Is it Jehovah that we don't believe in, or God?

[SLD]

I was posed this question by a Unitarian Deist friend of mine. It's an interesting point. We live (in the U.S.) in a predominantly Christian country with Christian symbolism all around us. Are friends, neighbors and co-workers are Christians and whenever there is talk of God it is generally assumed that we are talking about the Judeo-Christian version of God - whether the Old Testament or New. Indeed when I imagine God, I have hard time not thinking of the Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. That is so ingrained into our subconscious. It is also clearly a caricature. If there is a God, it is most certainly not some large human entity floating on a cloud. (I've been up to the Clouds and never saw a thing!)

Now modern religion does its best to dispel this notion of God. God is the creator of the Universe, the laws of Physics, etc. His existence is outside this universe, etc. Blah, Blah, Blah. But when I hear that stuff, I still imagine the white bearded dude sitting outside the Universe looking down at his creation - just a different cosmology from Michelangelo's time. Even without such talk though we still anthropomorphize him. He's still a male figure, he's still got a "mind." He creates the Universe, or at least the laws of physics that allows the Universe to exist.

I find it rather easy to disbelieve in this God. He's way too anthropomorphic. And I must confess some anger at this version of God. I see a Jesus fish on a car and I want go up to them and say: You guys are so full of shit! I see people going to church and I just shake my head in amazement at the lack of reason. I get sick (especially at this time of year) of the religious banter and public proselytizing. I don't just disbelieve in Jehovah - I don't think he makes for a very good God, and I think his followers are in some cases, dangerous (not all, no disrespect intended for liberal christians). So my friend has a point, this is the version of God I don't believe in.

But what else can God be? Perhaps we could apply the Gaiae concept to the Universe and say that is God (pantheism?). But that's little more than redefining the Universe as God. Ok, but it doesn't do anything for me.

God as some undefinable entity, but at least the creator of the laws of physics? OK. I guess that's allright. I wish more people were Deist of that nature. I suppose I could believe that version of God, except then what is that I'm believing in? If it is undefinable, then you really can't believe in it can you?

I guess I need to set up a lunch meeting with my Unitarian friend and explore this concept in more detail. In the meantime, I'll listen to your thoughts.

SLD

[Mountain Man]

I don't believe in any version of any god.

[SLD]

I don't believe in any version of any god.

Thanks for the quick reply, MM!

But when you imagine God what pops in your head? Is it the various Far Side Cartoons such as "God Makes a Snake" "God on Jeopardy", etc. I love those! But again we anthropomorphize God, and perhaps we cannot help but do so. We've evolved to recognize faces and humans in a variety shapes and figures (Christians always see Mary, and others see whatever religion they like). So are you sure that it is not just that anthropomorphic view of God that you cannot believe in?

SLD

[Manakin]

Okay... so what? If God is the Universe, or some such, then fine, I can agree that it exists. But at the same time, I don't know why I should worship it. Or go to the Bible for anything other than entertainment.

[John A. Broussard]

Okay... so what? If God is the Universe, or some such, then fine, I can agree that it exists. But at the same time, I don't know why I should worship it. Or go to the Bible for anything other than entertainment.
You mean you don't want to go to heaven in order to sing the praises of god forever, and ever, and ever, and ever.

How strange.

[PinkPanther_04]

But what else can God be? Perhaps we could apply the Gaiae concept to the Universe and say that is God (pantheism?). But that's little more than redefining the Universe as God. Ok, but it doesn't do anything for me.

God as some undefinable entity, but at least the creator of the laws of physics? If god is the universe, then it isn't a god. It's a universe. If god is undefinable, then the idea of god becomes meaningless. How can an undefinable being be shown to either exist or not exist? And the laws of physics don't need a creator. Laws and theories are descriptions of the way things work, not actual rules that anything must follow.

[DCC]

SLD-

It seems to me that any sort of god is simply a human creation. I'm not sure it makes sense to even talk about a "god" in any other context. They were invented by the human mind, so how could any version of them not be anthropomorphic?

I hope I'm making my point clear. I have a funny feeling I'm not.

I think it's kind of like asking for a type of boat that is free from the influence of the human desire to stay afloat on water.

I hope this isn't completely incoherent. :huh:

[Selsaral]

We can see a clear progression from anthropomorphic Gods to invisible Gods who do nothing (deism). This deist God seems to be nothing but a watered-down version of Jehova, with all the attributes that could actually be tested conveniently removed.

[steamer]

I don't know.

These thoughts originate within my material brain, but what is that matter which makes up my brain? If matter and energy are two forms of the same thing. By observation, we know that energy can and has coalesed into thinking beings and we ourselves are the proof.

On the other hand energy in the form of matter is the only way we have observed this occurrence of thinking beings and we have very little reason that I can see to suspect there are other ways.

Most of us look at life on this planet, our only example, and assume that life is possible in completely foreign environments. When we look at intelligence and our manner of possessing it through matter, we conversly assume foreign enviroments of fields and energies are not possible. We have a matter-centric view of what is possible.

Some kind of energy-only being is probably not impossible, but if it were made of energy, it should be detectable.

[Atheos]

...when you imagine God what pops in your head? Is it the various Far Side Cartoons such as "God Makes a Snake" "God on Jeopardy", etc. I love those! But again we anthropomorphize God, and perhaps we cannot help but do so. We've evolved to recognize faces and humans in a variety shapes and figures (Christians always see Mary, and others see whatever religion they like). So are you sure that it is not just that anthropomorphic view of God that you cannot believe in?When you imagine Santa Claus what pops into your head? Is it a normal height fat man wearing a red suit and a white beard? Does he smoke a pipe? Or is he short and elflike? Is he a black man? Maybe he's actually a thinner man wearing a long green robe. Culture plays a strong role in defining many imaginary concepts. The thing they all have in common is that (like god) having a mental image of what it looks like doesn't make it real.

My predisposition to envision "god" as an old bearded man is only a result of imagery I saw when I was a boy.

-Atheos

[Terrible Heresy]

Part of my becoming a more well informed atheist was this question.

A simple answer would be that without the predispositions to a Christian God or a Jewish God or other such Gods, there's really no reason to beleive in one anyway. Another part of our American society is that it teaches us to give more credit to the notion of a God then we should.

If you eliminate the culturals insistence that there is a God, what remains? The causation argument:rolleyes: Intellegent Design:rolleyes:

That said, looking into these things more deeply has caused me to be more open to the possibility of a deist God. It's basically impossible to disprove a deist God because they don't really make any claims about him. So he's possible...but that doesn't make him probable

[Ulrich]

Living in the US, one is generally going to be predisposed to think of the Christian God, when hearing the term. Having had some experience in this forum, however, I have learned that there are many differing views on who or what God is, even among Christians. You could go about asking each person what they mean when they say "god" and take it from there, however, I find it easier to simply disbelieve any God concept, or supernatural explanation, if no convincing evidence is provided in support of the concept or explanation.

So to answer the topic, I disbelieve any and all gods, not just Jehovah.

[Alf]

I agree that the judeo christian abrahamic type of god is right out.

However, I have problems with this other god too.

For one I don't think this god nor anyone else created the universe. You can pick ANY valid time in the past and you will find that the universe existed at that point in time. There was NEVER any point in time when the universe did not exist.

There are many reasons by which you can reach that conclusion. One is modern physics but even if modern physics isn't your thing you can see it easily this way.

Whatever you see around you at any valid point in time, would be what we would include in reality i.e. the universe. Thus, there cannot be any valid point in time when there is no universe.

How then can this reality ever have been created when it has always existed?

Thus, this god as "creator" of reality and the "creator of laws of physics" is hard to explain. The laws of physics is a result of nature being the way it is and doesn't need any creation nor could it ever have been created. If it were created it would mean that there was a time when there was no natural laws and that is just as impossible as this "nothing" some theists assume god created the universe out of.

At all valid points in time in the past there has always been natural laws - i.e. nature behaving the way it does in a consistent manner.

So no, I don't think there is much room left for even this type of god.

Alf

[mikem]

This one grabbed my attention straight away. I was brought up as a jehovah's Witness, so i regularly addressed God as Jehovah. The word itself is the latinised form of the Hebrew Yahweh. No one is of course sure if this is how Jews pronounced the sacred name, since in their writings the vowel points were left out, and reference to the Deity was simply YHWH, commonly called the tetragrammaton. However, the Jews rarely pronounced the divine name, only the priests on the Day of Atonement were allowed to do so I think. I stand to be corrected on this, but if I remember rightly, it was a capital offence (death by stoning) for anyone else to say the Divine name. Yahweh was more usually called Adonai (Lord), and is also described as Elohim, a more formal title. :notworthy

[Mountain Man]

But when you imagine God what pops in your head?What instantly pops into my head when someone mentions a god is that a god is something THEY define and THEY believe in. To me a god is something out of someone elses mythology.So are you sure that it is not just that anthropomorphic view of God that you cannot believe in?Quite sure.

[Mountain Man]

It seems to me that any sort of god is simply a human creation. I'm not sure it makes sense to even talk about a "god" in any other context. They were invented by the human mind, so how could any version of them not be anthropomorphic?

I hope I'm making my point clear. I have a funny feeling I'm not.It was clear to me, and I agree 100% with what you just said. Gods of any kind are a complete human invention. They exist nowhere else but in human mythologies.

[Mountain Man]

.....if I remember rightly, it was a capital offence (death by stoning) for anyone else to say the Divine name. Yahweh was more usually called Adonai (Lord), and is also described as Elohim, a more formal title. :notworthyThere may have been a death penalty involved, they had lots of those back then, but the main reason was the belief that if you spoke the name of a god, you could control that god.