is star wars atheist?

[rickym]

a lot of people are right now trying to make the movie into a religion. you can search the internet on 'jediism' to find out.

if youll notice, there is no mention of god. there is a discipline of the mind and emotions similar to buddhism which is atheistic. 'the force' can not really be god because there is a 'good side of the force' and a 'bad side of the force.' it seems bordering on the supernatural side though which some atheists would not be comfortable with.

george lucas has implied in interviews that he is buddhist, but he also says that he believes in god.

is star wars atheist?

[Tao of Pooh]

I remember reading something about this several years ago and thought it interesting but sort of a "trekkie" kind of thing. (If a Star Trek fanatic is called a trekkie what's a Stars Wars fanatic called?:huh: )
in my opinion Jediism is more of a philosophy than a religion, and yes, atheistic.

[Karalora]

'the force' can not really be god because there is a 'good side of the force' and a 'bad side of the force.'

That doesn't follow. There have been plenty of dual-natured deities in world mythology. Pele, Kali, pretty much any trickster god, etc.

[Tao of Pooh]

That doesn't follow. There have been plenty of dual-natured deities in world mythology. Pele, Kali, pretty much any trickster god, etc.

I don't know much about the force but I get the empression that it isn't anthropomorphic, i.e. not endowed with personality that might qualify it as a diety, it's a moral guide or philosophy.

[Lonely_Road_Of_Faith]

Eh, personally I'd say it's entertainment and it doesn't matter much weather there are gods or not in science fiction, the geek in me must reply to this thread.

While I'd say the closest thing to a concept of divinity that we see regularly in the movies would be the Force...though there is Jar Jar's comment to Qui-Gon in Ep 1 about his life debt being demanded by 'da gods.' In various books and whatnot it's occasionally mentioned that some cultures worship gods and some don't. Seems like in the SW galaxy, most theistic cultures are somewhat less technologically advanced (ewoks, dark force witches of dathomir, gungans, sand people, etc.) Hmmmmmmm, maybe they're trying to say something there? I don't know.

On the other hand...also in Ep. 1, Yoda's speech to Anakin about how fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering, is pretty much taken from some buddhist scripture or other, just add "desire leads to fear" in the beginning, and the quote is relatively accurate. I don't remember what exactly it comes from, but I remember a buddhist explained it to me once.

So maybe theism isn't a big deal in star wars, but there does seem to be a spiritual element to it on occasion.

[Autonemesis]

(If a Star Trek fanatic is called a trekkie what's a Stars Wars fanatic called?:huh: )

A mark.

[JEST2ASK]

I remember reading something about this several years ago and thought it interesting but sort of a "trekkie" kind of thing. (If a Star Trek fanatic is called a trekkie what's a Stars Wars fanatic called?:huh: )
in my opinion Jediism is more of a philosophy than a religion, and yes, atheistic.

A Trekkie some one who spends thousand of dollars to go to a Sci-Fi convention ... plans all year on what they will wear ... belongs to several fan sites ... has spent countless hours reading both the Physics of Star Trek and The Meta-Physics of Star Trek ... knows multiple Vulcan , and Kligon pharses .. has Star Trek items on their desk at work ... wears their costume home from the convention so everyone will know, they have made their pilgrimage

A Trekker : Takes of the costume once the convention is over

So a SW fan who is a Jedi Knight would be a trekkie or treker type ...:confused:



:wave: :Cheeky: :devil3:

[Tao of Pooh]

A Trekkie some one who spends thousand of dollars to go to a Sci-Fi convention ... plans all year on what they will wear ... belongs to several fan sites ... has spent countless hours reading both the Physics of Star Trek and The Meta-Physics of Star Trek ... knows multiple Vulcan , and Kligon pharses .. has Star Trek items on their desk at work ... wears their costume home from the convention so everyone will know, they have made their pilgrimage


You've just described my boss!:eek:

[rickym]

That doesn't follow. There have been plenty of dual-natured deities in world mythology. Pele, Kali, pretty much any trickster god, etc.

i forgot about those, i'm used to god being monotheistic and omnimax like the one in christianity.

so considering the definition of theist. if one believes in several gods with none of them being omnimax, each having his own specialty, that would still make him a theist?

couldn't the force be considered deist since it may be considered an impersonal god like the yin and yang of taoism?

[Trout]

I read about people dressed as Klingons driving around and beating up people dressed as Jedi's during the films. Got a huge laugh out of that.

Seriously though, I also heard about a movement in Canada to have Jedi (ism?) listed as an official religion. Beats the heck out of more Baptists I guess.

[JEST2ASK]

I read about people dressed as Klingons driving around and beating up people dressed as Jedi's during the films. Got a huge laugh out of that.

Now that should have made the national news

[JEST2ASK]

You've just described my boss!:eek:

Does he ever say Live Long and Prosper ... to end team meetings :devil3:

[Karalora]

i forgot about those, i'm used to god being monotheistic and omnimax like the one in christianity.

Many people are. I've a feeling that there would be fewer strong atheists if the Abrahamic concept of God hadn't taken over the dictionary.

so considering the definition of theist. if one believes in several gods with none of them being omnimax, each having his own specialty, that would still make him a theist?

Yes. Specifically, he would be a polytheist.

couldn't the force be considered deist since it may be considered an impersonal god like the yin and yang of taoism?

Possibly. Although I usually think of deism as the belief that God is not only impersonal but inactive in the material world. The Force is impersonal, but it is not inactive--it is present and can be accessed and manipulated. If it is to be considered a deity, it must be a sleeping one.

I must be giving the impression that I am a Star Wars nut. I'm not; just someone who reads too much and uses everything as an analogy for everything else.

[Jabu Khan]

I think Star Wars is Authority/Obedience style religion versus Transformation model religion.

[Peter Watts]

a lot of people are right now trying to make the movie into a religion. you can search the internet on 'jediism' to find out.

if youll notice, there is no mention of god. there is a discipline of the mind and emotions similar to buddhism which is atheistic. 'the force' can not really be god because there is a 'good side of the force' and a 'bad side of the force.' it seems bordering on the supernatural side though which some atheists would not be comfortable with.

george lucas has implied in interviews that he is buddhist, but he also says that he believes in god.

is star wars atheist?

Lucas has said in interviews that he didn't want to lean toward any specific religious thought when he wrote "Star Wars." He was heavily influenced by Joseph Campbell, and the Force tends to be a homogeneous mix of religion. Perhaps that is why people of different faiths can look at "Star Wars" and see elements of their own beliefs in it.
Some see a little bit of Christian thought in Anakin's rise, fall and redemption. Some see pantheism in Yoda's description of how the Force "unites and binds" us.
Still, the common thread with everything is that the Force is supernatural, mystical.
Han Solo, clearly an atheist, doesn't believe in the Force. Leia doesn't really understand or know much about it. Obi Wan and Yoda are like clergy of a sort.
I wrote a paper on the Force for a philosophy course in college. I always tried to pick a topic that would be as fun to research as it would be intriguing for the professor to read. (If you can give them something they haven't read a million times, professors are grateful to you.)

[trendkill]

I'd say the fall of Anakin in the prequels is the clearest example of a religious theme in Star Wars. It teaches the Buddhist precept that attachment and the failure to accept change are the causes of evil. Anakin's inability to accept the inevitability of death is what leads him to the Dark Side. Although he doesn't mention Buddhism, Lucas explicitly describes his intent to show the theme of attachment = suffering on the Episode 2 DVD. The only memorable dialogue from the prequels is on this subject (Yoda's speech about fear leading to suffering in Episode 1, as LROF mentioned).

There is also the theme of universal interconnectedness and Han's nod to skepticism (which is more of a pragmatic skepticism that the movies never really attempt to show as debunked, IIRC), but nothing theistic that I can think of. I'd agree that Star Wars, although not really skeptical or naturalistic overall, is atheistic.

[Pendaric]

I once saw a vicar do a sermon which used the death of Obi Wan at the hands of Darth Vader in episode IV as a Christ analogy - 'If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can ever imagine' or words to that effect, and the absence of a body.

I thought that being able to use the force was kind of like a genetic thing that was dependent on the amount of medichlorins in the body - Anakin is referred to as having more medichlorins than anybody ever known.

IMO it's supposed to be a telekinetic ability to harness energy rather than a deity. The Force is seen as an everpresent energy in all things which can be used for good or evil, rather than as a anthropomorphic deity. It doesn't have any individual intelligence or judgement as to the uses to which it is put.

[Y.B]

FWIW, I know a Pentecostal fundy who is also a huge Star Wars fan.

[Peter Watts]

FWIW, I know a Pentecostal fundy who is also a huge Star Wars fan.

Do the math — there are quite a few "fundies" who are big Star Wars fans.

I'm a Christian among their number.

Is there a reason why that would be unusual?

[Tao of Pooh]

Does he ever say Live Long and Prosper ... to end team meetings :devil3:

Fortunately it's never come to that but he does know every little thing you could ever wanted to know (or not) about anything to do with StarTrek. I told him about the ultimate Trekkie DVD pack of everything Star Trek (I think it had over 200 DVDs in it) going for a mere $2300.00 and I could see the wheels spinning in his head.
I made a mistake one day of asking him the name of some race in one of the series and got about a 2 hr lecture on all things Star Trek.:eek: He then came in the next day with some DVDs that he had downloaded of some fans that decided to continue the Enterprise's 5 year missions and make episodes of thier own...WOW!!!
But since he's the one who gives out the raises I watched them and dutifully made some appreciative comments/noises when quizzed later.

Me, I'm more of an Andromeda fan.


God is just a nickname for the universe.

[JEST2ASK]

Fortunately it's never come to that but he does know every little thing you could ever wanted to know (or not) about anything to do with StarTrek.

I made a mistake one day of asking him the name of some race in one of the series and got about a 2 hr lecture on all things Star Trek.:eek:

He then came in the next day with some DVDs that he had downloaded of some fans that decided to continue the Enterprise's 5 year missions and make episodes of thier own...WOW!!!
Me, I'm more of an Andromeda fan.


God is just a nickname for the universe.

I was "privillaged" to be introduced to something similar The New Voyages which is based on the original series ... unfortunately the site seems to be down for an upgrade ... The actors doing Kirk and Spock are quite good in a (I hope) over the top parody ...

I am a Babylon 5 / Deep Space 9 / Farscape fan ...

ETA were the producers the IFT The International Federation of Trekkers

[drewjmore]

I'm working on a pre-pre-quel Star Wars fan-fiction film. This elevates my interest the ongoing discussion, and (I feel) qualifies me to comment on this topic.

My research has concluded that Lucas was raised Episcopalian, although I personally don't see influences of this in the films. Most pundits I've browsed link the force to the Taoist Yin-Yang dichotomy, and consider 'the force' to be theological only to the degree that Taoists consider, 'The Tao," to be so.
That said, in the Star Wars universe the effects of devotion to that ancient religion are real and demonstrable; force adepts are legitimately powerful individuals. The Force transcends real-world religion in this sense, since in the real-world a fakir is a faker and a con-artist.

[rickym]

follow up question.

do you think 'the force' in the star wars is purely fiction, or are atheists open to the idea with a force that connects all living things etc.

[trendkill]

I would say it's purely fiction. In reality, beliefs such as that everything is interconnected or shares a universal mind, or other similar beliefs, seem to come from illusions caused by altered states of consciousness. Meditation, for example, can suppress the parts of the brain responsible for creating the physical sense of self and spatial orientation, thus making the person feel as if his experience has expanded to encompass everything that exists. But he is probably not acquiring the extra information about the universe he thinks he is; he's just getting another perspective on his own existence. See Andrew Newberg (http://www.andrewnewberg.com/)'s research.

[Magic Primate]

I would say it's purely fiction. In reality, beliefs such as that everything is interconnected or shares a universal mind, or other similar beliefs, seem to come from illusions caused by altered states of consciousness.

According to Buddha, the belief that everything isn't interconnected is an illusion caused by common states of mind.

Scientific evidence shows the interconnectedness of things - the 'oneness of the electromagnetic fields', the 'oneness' of energy, matter and space-time, chaos theory, quantum physics etc.

Meditation, for example, can suppress the parts of the brain responsible for creating the physical sense of self and spatial orientation, thus making the person feel as if his experience has expanded to encompass everything that exists.

Alternatively, meditation can suppress the parts of the brain responsible for the illusion of being genuinely separate from the rest of the universe.

How can something which is genuinely (as opposed to conventionally) separate ever interact with anything else? We are all manifestations of the same fundamental laws, forces, reality. This doesn't imply instantaneous communication, omniscience or any other such nonsense of course.

But he is probably not acquiring the extra information about the universe he thinks he is; he's just getting another perspective on his own existence. See Andrew Newberg (http://www.andrewnewberg.com/)'s research.

Agreed. He is realising that the commonsense intuition that human beings / human minds are discreet from the rest of reality is ultimately an illusion. Unfortunately this understanding doesn't grant him any supernatural powers.

[Magic Primate]

Its no big secret that George Lucas was strongly influenced by Buddhism.

[drewjmore]

A tip of my virtual hat to the Magic Primate. My agreement requires no qualification.

It has now occurred to me that the Force is a religion in reverse. The power it entails is 'real,' and thus the knowledge of it has to be controlled-- i.e. not broadly distributed among the masses. Our religions contrast with this: power-- indeed efficacy-- is dubious at best, and the entire goal of religions is to spread their message far and wide.

Further, the Force seems to be amoral. Jedi adhere to the 'positive' (in the Buddhist idiom) qualities that the Force provides, and their numbers & influence flourish. The Sith focus on the opposite, consequently only two can be alive at a time due to their ultra-competetive inclinations. This does not, however, limit their power or influence.

More tangentially, the Force is said to have a will of it's own. It "guides destiny," "controls actions" and communcates to beings through the (distressingly un-mystical intermediary) midichlorians. It can even spawn children, if you believe Qui Gon Jinn.

[trendkill]

According to Buddha, the belief that everything isn't interconnected is an illusion caused by common states of mind.

Scientific evidence shows the interconnectedness of things - the 'oneness of the electromagnetic fields', the 'oneness' of energy, matter and space-time, chaos theory, quantum physics etc. There are different meanings of "interconnected". Certainly everything has a certain relation to everything else; you could view the whole universe as a single "thing", and you would be correct. But that doesn't mean that we can sense the existence of a distant galaxy without a telescope.

Alternatively, meditation can suppress the parts of the brain responsible for the illusion of being genuinely separate from the rest of the universe.That was what I meant by "physical sense of self". The feeling of being separate from the rest of the world is constructed by the brain. It can be called an illusion, but then, the lack of it could be considered an illusion as well. I don't really consider either an illusion; rather, they are both different, valid perspectives on existence.

[Magic Primate]

There are different meanings of "interconnected". Certainly everything has a certain relation to everything else; you could view the whole universe as a single "thing", and you would be correct. But that doesn't mean that we can sense the existence of a distant galaxy without a telescope.

Who said you could? That's your misunderstanding isn't it? That's not implied by everything being interconnected - therewould also have to be no such thing as spacial extention/distance for that to be true.

That was what I meant by "physical sense of self". The feeling of being separate from the rest of the world is constructed by the brain. It can be called an illusion, but then, the lack of it could be considered an illusion as well. I don't really consider either an illusion; rather, they are both different, valid perspectives on existence.

Well if you thought that Cartesian Dualism was problematic, you'd be hard pressed to defend (philosphically or scientifically) a description of reality in which human beings really are truly separate and independent from the rest of the universe. This is the illusion I am talking about and it is an illusion.

[trendkill]

Who said you could?Many people who are into Eastern religion.

That's your misunderstanding isn't it?As I'm not one of them, that would be a "no".


Well if you thought that Cartesian Dualism was problematic, you'd be hard pressed to defend (philosphically or scientifically) a description of reality in which human beings really are truly separate and independent from the rest of the universe. This is the illusion I am talking about and it is an illusion.And from a practical perspective, you'd be hard pressed to defend a description of reality that doesn't distinguish between you and me. "Thou art that" is all well and good until you need someone to take out the trash.

[Magic Primate]

Many people who are into Eastern religion.

Buddhists can't take responsibility for people (eg 'New Age' types and you) who misunderstand or misrepresent Buddhism and eastern thought generally. I don't know if there are other forms of 'eastern thought' that would assert that we can sense the existence of a distant galaxy without a telescope, but Buddhism isn't one of them. Its a straw man argument.

There is a branch of Buddhism called VajrayÄ?na which includes esoteric, magical practices, but I wouldn't defend that either and it's not what Buddha taught.

As I'm not one of them, that would be a "no".

Come on - you can do better than that.

And from a practical perspective, you'd be hard pressed to defend a description of reality that doesn't distinguish between you and me. "Thou art that" is all well and good until you need someone to take out the trash.
LOL. True, but the idea that this is what Buddhism teaches or implies is your misunderstanding - an understandable one perhaps but a misunderstanding nevertheless. Buddha himself refuted such views. So feel free to attack that philosophical position but please don't characterise it as a correctly understood Buddhism.

[trendkill]

Buddhists can't take responsibility for peopleI can't take responsibility for your lack of reading comprehension or hyperdefensiveness. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I have it in for Buddhists (I have not even mentioned Buddhism once while talking about the "interconnectedness" subject), but I don't, so I'm not going to respond to any of those laughable and baseless straw men.

[Magic Primate]

I can't take responsibility for your lack of reading comprehension or hyperdefensiveness. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I have it in for Buddhists (I have not even mentioned Buddhism once while talking about the "interconnectedness" subject), but I don't, so I'm not going to respond to any of those laughable and baseless straw men.

In truth I'm not being remotely defensive, so that comment is misplaced. But possibly I might be accused of not spelling out my position clearly, so I'll rectify that now.

You have made certain claims about the concept of 'interconnectedness', which I have shown are false. Interconnectedness alone is not enough to allow us to 'sense the existence of a distant galaxy without a telescope' nor that meditation allows us to gain information in paranormal ways nor that it is 'a description of reality that doesn't distinguish between you and me'. For these to be true, you'd also need for there to be no such thing as spatial or informational extension and for reality to be homogenous.

Now, the reason I'm defending Buddhism even though you didn't specify it by name is because you said:
In reality, beliefs such as that everything is interconnected or shares a universal mind, or other similar beliefs, seem to come from illusions caused by altered states of consciousness. Meditation, for example, can suppress the parts of the brain responsible for creating the physical sense of self and spatial orientation, thus making the person feel as if his experience has expanded to encompass everything that exists. But he is probably not acquiring the extra information about the universe he thinks he is;

And you've also stated that 'Many people who are into Eastern religion.' would believe such nonsense as stated above.

Now, given that 'interconnectedness' (and more strongly, interdependence, called 'Dependent Origination' in Buddhism) is a fundamental concept of Buddhism and that Buddhism could be described as an 'Eastern Religion' it's difficult to see how you have not mischaracterised Buddhism with your broad brush strokes. The reason I singled out Buddhism to defend is that I have enough of an understanding of it to know that it is being mischaracterised. These are common misunderstandings.

[Philippe*]

I don't know if there are other forms of 'eastern thought' that would assert that we can sense the existence of a distant galaxy without a telescope, but Buddhism isn't one of them. Its a straw man argument.


In hindu related Yoga, it is said that through yogic powers some knowledge about universe can be acquired.

Yoga Sutras - Patanjali - chapter III:27-29
27. By performing samyama (directed awareness) on the sun, the knowledge of the solar system (bhuvana) is obtained.
28. (By performing samyama) on the moon, the knowledge about the position of stars is obtained.
29. (By performing samyama) on the Polar Star, the knowledge about movements of stars is obtained.

Philippe

[Magic Primate]

In hindu related Yoga, it is said that through yogic powers some knowledge about universe can be acquired.


Sounds pretty daft to me. But who knows?

[premjan]

Its no big secret that George Lucas was strongly influenced by Buddhism.
Jedi Masters are Buddhist monks? What are the Sith Lords?

I guess the directed awareness thing just means meditate about the sun and you may get an inkling about the solar system etc. Meditation can clear up a chaotic thought process (useful).

[pescifish]

Please focus on the arguments and do not make judgment comments on the status of other users. The following remark is inappropriate and editable:I can't take responsibility for your lack of reading comprehension or hyperdefensiveness. Since Magic Primate has already responded without escalating the issue (as most of you do, thank you!), I will not edit it. But please consider all remarks directly about other users are not acceptable per IIDB Forum Rules (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=79159).

[Philippe*]

Here an article from the BBC published on Tuesday, 27 August, 2002 :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2218456.stm

More than 70,000 people in Australia have declared that they are followers of the Jedi faith, the religion created by the Star Wars films.

...

An e-mail was sent around the world in 2001 saying that if 10,000 people declared they were Jedi, it would be recognised as an official religion.
But the Australian Bureau of Statistics said it would be categorised as "not defined".
Thousands of people in New Zealand and the UK also followed the advice of the e-mail - with Jedi Knight even being included on the list of religions by UK census authorities.

Here is wikipedia about the Force :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_%28Star_Wars%29

In the original trilogy, there were two aspects of the Force given emphasis: the light side and the dark side. These are concerned with the moral compass of the Force in its various manifestations. The light side of the Force is the facet of that energy field aligned with good, benevolence, and healing. The dark side of the Force is the element aligned with fear, hatred, aggression, and malevolence; this side of the Force seems more powerful, though it is just more tempting to those that can touch upon the power. In the prequel trilogy, the Force was also described with two additional aspects: the Unifying Force and the Living Force. These aspects were not largely expanded upon in the films, but in the Expanded Universe they are defined by prominent Jedi philosophies. The Unifying Force essentially embraces space and time in its entirety. The Living Force deals with the directly ongoing niches present in the Force.

The Force is described by Obi-Wan Kenobi as "an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together." The Force is life, and life is the Force. Some think of the Force as a sentient entity that may be capable of intelligent thought—almost as if it were a sort of God—while others simply consider it something that can be manipulated and used as though it were a tool.

I don't know who is "some" here, but it seems that the Force coud be seen as a sentient entity, so to respond to the topic the spirituality of Star Wars would be both atheist and theist. But more atheist though.

Philippe

[Magic Primate]

http://www.starwarz.com/tbone/guest_editorials/drdave_zen.htm

[trendkill]

it's difficult to see how you have not mischaracterised Buddhism with your broad brush strokes.Like this: by saying that I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT BUDDHISM. Which I have already done. Explicitly. Get that through your head, and then STOP accusing me of criticizing Buddhism. Thank you.

[Magic Primate]

Well at least you've made that clear now Trendkill.

[Yeshi]

Jedi Masters are Buddhist monks? What are the Sith Lords?


Jedi are not monks, but Samurais. Lucas admitted taking 1:1 scenario or setup of Akiro Kurosawa film(s) on the general and his daughter (was it "The Fortress"?).

You also have (light-)sabres, teacher-student relationship, holy warrior (bodhisatva) aspect, magical faculties (siddhis) etc.

The nobility form of buddhism in Japan is Shingon, which IS vajrayana (came over master Kukai via Korea to Japan, separate route then Cha'an/Zen lineages). So i guess it also allows for "magic rituals".

Sith Lords are black mages, masters that got corrupted on their path by rudra (ego), and use the magic for personal gain. (Samaya-breakers)

[Magic Primate]

The film you're thinking of is called 'Hidden Fortress'
http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/h/hidden_fortress.html

It includes prototypes for R2D2 and C3P0, princess Leia and the duel between Obi Wan Kinobi and Darth Vader.

[trendkill]

Well at least you've made that clear now Trendkill.
Are you sure? Because I might be able to simplify it even further. I don't think I can get "Buddhism" down to one syllable, but short of that, I think I can make it even clearer if necessary.

[Magic Primate]

Are you sure? Because I might be able to simplify it even further. I don't think I can get "Buddhism" down to one syllable, but short of that, I think I can make it even clearer if necessary.

My point stands Trendkill. You implicated a large part of the philosophy of an entire continent with your broad criticism of the concept of interconnectedness in Eastern religion. So you shouldn't be suprised if someone who has at least a moderate understanding of one of those bodies of ideas stands up for it against your misconceived or at least misdirected attack.

I have indeed come across people with the sort of wooly-headed notions that you are criticising, but the majority of them have been in the west.

If your scattergun is inaccurate that's your responsibility Trendkill, so if I was you I'd move on rather than make sarcastic comments about it.

[trendkill]

My point stands Trendkill.Your point has been demolished.

You implicated a large part of the philosophy of an entire continent with your broad criticism of the concept of interconnectedness in Eastern religion.And you made unwarranted assumptions about which part that was, assumptions which you strangely persisted in even after being explicitly corrected.

I have indeed come across people with the sort of wooly-headed notions that you are criticising, but the majority of them have been in the west.Of course my "attack" was not directed specifically at people in the east, west, north, south, or in any particular region. Paying attention to what I typed would have yielded this information readily.

If your scattergun is inaccurate that's your responsibility Trendkill, so if I was you I'd move on rather than make sarcastic comments about it."Unspecified" is not the same as "scattergun". I made a qualified statement. The whole purpose of qualifying a statement is to avoid making overly broad claims.

But of course this is silly. What I wrote is right up there in black and white, for those of us who have both the ability and the inclination to take the trouble to actually read what they are commenting on.

[Magic Primate]

You didn't qualify your statement until I pressed you to do so.