Is the god of the Bible evil? -- Tysixtus vs. Bible John

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

This thread has been set up for a formal debate between Tysixtus and Bible John who will debate the following resolution:

"Resolved: the God of the Bible is evil."

Tysixtus will affirm and Bible John will oppose. The debate will have 4 rounds and posts will be submitted concurrently, per the parameters (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=3383240&postcount=24).

A Peanut Gallery (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3385583#post3385583) is set up in the General Religious Discussions forum for the rest of us to comment on the debate.

Enjoy the debate!

- NS, FD Moderator

[Bible John]

INTRODUCTION

First I want to thank iidb.org for hosting this debate. I also want to thank Nightshade for moderating this debate. I also wish to thank my opponent for debating with me. I know that I am new to debating here with you Atheist/agnostics. [comments deleted - NS] While a newbie to iidb.org I’m experienced in debate. My normal debating grounds is on Usenet newsgroups. Usenet is where I spend a great deal of my time preaching the word and presenting the salvation message for the many lost souls there. I also apologetically defend the gospel against the many false teachers, Spiritual Terrorists, and Anti Christ’s. [comments deleted - NS]

I do not plan to get into much depth in this brief introduction, but in the next rounds very much plan to show my opponent using the bible, theology and other resources that the God of the bible is a very good and Just God. Since my current opponent (like the last 2) does not know personally the God of the bible, he is at a loss. I know Him and I have a relationship with Him. My opponent or anyone reading this introduction may browse my website to find a page on salvation. There are many passages in the bible that have been misunderstood by atheists. Looking at some other debates of similar nature on this website I can tell that many atheists seem to blame God for the Natural Evil in our world. They have a complete misunderstanding of the term and the concepts behind the term. Looking in a theological dictionary, the term Natural Evil basically means evil in nature, and life. Nature Evil shall not be confused with Moral Evil, which basically means evil in humankind. Sadly many atheists on these boards do confuse these terms. They blame God for all the evil in our society, yet the average atheists has not taken an Intro to Chr Theology course, or he or she would have learned the differences between Natural and Moral Evil. Many blame God for all the disaster and murder in our world, when in reality it’s the sin of mankind that is to blame for this and Moral Evil. God in his own freewill allows sin and evil in the World, because He is a Just God. He loves mankind so much, that He chose to give us each a freewill, and so many have chosen sin and evil over righteousness.

The bible in many places makes it very clear that God is a loving and Just God. Anyone reading the bible with the Holy Spirit in them will see this. Even the sinners, whom God has chosen, will see this. My opponent may in his main arguments argue that God hates babies, because there are some passages where God condones the murdering of babies. I will argue in my main arguments or in my rebuttal why God allowed this, and only allowed this to carry out justice. God’s justice always needs to be carried out. Just like there is plenty of evil in our world and plenty justice that needs to be carried out one day. But this justice has not yet come, but will one day.
One day Gods patience will run out, and everyone not written in the Lambs book of life will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:15).

My opponent may argue that God is hateful and mean for allowing this, but I will argue for Gods justice and sovereignty for sinners. My opponent and those that are unsaved will perhaps have all eternity to remember the many gospel presentations that were made to them, and how they rejected the God of the bible. I hope that they do come to grips with the God of the bible by the end of this debate.



John

[TySixtus]

First of all, I'd like to thank BibleJohn for participating in this debate. I would also like to thank IIDB or hosting it, and Nightshade for taking the time out to moderate it. Hopefully I can live up to the impressive debate standards that have been set by precedent.

How do we measure “evil”?

It is not my intention to cripple this debate by starting my round with the assumption that we cannot even define the word. I think we can, and I think our “human” definition can actually mean something if we stick with it. That is, if we apply the distinctions of what makes evil evil , and we consistently use those distinctions, we can cough-up a general meaning of the word.

Evil:

Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper. This is evil in the adjective sense, used in the same way as my contention: The god of the Bible is Evil.

Now, it’s not enough to say that someone does “evil deeds”. Every adult alive has fit the above description at one point or another. We all commit evil acts. But this is not enough to brand us as “evil”. Jonas Salk, the man who created the Polio vaccine, was by all accounts a great man. He helped to defeat a horrible disease and save lives. However, according to Julius S. Youngner (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_319390.html), he was a real jerk. At a speech announcing to the world the effectiveness of the new vaccine, Dr. Salk neglected to mention his research team. This so angered them that many never saw the doctor again. According to them, he spitefully ignored the accomplishments of his team and hogged the glory for himself.

Now the truth of this matter is up for grabs. But let’s assume it’s true. Let’s assume Dr. Salk was an arrogant ass who refused to acknowledge his team’s help in formulating a vaccine. Would intentionally snubbing his coworkers be considered evil? Absolutely. Would we call him “evil” for it? Probably not.

There is a point at which we, as humans, will “add up” all the evil deeds of a person and from there decide if a person is, in fact, evil. If Dr. Salk, instead of snubbing his coworkers, had freely decided to murder 10 people and eat them, we would not hesitate to call him evil. The only thing this tells us is that we humans have certain notions of certain acts, which will propel them to the head of the line of “evilness” when having a discussion about evil. To put it simply, we judge some things to be “more evil” than others. Lying is evil, sure, but not as bad as killing someone.

This isn’t news to anyone, I’m sure. I bring this up for several reasons. I would posit that killing someone is one of the most severe evils in the world. Sometimes, it cannot be avoided. Killing someone, therefore, when you can avoid it is an even greater evil. I would go so far as to say it's the worst evils you can visit upon a person.

It is no shock to anyone who has read it that the Bible contains exhortations to murder, and actual murder itself- both from YHWH, and from those in his service. I will argue, as have many before me that YHWH’s conduct both in the Old Testament and New, is deplorable for a supreme being capable of anything.

I’m going to predict my opponent’s tack in this debate. I have a feeling that I’m going to get the “might-makes-right” line of argument. Put simply, how can we mere humans judge the actions of God as “evil”? In what way are we capable of judging any work or act of YHWH’s as “evil”?

The answer to this is simple. The same values and standards that we apply to the goodness of God work both ways. It always amazes me that a Christian will point to the Bible as a source for God’s good works, but when that same book is used to point out his failings and atrocities, suddenly humans are incapable of judging god. The criticisms have an irritating habit of only going one way. I intend to apply them both ways.

If YHWH did really create mankind, he also destroyed them by a flood. If YHWH did really bless Job, he also made a bet with Satan to see how much his servant could suffer. If YHWH really did want the Hebrews freed from bondage, he also hardened the Pharaoh’s heart to stop it from happening, thereby allowing (causing?) innocent first born babies to be murdered in their cribs.

If any other being were to cause such suffering, they would be burned to dust for their crimes. If any other being had destroyed the entire population of the world save eight, he would be branded a horrible, vicious, murdering thing, worthy of our hatred and contempt. The god of the Bible has done this, and instead receives praises and requires worship. Something is wrong here.

To sum up, my second round will be theological in nature. The third will be philosophical in nature, and the fourth will be a summary of the two, and of course the rebuttals of any unanswered points from my opponent’s preceding two rounds.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

The next set of concurrent statements will make up Round 2.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Bible John has requested a week extension past the deadline for the next round's statements (the new deadline is June 8). I have agreed to grant his request.

- NS, FD Moderator

[TySixtus]

Before I begin my second round, I would like to clarify some statements I made in the first round concerning “evil”, and how we as humans determine “evil” as a characteristic in a being.

I was not in any way attempting to illustrate a “formula” for determining evil. In fact, my intent was quite the opposite. As I wrote, people will add up the deeds of a person to decide if they are good… but it can take only one evil deed to erase that standing. This is not a balance or a scale- it is the polar opposite. There is no “fairness” in morality. It takes far fewer deeds to be branded an evil human being than it does to be branded good. This was my point. There are certain deeds that will serve to label a person “evil” no matter how much good they’ve done in their life. Dr. Salk murdering and eating a few people will utterly outweigh any good he may have done with his polio vaccine. Whether “rational” or not, this is the way we tend to view morality. It is, therefore, the same view I will take with the Christian god.

The God of the Bible Is Evil

I could (and many have) write a treatise on the varied deeds committed by YHWH against humanity. I could fill a book nearly as big as the Bible itself, but to what end? If a person is firmly convinced that it is impossible for YHWH to commit evil acts, no amount of scholarship will aid my cause. Instead, I will merely pick one example and offer various theological arguments for it.


15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.

Emphasis mine.

First and foremost, let there be no confusion. YHWH killed all the first-born of Egypt. Why did he kill all of the first born? Well, because the Pharaoh would not release the Jews from captivity. Why would the Pharaoh not release the Jews from captivity?

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

It appears that the Pharaoh would not let them go because YHWH had hardened his heart. It seems that the Pharaoh was perhaps ready to let them go, only to have his will impeded upon by a supernatural being.

So let’s sum up this situation.

1) God wants Pharaoh to let the Jews free from captivity.
2) God sends plagues.
3) The plagues change the Pharaoh’s mind, and it seems he is ready to let the Jews go.
4) God hardens Pharaoh’s heart.
5) Pharaoh then refuses to let the Jews go.
6) God, in retaliation, kills all the firstborn (babies included) of Egypt.


Now, I’m no logic professor but it seems to me that God, in this scenario, is his own worst enemy. He himself caused the Pharaoh to keep the Jews in captivity. Because of this, he then kills the entire first born population of Egypt.

In what other area of conversation would these actions be considered anything other than “evil”?

We have YHWH creating a lose-lose situation for the Pharaoh. He’s stacked the deck. No matter what the Pharaoh does, YHWH is going to punish him. (This speaks volumes, by the way, about his supposed mercy and benevolence). But even worse than that, YHWH then proceeds to murder babies.

Say that out loud a few times.

In the Christian mythology, we have a God who is powerful enough to summon frogs and flies and boils, to turn the Nile into blood. He even has enough power to mess with the mind and heart of his enemy, to change his actions. Why then must he resort to the murder of innocents? And make no mistake- it is murder. To kill a baby in his crib because the king of the land that he lives in pissed you off is murder, plain and simple. If we won’t consider that murder, then the word has no meaning.

Why the Killing of the First Born Should Be Considered Murder.

Take a police officer. He’s responding to a burglary call. When he gets to the house, he notices the window is open and hears cursing and screaming coming from inside. Through the window, he can see that the burglar is holding a family at gun point. The family consists of the neighborhood mailman and his wife and child. The cop kicks the door down and immediately comes under fire. He returns fire with his gun and kills the burglar.

We would never consider this to be murder. Sure, the cop killed someone. But it was self defense, a necessary action to save him, and the lives of innocents in the house. It’s tragic, sure. But definitely not murder.

Take the same cop. He goes home that very same night, proud of himself for having saved some lives. He finds his wife in bed with the local mailman, the man he just saved. Determined to get revenge, the next day he waits on his front porch for the mailman, and shoots him dead.

We would absolutely consider this murder. This is a premeditated act, meant to end the life of the mailman. This isn’t done in a rage or in a momentary bout of insanity. This is cold-blooded killing.

I bring these two examples up to prove several points: First, we don’t judge the morality of an action like murder based upon who does it. We base it upon circumstances. The cop in the first scenario is free of the murder charge because of the circumstances, not because of his badge. More importantly, he is committing murder in the second scenario despite his badge.

Secondly, his previous day’s heroics will in no way lessen the moral impact of what he’s done (even if it does somehow lessen the extent of his punishment.) It doesn’t matter if he saved the mailman’s life yesterday. He still has no right to kill him today. Anyone who would argue otherwise is morally warped.

The funny thing? These are frequent apologetic responses to the question of YHWH’s evil acts. “God made you, so he can kill you. That’s not murder!” As I’ve shown, this statement is morally bankrupt. Being indebted to someone for your life (what ever that means) doesn’t give them the right to take it.

Likewise, we should not give God a pass merely because he is God. We wouldn’t do it for anything else, so why God? We are interested in his actions, not his status. His actions, after all, are what many Christians point to when regaling us with tales of his magnificence. Why, then, should that same line of reasoning fail to secure a conviction when used the opposite way? I’ll cover this more in my next section.

Additionally, many have claimed God’s actions with the first born are not murder because he had no choice. This is fallacious on several levels. As I’ve already pointed out, YHWH is responsible for the Pharaoh’s stubbornness. He caused it. Ergo, his response to Pharaoh’s stubbornness (killing the first born) is also his responsibility. We are then left with the conclusion that god wanted to murder the first born of Egypt. He is therefore labeled exceedingly evil, all good deeds aside.

If YHWH did not know his actions would lead to the slaughter of innocent babies, then he is an idiot- and this entire debate is a waste.

Finally, the “God has no choice” argument would suggest that a human is capable of leaving god with no options, thereby robbing him of omnipotence.

So to sum up:

1) God caused the Pharaoh to be stubborn. He must have known that the end result would be the slaughter of babies in their cribs, but God did it anyway. Thus, he is evil.

2) Just because god created a human being doesn’t give him/her/it the right to arbitrarily take that life. In no other sphere of moral discourse is this dichotomy allowed to flourish, so we shall not stand for it here. Thus, he is evil.

3) God murdered babies. God, being all powerful, could’ve done a million other things to get the Jews out of captivity, including merely teleporting them out of that whole mess himself with a godly-flourish. Instead, he murders babies in their crib (babies who have done nothing wrong, babies who have committed no crime) in a pissing contest with the Pharaoh so that Moses may brag about it later. Thus, he is evil.

Judging God by “Human” Standards

I’ve often been told that I have no right to judge god by my “frail human standards”. What I consider to be evil is simply an insufficient perspective. As an ignorant human, I can’t possibly begin to understand the nature of god, much less the nature of his actions and intentions.

I will accept this term on one condition.

If I am not allowed to judge god as evil by his supposed actions, neither are Christians allowed to judge him as good by his supposed actions.

If the Christian criticism is valid – if we really can’t judge god with our “frail” standards of morality – then I submit, in the interest of consistency, that they cease telling us all how great god is. Included in this stipulation is every verse in the bible that speaks to god’s “goodness” and “benevolence” by pointing out all the fantastic things he’s done.

Of course, I don’t expect this term to ever be reached. I see it as perfectly inevitable that on the one hand I shall be regaled with tales of god’s goodness as evidenced by his deeds, while on the other hand, deeds that are less than worthy shall be brushed aside, their ultimate impact “unknowable”.

It is with my above argument that I can use my human standard of evil to judge the god of Christianity. Christians have been using the human standard to judge god since his creation. I’m calling for some uniformity in the matter. If a Christian wants to point to some deeds of god as “good”, and if that Christian thinks these deeds portray god as good, then they have to accept the alternative: that various other deeds, in this instance evil, must attest to god’s evil nature. Otherwise, they are hypocrites, and unworthy of critical debate or attention.

Ty

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Bible John,

Please note that your next statement is now overdue. You will have 3 day grace period, however, extending your deadline to June 11.

Thank you for your consideration,

- NS, FD Moderator

[Bible John]

I wish to apologize for my tardiness in this debate, but I have been very busy as of late preaching the gospel on Usenet, defending the faith and building my website. Many atheists that are reading this debate know well how busy I am preaching the word in Usenet and building my website. Also please do understand that debating skeptics is not exactly my strength since I seem to have “little” persuasive power. I am a very dogmatic and bold fundamentalist. To me things are usually black and white. So writing out my responses does take a little more time.

Well anyways let’s get on to the debate.

I will show in this round (or at least strive to show) that the God of the bible is not evil. I will use Gods Holy Word and some theological sources to do so.

THE ORIGIN OF EVIL

Before we dive in, we must first talk about the origin of evil. The Theologian Irenaeus helps explain evil below in his essay.

God made humanity to be master of the earth and of all which was there…Yet this could only take place when humanity had attained its adult stage…Yet humanity was little, being but a child. It had to grow and reach full maturity….God prepared a place for humanity which was better than this world… a paradise of such beauty and goodness that the Word of God constantly walked in it, and talked with humanity; prefiguring that future time when he would live with human beings and talk with them, associating with human beings and teaching them righteousness. But humanity was a child; and its mind was not yet fully mature; and thus humanity was easily led astray by the deceiver (Christian Theology Reader, 174).

I can smell some Armenian theology in this essay but nevertheless the root substance of this essay is accurate. The devil Satan deceived mankind, and mankind fell into sin. This story is told in Genesis chapter 3. It was not God that made man sin, like many atheists argue. God gave mankind a freewill, and sadly mankind chose to disobey God. Why did mankind disobey God? Mankind was deceived by the devil by their fleshly lusts.

The full account of the origin of sin can be found in Genesis 3:1-7. Please note that reading this passage in the NIV translation might make it easier to understand.

I understand that the skeptics do not believe that this story is true. They doubt the Word of God, yet criticize God and blame all evil in our world on Him. The cults and Spiritual Terrorists believe the bible is God’s Holy Word, yet often take scripture out of context, and built doctrines on them, and include their isegesis into the bible. A cult or Terrorist would not argue that God is evil, because they have read the bible. However this alone does not save them. There is a passage in James that says that the demons themselves know the true nature of God, yet do not believe in Him. The cults know the nature of God, yet do not have a relationship with him. I think if the Atheists and other skeptics read the bible in its context, they too would understand from an intellectual level who God is and know that He is not evil. But knowing this does not guarantee a relationship with God or save someone from their sins. But needless I believe it be very foolish to label God as evil and responsible for all the wickedness, when the bible makes it very clear, even to unbelievers that God is not.

ALL MANKIND IS EVIL

My opponent in his Introduction claims the following "We all commit evil acts. But this is not enough to brand us as "evil." On the contrary I would very much differ. The bible makes it very clear that all men are evil and no one seeks after God.

For it is written

(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Rom 6:23 KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In another passage the bible says that there is none that seeks after God, because everyone seeks after their own desires. A loving and just God would need to punish evil. I believe that the atheists have a misconception about God, which has been taught to them by the misled contemporary evangelical church. In many churches the only attribute of God that is addressed is His love. God’s Justice, and his wrath are usually not mentioned in their sermons. So it makes perfect sense why atheists that attend these types of churches on occasion I presume (Christmas and New Years) would believe that the God of the bible is evil. They believe this, because the weak contemporary preachers do not boldly preach the full counsel of God as they should. Please note that I by no means am saying that the contemporary evangelical pastors are spiritual terrorists, cults or antichrists. What I am saying, is that many of them are misled by the Seeker Church and Emerging Church growth movements which way too often focuses too much on humanistic and sensationalist worldly philosophies instead of on the scriptures.

THE SKEPTICS PROBLEM WITH EVIL

Let’s address some of the charges that the critics of the gospel have against evil and the God of the bible according to my Dictionary of Historical theology. “Evil the apparent contradiction in the coexistence of evil and a good God is perhaps the commonest charge leveled by critics against theism. A number of philosophical systems have tried to resolve this dilemma by offering a different view of either the nature of evil or the nature of God” (New Dictionary of Theology).
First I'd like to point out that for me it would be foolish to try and explain nitty gritty details of God and then to doubt God, because I cannot provide a scientific explanation for an aspect of God. For me it is good enough to know that the Holy Spirit indwells in me. I do not need to address all the skeptics’ problems, for I cannot nor will I able to explain it until I get to Heaven. My bible is 100% true and was written by men who were moved by God's Holy Spirit.

NASB
[2Ti 3:16] All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

[2Pe 1:20] But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, [21] for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

The problem with the doubters is that they lack the Holy Ghost, so this is why they continue to doubt God, and use the concept of evil to build on their pre conceptions that God does not exist. I know as these atheists and other doubters like to continually hound and attack me on the Usenet newsgroups. My apologetic targets there are the false Christians and antichrists, which claim to represent the God of the bible, but in reality, represent Satan. But no matter how many times I can say this, the atheists and other doubters continue to attack me like I am one of their primary targets. But these doubters have been blinded by Satan and why they cannot see nor understand the truths of scripture.

[2Co 4:4] in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

If the doubters had the Holy Spirit, then they would see these issues from the same lens as the Christian does, but they lack that supernatural power.

Atheists typically like to look at the God of the bible as evil, solely because of the examples in the bible of Gods people murdering others, or God himself murdering others. I have no idea what exact passages my opponent will use in his argument, but I will focus on a passage of scripture that I think he might refer too.

Passage #1

Rev 20:15 KJV (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Looking at this passage it makes perfect sense why unbelievers doubt God’s love, and believe God to be evil. They do so, because they fail to understand that God is Just and will pay back evil.

Some scriptures that speak of God’s Justice.

NIV
2 Thes 1:6
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you.

Mal 4:1 KJV For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Imagine that you have a kid, or perhaps you already have children. How would you treat them if they disobey you? Would you be kind and loving to them, and not give them a spanking, or would you discipline them? You discipline them because you love them. But imagine that your kid, one night decided to sneak into your closet and your bedroom, and steals your gun. Then he or she goes out and kills your neighbor. After this murder what would you do? Would you forgive your kid, and not send him or her to jail, or would you immediately not call the police and have your child placed behind bars, or in a mental institution? As for me if my child did such a thing, then he would be immediately placed behind bars. I would do this because I love him or her, but at the same time must carry out the justice that is due to my child. If I only forgave my child, but did not send my child to jail, then I would not be punishing my child by God’s standard. But justice must be carried out. In the same way those that have disobeyed God, and done evil must be punished for their sins. All mankind is evil, and all mankind is in need of a savior. Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, all mankind is doomed to eternity in Hell. All God is doing in this passage is carrying out the justice. How is God evil for doing this?

THE SKEPTICS INABILITY TO READ THE BIBLE IN CONTEXT

My opponent in his introduction says the following about God

“ If YHWH did really bless Job, he also made a bet with Satan to see how much his servant would suffer.”

This is a completely false doctrine and one can find the real story of what happened in Job 1:6-12.

The LORD in this passage never makes a bet with Satan, but only allows Satan to inflict pain and trials upon Job. There is a HUGE difference between the two. Satan by the same token has been allowed by God today to inflict pain and sorrow on God’s people. Satan can inflict sickness and illness on me, but this does not make it God’s fault, nor does it mean that God has placed a bet with Satan. My opponent should read his bible thoroughly before he makes statements like this. Skeptics also like to make reference to the flood and blame God for all that had happened there. They do this, again because they fail to understand the nature and consequence of sin.

God for one created man with a “Free Will” and this means that mankind has been given a choice to sin or obey God. Sadly most of mankind has chosen to disobey God, and follow their own ungodliness. Since sin must be punished, and mankind was wicked, so God punished man with a flood to clean away the evil and spare the righteous. It will happen again, and mankind will once again be punished for its wickedness and many will die. Read the book of Revelation for the details. This is why God sent his Son Jesus to die. He came to save the lost and redeem the sinners so that they can be justified in him and go to Heaven instead of Hell, which is where all of mankind deserves to be (John 3:16-17).

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

The next set of concurrent statements will make up Round 3.


Bible John, please note that your statement exceeded the word limit (as agreed to prior in the parameters), by 95 words. Your statement will be left as is, but please keep future statements within 2000 words.

Thank you for your consideration,

- NS, FD Moderator

[Bible John]

My opponent said the following.

There are certain deeds that will serve to label a person “evil” no matter how much good they’ve done in their life.

I agree with this statement, because the bible makes it clear that there are different degrees of sins.

For it is written

Pro 6:16-19 (NIV)
[Pr 6:16] There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
[17] haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
[18] a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
[19] a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

This is yet one passage of many where I believe the bible says that there are degrees of sins, degrees of punishment in Hell, and degrees of reward in heaven. No I am not trying to say that good works lead to heaven, because this is against what the bible teaches (Eph 2:8-9). But what I am saying is that Hell will be different for different people. For example I believe that the Hell experienced by the false teachers that claim to represent Christ, but teach a doctrine of devils will be much hotter and more severe than the Hell experienced by the atheist. Likewise your comments do hold some water. The greatest sin according to the scriptures is the rejection of the Holy Spirit. If someone is a good person in their life, for example gives to the poor, donates his or her time to mentally challenged people, and does other such things, yet rejects the Holy Spirit he or she has committed the greatest sin of all. This sin alone is enough to lead someone to the grave regardless of their good deeds.

My opponent in his argument that God is evil uses Exodus 13:15 and 10:1.

NIV
[Ex 13:15] When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.’

NIV
[Ex 10:1] Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

My opponent next says this.

Now, I’m no logic professor it seems to me that God, in this scenario, is his own worst enemy. He himself caused the Pharaoh to keep the Jews in captivity. Because of this, he then kills the entire first born population of Egypt.

You know after a first glance I will say that my opponent has made a good case looking at the passage outside of the context of the chapter, the book, the testament and the bible. However if one were to dig deeper beyond surface level (which is the joy of studying the bible) one will find something entirely different than my opponents conclusions. I have consulted a commentary on this one, since this is yet another of the many passages in scripture that require the use of a good commentary to understand. Unfortunately my single volume commentary lacked the adequate substance for this passage of scripture, so I believe the commentary below helps explain. I know you will not be convinced and no atheists or agnostic reading this debate will be convinced, but please do hear Bayliss out.

In the book From Creation to the Cross Albert Bayliss writes.

Was it right for God to harden it? Did Pharaoh harden it first? Much of the discussion on the issue misses the point of these events. Egypt has already violated her privilege as host to Yahweh’s covenant people. She has enslaved them, murdered them, and now rejected any claim of Yahweh to their service for even a few days. Egypt is already due for judgment. Attempts to prove that this Pharaoh hardened his heart first are less than convincing. Yahweh has hardened Pharaoh’s heart so he would do something no sane ruler would ever contemplate: encourage Yahweh to multiply the evidence of his power at Egypt’s expense (From Creation to the Cross, 105).

Bayliss makes it clear that the Pharaoh’s heart was already hardened. God just gave him a harder heart. God gave him over to his sins. In my Homosexuality debate with Pervy I made a reference to Romans chapter 1 and in that passage it says that God gave them over to their lusts. This certainly seem to mean that God at times will hand a person over to his sin. The Homosexuals in Romans already have been convinced that homosexuality is not a sin, and so God has done nothing but ratified that desire. Pharaoh in Exodus already had a heart against God, and so all God does is ratify his desire. Pharaoh had a free will and chose to disobey God. Pharaoh was not some robot as you may claim, but condemned himself in his disobedience.

My opponent in his “Why the killing of the First Born Shouldn’t be Considered Murder” argument does a good job and tells a great story. Then he goes on to say.

The funny thing is that these are frequent apologetic responses to the question of YHWH’s evil acts. “God made you, so He can kill you. That’s not murder!” As I’ve shown, this statement is morally bankrupt. Being indebted to someone for your life (what ever that means) doesn’t give them the right to take it. Likewise, we shouldn’t give God a pass merely because He is God.

You know that God is perfectly just and perfectly good in all ways. God cold never be governed by mans laws. God commanded me never to commit murder (Ex 20:13) and so it is my duty not to do so. It is not my duty to question God, because there are so many things about the Holy God that I will never understand. I believe in my bible and believe in God’s son. I would be wasting a great deal of time, if I would start by trying to prove that God exists or trying to prove what you question. It is by faith and not by sight that I walk.

My opponent then writes

YHWH is responsible for the Pharaoh's stubbornness (killing the first born) is also his responsibility. He caused it...We are then left with the conclusion that God wanted to murder the first born of Egypt. He is therefore labeled exceedingly evil, all good deeds aside.

As mentioned earlier, God did not cause Pharaoh's heart to be hard as it was already hard. God cannot be evil and never was evil. God has always been and always shall be a Just God. It amazes me when people read scriptures out of context like this, and then go and blame their ignorance on God.

I will demonstrate here that Pharaoh’s heart was hard long before God had hardened it with a quote from my NIV Study Bible.

There are nine separate times that the hardening of the Pharaoh’s heart is ascribed to God here. But another nine times Pharaoh hardens his own heart (7:13-14, 22; 8:15, 19, 32; 9:7, 34-35). The Pharaoh alone was the agent of the hardening in each of the first five plagues. Not until the sixth plague did God confirm the Pharaoh's willful action (see 9:12), as he had told Moses he would do. (NIV Study Bible, Zondervan).

Perhaps you misread these passages so I will quote these for you that prove my point that Pharaoh’s heart was hard long before God finished the act by hardening it more.

Exo 7:13-14 KJV And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. (14) And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Exo 7:22 KJV And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exo 8:15 KJV But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exo 8:19 KJV Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exo 8:32 KJV And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exo 9:7 KJV And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Exo 9:34-35 KJV And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. (35) And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.
So it makes no wonder that all God does is fulfill his promise to finally harden Pharaoh’s already hardened heart in 9:12.

Exo 9:12 KJV And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

If YHWH did not know his actions would lead to the slaughter of innocent babies, then he is an idiot-and this entire debate is a waste.

I would not call this debate a waste, for it is my time to speak to you on these matters. Sadly many that read the bible fail to understand it. This is very normal, as even I have problems interoperating various passages of scripture. This is why there are hundreds of bible commentaries, dictionaries, concordances, topical bibles, and other such exegetical refs to help someone understand the scriptures. Believe me as there are tons of bible passages that I do not understand.

Christians have been using the human standard to judge God since His creation.

God was never created. You are teaching or leaning towards a doctrine taught by one of the false teachers. One false teacher group teaches the false doctrine that God was created. This is not what the bible teaches. No chapter and verse indicates that God was created and the Bible is God's holy word (2 Tim 3:16, 2 Pet 1:20-21). This group may not be the most deceptive of the false teacher groups, but this argument holds no water. God could not have been created, for He is God and was always God since and before the beginning of time. The bible is my authority and the bible alone is my standard. I am aware I am debating in an environment that does not understand Christians, but more particularly Christian fundamentalists like me. The world is growing to hate fundamentalists as the scriptures have predicted. So for the world me using the bible alone as my authority is something they will never understand. But I have shown here that the God of the bible is not evil. My opponent has taken scriptures out of context to build a case against God that holds no water. Often the cults and false teachers do this and in all honesty my opponent would do much better in the next round if he would try and read the scriptures in the context.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Tysixtus,

Please note that the time limit to post your next statement has expired. You will be granted a grace period, however, extending your deadline June 27.

Thank you for your consideration,

- NS, FD Moderator

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Tysixtus has requested that his grace period be extended to July 3. I have agreed to grant his request.

- NS, FD Moderator

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Tysixtus's extended grace period has passed and unfortunately I must declare a forfeit. Bible John will now have the opportunity to post a concluding statement if he wishes to. After that, this thread will be closed.

- NS, FD Moderator

[Bible John]

Ladies and Gentleman;

I want to thank you all for being a good audience in this debate. I also wish to thank my opponent for debating me, and NightShade and IIdb for hosting this debate.

I very much hope that Ty is alright and nothing serious happened to him. But if he wishes when appropiate we can debate on another issue. At the moment I am looking for a debate on debt, Cessationalism or the Role of Women In MInistry. However these topics seem more theist vs. Theist, rather than atheist vs. Theist.


Thanks again everyone.


God bless,


John