Need advice on "God made me special" in school

[&theworldwillliveas1]

My family and I are non-religious and I am a self described atheist. My son, who is in second grade, has come home on a few occasions this year and told me of some instances of children and/or this teacher asking him questions about why he doesn't believe in god. He has said also, in the past, that he has been told by a student that he "should believe in god". I've let these instances pass as a common occurrence being that we are part of a small minority in the country (atheist).
When my children come home from school with these problems I have a discussion with them about it and try to educate them on the things that these theologians just don't seem get or understand.
That being said, today my son came home and told me about a project the kids had to work on. The project had to do with a gingerbread man which read "god made me special". Well, my son said that he "didn't like doing it". Being that he is attending a public school, and the teacher herself has, in the past, asked him about his lack of belief, should I just let this also pass, or is there some action that anyone could recommend taking about this?
Perhaps a letter, or approaching her about the religious tone of the project?
I'm really getting quite tired of hearing about these religious tones in my childrens classroom. I am wondering if anyone would say something about this to try and correct this sort of teaching tactic?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Sarpedon]

thats good. First talk to the teacher, and if he/she doesnt cool it, you should complain to the higher ups. Don't escalate it immediately, but it is right and proper for you to take action.

A teacher who uses his/her authority to push religion on kids is nothing more than a bully. Its possible that the teacher doesn't understand the concept of being an atheist, like a lot of theists I've met, but anyway, its inappropriate, and you should do something. I hope your kid isn't too confused or angry about all this.

[TrophyWife]

Teachers shouldn't be questioning children about their religious beliefs. I'd speak to the principal.

[ashe]

I agree, speak to the principal. I would be concerned that the teacher is trying to fit your child into her mold.

In fact, because she doesn't understand your family philosophy, she may believe that your parenting is irrelevant and that "every child" should receive the lesson that God loves them. For their self-esteem, don't you know! ;)

ashe

[huh]

I would talk to the principal about it. There's really no need for that. However, just for clarification...are you saying that the project was to answer how God made them special?

[Rhaedas]

I concur, don't let the teacher get away with this. I'd start with the teacher, with a short letter explaining that their questioning of your child's beliefs is making him feel uncomfortable, and is also illegal. If it continues, contact the principal. It better stop there.

Good for your second grader...peer pressure and the complexity of the subject makes it hard to stand ground and be different, especially at such a young age!

[recklessmind]

Speak to the principal.

Set the tone.

Dont waffle. The teacher is wrong.

Good luck.

[MonCapitan2002]

Get a lawyer and file a lawsuit. The teacher doing this needs to lose her job.

[&theworldwillliveas1]

Thank you for all the response.
To answer huhs question, no, I think it was more of a holiday extra than it was a "lesson". The paper hasn't come home yet so I really can't say what the project totally consisted of. What alerted me was that he had been approached about his disbelief before, and now there is solicited literature on how "god made" my son "special".

I think I'll start with a letter to the teacher. I'm still on the fence about approaching the principal though. My wife is afraid that if I make this to known, it may result in the chance that he will become isolated or discriminated against in some manner. I don't want him to feel that way for the rest of his elementary career at the school either. She has a point, but on the other hand it may keep the staff on their toes.

Rhaedas plan of action seems to be reasonable enough. By the way...
Good for your second grader...peer pressure and the complexity of the subject makes it hard to stand ground and be different, especially at such a young age!
...Thanks, he is a hard headed little bugger.

[Shpongle]

Get a lawyer and file a lawsuit. The teacher doing this needs to lose her job.

Over-react much?

[muon]

Principals are less inclined to take parents' complaints seriously if the parents haven't made an effort to resolve the problem directly with the teacher first. Start by talking with the teacher, then move to the principal if you don't get satisfaction.

[MonCapitan2002]

Over-react much?
Not at all. He beliefs in bullshit have no place in the classroom and she should not be using her power to push them. Bullshit instruction or lack of should be at the discretion of parents. She has no fucking business pushing her bullshit beliefs. She should lose her job over doing so. So yes, I do happen to think she should lose her job. It should be a one strike your out policy. That would end the bullshit coercion real quickly.

*bullshit=religion

[&theworldwillliveas1]

MonCapitan2002,
I would agree with you if the situation was a more extreme case of her teaching about the xtian religion in scriptual terms to the children. But I don't think a piece of paper that says "god made me special" is ground for termination.

I'll se what happens after sending her the letter.

[&theworldwillliveas1]

Here's a copy of the letter I'm going to send to the teacher. I think this should clean things up. (I've blocked the names out)

Dear **********,
I am writing you in regards to a situation **** had made me aware of yesterday after school. He has come home in the past and told me of instances in which he had been asked about his disbelief in a god as well as other confrontations with fellow piers. This is acceptable with me to an extent, being that our family’s natural and scientific view of the world is, sadly, a rare minority in this country. Also, it may well be that he voiced his opinion first. I try to teach my children about logical scientific theories of our existence rather than a religious theology (also known these days as intelligent design). This teaching also includes the current holidays past history. I’m referring to the winter solstice, which is the basis for our family’s celebration of the season, even though we still refer to it as the “Christmas� holiday (primarily because of popular demand). ****, only being seven, does not yet have a full scientific understanding of how life has evolved. He is not yet educated on how ancient astronomy, literature, and superstition have come to form the popular religion known as Christianity. He also does not yet know how religious and spiritual traditions from history have formed holiday traditions that are practiced today during the Christmas holiday. He only has a simple explanation of how things happened. This explanation does not include the simplest of all explanations which is, “God did it�. I have not yet stressed the technical issues of how evolution works, simply because of his age and level of understanding. I will work on this when he is old enough to understand.
The situation in which I am writing to you about is a gingerbread man project that apparently, from my understanding, read “God made me special�. He came to me and said that “he didn’t like it�. These type of situations make him uncomfortable, and with good reason. His understanding is that his mom and dad “made� him, and that is what makes him special. When hearing of such solicited literature in public school, I became alarmed myself. In this country, ideas with such religious propaganda as this should only be solicited in a place of worship, or in a private setting. It is certainly not appropriate in a government funded school. I will grant you that it is the season of the religious majority to theme “God�, however, there are children of families who attend public education, as rare as it might be, who do not practice as you might. A seven year olds mind is, as you know, very impressionable. While I do not think your intention was to stress any religious ideas by offering this project, I would appreciate it if you would be more thoughtful of the impressions you promote while teaching in public education.
That being said, I would like to say that I think you are a great teacher and have done a wonderful job working with **** and the class. I can only hope that my daughter comes into your class in the future. Having four children myself, I can appreciate the tasks you encounter every day. You certainly have my utmost respect, support, and gratitude for your efforts.
I hope you can understand my concern in this matter and that you will take this in consideration for the future. Thank you.


***************

[Primer Mi Carucha]

Here's a copy of the letter I'm going to send to the teacher. I think this should clean things up. (I've blocked the names out)

Dear **********,
I am writing you in regards to a situation **** had made me aware of yesterday after school. He has come home in the past and told me of instances in which he had been asked about his disbelief in a god as well as other confrontations with fellow piers. This is acceptable with me to an extent, being that our family’s natural and scientific view of the world is, sadly, a rare minority in this country. Also, it may well be that he voiced his opinion first. I try to teach my children about logical scientific theories of our existence rather than a religious theology (also known these days as intelligent design). This teaching also includes the current holidays past history. I’m referring to the winter solstice, which is the basis for our family’s celebration of the season, even though we still refer to it as the “Christmas� holiday (primarily because of popular demand). ****, only being seven, does not yet have a full scientific understanding of how life has evolved. He is not yet educated on how ancient astronomy, literature, and superstition have come to form the popular religion known as Christianity. He also does not yet know how religious and spiritual traditions from history have formed holiday traditions that are practiced today during the Christmas holiday. He only has a simple explanation of how things happened. This explanation does not include the simplest of all explanations which is, “God did it�. I have not yet stressed the technical issues of how evolution works, simply because of his age and level of understanding. I will work on this when he is old enough to understand.
The situation in which I am writing to you about is a gingerbread man project that apparently, from my understanding, read “God made me special�. He came to me and said that “he didn’t like it�. These type of situations make him uncomfortable, and with good reason. His understanding is that his mom and dad “made� him, and that is what makes him special. When hearing of such solicited literature in public school, I became alarmed myself. In this country, ideas with such religious propaganda as this should only be solicited in a place of worship, or in a private setting. It is certainly not appropriate in a government funded school. I will grant you that it is the season of the religious majority to theme “God�, however, there are children of families who attend public education, as rare as it might be, who do not practice as you might. A seven year olds mind is, as you know, very impressionable. While I do not think your intention was to stress any religious ideas by offering this project, I would appreciate it if you would be more thoughtful of the impressions you promote while teaching in public education.
That being said, I would like to say that I think you are a great teacher and have done a wonderful job working with **** and the class. I can only hope that my daughter comes into your class in the future. Having four children myself, I can appreciate the tasks you encounter every day. You certainly have my utmost respect, support, and gratitude for your efforts.
I hope you can understand my concern in this matter and that you will take this in consideration for the future. Thank you.


***************

That is a great letter, but in my opinion it is slightly too strong in this context on the weaknesses of Christianity and theism. I would just mention that you and you're family are not Christians, or are not religious in general, and then go into detail about how it is inappropriate for such class activities to be pushed on your son, and that they have no place in a public school (like you did in the second half of your letter).

Good luck, because it is certainly important that your son remains who he is: free, unique, and without intellectual boundaries.

[Asha'man]

Here's a copy of the letter I'm going to send to the teacher. I think this should clean things up. (I've blocked the names out)


It's too strong and confrontational, in my opinion. You are accusing the teacher of following a superstition, essentially. Don't attack the religion, just the illegality of pushing it in the classroom. Don't stress the atheism itself, just the 'different' religious viewpoint.

Tone it down a bit, at least for the first letter. If it continues, get stronger and more direct later.


"My family and my son have a set of beliefs about religion that appear to conflict with yours. School should be a place that is safe and isolated from religious disagreement and especially discomfort. It is both illegal and immoral for you to use your position as a teacher to push your beliefs as a replacement for those of my family. Please restrict your comments about God to the forms used by professional academics, at least while in the classroom."


Just some suggested wording, but even that may be too strong....

[mrzyphl]

Here's a copy of the letter I'm going to send to the teacher. I think this should clean things up. (I've blocked the names out)

snip>> I try to teach my children about logical scientific theories of our existence rather than a religious theology (also known these days as intelligent design). This teaching also includes the current holidays past history. I’m referring to the winter solstice, which is the basis for our family’s celebration of the season, even though we still refer to it as the “Christmas� holiday (primarily because of popular demand). ****, only being seven, does not yet have a full scientific understanding of how life has evolved. He is not yet educated on how ancient astronomy, literature, and superstition have come to form the popular religion known as Christianity. He also does not yet know how religious and spiritual traditions from history have formed holiday traditions that are practiced today during the Christmas holiday. He only has a simple explanation of how things happened. This explanation does not include the simplest of all explanations which is, “God did it�. I have not yet stressed the technical issues of how evolution works, simply because of his age and level of understanding. I will work on this when he is old enough to understand. snip>>>



***************

I don't think the above portion is necessary. I think your last 3 paragraphs were very good (especially the propaganda part) and covered pretty much all you needed to say.
Oh yeah, you mispelled 'peers'

[AspenMama]

I have 2 children in elementary school, one in the first grade and one in fourth. If either of my children came home with a project like this, I'd make a phone call to the teacher first, or even send her an email. And not stop until she understood the situation. I do think action is important here but also in the interest of educating others about what atheism is and keeping things congenial....I agree that your letter is a little over the top here. First and foremost, use spellcheck. "Pier" refers to a mooring for boats; "peer" is the correct word! Here's what I'd write for starters:


Dear **********,
First, I'd like to commend you for being a great teacher. Recently however, my son has let me know that he is uncomfortable with an assigned school project-- the gingerbread man project. Your recent assignment to the children that they complete a question titled "Why God made me special" goes against my family's philosophies and is an infringement on teaching religion in public schools. We are atheists and while we most certainly believe every child and individual is special, we do not believe that any god made us that way.

[ZouPrime]

Why don't you just ask the teacher if your child can write something else on the gingerbread man? Problem solved.

[Alter]

Why don't you just ask the teacher if your child can write something else on the gingerbread man? Problem solved.

Because the teacher should not be teaching ANY of the children such drivel, and having your child do something different is in effect isolating them for something the TEACHER did wrong.

Write a note to the teacher. If you are not satisfied with the response, document everything and get the lawyers at www.au.org or www.ffrf.org or www.aclu.org or www.pfaw.org to write a letter for you, one of them will be happy to do it if the teacher and the principal do not properly reply.

[Mediancat]

When I was in high school, an English teacher asked us to write a letter to God asking him a question. When I told him that I was an atheist, he seemed kind of skeptical of my disbelief but told me that my assignment was going to be writing a letter to God and asking him to prove his existence. I thought that was a fair compromise, especially given that I lived at the time in South-Central PA.

A compromise may be the best you can expect out of this, unfortunately.

Rob aka Mediancat

[ZouPrime]

Because the teacher should not be teaching ANY of the children such drivel, and having your child do something different is in effect isolating them for something the TEACHER did wrong.

Write a note to the teacher. If you are not satisfied with the response, document everything and get the lawyers at www.au.org or www.ffrf.org or www.aclu.org or www.pfaw.org to write a letter for you, one of them will be happy to do it if the teacher and the principal do not properly reply.

Ok, let's put it this way instead: the OP has two choices:

a) Deal with the teacher (who probably acted in ignorance and wasn't trying to push any agenda on the kid) directly and agree for a fair compromise. If you fear the child we'll be "singled out", ask the teacher to offer to all the kids the possibility of writing something else on the gingerbread man.

b) Make a huge fuss of it, call the press, call the lawyers, transform a simple and stupid error into a huge media circus and put a child right in the center of the issue. See all the religious folks complain about the "hated filled atheist".

[Morgolf]

In my opinion,

Your last three paragraphs were excellent, but the first paragraph, as Primer Mi Carucha and Asha'man said, is slightly harsh. I would tone that part down, but perhaps include a part about a meeting, in person, with the teacher if needed.

Keep a record of the letter and any responses handy to show the Principal or Superintendent if necessary.

[Bright Life]

&theworldwillliveas1,

I agree with the consensus that you should tone down the letter. You don't have to go that deeply into your own beliefs. That religion should not be included in the curriculum is enough.

I'm going to move the thread to Secular Life, as this is exactly the type of thing that form is for.

Oh, and welcome! :wave:

[Stacey Melissa]

Make it more concise. You should be able to say what needs to be said in four or six sentences. You don't need to explain or justify your nonbelief, and you can skip the platitudes.

[Illithid]

Hi there, &theworld. Oh, and "seven-year old's" needs the apostrophe. That's the only other error I saw besides "peers", which translates to a high level of literacy, since I am an anal picker of nits. Wow, that sounds nasty taken literally.

My son's kindergarten teacher seemed a decent sort until she found out about my nonbelief. Then there was this gradual campaign against him which still makes me taste bile when I see her. He had a horrible remainder of the year, and had to go to a pre-first class partly to give him time to repair the damage (thanks to a wonderful pre-first teacher). She assumed he was lying in every dispute between students, jumped on him for minor infractions when those of others were ignored, and tried to convince us and the school that he was learning-disabled and might never learn to read.

He is now in second grade and reads at 6th to 7th grade level, and is a bright, happy kid. But I will never forgive this teacher the pain she caused. It's tough avoiding guilt myself.

We were not the only one to complain about this teacher, and she did the next year under near-constant supervision, though she is still employed. Annoyingly, she lives on our street, but we are playing nice in public. This did not turn into a school-wide program of harrassment against my son, and the principal was very sympathetic and helpful, but the allegations were difficult to prove.

I don't know what my point was, here. Just sharing experiences I guess. Maybe it made him stronger. The really disturbing thing was that he hadn't even brought the subject up; she found out in casual discussion with my wife.

Oh, one more thing, at 7 my son was okay with the basics of evolution, physics, etc. You've just got to simplify without dumbing down. Easier said than done, to be sure. About half the time, we have the morning science question on the way to school (asked by him, no prompting from me). Great, fun kid!

[Siamang]

I'd also say about the letter to keep it business-like.

In school, they taught us that business letters say only what needs to be said, in the clearest and tersest way possible.

I'd recommend:

"I learned from my child today that there was a classroom activity that focused on a religious message, "God made me special." In the past, my child has been singled out because of the different personal beliefs of our family. I would remind you that this is a public school, not a religious one.

I would like to schedule a conference with you at your earliest convinience to discuss ways we can keep these problems from continuing."


It sounds rightfully pissed-off. But it doesn't get into ancient astrology, myth, saturnalia, the invisible pink unicorn..... etc.

[&theworldwillliveas1]

I see everyone’s point about the first paragraph, but I guess it's in my nature to try and get others to understand a point of view that's outside of their normal thinking. Perhaps by making it clear that this is the way we are, she can relate a little more to where I’m coming from with my concerns. I’m also a bit sick and tired of hearing about every xtians “relationship� with an invisible, pretend god. So maybe I wanted to “stick it� to her a bit before I got to the heart of the matter. ( A subconscious sucker punch to people I’m constantly stuck listening to like O’Riely, Scarborough, ect.:banghead: ) It’s already in my sons hand going to the teacher anyways so, there’s no turning back now…….. I DO wish I caught that “pier� misspelling myself. I feel a bit silly now, suggesting my son was religiously confronted by a water structure commonly used for fishing.;)

Thanks again for the input.

[Morgolf]

Forgot to mention earlier, but Welcome! And hope the letter helps.

[Stacey Melissa]

I guess it's a bit late for the suggestion, but I'd suggest you deliver it yourself, or put a stamp on it and have the mailman do it.

Umm, so that means... to anyone else in a similar situation, deliver it yourself or via mail. ;)

[Random Evil Guy]

My family and I are non-religious and I am a self described atheist. My son, who is in second grade, has come home on a few occasions this year and told me of some instances of children and/or this teacher asking him questions about why he doesn't believe in god. He has said also, in the past, that he has been told by a student that he "should believe in god". I've let these instances pass as a common occurrence being that we are part of a small minority in the country (atheist).
When my children come home from school with these problems I have a discussion with them about it and try to educate them on the things that these theologians just don't seem get or understand.
That being said, today my son came home and told me about a project the kids had to work on. The project had to do with a gingerbread man which read "god made me special". Well, my son said that he "didn't like doing it". Being that he is attending a public school, and the teacher herself has, in the past, asked him about his lack of belief, should I just let this also pass, or is there some action that anyone could recommend taking about this?
Perhaps a letter, or approaching her about the religious tone of the project?
I'm really getting quite tired of hearing about these religious tones in my childrens classroom. I am wondering if anyone would say something about this to try and correct this sort of teaching tactic?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

go smack the teacher around!

or you could just go and talk to the teacher and try to reason with her. however, seeing as she is a christian, option 1 would probably be quicker, better and more satisfying...:)

[&theworldwillliveas1]

go smack the teacher around!

or you could just go and talk to the teacher and try to reason with her. however, seeing as she is a christian, option 1 would probably be quicker, better and more satisfying...:)

:rolling:

[Astreja]

Quicker, better, more satisfying, yes, but not a good fit with your user name. (Great one, BTW... I just figured it out.)

Definitely, definitely get something to the teacher in writing on this. If you don't like the response, take the issue up the school hierarchy, person by person, until someone does something.

[jaded_revenge]

They do realize the ginger bread man got eaten in the end...

Good luck with this, such a thing really shouldn't be forced onto children.

[MonCapitan2002]

MonCapitan2002,
I would agree with you if the situation was a more extreme case of her teaching about the xtian religion in scriptual terms to the children. But I don't think a piece of paper that says "god made me special" is ground for termination.

I'll se what happens after sending her the letter.
Yes it is. The moment you push any religious belief in a government funded school, you should lose your job. Religion has no place in the public square and certainly does not belong in government or government operated facilities in any capacity.

[MonCapitan2002]

That is a great letter, but in my opinion it is slightly too strong in this context on the weaknesses of Christianity and theism. I would just mention that you and you're family are not Christians, or are not religious in general, and then go into detail about how it is inappropriate for such class activities to be pushed on your son, and that they have no place in a public school (like you did in the second half of your letter).

Good luck, because it is certainly important that your son remains who he is: free, unique, and without intellectual boundaries.
I don't think it is strong enough. The teacher should have been hammered mercilessly.

[Belle]

I DO wish I caught that “pier� misspelling myself. I feel a bit silly now, suggesting my son was religiously confronted by a water structure commonly used for fishing.;)

Thanks again for the input.

<snicker> That's great. Good luck with this issue and let us know if you make any headway with this teacher.

[Shpongle]

I don't think it is strong enough. The teacher should have been hammered mercilessly.

To what end? To make atheists look like a bunch of intolerant assholes?

To quote Sun Tzu:

"Winning one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue your enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

Sometimes avoiding an unnecessary conflict is preferable to perpetuating one.

[&theworldwillliveas1]

I was reminded that I hadn't responded to the outcome of this soooo, here it is.

A couple of days after my letter went to the teacher, I received a response in my sons daily planner. (I'm guessing it took longer because she didn't know how to handle such a thing.) I was rather upset about the action taken, but there is not much more I could've done anyway. You'll see what I mean.

The response read:
"Thanks for the letter and keeping me informed. Your concerns and consideration will be considered in the future. Thanks"

.......................Huh? Makes me feel really comforted that this woman is teaching my son his entire second grade year. I suspect this is just a way to blow me off politely.
A special gingerbread man was remade, by her, with star buttons on the front instead of the slogan……… I should have demanded they be recalled for the entire class. MonCapitan2002 may have been correct about not being strong enough.

That was it though. She’ll probably never run into another atheist child during her career, so I won’t be surprised if next year there is a stack of……“god made�……. Paper gingerbread ornaments on their way to the minds of defenseless children.

[Primer Mi Carucha]

I was reminded that I hadn't responded to the outcome of this soooo, here it is.

A couple of days after my letter went to the teacher, I received a response in my sons daily planner. (I'm guessing it took longer because she didn't know how to handle such a thing.) I was rather upset about the action taken, but there is not much more I could've done anyway. You'll see what I mean.

The response read:
"Thanks for the letter and keeping me informed. Your concerns and consideration will be considered in the future. Thanks"

.......................Huh? Makes me feel really comforted that this woman is teaching my son his entire second grade year. I suspect this is just a way to blow me off politely.
A special gingerbread man was remade, by her, with star buttons on the front instead of the slogan……… I should have demanded they be recalled for the entire class. MonCapitan2002 may have been correct about not being strong enough.

That was it though. She’ll probably never run into another atheist child during her career, so I won’t be surprised if next year there is a stack of……“god made�……. Paper gingerbread ornaments on their way to the minds of defenseless children.

Yep. That's a pretty crappy response. It gives out a sort of "don't tell me how to teach children, atheist". She should have apologised, at the very least.

[TheHolyHandGrenade]

The response read:
"Thanks for the letter and keeping me informed. Your concerns and consideration will be considered in the future. Thanks"
Were one of a suspicious nature, one might suspect that she wrote it that way to avoid committing, to paper, the issue or any admission of wrongdoing. :devil3:

[Agemegos]

other confrontations with fellow piers.

"Fellow students" or "peers". "Fellow peers" is redundant.

In general, I think you put too much into defending your [ir]religious position. You ought to take it for granted that it is up to you to inform and guide your child's religious opinions without interference from the teacher, and without having to seek the principal's approval. Take your privilege in this matter for granted. Do not attempt to justify your beliefs, nor shore them up with appeals to science. Among the benefits of trimming out this material would be to make your letter shorter.

My draft would look something like this:

Dear Principal Skinner

As perhaps you are aware, my wife and I are skeptical on religious matters, and we are raising our son Bart to believe only that for which he has sufficient evidence. Like any parents, we take to guiding our child's religious development as a very serious responsibility, and we expect to discharge it without opposition or interference from the public schools.

Bart has mentioned a few times that he has discussed his lack of religious affiliation with other, religious, pupils, and we consider that entirely appropriate and wholesome. We want Bart to be on easy and open terms with his peers, and to be aware that other people, the majority in this country at present, hold religious views. We want him to grow up accustomed to the free discussion and exchange of religious ideas on terms of equality with fellow-Americans. The other side of the same coin is that we do not want teachers impressing religious views from their unequal position, and we certainly do not want religious exercises imposed on our son in the guise of school work.

Some weeks ago Bart told his mother that his teacher, Ms. Krabappel, had been questioning him about his Freethinking background and asking challenging questions about religious propositions. We thought that this was highly inappropriate, but judged that the best course was to 'turn down the volume' and not make an issue of it. But this week Bart tells us that Ms Krabappel has set classroom exercises on the theme 'God Made Me Special', and that he felt unhappy about being required to do them, but that he was too embarrassed to refuse. I wrote to Ms Krabappel confidentially, and have received a vacuous and dismissive reply in my son's daily plannner, which I read as a put-down. Mrs &theworldwillliveas1 and I are very angry.

It is utterly inappropriate for Ms Krabappel to set religious exercises in class, even if Freethinking children are excused them (which Bart was not in this case). We must insist that this practice cease immediately, and that Ms Krabappel be urged to refrain from discussing religion with pupils. Children without religious affiliation are indeed a minority, but they have a right to be neither badgered about religion nor stigmatised by exclusion.

We don't want Ms Krabappel to be embarrassed or humiliated in front of her class or colleagues, but her abuse of her position for religious ends must stop. Unless we receive a satisfactory assurance from you, we must consider legal remedies.

Yours sincerely,


&theworldwillliveas1

[Never]

When I went to my child's teacher about an issue like this, she at least acted like she took me seriously. She took the time to explain exactly what they were doing in class and how she was trying to be very careful with the subject of religion (related to a story they were reading).

In your case, that sounds like you have been dismissed.

I would ask to meet with the principle to get an explanation as to what school policy is on the matter. The reason being that the teacher was abviously not willing to either change her practice, try to explain it, or even apologize to the one offended. Does the modified gingerbread man for your son mean that she will be careful in the future that she is not sending religious gingerbread men home with children they are not appropriate for? Does it mean that uncomfortable questions directed to your child and others like him will be handled correctly?

[Barefoot Bree]

If it were me, I'd wait a bit. See what happens next. She might be taking the thing a whole lot more seriously than her note suggests, and may change her ways in class. As theHolyHandGrenade says, that was a very carefully worded note.

Hang on to that note, and your letter, though. If it DOES happen again, go straight to the principal with both in hand.

[recklessmind]

Agemegos, that was a great letter!

[Agemegos]

Agemegos, that was a great letter!

Thank you.

[BigBlue2]

The response read:
"Thanks for the letter and keeping me informed. Your concerns and consideration will be considered in the future. Thanks" Unsatisfactory. Escalate it to the principal using Agemegos' letter as an example.

If it were me, I'd wait a bit. See what happens next. She might be taking the thing a whole lot more seriously than her note suggests, and may change her ways in class. The response is something you get from your congresscritter when complaining about your taxes. The teacher is not taking the issue (or &theworldwillliveas1) seriously, and it's time she did.

[&theworldwillliveas1]

"Fellow students" or "peers". "Fellow peers" is redundant.

In general, I think you put too much into defending your [ir]religious position. You ought to take it for granted that it is up to you to inform and guide your child's religious opinions without interference from the teacher, and without having to seek the principal's approval. Take your privilege in this matter for granted. Do not attempt to justify your beliefs, nor shore them up with appeals to science. Among the benefits of trimming out this material would be to make your letter shorter.

My draft would look something like this:

Dear Principal Skinner

As perhaps you are aware, my wife and I are skeptical on religious matters, and we are raising our son Bart to believe only that for which he has sufficient evidence. Like any parents, we take to guiding our child's religious development as a very serious responsibility, and we expect to discharge it without opposition or interference from the public schools.

Bart has mentioned a few times that he has discussed his lack of religious affiliation with other, religious, pupils, and we consider that entirely appropriate and wholesome. We want Bart to be on easy and open terms with his peers, and to be aware that other people, the majority in this country at present, hold religious views. We want him to grow up accustomed to the free discussion and exchange of religious ideas on terms of equality with fellow-Americans. The other side of the same coin is that we do not want teachers impressing religious views from their unequal position, and we certainly do not want religious exercises imposed on our son in the guise of school work.

Some weeks ago Bart told his mother that his teacher, Ms. Krabappel, had been questioning him about his Freethinking background and asking challenging questions about religious propositions. We thought that this was highly inappropriate, but judged that the best course was to 'turn down the volume' and not make an issue of it. But this week Bart tells us that Ms Krabappel has set classroom exercises on the theme 'God Made Me Special', and that he felt unhappy about being required to do them, but that he was too embarrassed to refuse. I wrote to Ms Krabappel confidentially, and have received a vacuous and dismissive reply in my son's daily plannner, which I read as a put-down. Mrs &theworldwillliveas1 and I are very angry.

It is utterly inappropriate for Ms Krabappel to set religious exercises in class, even if Freethinking children are excused them (which Bart was not in this case). We must insist that this practice cease immediately, and that Ms Krabappel be urged to refrain from discussing religion with pupils. Children without religious affiliation are indeed a minority, but they have a right to be neither badgered about religion nor stigmatised by exclusion.

We don't want Ms Krabappel to be embarrassed or humiliated in front of her class or colleagues, but her abuse of her position for religious ends must stop. Unless we receive a satisfactory assurance from you, we must consider legal remedies.

Yours sincerely,


&theworldwillliveas1

Unsatisfactory. Escalate it to the principal using Agemegos' letter as an example.

Really? You are both suggesting I take a next step?....And if so,Agemegos, could I use alot of that wording in your draft? :D

[SaguaroJen]

Hello, liveas1. What an ugly situation.

Please take the next step and don't hesitate to go to the district office if the you don't feel completely satisfied with the results. The response you received from the teacher does not show any understanding of the seriousness of the situation and indicates that she believes her actions were appropriate.

I've been a teacher for 16 years under 5 different principals. Not one of them would have tolerated that teacher's behavior - though the teacher would not be fired based solely on this incident. This teacher should be officially warned by the district and put on probation (meaning that she would have to review the "teacher rule book" and be observed more often). Our district lawyer would have a heart attack about this - want his number? ;)

Kudos to you on raising a spirited, confident child.

Jen

[Agemegos]

Really? You are both suggesting I take a next step?

To me the teacher's response seems vague and dismissive. It is not really responsive: she has said that your concerns will be 'considered', but left open the possbility that they will be dismissed after consideration. No acknowledgement that she did wrong, no assurance that she will not do the same again, no recognition that you are insisting on rights that are protected by the US Constitution. It is not her place to 'consider' your views on this matter, it is her place to respect your rights. Her response is quite unstisfactory.

And if so,Agemegos, could I use alot of that wording in your draft? :D
As much as you like. I'd cut the Simpsons references, though.

[Sarpedon]

Write back to teacher:

"thank you for your note. I would like to meet to discuss this as soon as possible. If your schedule does not permit this, I will schedule a meeting with the Superintendant instead."

[Jobar]

Sarpedon's right. Your next action needs to be a face-to-face meeting, so that you can't be brushed off (which is just what that note was.)

I agree that your letter was too strong for a first contact on this problem, and so you need to be careful not to be too confrontational when you meet. Especially if the teacher is religious, you probably pissed her off. Still, make it clear that you aren't satisfied with her response.

[Worldtraveller]

on the response, I would make it clear that her behavior is inappropriate, period, not just with respect to your child.

Otherwise, she will (most likely) simply single him out anytime she wants to a religiously themed project.

This has the double negative affect of singling your child out, and allowing the teacher to continue her unconstitutional behavior.

Your best course of action, IMO, is to still communicate that to the teacher. I'd be happy to help with letter writing and legal references, although IANAL. :)

Cheers,
Lane

[&theworldwillliveas1]

Wow.....Okay, leaning toward more action…. My next concern though, as well as my wifes, is that my son will be flagged or black-booked for the rest of his elementary years as the 'evil atheist kid'. The talk of the teacher town.

SaguaroJen, being a teacher yourself, do you think this is something I should worry about?

I don't want my son to be emotionally scarred or socially shunned because his parents made a stink of some silly ginger-bread project in the second grade.


edited addition: Thanks for all the help offerings. I may take you up on them.

[Jinksy]

To build on what a few people said about the first letter, I'd suggest proofreading any further written correspondence a lot more closely. There were several mistakes in the original letter, which probably contributes to the impression the teacher doubtless has already that you and your son are undereducated.

If you do write another letter, I'll be happy to proofread it if you PM me.

[Peter Watts]

My family and I are non-religious and I am a self described atheist. My son, who is in second grade, has come home on a few occasions this year and told me of some instances of children and/or this teacher asking him questions about why he doesn't believe in god. He has said also, in the past, that he has been told by a student that he "should believe in god". I've let these instances pass as a common occurrence being that we are part of a small minority in the country (atheist).
When my children come home from school with these problems I have a discussion with them about it and try to educate them on the things that these theologians just don't seem get or understand.
That being said, today my son came home and told me about a project the kids had to work on. The project had to do with a gingerbread man which read "god made me special". Well, my son said that he "didn't like doing it". Being that he is attending a public school, and the teacher herself has, in the past, asked him about his lack of belief, should I just let this also pass, or is there some action that anyone could recommend taking about this?
Perhaps a letter, or approaching her about the religious tone of the project?
I'm really getting quite tired of hearing about these religious tones in my childrens classroom. I am wondering if anyone would say something about this to try and correct this sort of teaching tactic?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Write a letter to the teacher —Â*not a threatening letter, but something firm — outlining the problem, why this bothers you and what measures you propose for dealing with this issue.
I'm a Christian, but I don't believe the teacher in a public school should be putting your child on the spot about his religious beliefs (or lack thereof).
That's my stand on this. Being a Christian doesn't mean I think you and your family should have my beliefs forced on your son by an authority figure in a public school.

However ...
You mentioned that other children had asked your son about his beliefs. You can talk to your son about handling situations like that, but what's talked about among children isn't synonymous with the above mentioned issue. You could make the argument that the teacher is setting the tone in the class, and it sounds like you'd be right, but you don't have a lot of control over what kids talk about among themselves. Keep that in mind.
As much as you don't like religious beliefs or faith, it is still permissible for individuals to discuss Christianity. Even kids.

I hope the problem gets worked out and your child has a more positive experience in his class.

[Cruci Fiction]

Previous posters have a very valid point that the teacher has interpreted your letter in such a way that she will now single out your son as opposed to the all important aspect of modifying her practice in the future so as to cease interjecting "God" into the classroom in general. Only if it is of the utmost importance to you that the teacher fully understands the church/state separation issue at hand would I advise taking additional measures at this juncture. This is because of the very real concern of possible repercussions upon your son, or even upon your family -- the likes of which we may not even begin to speculate.

You may want to consider letting things alone right now, holding off until such time in the future that you learn once again of God creeping into her classroom, or perhaps see evidence of "special treatment" toward your son. And then you would have a much better case in which to follow up on the original letter of concern with stronger action, even taking it directly to a higher level.

[MrDarwin]

First, I agree that the next step is a face-to-face meeting with the teacher. Only after that fails should you go above her head.

You should not be defending your own beliefs or attacking hers, simply letting her know that this assignment was inappropriate in a public school because some of the children do not believe in God, your child being one of them. She probably has no clue she is doing anything wrong--after all, from her point of view, she is not pushing any one religious viewpoint. What I think needs to be stressed to her is that the assignment made your child uncomfortable--certainly enough to mention it to you--and why.

Above all, don't be combative about it; be as friendly and positive as possible. Is she a good teacher otherwise? If so, try to keep that in mind and try to see it from her point of view, and then approach the subject in the way you think she would find most convincing. In this case, it's that any discussion of religious beliefs, even the most seemingly benign, will single out those children whose religious beliefs are in the minority, and at your child's age that simply isn't fair.

Good luck. (BTW my sister is an elementary school teacher and I hear all kinds of things from her about her interactions with parents, so that's largely where I'm coming from.)

Edited to add: this is all part of the educational process for your child and you should view it as such. Not all of life's lessons are pleasant ones. It's great that he trusts you enough to tell you things like this, and maybe some of your discussion with him could be about how to handle situations like this, which are bound to come up again in the future.

[Worldtraveller]

MrDarwin makes some great points. Don't get into what her beliefs are, or what yours are. Emphasize that her sharing of her beliefs in class makes your son uncomfortable.

Unless she stubbornly tells you tough shit, or something along those lines, I wouldn't even mention the first amendment or the constitution.

When you go to meet with her, take a notepad or notebook. Jot down her response, regardless of what she says.

Something like 'Miss Krabapple agreed to refrain from making religious comments in class.' Or 'Miss Krabapple refused to stop making religious references in class after being told that it makes Bart uncomfortable and I asked her to refrain from doing so in the future.' Date and time of meeting is also important.

In either case, it gives you important and valuable 'ammunition' should further action be necessary. If she doesn't agree that she is out of line, your next step would be a similar face to face meeting with the school administration (probably the principle). Again, don't mention the legal aspects of it at all on your first meeting. And again, take notes.

If the principle agrees to talk with the teacher, ask for something in writing that the preinciple has the teacher sign. Don't presume to tell the principle what to provide, let him/her provide it. If it's adequate, you're good. If you don't think it goes far enough, go back and then state in very specific words what you would like to see in writing.

Only after this should you even consider contacting a lawyer, or the ACLU, in my opinion. If the teacher signs the paper, but continues her practice of including religion and making your son uncomfortable, you have evidence that the teacher (and school administration) was aware of the consequences. If they teacher an the administration simply refuse to acknowledge your right to teach your son your beliefs, then you will have almost no choice but to contact a lawyer. But I think that should be nearly a last resort.

I know this seems like a lot, but you will have better luck working within the system than trying to fight the system as well as the few bad apples in the system.

FWIW, I have done a similar thing, although unrelated to atheism, with a community college once that took up a large part of my free time for the bette part of a semester. The good news is that we wound up getting the school (entire district wide) to change their practices to be much less discriminatory. So sometimes the little guys do win.

Cheers,
Lane

[mac_philo]

I'm sorry you're in this bad situation.

If you continue, you need to change your approach. Many people have said your letter was too strong; I'd rather say parts of it were irrelevant and even counterproductive. Science, the genesis of Christianity, superstition, intelligent design, etc., are all irrelevant to the issue. (Even your atheism is irrelevant---a theist might be just as uncomfortable about this as you. Of course, discussing this with the teacher may be easiest in terms of your atheism.)

The teacher should not be endorsing religion or questioning students on their religious beliefs. That's it. All the other stuff confuses the issue and brings in extra controversy.

[nixon]

She probably has no clue she is doing anything wrong--after all, from her point of view, she is not pushing any one religious viewpoint.

This is one of the biggest problems with most Christians. In their mind, christianity isn't a religion, it's the Truth (tm). Religion is those wrong things that all those other people (Including atheists) practice. They either can't concieve that they are the same thing as all the other religions, or they are malicious enough to know but not care, so as help sucker other christians into believing. Afterall the "Truth" sounds so much better than "religion".

[BigJim]

This is one of the biggest problems with most Christians. In their mind, christianity isn't a religion, it's the Truth (tm).

I think Mr Darwin was getting at something a little different. i.e. Even those wrong religions, like judaism and Islam (and the Xian sects that are different than mine) still all believe in God, so "God made me special" shouldn't offend anyone.

At least that's what I read in his post.

[nixon]

I agree with you BigJim. I was just pointing out the MO of most christians is that those other religions are evil or lost just like atheism. Darwin might think purer thoughts for her, and I would agree with the two of you but for the different reasons that I specified above. I believe that she thinks she was right, but because christianity is the "Truth (tm)" and so it goes without saying that god made me special is par for the classroom course.

[Agemegos]

Many people have said your letter was too strong; I'd rather say parts of it were irrelevant and even counterproductive. Science, the genesis of Christianity, superstition, intelligent design, etc., are all irrelevant to the issue.

Indeed. The issues are:

1. That guiding their children's religious development is up to parents, not the schools, and that all parents, including atheists and polytheists, are entitled to expect that their teachings are not contradicted or challenged by schoolteachers.

2. That separating out the atheists, polytheists, jews, and adventists for separate treatment in any respect has at very least the effect of making them feel embarrassed about being different, and runs the risk of stigmatising them in the eyes of their peers.

Therefore:

1: The teachers (not just Ms Krabappel) must set no exercise for any student that has a religious content of any kind.

2: The teachers (not just Ms. Krabappel) must not challenge any student's beliefs either with statements or with questions.

3. The teachers (not just Ms. Krabappel) must neither do anything, nor condone anything, that emphasises religioius differences among the students.


You don't have to show that atheism is valid or scientific to have these rights. So don't waste ink, and don't get the teachers' backs up, by arguingthe validity of any religious position.

[Richard1366]

Agemegos had it right. How many of the other teachers in the school are doing the same thing, and how many students, unlike your son are afraid to say anything. It's a public school, god/s is/are not welcome there. Make sure the principal understands that.

[rain]

I agree.....I'm recently retired from a 31 year career in teaching. The principal should be made aware of this serious breach of good sense .

[OneWayTraffic]

Welcome to IIDB Rain!

[rain]

Why, Thank you 'OneWayTraffic'...how courteous!

[zorq]

Agemegos had it right. How many of the other teachers in the school are doing the same thing, and how many students, unlike your son are afraid to say anything. It's a public school, god/s is/are not welcome there. Make sure the principal understands that.
That's not quite what the law mandates.
God/s should not be invited in to schools by the staff or administration. Kids are free to invite their superstitions in and practice them privately whenever it is not disruptive to anyone else.

[NoWay]

Oh yeah, you mispelled 'peers'

Sorry, I can't resist this. You misspelled "misspelled." :devil3:

(But I agree with your message.)

[MonCapitan2002]

I was reminded that I hadn't responded to the outcome of this soooo, here it is.

A couple of days after my letter went to the teacher, I received a response in my sons daily planner. (I'm guessing it took longer because she didn't know how to handle such a thing.) I was rather upset about the action taken, but there is not much more I could've done anyway. You'll see what I mean.

The response read:
"Thanks for the letter and keeping me informed. Your concerns and consideration will be considered in the future. Thanks"

.......................Huh? Makes me feel really comforted that this woman is teaching my son his entire second grade year. I suspect this is just a way to blow me off politely.
A special gingerbread man was remade, by her, with star buttons on the front instead of the slogan……… I should have demanded they be recalled for the entire class. MonCapitan2002 may have been correct about not being strong enough.

That was it though. She’ll probably never run into another atheist child during her career, so I won’t be surprised if next year there is a stack of……“god made�……. Paper gingerbread ornaments on their way to the minds of defenseless children.
Well it turns out I was right. What a surprise. The bitch should have had her feet put to the fire.

[Hazy Daisy]

I'm coming into this thread late, but... I pretty much agree with MonCapitan. That teacher was way out of line, and I wouldn't trust any school system in Florida to handle this satisfactorily. I would have taken it straight to the ACLU. I'd rather err on the side of what some of you call "overreacting" than let a clear instance of the breach of separation of church and state go unchallenged.

[Bright Life]

Florida schools aren't all like this. It's like anywhere. You have good teachers and idiot teachers, plus a bunch in between. I think the nice approach was best to start. Of course, that non-reply does merit a trip to the principal's office.

[MonCapitan2002]

I'm coming into this thread late, but... I pretty much agree with MonCapitan. That teacher was way out of line, and I wouldn't trust any school system in Florida to handle this satisfactorily. I would have taken it straight to the ACLU. I'd rather err on the side of what some of you call "overreacting" than let a clear instance of the breach of separation of church and state go unchallenged.
Were I in that situation, the first two things I would have done was contact a lawyer and the ACLU. The third thing would have been to send a cease and desist letter to the school's administration.

[SaguaroJen]

Wow.....Okay, leaning toward more action…. My next concern though, as well as my wifes, is that my son will be flagged or black-booked for the rest of his elementary years as the 'evil atheist kid'. The talk of the teacher town.

SaguaroJen, being a teacher yourself, do you think this is something I should worry about?

I don't want my son to be emotionally scarred or socially shunned because his parents made a stink of some silly ginger-bread project in the second grade.
Yes, that is most certainly a legitimate worry – and should be your priority. You know your son, you know his confidence level but it's more complicated than that. You also need to know a bit about the principal, the teachers, and your child's friends.

My own son is confident about his lack of gods, his friends would stand by him (except one who would walk away but would not be vindictive), the teachers would never say a word to the students but might chat about with each other in it's-too-bad-but-no big-deal way, and the principal would put a quick end to the stupidity of the offending teacher with a sincere apology. But that's our school situation. Yours might be very different. You also might not be in a position to know all that I do since I teach in my son's school.

A more guarded approach would be to not offer - and refuse to answer - any questions about your beliefs. Instead the matter could be handled matter-of-factly with the principal by simply asking if the teacher's actions are within school policy or not. I'm really hoping that the principal is just unaware of what's going on - disciplinary action should be taken against the principal if s/he knew and did nothing about it. Maybe the ideal way would be to mention it off-hand to the principal and not give him/her the impression that you're the least bit concerned, just ho-hum wondering and so nice to bump into him/her today. Given that time has passed since incident, it might be easier to make light of it with the principal and see what happens.

You and your wife are right to put the feelings of your son first. It's impossible to say for certain what might happen. Maybe your son would learn so much from the experience that he'll be a secular Martin Luther King one day. Maybe your family would feel it necessary to move away. You don't fight injustices at the expense of your child but you don't allow your child to think that the world can walk all over him without speaking up about it. Your son needs to know that his teacher is making a mistake – and he should be involved in the decision about whether or not he wants to be a part of fixing that mistake. He’s a little young but a chat about the possible repercussions might make sense to him.

Jen

[RidingtheScree]

It's too strong and confrontational, in my opinion

yes, no need to try to breed understanding with a bayonete... Usually that is the role of the mob against the living effigy :rolling: