Does Ba'hai qualify as NARP even though it contains elements of ARP?

[perfectbite]

Perhaps someone here is Ba'hai and could tell us.

[Dharma]

Perhaps someone here is Ba'hai and could tell us.

I guess anyone who gets persecuted by the ARP (including sufis) belong in the NARP.:huh:

[Chili]

I guess anyone who gets persecuted by the ARP (including sufis) belong in the NARP.:huh:


There you go: Catholics are NARP for two reasons.

[David B]

There you go: Catholics are NARP for two reasons.

Hmm, another way of looking at it would be that Catholicism is an ARP that has done more than its share of persecuting NARPS.

I'm happy to consider Bahai as a NARP, though, on the limited basis of what I know of it.

David B

[Agemegos]

I guess anyone who gets persecuted by the ARP (including sufis) belong in the NARP.:huh:

Then since all the ARPs have been persecuted by other ARPs, all religions would be NARPs.

If you ask me, Ba'hai is a General Religion.

[Yeshi]

I guess anyone who gets persecuted by the ARP (including sufis) belong in the NARP.:huh:

why, i persecute Chili by having him on ignore, but he is still around to preach about virgin mary and the like and explain buddhism with crucifixion and whatnot? Soon he will have us self-flaggelating for not accepting his truths
:Cheeky:

[Chili]

I was going to suggest that our "beeds" are a form of Yoga with the Divine mysteries our mantra to contemplate but really just wanted to tell you that Mary should be spelled with a capital M.

[Grizzly]

I guess anyone who gets persecuted by the ARP (including sufis) belong in the NARP.:huh:

LOL - I don't think persecution is a means of deciding what's Abrahamic and what's not.

After reading a couple of websites about Ba'hai, I would tentitively call it an Abrahamic religion. They seem to acknowledge a single God, and recognize Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed as prophets (or manifestations) of this God.

But I could probably be convinced otherwise...

[Dharma]

Then since all the ARPs have been persecuted by other ARPs, all religions would be NARPs.

If you ask me, Ba'hai is a General Religion.

I don't hear the protestants or muslims knocking on our door anytime soon.

However, the catholics have been branded as "idol worshipping, blood and flesh eating cannibals who worship Mary the mother of God heathen infidels" by many Protestant and Messianic Christians as well as Muslims.

So it is confusing what to do with them.

:)

[Chili]

I don't hear the protestants or muslims knocking on our door anytime soon.

They'll have nothing to say if they come excepts a string of duh's , maybe.

However, the catholics have been branded as "idol worshipping, blood and flesh eating cannibals who worship Mary the mother of God heathen infidels" by many Protestant and Messianic Christians as well as Muslims.

So it is confusing what to do with them.

:)

They are our untouchables with no "ideals" to worship of which idols are the icon.

[perfectbite]

Actually the Ba'hais also reference Matreiya Buddha and, I believe, Zoroaster and Rama and Brahma amongst others. You name it, it's in there somewhere.

It is a polyglot religion.

[Revolutionary]

Since they recognize Abraham as a father of faith or whatever, then no. It's Abrahamic.

[Chili]

Since they recognize Abraham as a father of faith or whatever, then no. It's Abrahamic.

Exactly and Catholics do not recognize Abraham as father of their faith. Catholicism as a religion is like a wheel barrow that is bought and paid for with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[Revolutionary]

Exactly and Catholics do not recognize Abraham as father of their faith. Catholicism as a religion is like a wheel barrow that is bought and paid for with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.That's not what I said. I said a father of faith, not the father of their faith. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Bahá'i all recognize Abraham's covenant with YHWH, even if it was corrupted, superseded, or whatever.

EDIT: I know that the I in Bahá'i should have another accent, but the system won't display it properly, unlike á. Very strange.

[Chili]

Sorry and yes, but Buddhism also does recognize Abraham as the father of Judaism, and so do Catholics, just as we recognize Buddha to be the father/ founder of Buddishm --unless you want to tell me that Buddhism is a royal accident.

[premjan]

Bahaism is Islamic/Sufi in origin hence more or less (heterodox) Abrahamic.

[Revolutionary]

Sorry and yes, but Buddhism also does recognize Abraham as the father of Judaism, and so do Catholics, just as we recognize Buddha to be the father/ founder of Buddishm --unless you want to tell me that Buddhism is a royal accident.I'm not sure what you're ultimately arguing for. Are you saying that Bahá'i isn't Abrahamic? How do you make the distinction between what is and what isn't?

[Chili]

I'm not sure what you're ultimately arguing for.

Catholicism being a NARP for two reason:

1. According to Dharma's definition above
2. According to the lineage given in Luke that takes us past Abraham, past Adam back to God = original.

I really don't argue for a specific purpose but just found Dharma's qualification for a NARP interesting.

[Philippe*]

Here is a house of worship in New Dehli

http://bahai-puerto-rico.org/photos/lotus_full04.jpg

I want to see so many things, but maybe I will visit it during my trip in India. I have never taken some time to study more about Bahai, and it seems to be yet another religious system, but I have a lot in common with the basic lines. Nevertheless I think there are interesting elements.

Concerning the abrahamic title, it can be said that the Baha'i faith has abrahamic elements but we can not simply establish that it is just abrahamic since it refers to prophets who didn't claim to be in the vein of abrahamic heritage, it seems that abrahamic is not sufficient to define this religion.

Philippe

[Dharma]

Sorry and yes, but Buddhism also does recognize Abraham as the father of Judaism, and so do Catholics, just as we recognize Buddha to be the father/ founder of Buddishm --unless you want to tell me that Buddhism is a royal accident.


Buddha wasn't a "father" of anything nor did he 'found' a new institution. Buddha is one Buddha in a long line of Buddhas who revived a long forgotten institution. Catholicism couldn't understand the circular nature of time, neither do Abrahamics -- primitive as always.:rolleyes:

[Chili]

Yes I was trying to be very careful not to call it a religion but if you call it an institution don't tell me that this institution was the long lost accident in need of revival. Buddhism has an origen and a Genesis that begs for rivival in time.

It's great and much older than Catholicism.

[Dharma]

Yes I was trying to be very careful not to call it a religion but if you call it an institution don't tell me that this institution was the long lost accident in need of revival. Buddhism has an origen and a Genesis that begs for rivival in time.

It's great and much older than Catholicism.

It doesn't beg for revival, it just comes about. The world is a bubble, it's not here...we forget and get mired in our worries and troubles -- we suffer a collective amnesia as to who we are.

So then Buddhism is the mirror in which we see our minds reflection.

Buddha and the Four Noble truths are the self referential, self reflecting mirror of our minds allowing us to see reality for what it truly is. Seeing our own true reflection in ourselves, we break free from delusion.

[Chili]

So then Buddhism is the mirror in which we see our minds reflection.

That's interesting, from heaven we look down upon it as if it was a thing of the past.

Buddha and the Four Noble truths are the self referential, self reflecting mirror of our minds allowing us to see reality for what it truly is. Seeing our own true reflection in ourselves, we break free from delusion.

I see, we only have one of those and that is "I am all that I am."

[Dharma]

That's interesting, from heaven we look down upon it as if it was a thing of the past.

I see, we only have one of those and that is "I am all that I am."

Yes, heaven is a primitive place to be according to Buddhists, and the Christian heavens are even more primitive, they would be stuck in erroneous concepts of time.:)

[perfectbite]

Here is a house of worship in New Dehli

http://bahai-puerto-rico.org/photos/lotus_full04.jpg

I want to see so many things, but maybe I will visit it during my trip in India. I have never taken some time to study more about Bahai, and it seems to be yet another religious system, but I have a lot in common with the basic lines. Nevertheless I think there are interesting elements.

Concerning the abrahamic title, it can be said that the Baha'i faith has abrahamic elements but we can not simply establish that it is just abrahamic since it refers to prophets who didn't claim to be in the vein of abrahamic heritage, it seems that abrahamic is not sufficient to define this religion.

Philippe

Well, even if they are ARP based, they have really good taste in architecture.

I wonder what the nine point star and the nine leafed lotus motif represents?

[Philippe*]

Well, even if they are ARP based, they have really good taste in architecture.

I wonder what the nine point star and the nine leafed lotus motif represents?

Here are some infos...

About the symbolism of the lotus for this house of worship :

The discussion above serves to show how the lotus has been used as a unifying symbol in all the Indian religions. In the design of the Baha'i House of Worship, however, the symbol has been employed in an unprecedented fashion. The most basic idea in the design is that light and water are used as its two fundamental elements, and that these two elements alone are responsible for the ornamentation of the House of Worship in place of the thousands of statues and carvings to be found in other temples.

http://www.bahaindia.org/temple/jewel.html

About the nine pointed star :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9c/Bahaistar.jpg/170px-Bahaistar.jpg

The most commonly used symbol is the 9 pointed star. No particular design is more desirable than others, as long as it has 9 points.

The significance of the number "nine" comes from several sources. One of the sacred languages of the Bahá'ê holy texts is Arabic, whose alphabet can be used to represent numbers, attaching a numerical value to words. The numerical value of Bahá’ is 9.

The word Bahá’ (Arabic بهاء) is the root word for Bahá'ê, Bahá'u'lláh, and Yá Bahá'ul 'Abhá. Bahá'u'lláh often referred to Bahá'ês in his writings as "the people of Bahá’", and in addition, the Báb sent a tablet to Bahá'u'lláh with 360 derivatives of the word Bahá’, fulfilling a Shi'i Muslim tradition that the Promised One would reveal the secret "hundredth name of God".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_symbols

Philippe

[River]

Here is a house of worship in New Dehli

http://bahai-puerto-rico.org/photos/lotus_full04.jpg


Concerning the abrahamic title, it can be said that the Baha'i faith has abrahamic elements but we can not simply establish that it is just abrahamic since it refers to prophets who didn't claim to be in the vein of abrahamic heritage, it seems that abrahamic is not sufficient to define this religion.

Philippe


But Islam seems to do that as well i.e ( Source Qur'an)

Dhul-Kifl (Buddha?)
Dhul-Qurnain ( Cyrus the Great?)
Khidr ( the Green man)

Kohan? (Krisna?) (Source Hadith)

also the Qur'an mentions other mysterious characters such as As-Samiri ("the Sumerian")


So is Islam a NARP?

-River

[Philippe*]

But Islam seems to do that as well i.e ( Source Qur'an)

Dhul-Kifl (Buddha?)
Dhul-Qurnain ( Cyrus the Great?)
Khidr ( the Green man)

Kohan? (Krisna?) (Source Hadith)

also the Qur'an mentions other mysterious characters such as As-Samiri ("the Sumerian")


So is Islam a NARP?

-River

Actually I didn't say that the Bahai faith was NARP, I don't think so. But telling that it is just abrahamic is not sufficient. Otherwise can you tell us whether the people you have mentioned above are considered as prophets of God in Islam ? If so, in which traditions ? That seems interesting, I didn't know. On the other hand in the Bahai faith, there is a clear connection, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster are officially recognized as prophets of God without falling in some "heretic" agenda.

Philippe

[premjan]

What is the system for conversion of letters/words into numbers (e.g. baha=9) in Arabic?

[Philippe*]

What is the system for conversion of letters/words into numbers (e.g. baha=9) in Arabic?

I don't know. I have never been very interested in numerology and these kinds of stuffs. I don't know whether it remains more or less just symbolic or whether it is even more important with an esoteric sense (power of numbers) like with Pythagoricians for instance.

Philippe

[southernhybrid]

I was married to a Bahai for nine years and most of my friends were also Bahais during that period of my life. They would not classify themselves as Abrahamic as they believe that all the major religions are revealed by god, but they are progressive in nature. They believe that their religion is the most recent manifestation from god and it will be at least 1000 years before the next revealed religion appears. It differs from the Abrahamic religions in many ways, including having a far less vindictive god, no nasty type hell and it places much more emphasis on the positive aspects of humanity. It doesn't try to put guilt on people, and tolerates other religions. Bahais also are given concientious objector status by the US government. That hardly sounds like an Abrahamic religion. :D It's more of a blended religion, you might say.

You could argue that is it a Abrahamic religion, since it appears to me like it was an attempt to branch off and make the religion of Islam more humanistic and progressive. That is not however the way Bahais perceive of their religion. I don't usually read this forum, but I saw the word Bahai and couldn't resist putting in my two sense. Hope it helped a little bit.

[River]

Actually I didn't say that the Bahai faith was NARP, I don't think so. But telling that it is just abrahamic is not sufficient. Otherwise can you tell us whether the people you have mentioned above are considered as prophets of God in Islam ? If so, in which traditions ? That seems interesting, I didn't know. On the other hand in the Bahai faith, there is a clear connection, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster are officially recognized as prophets of God without falling in some "heretic" agenda.

Philippe


Islam actually has a very direct connection with non-Abrahamic Prophets

Thus, I feel that Bahais are being somewhat redundant, capitalizing on an

idea that is inherent to Islam


here are some links that explicate "Buddha" of the Qur'an

http://www.geocities.com/sgumsa/nazari.htm

http://www.encyclopedia-online.info/Dhul-Kifl


Here is a possible mention of "Krishna" in the Hadith, ( whose alternate name

is Kahanya)

"There was a prophet of Allah in India who was dark in color and his name was Kahan."

كان �?ي الهند نبّيا اشود اللون اسمه كاهنا

Notes: "Taarikh-i-Hamdaan Dailami" Baab-ul-Kaaf. See Pocket book p: 854 by Malik Abdur Rehman Khadim 6th edition Published in 1952


The Qur'an defines atleast 5 Peoples of the Book or Ahlul Kitab:

1)Judaism- their Prophets, Moses and Jacob are mentioned in the Qur'an

2)Sabeanism- their Prophet John the Baptist is recognized by the Qur'an

3)Christianity-their Prophet Jesus Christ is recognized by the Qur'an

4)Islam- their Prophets Adam and Prophet Ahmad ( synonym Muhammad) are

recognized by Qur'an

You will also notice that "Magianism/Zoroastrianism" is also recognized by the

Qur'an thus by logical extension ......the Prophet connected to the creed of

Zoroastrianism should theoretically be accepted.


Similarly, Muslim scholars acknowledge another Zoroastrian Prophet as their

own i.e Dhul-Qarnain. Dhul-Qurnain is believed to be either Cyrus or Darrius

according to modern Muslim scholars. The belief that Dhul-Qarnain is

Alexander the Great is somewhat antiquated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulqarneyn


Islam is the most comprehensive religion or Deen recognizing

124,000 Prophets and 315 Messengers across time and space

The Qur'an says:

"And, indeed We have sent Rusul (Messengers) before you; of some of them We have related to you their story; and of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Rasul (Messenger) that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. So, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with Truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost." Qur'an, Sura 40:78

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا ر�?س�?لًا مّ�?ن قَبْل�?كَ م�?نْه�?م مَّن قَصَصْنَا عَلَيْكَ وَم�?نْه�?م مَّن لَّمْ نَقْص�?صْ عَلَيْكَ وَمَا كَانَ ل�?رَس�?ول�? أَنْ يَأْت�?يَ ب�?آيَة�? إ�?لَّا ب�?إ�?ذْن�? اللَّه�? �?َإ�?ذَا جَاء أَمْر�? اللَّه�? ق�?ض�?يَ ب�?الْتَقّ�? وَخَس�?رَ ه�?نَال�?كَ الْم�?بْط�?ل�?ونَ

“And Rusul (Messengers) We have mentioned to you before, and Rusul (Messengers) We have not mentioned to you - and to Musa (Moses) Allah spoke directly�? Qur'an, Sura 4:164


وَر�?س�?لاً قَدْ قَصَصْنَاه�?مْ عَلَيْكَ م�?ن قَبْل�? وَر�?س�?لاً لَّمْ نَقْص�?صْه�?مْ عَلَيْكَ وَكَلَّمَ اللّه�? م�?وسَى تَكْل�?يمًا

The Green Man or Khidr is found within the pages of the Qur'an but is most

emphasized in Sufi-Islamic literature

This is a great source for all things related to Al-Khidr

http://khidr.org/


-River

[River]

I think Islam has been given a bad wrap for being cold and intolerant

yet this is not the religion of

Islam but the dictatorship of modern "Muslim" leaders

Lets take a look at the love that is found within Islam ( which the

system of Bahaii borrowed and claimed as being exclusive

to their own)


Islam is a universal religion that is accepting of all true Prophets and religions

that preceded ...... Islam is the last revealed path of G-d


These are taken from Hadith Qudsi , which are the highest priority hadiths

found within all of Islam:

Hadith Qudsi 1:


On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said:

When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.

It was related by Muslim (also by al-Bukhari, an-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah).

Hadith Qudsi 15:

On the authority of Abu Harayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (PBUH) said: Allah the Almighty said:
I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.
(1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.
It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah).


Hadith Qudsi 34:

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) say: Allah the Almighty said:
O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it. It was related by at-Tirmidhi (also by Ahmad ibn Hanbal). Its chain of authorities is sound.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/hadithqudsi.html

---------------------------------------------------------------

As you can clearly see Islam emphasizes G-d's mercy over his wrath. Tashbih

and Tanzih, Yin and Yang. Yet the media shows Islam as being oppressive and

backwarded. The media as well as New Agers are also showing Sufism as

being loving and merciful and divorced from Islam......yet Sufism is interweaved with Islam. Sufism is the

heart and Spirit of Islam. Sufism is Islam. There is NO difference

between classical Sufism and Islam and no serious scholar or historian

would disagree.



-River

I hope this helps.

[Chili]

وَر�?س�?لاً قَدْ قَصَصْنَاه�?مْ عَلَيْكَ م�?ن قَبْل�? وَر�?س�?لاً لَّمْ نَقْص�?صْه�?مْ عَلَيْكَ وَكَلَّمَ اللّه�? م�?وسَى تَكْل�?يمًا


-River

Thanks for your contribution River. Not that I care but you seem to know a lot about it.

Can you actually read that writing?

[Philippe*]

Islam actually has a very direct connection with non-Abrahamic Prophets

Thus, I feel that Bahais are being somewhat redundant, capitalizing on an

idea that is inherent to Islam

...


-River

Thanks River for this contribution. I didn't know Islam refers to non-abrahamic prophets.

Philippe

[Chili]

Yes, heaven is a primitive place to be according to Buddhists, and the Christian heavens are even more primitive, they would be stuck in erroneous concepts of time.:)

The Christians haven't got a clue.

Of one tone are wide waters and sky,
A lone goose flying in the mist.

[lpetrich]

Thanks River for this contribution. I didn't know Islam refers to non-abrahamic prophets.Sorry to have to burst this wonderful bubble, but the references River showed us are almost impossibly vague. Consider
"There was a prophet of Allah in India who was dark in color and his name was Kahan."
Dark skin is not exactly unusual in India, so I fail to see how this points to anyone in particular.

And as to Dhul-Kifl, the references are too vague and lacking in detail. By comparison, the biography of St. Josaphat contains enough detail to reveal its resemblance to the Buddha's biography. River, if you disagree, I challenge you to prove me wrong -- from the original sources, find detail on Dhul-Kifl comparable to that on St. Josaphat.

[premjan]

oddly enough as the Persians may have been responsible for the name "Hindu" I think the Hindus may have been responsible for the name "Arab" as they were the main trading partners of the Arabs (especially the horses and spices) for a long time. I think Arab means "west" so it is plausible that this refers to "west of e.g. India".

I think it is plausible that Muhammad knew about Indian practices, especially as Krishna was a bit of a combination of Muhammad and Jesus: a war general and prophet who, however, refrained from lifting the arms himself, and preached love rather than obedience (and died like Achilles at the end of his endeavor).

Kishan is a common name for Krishna. Perhaps there is some reason why Arabs would abbreviate this to Kahan.

[River]

Sorry to have to burst this wonderful bubble, but the references River showed us are almost impossibly vague. Consider

Dark skin is not exactly unusual in India, so I fail to see how this points to anyone in particular.

And as to Dhul-Kifl, the references are too vague and lacking in detail. By comparison, the biography of St. Josaphat contains enough detail to reveal its resemblance to the Buddha's biography. River, if you disagree, I challenge you to prove me wrong -- from the original sources, find detail on Dhul-Kifl comparable to that on St. Josaphat.


1) Perhaps as nebulous as many of your proposed hypotheses

2)"Dark skin" wasn't the key point. The key word was "Kahan". There are also

some individuals with radiant blue skin in India...but thats beside the

point.

3) Perhaps St. Josaphat=Dhul-Kifl ?


-River

[lpetrich]

1) Perhaps as nebulous as many of your proposed hypothesesI'm not sure what you mean.

2)"Dark skin" wasn't the key point. The key word was "Kahan". There are also some individuals with radiant blue skin in India...but thats beside the point.Who in India has radiant blue skin??? And while we're at it, who elsewhere in the world has skin with that color???

And what's with the name "Kahan"?

3) Perhaps St. Josaphat=Dhul-Kifl ?What are the primary sources on Dhul-Kifl and what do they say? I want their words, not some interpretation of them.

[premjan]

I think there are some people someplace that use indigo to dye their skin blue. Though I think bright blue was just a metaphor for divine in Indian iconography anyway (sort of like a halo).

[kalchiran]

oddly enough as the Persians may have been responsible for the name "Hindu" I think the Hindus may have been responsible for the name "Arab" as they were the main trading partners of the Arabs (especially the horses and spices) for a long time. I think Arab means "west" so it is plausible that this refers to "west of e.g. India".

I think it is plausible that Muhammad knew about Indian practices, especially as Krishna was a bit of a combination of Muhammad and Jesus: a war general and prophet who, however, refrained from lifting the arms himself, and preached love rather than obedience (and died like Achilles at the end of his endeavor).

The word ARAB is from the sanskrit word ARVA meaning horses. ARVASTHAN means land of horses.

[premjan]

The only confusing thing about that is that "Asva" is also horse. So is it actually "Asva" or "Arva"?

[kalchiran]

they are synonyms

[Booko]

Perhaps someone here is Ba'hai and could tell us.

OK, well I wandered into this forum pretty late to answer this, but what the heck, I'll answer it anyway.

The Baha'i Faith is both an ARP and NARP religion.

I noticed someone in a later post mention that we're a polyglot religion -- I assume by that you mean syncretistic? If so, that's a fairly common misconception.

[River]

I think Islam is a NARP and an ARP for the following reasons ....


1) Khidr ( The Green Man)

2)" Dhul-Kifl " translates literally " Double possessor of Kapeel" ( perhaps Siddarth?)

3) Dhul-Qarnain " Double horned One" (Darrius or Cyrus)

4) Faana ( Nirvana).

5) Hadith mention of an Indian Prophet named Kahan ( perhaps Krisna/Krishan/Kahanai)

6) Islaam uses the Kashmiri/Tibeten name of Jesus Christ ( "Issa" or "Issar") rather than

the arab name of Jesus ( "Yasu" or "Joshua")

[Booko]

I think Islam is a NARP and an ARP for the following reasons ....


1) Khidr ( The Green Man)

2)" Dhul-Kifl " translates literally " Double possessor of Kapeel" ( perhaps Siddarth?)

3) Dhul-Qarnain " Double horned One" (Darrius or Cyrus)

4) Faana ( Nirvana).

5) Hadith mention of an Indian Prophet named Kahan ( perhaps Krisna/Krishan/Kahanai)

6) Islaam uses the Kashmiri/Tibeten name of Jesus Christ ( "Issa" or "Issar") rather than

the arab name of Jesus ( "Yasu" or "Joshua")


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Islam recognize Zoroaster as a prophet?

Your reference to Darius and Cyrus reminded me of that.

[River]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Islam recognize Zoroaster as a prophet?

Your reference to Darius and Cyrus reminded me of that.


Its an implicit but logical deduction that Zoroaster is one of Islam's

124,000 Prophets based on the following reasoning:

The Qur'an defines atleast 5 Peoples of the Book or Ahlul Kitab:

1)Judaism- their Prophets, Moses and Jacob are mentioned in the Qur'an

2)Sabeanism- their Prophet John the Baptist is recognized by the Qur'an

3)Christianity-their Prophet Jesus Christ is recognized by the Qur'an

4)Islam- their Prophets Adam and Prophet Ahmad ( synonym Muhammad) are

recognized by Qur'an

You will notice that "Magianism/Zoroastrianism" is also recognized by the

Qur'an (i.e People of the Book or "Ahlul Kitaab'" )thus by logical extension ......the Prophet connected to the creed of

Zoroastrianism should theoretically be accepted.

[Booko]

Its an implicit but logical deduction that Zoroaster is one of Islam's

124,000 Prophets based on the following reasoning:

The Qur'an defines atleast 5 Peoples of the Book or Ahlul Kitab:

1)Judaism- their Prophets, Moses and Jacob are mentioned in the Qur'an

2)Sabeanism- their Prophet John the Baptist is recognized by the Qur'an

3)Christianity-their Prophet Jesus Christ is recognized by the Qur'an

4)Islam- their Prophets Adam and Prophet Ahmad ( synonym Muhammad) are

recognized by Qur'an

You will notice that "Magianism/Zoroastrianism" is also recognized by the

Qur'an (i.e People of the Book or "Ahlul Kitaab'" )thus by logical extension ......the Prophet connected to the creed of

Zoroastrianism should theoretically be accepted.


Thanks, River. I only dimly remember reading that years ago, but could not at all remember the reasoning behind it.

[jdeverse]

Hello all and good day. As a Baha’i I will do my humble best to answer the questions of this forum. I may get a little of tangent, but will try to stay focused on the target. Is the Baha’i Faith an Abrahamic Religion, or not? I would say that although you will find aspects of all the divinely revealed religions in the Faith of Baha’u’llah, it is not classifiable as being Abrahamic or otherwise. In fact, from the Baha’i view, no religion is considered as being of separate influence. This view is that there is only one religion, revealed progressively from God, tailored to the conditions and capacity of the people, to administer the divine medicine needed to advance or strengthen human beings on the long journey to their inevitable unity.

All things move in cycles and the same is of religion. The most difficult period in our history has been the Adamic cycle. Bahai’s believe that Adam was a manifestation of God, a separate creation from humanity whose perfectly polished mirror is able to fully reflect the brilliance and Glory of God. Adam was the first of these messengers to bring the knowledge of the “One Abstract” God, where previously God was understood and worshiped as the forces of nature and in the female form. This cycle has been extremely difficult and destructive, because with the revealing of higher “names” of God come greater power and tests. The purpose of the manifestation is two-fold: to reveal the will and knowledge of the creator that will best advance the human civilization, and to release a regenerative and creative energy that uplifts our capacity. This means our capacity for both good and evil is increased, which is why recognizing God’s messengers in their day and cleaving to their word is so important.

They have always been sent to advance not only our spiritual reality, but our physical as well. The material world is like a matrix that must manifest the hidden spiritual realities that sustain it – just like the hidden powerhouse of energy of a magma chamber will manifest itself on the surface as a volcano. The real force is hidden, but there is a sign to see. The reason that I have explained this is that even when men may have had tails and climbed in trees, God has sent his manifestations to upgrade our capacity and then the physical form will on its journey from imperfection to perfection change.
The other manifestations or messengers of God in the Adamic Cycle include Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, and the herald of Baha’u'llah the B'ab (Gate). The order of the Adamic cycle is shown perfectly in the book of revelation as Christ addresses the seven churches

Ephesus – Sabianism, the religion of Adam (Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent……To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.)

Smyrna – the religion of Abraham and Moses (behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days) – the ten years of 1935 -1945

Pergamos – the religion of Krishna (wherein Antipas”Buddha” was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you….I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols)

Thyatira – the religion of Zoroaster(I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols) – the decent of the religion into materialism and polytheistic Mithraism…..
“And I will give him the morning star” ( reference to the B'ab)

Sardis – the religion of Buddha (thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead) – The denial of God and the idea that anyone can become a Buddha (joining partners with God)
“How can there be the created and formed without the uncreated and unformed” – Buddha “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy” – those of Sardis that believe in the return.

Philadelphia – the religion of Christ (I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name) – the weakness is in reference to the incredible divisions and splits in Christianity.

Laodiceans - the religion of Muhammad (thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked) – Muhammad is the seal of the prophets, the last to prophecy of the coming day of God and therefore much was expected of his followers. This is why the wording is so harsh.

In the Baha’i writings the B'ab is referred to as the primal point, the pivot if you will, between the completion of the Adamic cycle which has lasted 10,000 years to the new cycle inaugurated by Baha’u’llah that will last 500,000 years.
The purpose of each manifestation’s mission has been different, but their inner reality is the same. Any difference perceived in their ability or message is dependant on how much of their Glory they veil from the eyes of human beings.
Krishna and Buddha brought “self” knowledge and the virtue of selfless acts. The teachings of Christ and Zoroaster exemplified the golden rule and the family. Moses and Muhammad engaged in nation building, and finally today Baha’u’llah’s revelation will unite the Earth.

Notice that even as the Baha’i faith is still in the stage of obscurity the principles set forth by Baha’u’llah’s revelation are reshaping the world. In 1863 in the Garden of Ridvan outside of Baghdad preceding his exile to Constantinople Baha’u’llah declared that he recreated every atom and infused it with a new and fresh capacity. The equilibrium of the world was re-aligned and wherever men resisted the new reality, the consequences were and are terrible. These main principles are: The ones of mankind and the elimination of all prejudice, the ones of religion and God, the equality of men and women, the harmony of science and religion, the independent investigation of truth, universal compulsory education, a spiritual solution to economic problems (elimination of the extremes of poverty and wealth), a universal auxiliary language, and universal peace upheld by a world government. The amazing aspect of these ideas is that they were written from the most great prison city of Akka in a land known for its perversity and ignorance.

What I was trying to demonstrate is that all religions are one and can not be separated into different categories. The differences are a result of the necessities and capacity of the people of the time. One fine example of this is the contrast in the view of creation between the book of Genesis and the teachings of Buddha. The story of creation expressed in Genesis tells a simple story of the struggle between our higher and lower nature. Deeper meanings are however veiled in that story and a careful and sincere reading of Baha’u’llah’s Kitabiqan (The Book of Certitude – the work that unseals the books of the past) and then a re-reading of Genesis will reveal countless gems.
In contrast here is Buddha’s take on creation. "An instantaneous product or emanation from the Absolute" and as an eternal process where all things are subject to constant change. Hence, while creation may be in a constant state of flux, according to regulatory principles of its own organization, yet its intrinsic reality, since it is a product of the Eternal, is not subject to annihilation.
It is obvious that the people to whom Buddha came were of a higher spiritual capacity than other peoples whom God guided near that time.

Baha’u’llah has come with manifold proofs fulfilling the prophecies of the Lord of Hosts of the old testament, the Tenth Avatar of Hinduism, the Buddha Maitreya, The spirit of truth and the comforter in the new testament, and finally the Al- Mahdi" (the Guided One), Al-Qa'im" (the One who Rises), Sahibul Zaman" (Lord of the Age) in the Muslim religion.

I’m including a picture of the Baha’i shrines on Mount Carmel in Haifa, Israel and one particular prophecy comes to mind. “It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the Glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (King James Bible, Isaiah) The Baha’i administration and the Shrine of the B’ab are on Mount Carmel and Baha’u’llah means the “Glory of God”.

I hope I did not bore all of you too much, if there are any questions I will do by best to answer them.

Take care

Justin.
http://www.flightvideoproductions.com/post%20pics/arc2.s.JPG
http://www.flightvideoproductions.com/post%20pics/bab_terraces_wide.s.JPG
http://www.flightvideoproductions.com/post%20pics/shrine%20of%20bab.jpg
http://www.flightvideoproductions.com/post%20pics/terraces_city.s.JPG

[perfectbite]

I think there are some people someplace that use indigo to dye their skin blue. Though I think bright blue was just a metaphor for divine in Indian iconography anyway (sort of like a halo).

The very early Brits, the Picts, used to use woad to dye themselves blue all over before they went into battle wearing only woad.

[perfectbite]

Thank you Justin. That was a labour of love.

Baha'i architecture is inspiring.

I do have two questions;

What is the form of the universal auxiliary language? Is it in use anywhere?

What is the form of Baha'i's pastoral leadership?

[Booko]

Thank you Justin. That was a labour of love.

Baha'i architecture is inspiring.

If you're ever in Chicago, it's worth the short trip to Wilmette to see the House of Worship there. The only way I know to describe the place is "white concrete lacework."

I do have two questions;

What is the form of the universal auxiliary language? Is it in use anywhere?


I'll take a stab at the questions, since I'm here.

Baha'u'llah taught that humanity should adopt a universal auxiliary language. Whether it was invented or an existing language didn't matter. That was in the mid-1800s.

I don't think that the Baha'i were every to be directly involved in choosing any such langauge -- it would be for all humanity to do that by consensus.

If I were a betting woman, it's probably going to be English.

What is the form of Baha'i's pastoral leadership?

We have no clergy, but are organized around elected bodies of 9 members each. They exist at the local, national, and the one at the global levels. The elections are held yearly for the national and local bodies, and while it is a democratic form of election, there's nothing about it we'd recognize as political. No nominations, no campaigning, nothing like that. The global body, the Universal House of Justice, is elected every 5 years by current members of the national bodies.

The other arm of the faith is purely advisory, and consists of appointees. They exist at continental and regional levels, and are appointed for their scholarship and good judgement. They have no authority at all.

Well, that's the Reader's Digest version, anyway. If you want any more detail on how things work, just ask. I pop in occasionally to do a bit of reading on this forum.

[perfectbite]

My in-laws made sure I saw Wilmette's Baha'i temple over thirty years ago, it was quite the tourist attraction.

As I said, Bahai's architecture is inspiring and unforgettable.

I have no wish to join the Baha'i faith although I do wish it well.

(Although I wish the individual members of all religions well I must be honest and say that I find it almost impossible to wish some religions as a whole well; Jehovah's Witness for instance.)

Out of idle curiosity, what is the Baha'i form of worship? Who leads it? Is it folks sitting around with long faces waiting for something to happen or is there laughter and pizza and beer (or at least lemonade) after the service?

[aupmanyav]

Naturally, nine religions that Bahai would like to appropriate, just by accepting in name of those who are revered in their own religions. Why is a partiality shown to Krishna, what about Shiva or Rama? Architecture is the only thing done well by them. They must be asking a lot of money from their adherents. Islam also claims to be the original religion of the world. It accepts 125,000 prophets, all welcome, room for many, Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Adam, Moses, Jesus, John, Soloman, David, you name it. Of course, Muhammad was the seal of prophets. In this case, it is Bahaullah. These are not the only two, you have Ahmadiyya's also, they have their own seal. You cannot say that theosophists did not try.

[premjan]

Prophets are people who make prophecies. Very few people make prophecies and even fewer see them come to pass. I'm not sure that Krishna made any significant prophecies (other than that he would be reborn in every age when disorder threatened to take over). Muhammad made a few (e.g. one day even stones will speak Arabic) but is also not noted particularly for prophecies. I think Jesus made a few prophecies (e.g. the Jerusalem temple would be destroyed shortly). Generally the word prophet is applicable more to old testament guys who actually predicted the downfall of some kingdom or like the prediction that one day humans will wear microchips. If Muhammad is the seal of the prophets, perhaps there is some special meaning we can attribute to that which does not preclude successors like Bahaullah.

[anders]

oddly enough as the Persians may have been responsible for the name "Hindu"
Yes, that's the consensus. Hindustan was the country on the other side of the river Sindh, i.e. Indus. There are lots of examples where a Persian s corresponds to an ancient Indian h.
I think the Hindus may have been responsible for the name "Arab" as they were the main trading partners of the Arabs (especially the horses and spices) for a long time. I think Arab means "west" so it is plausible that this refers to "west of e.g. India".
It’s an interesting exercise in statistics to calculate the number of chance resemblances (http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm) between languages. For any given notion you’re quite likely to find what looks like a resemblance between any two languages.

But there should exist a resemblance, for starters.

You’re close here, but a dot spoils it. The first letter of Arab is a `ayn ع; in “west” it’s ghayn غ. Semantically, they are of course as different as can be. The Arab used to regard non-Arabs as westerners.

The word ARAB is from the sanskrit word ARVA meaning horses. ARVASTHAN means land of horses.
Are you joking seriously or just trying to pull our legs? There is a Sanskrit horse, arvan/arvaa/arvantau/arvantah, but I found no arva in my dictionaries. Anyway, there is a huge difference in the first first letters: the Arabic consonant `ayn vs. the Sanskrit vowel a, so it’s not a very close match. Not good for conclusions.

[premjan]

So the word 'Arab' is actually 'Aarab' or maybe 'Eyrab'?

[anders]

So the word 'Arab' is actually 'Aarab' or maybe 'Eyrab'?
I'm afraid that I don't quite get your point. Of those two, Aarab is closer to `arab. Where you live, you should be familiar with the initial sound of, for example, the name Omar - or better IMO `umar. Also initial `ayn.

[kalchiran]

Are you joking seriously or just trying to pull our legs? There is a Sanskrit horse, arvan/arvaa/arvantau/arvantah, but I found no arva in my dictionaries. Anyway, there is a huge difference in the first first letters: the Arabic consonant `ayn vs. the Sanskrit vowel a, so it’s not a very close match. Not good for conclusions.

Arvan is many times similarly used as Arva..

Same as Brahman is used for Brahma... The 'n' is added to noun when we are addressing that particular noun.

For example, if a person is addressing to a king, he does not say,"O Rajaa.."

He says, " O Rajan.."

Similarly, when Brahma is directly addressed, it is referred to as Brahman..
Aatmaa is referred to as Aatman.

Arvan-arvaa-Arvantau-arvantah is the progression of Vibhakti-Pratyay of this particular noun.
The nouns are many a times not used in common sentence as they are mentioned in Vibhkati Progression.
Secondly, This grammar is introduced by Panini.. The sanskrit mentioned in Rigveda is much older than the one formulated by Paanini.

Although the word meanings do not change in Aarsha Sanskrit and paaninian Sanskrit, the sentence building is many times altered..
Hence applying laws of Paaninian Grammar to Vedic Sanskrit is not appropriete.
The Arabia has been famous for horses... Arva is not used to refer to an ordinary horse... Arvan or Arvaa, is used to refer to a steed, finest quality of horses. For others, there is the noun, Ashva.
Hence Arva becomes similar to Arvan..

[premjan]

The term "Arab" or "Arabian" (and cognates in other languages) has been used to translate several different but similar sounding names of ancient peoples of the Middle East which do not necessarily have the same meaning or origin. The etymology of the term is of course closely linked to that of the place name "Arabia". The root of the word has many meanings in Semitic languages including "west / sunset", "desert", "mingle", "merchant", "raven", "comprehensible" all of which appear to have some relevance to the emergence of the name. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab#Etymology)

Apparently the word also means 'desert' which is probably the most likely etymology.