So I'm Going to be a Godfather

[Starshark]

I'm going to my nephew's Christening tomorrow as his Godfather, along with my girlfriend who's going to be Godmother. My girlfriend is a lapsed Catholic, I'm a born-and-bred Atheist.*

And so the pain-in-the-assery begins. My mother is giving me shit because I have to answer:

Do you promise, with God's help, to maintain a relationship with Evan's parents. Will you do all that you are able to help Evan grow knowing that he is loved by God and able to love others?

...with, 'yes'. In my mother's view, this is me somehow selling out my atheism, because I'm going to answer yes instead of pissing everyone off by saying, 'except for the God bit, yes'.

Look, if God doesn't exist, then all this shit about God in Christenings is just words. It doesn't mean anything. A Godparent is just a recognition of a social role. It doesn't fucking mean you have to believe in God or you are in some way a hypocrite.

Of course, my mother - God love her - can be fucking stupid sometimes. But I'm the only one allowed to say that. :mad:








*Fun fact: I'm the only one in my family who's never been Christened, Baptised, what-have-you. My parents have, because that's what they did in those days (though they are both atheist/agnostic), my brother got roped into being Christened by a friend when he was about eleven. BUT THEY WON'T GET ME :devil3:

[peejay]

Not sure what denomination of church you're going to, but if it's Anglican you need to be christened before you're allowed to be a godparent. If it's Catholic, you have to be confirmed.

(This from my hazy memory, verified by the not-necessarily reliable wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godparent).)

I also think you may have to promise a lot more than you say in your post. I think, when I became godparent to my nephew, I had to declare I was a Christian, and promise to help in bringing up my nephew to be a Christian.

I wouldn't be able to say those things now, and this has been gently hinted to the family, and I haven't been asked to godparent more recent nephews/nieces!

Might be worth checking exactly what words you're going to be expected to say?

[peejay]

On further searching, I found this is on a Methodist website (http://www.sturrychurch.org.uk/pages/baptism.shtml#baptism_promises)- the words of the service... Godparents bits are in bold:

Parents and godparents, the Church receives these children with joy. Today we are trusting God for their growth in faith. Will you pray for them, draw them by your example into the community of faith and walk with them in the way of Christ?
With the help of God, we will.

In baptism these children begin their journey in faith. You speak for them today. Will you care for them, and help them to take their place within the life and worship of Christ's Church?
With the help of God, we will.

To follow Christ means dying to sin and rising to new life with him.
Therefore I ask:

Do you reject the devil and all rebellion against God?
I reject them.
Do you renounce the deceit and corruption of evil?
I renounce them.
Do you repent of the sins that separate us from God and neighbour?
I repent of them.

Do you turn to Christ as Saviour?
I turn to Christ.
Do you submit to Christ as Lord?
I submit to Christ.
Do you come to Christ, the way, the truth and the life?
I come to Christ.



Are you sure you're going to be happy saying stuff like that? As I say, I don't know if you will at the church you're going to, but it might be worth checking!

[Matt the Medic]

Just think of the end-sequence of The Godfather part I while saying that. :p

Matt

[Tom Sawyer]

Just say Yes. This ceremony is for the parents and the baby - it's not about you and it would be inappropriate for you to mess up their special day in order to make some kind of statement.

[Jakanapes]

I couldn't do it.

I've been asked to be a godfather before and when I was told what I'd have to agree to I had to decline.

I'm not going to lie and I'm not going to make a promise I have no intention of keeping.

Will you do all that you are able to help Evan grow knowing that he is loved by God

If you go up there and say those things and you don't mean them, then it's just dishonesty, pure and simple.

It's not even about being an atheist, it's about not being a liar.

That's my take, anyway.

[Revolutionary]

I wouldn't do it myself. I am godfather to my oldest niece, but this happened back when I was religious.

[Don Alhambra]

If it's Catholic, you have to be confirmed.
Not true. When I was 13 I was made godfather to my godfather's son - my little cousin. I wasn't confirmed, and at that point I was pretty definitely an atheist. I just thought it would be cool to be a godfather, so I said the words. :)

[Anat]

Starshark, what are the infant's parents' views on the role of godfather? As long as they don't expect you to participate in the child's religious upbringing and you are comfortable, who cares? (But if they do have such expectations it would be dishonest to pretend.)

[HumanistPR]

Molleen Matsumura wrote a "Sweet Reason" column about an atheist uncle who was asked by his religious brother in law to become a godfather.

The column appeared in HumanistNetworkNews.org on Jan. 19, 2005.

It is reprinted on the www.SweetReason.net website:

http://www.sweetreason.org/2005.htm#January%2019,%202005

(Scroll down to the second advice letter in the column.)

I think she had some good advice pertaining to this situation.

[WishboneDawn]

Starshark, what are the infant's parents' views on the role of godfather? As long as they don't expect you to participate in the child's religious upbringing and you are comfortable, who cares? (But if they do have such expectations it would be dishonest to pretend.)

By becoming a godparents you're not simply promising to be responsible to the child and it's family for it's religious education but to the church community.

If I were an atheist I'd politely refuse the role in the first place. If I had an atheist friend I wanted to involve in my child's life I'd find another meaningful way. That seems a really thoughtless act that asks the atheist to compromise his ethics and essentially lie to a whole lot of people.

[Don Alhambra]

I don't know. If you are a godparent you are responsible for the child's spiritual growth, right? So teach them critical thinking and about different types of mythology. ;)

That's what I'd have done had I not been a) 13 and b) living in a different country to my cousin.

[Starshark]

Starshark, what are the infant's parents' views on the role of godfather? As long as they don't expect you to participate in the child's religious upbringing and you are comfortable, who cares? (But if they do have such expectations it would be dishonest to pretend.)

My brother's an atheist, and my sister-in-law's a fencesitter. They are also fully aware of my atheism. I don't think they expect me to give the kid Bible studies.

[Starshark]

By becoming a godparents you're not simply promising to be responsible to the child and it's family for it's religious education but to the church community.

If I were an atheist I'd politely refuse the role in the first place. If I had an atheist friend I wanted to involve in my child's life I'd find another meaningful way. That seems a really thoughtless act that asks the atheist to compromise his ethics and essentially lie to a whole lot of people.

Have you never lied in your life? Of course not.

I notice you have a child in your profile pic. Assuming the child is old enough for you to communicate it, have you never lied to that child? Of course not.

Maybe the child is too old for you to communicate with it (to the level of sophistication required for lying). Will you never lie to that child? Of course not.

Ethics is all about knowing when to lie, when to keep quiet, and when to tell the truth. Unless you follow the strict pluralistic deontological model (and no-one does, whatever they might pretend... Not even Kant (http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ap85/papers/LyingAndDeception.html)) there will be times when lying is admissable under your ethical system.

It certainly is under mine. If it causes less damage to lie than to tell the truth, I'm going to lie like a bastard.

I'm hardly going to tell my brother, who I care about deeply; and my sister-in-law, who I care about, that I can't be a godfather because I'd either have to lie or piss off the congregation. Does more damage than good, see?

[Joyous]

I'm having trouble understanding what role the parents are asking you to fulfill. If one is not religious, and the other is astride the fence, why are they even going the god-parent route?

[Starshark]

I'm having trouble understanding what role the parents are asking you to fulfill. If one is not religious, and the other is astride the fence, why are they even going the god-parent route?

Click here (http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8583.htm). It isn't all about God.

[Rhea]

Well if they are not religious or devout, and they know your atheism, I'd see no problem. Maybe they are baptizing because of tradition or parental pressure. And so they are lying to keep the peace, and you are being asked to join the game.

If I were atheist, and pressured to perform this ritual, I sure-as-reason wouldn't want an actual religious person in the role of god-parent!! eeek!

[Starshark]

I'm quite willing to give Evan Bible lessons. I doubt the Church would approve, though...

"Now, Evan, if you were happily married and your wife told you she was made pregnant by an angel, would alarm bells be ringing at this point?"

[Rhea]

They weren't even married. :rolling:
Now evan , if your 14yo girlfriend told you....

[southernhybrid]

If you're happy with this, who cares what mom or any other atheist think? What matters is your comfort level, not what anyone else thinks.

Tell mom to stop acting like a fundy. ;)

[WishboneDawn]

Have you never lied in your life? Of course not.

I notice you have a child in your profile pic. Assuming the child is old enough for you to communicate it, have you never lied to that child? Of course not.

Maybe the child is too old for you to communicate with it (to the level of sophistication required for lying). Will you never lie to that child? Of course not.

Ethics is all about knowing when to lie, when to keep quiet, and when to tell the truth. Unless you follow the strict pluralistic deontological model (and no-one does, whatever they might pretend... Not even Kant (http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ap85/papers/LyingAndDeception.html)) there will be times when lying is admissable under your ethical system.

It certainly is under mine. If it causes less damage to lie than to tell the truth, I'm going to lie like a bastard.

I'm hardly going to tell my brother, who I care about deeply; and my sister-in-law, who I care about, that I can't be a godfather because I'd either have to lie or piss off the congregation. Does more damage than good, see?

Yeah, I was thinking about your situation later and realized my response was too general. I discounted your personal experience and your relationship with your brother. Take my comments as my general feeling on the issue but as useful as a bucket of crap when it comes to your situation. It was insensitive. I apologize.

[Stephen_BostonMA]

Hi Starshark,

I am also going to be a Godfather…my niece is being Christened tomorrow. My family is Catholic, but not very observant at all. They attend church only on special occasions such as weddings and funerals, and don’t readily agree with many of the church’s positions (such as those on abortion, birth control, “living in sin”, gay marriage, avoiding meat on Fridays during Lent, the infallibility of the Pope, etc.).

As for me, I am an agnostic. I look at the Christening as something symbolic, done out of tradition, and I am honored to have been asked!

Stephen

[Tao of Pooh]

My brother's an atheist, and my sister-in-law's a fencesitter. They are also fully aware of my atheism. I don't think they expect me to give the kid Bible studies.
Then why are they going through the whole godparent thingie? Why not just call you something else like...mentor or uncle, why do they want some sort of ceremony?




Reincarnation: life's exchange-only policy.

[Zygote]

Why have a marriage ceremony? Why have any traditional ritual?

Ceremonies can have meanings for the participants that are separate or different from the meanings endowed by the religion that spawned them. Sometimes it is easier (familially, socially) to use an existing tradition than to try to explain a new one.

It's funny, but I always envied my cousin who had godparents. My parents weren't religious (neither were hers but they went to church for social reasons) and we didn't do any of those religious rites. I thought it would be cool to have a separate set of adults who were watching out for you and who weren't your parents, someone who could talk to you about life issues without loading it with parental stuff. I don't know if real godparents are anything like that, but that's how my imagination painted them.

[Magnus Armstrong]

I wonder if you can look around and find secular words for the ceremony that will be appropriate. I'm sure this is not the first time this has happened.

Perhaps from a Unitarian service?

[DoubleHelix]

I'm going to be a god parent too! Similar dilemas.

My cousin has asked me. Neither of the parents are religious and completely understand my views on the matter, but want a ceremony anyway - as a sort of rite of passage I suppose. They are happy for me to be a "secular godparent" but aren't really sure how to go about this. At first they wanted me to just go along with the words, but having read what they are I don't think i could really bring myself to do it. Perhaps will give them some ideas about secular naming ceremonies as an alternative and see what they think about them.

Could be my first role as a secular godparent - to protect him from being baptised?

This is obviously much less complicated when the parents are atheists too, but there is still the difficulty of what to call my role. "secular godparent" is a bit of a mouthful.

Any ideas?

[chanson]

My husband is a cultural Catholic, so we chose godparents for both our kids for social/tradition reasons. One of the godparents is my atheist brother another is my LDS sister. They were happy to be chosen for this role even though it isn't part of their tradition.

Of course we didn't have our kids baptized or christened or anything, so their godparents didn't have to deal with this dilemma...