading into the text and coming to conclusions that the text never implied. I have had a really hard time following your logic throughout this round. You do not read things in context, but rip things right out of context to come to your universalistic conclusions.

Lack of comprehension is not an effective debate strategy. This is your debate proposal and you have the burden of proof and despite your inflection and claims about context, you are the only one who is practicing Isegesis. The shear fact that you could not understand why I was referencing the Hebrew Scriptures should tell you that much. You have already decided what is required for salvation without laying out a systematic framework for that belief and then you are applying your view to scripture. That is the definition of Isegesis.

You might have a hard time following my logic because I have provided a systematic foundation for the message of the New Testament and the message of salvation that was completed in Jesus Christ. Jesus was a New Covenant which requires, as a foundational basis, an already established covenant which is found, I know this might come as a surprise, in the Hebrew Scriptures.

If universalism were true, then explain these verses? Explain why Paul said that we needed to die to our flesh and no longer sin.

Perhaps you missed 2 Corinthians Chapter 5 which was written in the post that you are now replying to? I will repost here for your edification:

2 Corinthians, Chapter 5, Verses 17 -21
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

We need to die to our flesh because our eternal life lies in our new creation in Christ. Christians are the first-fruits and are ambassadors for Christ who live not for themselves but for the one who sent them to teach about God’s unique act of reconciliation between Himself and the world. We cannot have eternal life of ourselves but only in the One who has created, redeemed, and reconciled us to Himself.

I am wondering if you have had a salvation experience. For if you truly hold to these false teachings, then you cannot be, for you never died to your sins and are not washed by the blood of the Lamb.

I have no doubt that this is your opinion. But considering the fact that you have not provided *any* argument to support your position and you have shown a complete lack of understanding of my position, your charge of “false teachings� carries very little weight. Considering that you have taken it upon yourself to judge the final dispositions of non-Christians and have now found it appropriate to judge the faith and experiences of professing Christians, I would urge you to open up your Bible a little further and ponder Philippians 2 and learn to live in Peace, Love, Unity, and Respect.

[Bible John]

Greetings all as this will be the final round in this debate between myself and SingleTrack. In this last round I will be finishing with my concluding thoughts on SingleTrack's last round.

Single Track says
Bible John’s copy and paste only reinforces what I wrote in my opening albeit in less depth. The English word Hell is derived from helan which is a verb not a noun and it denotes a condition that one places oneself in from their actions and how they react to God in this life or after death. Hell is not a prearranged place of torment with dungeons and varying layers of punishment. This is so utterly ridiculous I do not quite know how to respond.

Perhaps using the scripturess as the authority would have been wise for my opponent before concluding the above.

The bible says

[2Pe 2:4] For if G1487 God G2316 did not spare G5339 angels G32 when they sinned G264, but cast G5020 them into hell G5020 and committed G3860 them to pits G4618 of darkness G2217, reserved G5083 for judgment G2920;

The NASB uses the word "pits" while the NIV uses the word dungeons. Both basically mean the same. The Greek word being used here is siros.

4618a. siro&v siros; a prim. word; a pit (for grain storage):—pits(1).

Regarding my opponent’s claim that there is no place of torment, I have to wonder where he reads this in scripture. Has he not read the scriptures? Have I not shown him in many passages that say that Hell is a place of torment? The bible does not need to defend itself, its SingleTrack whom needs to read it.

My opponent next claims that when Jesus talked about heaven or hell they are not to be taken literally but metaphorically. He next claims that hell is not taught as Dante did in his Divine comedy. Well I would have to agree, but I do not know for sure. Perhaps Hell is just like what Dante taught of it, or perhaps it is worse. But no matter it will be a place of eternal separation from God where there is no light. I hope that my opponent never ventures there to find out if Dante was correct. I hope that no one ventures there. I have many loved ones that sadly will venture there. Hell is a place where God does not want people to go to.

[2Pe 3:9] The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

My opponent asks me this question

Are people saved by faith or works in your opinion, Bible John?

[Ep 2:8] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [9] not by works, so that no one can boast.

I believe the above scripture answers my opponent’s question. When I said that the dead shall be judged according to what they have done I was simply saying what scripture teaches (Rev 20:12ff). The bible doesn’t teach that salvation in earned by works, but it does teach that a degree of reward or punishment in heaven or hell is based on ones works.

In heaven

1 Cor 3:13-15

[1Co 3:13] his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. [14] If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. [15] If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.


In Hell

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Rev. 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

My opponent writes

Instead of consigning random people like Bob, Steve, and singletrack to eternal hell perhaps we should all follow Paul’s words when he stated:

Well it is my prayer that these three receive salvation. If you knew what they teach you would understand why they are doomed to eternity in the Lake of Fire unless they repent. Bob and Steve for example deny the Trinity and in doing so deny Jesus Christ’s salvation. Bob has also told me that Jesus was not God just a man, another MAJOR heresy. The last person on the list whom you know the best, also teaches hell fire doctrines.

My opponent writes

Paul does not even judge himself and most certainly does not take it upon himself to determine the final dispositions of anyone else. Also, Paul looks forward to the time when every man will have praise in God. Every man, regardless of their belief system, will have praise in God. This is the good news of the Gospel. You do not have to consign others to hell to open up a place in heaven for yourself as God has room and love enough for every man, so says Paul.


So in other words you interpret the passage to say something like "do not judge me, for both of us are right and there are not moral absolute truths." No this isn’t what Paul is teaching in the passage above. The passage above is referring to not judging someone self righteously. Certainly it would be wrong to judge someone self righteously, but it would not be wrong to point out their false doctrine. And Paul did do this for 3 years warning the people night and day with tears about false doctrine and teachers.


Acts 20:29-31

[Ac 20:29] I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. [30] Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. [31] So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

My opponent teaches that everyman regardless of their belief system will have praise in God. This is not taught in the bible, for my opponent is reading into the bible.

My opponent writes

If we are saved by grace through faith then all that has to be shown is that there are different ways of coming to faith in God and most Christians believe that God will offer salvation to each and every one of us either during this life or at our final judgment.

No "most Christians" do not hold a Universalism theology. Most believe in a heaven and a hell, and most believe that those that reject Christ will not go to heaven for it is biblical and what Jesus taught.

[Jn 14:6] Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I am unsure whether or not you have read any theological works by someone who promotes universal salvation as a hope for all of creation. I have never read anyone that believes that there is a non-eternal age except for maybe Origen’s view of multiple ages and apokatastasis. Regardless, I’ll let this stand because it is not my position. Salvation is a process, not an immediate destination, and the fire is eternal because it denotes God. God is described frequently in scripture as Divine Fire from as early as Mt. Sinai when it was stated that God descended upon the mountain in fire. The Divine Fire that is referenced in the Bible references God not Hell and hence is eternal. It is our room for growth and how one comes into the light that is open for discussion.

Well I have read what Carm had to say on Univeralism and am reading what you are trying to teach here and am seeing the similarities. I wonder how you can come to a conclusion that Hell is not eternal by studying the Divine fire? Yes what you say about coming into the light does bear truth. It is not our place to know how one comes into the light, for as long as they do that’s all that matters.

Here is a slight challenge for you Bible John. These following passages undeniably reference salvation for the entire Cosmos: Colossians 1:19–20; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 28; Romans 5:18, 11:33–36; Philippians 2:10–11. There are others but this is enough for now. If Universalism is true then these passages are without error and the passages that allude to judgment and destruction need to be viewed as warnings about how our actions affect our current lives and how what we do in this life affects how we will experience God’s presence after we die. Salvation being a process, however, means that there will still be further growth that we can make and our sins will be purged from us as we step out of the darkness into the light.

I agree with you that salvation is a process. The technical term for this is called Progressive sanctification (http://www.abideinchrist.com/keys/sanctification-progressive.html).

But to say that there will be time after death for salvation is flat out heresy. Nowhere is this taught in the scriptures.

However, if many will be lost eternally then the Bible is in error in those above passages among others. So, does the Bible contain errors and will God not succeed in bringing all to salvation or will all eventually be saved?

Perhaps the error is your isegesis of the text and reading into it to say what you want it to say. No few will be saved and many are on the path to destruction.

NASB
[Mt 7:13] "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Is God impotent or is Peter in error about God’s will in the following passage?: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Yes God does not want many to perish but sadly many will be perishing and being separated from God for all eternity. The verse does not say that it is Gods decree that everyone will be saved. I think you are confusing will with decree. When God decrees something he orders it and it is done. But Gods will cannot be his decree if God were a sovereign God. In Gods providence He has given each of us a free will to do as we please. And sadly many are choosing themselves over God and will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire as a result.

[Rev 20:15] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At the very least, Christians are called to walk in the light and withhold their judgment of others.

You are confused as to what judgement is. I think you are saying that if one judges your doctrine, then they are "judging" you personally. No this is not what scripture teaches, for there is no room for pluralism in Gods will. There is no room for Post-Modernism. But there is room for dogmatism towards the truth and hatred towards error.

[Ro 12:9] Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

If God is sovereign and desires that all will come to repentance we should leave the judgment about other’s eternal disposition to God and put our faith, hope, and love in Christ Jesus. We are called to follow the moral and spiritual teachings of Jesus and forgive the trespasses of others as Jesus revealed that God will do the same to all of us.

Yes but we also most boldly teach sound doctrine (2 Tim 4:2-4). I believe that you have demonstrated in this debate a fulfillment of prophecy.

[2Ti 4:3] For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. [4] They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

I believe you in this debate have demonstrated that you have turned your ears away from the truth and have turned aside to stories and false doctrines that you have made up. You reject Hell, because it is offensive to you and so you have made up false doctrines to counter the biblical doctrine you find so offensive.

I am praying for you NighShade singletrack1. I once was lost and God found me, and I pray that He finds you. He is searching for you and wants you to be His, will you not accept him?

Nightshade singletrack1 I say this in love but want to warn you of the death that will follow you if you continue on your ways and belief system.

God bless you and it was a pleasure debating with you. Maybe we can do it again sometime.


John

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

The formal debate is now complete. We would like to thank Bible John and singletrack1 for their participation. Discussion can be continued in the Peanut Gallery.

- NS, FD Moderator