Question for Christians: Of God and Maps

[patchy]

Let us, for a moment, look at the world the way the god of the bible might look down upon it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/loammo/Muslim_Distribution_map.jpg

The green areas, of course, are Islamic. The question is...How do you explain a god who self-identifies as jealous looking down and accepting that the entire stage of the bible, and far beyond, is "in the grasp" of a religion other than his?

I don't have a lot of time for the dodge that "they're all Abrahamic religions, so they're still "His"...the point remains: throughout that huge land mass shaded in green, you can't find more than tiny, isolated pockets of people who believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Even in the map's small, non-Islamic sliver of Israel, Jesus isn't a messiah, isn't a savior. Muslims, of course, view the bible as a flawed document touting a flawed messiah, which they "corrected" with Islam and the Qu'ran.

The "unchanging" god of the OT, who routinely destroyed entire towns and villages for the merest slights against him, looks down and passively accepts this map, which collectively sneers at his rule, rejects his plan for their salvation?

How--and why-- did this god let "his home turf" get away from him? One would think that the geographical area to which this god showed special and dedicated attention would be his and his alone, these two thousand years later.

Christianity failed--most spectacularly in its own backyard. How do you reconcile that with a god who, as written, not only strongly WANTS his way to be followed, but is capable of enforcing this compliance?

[WishboneDawn]

God, as written, is a character developed by men to explain things as they were. The bible describes ideas about God and a people's attempt to reconcile those ideas with what actually happened or explain stuff they couldn't understand. God didn't have that home turf, the people there wrote stories about it being his home turf.

But I think this is a question for the more literal or 'divinely inspired' christians, not me. For most stuff like this, aside from my assumption that there is a God, my responses are pretty much what you might expect from an atheist.

[ELECTROGOD]

Now if god were smart he should have started things in Antartica. That way it would be much less likely to have changed hands in the turf war. Look how long the penguins have been there without changing.

[Ezkerraldean]

this is proof that islam is the true religion! allah akhbar!

[jeffevnz]

So most of India is Muslim? Apparently an area doesn't have to have a majority Muslim population to be considered Muslim on this map.

[patchy]

So most of India is Muslim? Apparently an area doesn't have to have a majority Muslim population to be considered Muslim on this map.

Most of India, of course, is Hindu...so, you're right, this map gives a rather generous shade to Islam, which is the second-most popular religion in India.
There is a pretty strongly pronounced "Hindu belt" in India, with stronger (near-total) adherence to Hinduism, which it looks like "my" map is trying to account for with the blank spot.

The relevance to the OP, though, isn't changed much if we color India Hindu instead of Muslim -- in either case they don't subscribe to the God of the bible's brand of religion, and they don't give a crap about his "son."

Just wondering how Christians account for the fact that Christianity, in 2,000 years, hasn't been able to crack the land it was BORN in, nor much of the surrounding area. And why a jealous god who devotes most of his ten commandments to making sure he's treated as number one...just sits and takes this drubbing these days, as opposed to his Old Testament tantrums over far less.

[DigitalDruid]

So most of India is Muslim? Apparently an area doesn't have to have a majority Muslim population to be considered Muslim on this map.
India has the third largest Muslim population among all countries (after Indonesia and Pakistan), even though the Hindu population is about six times more. May be that's why it is shaded green.

[jeffevnz]

Just wondering how Christians account for the fact that Christianity, in 2,000 years, hasn't been able to crack the land it was BORN in, nor much of the surrounding area...

And I'm totally with you on that. Reminds me of the fact that the people in Jesus's home town thought he was full of shit. (I wish I knew the chapter and verse.)

[lpetrich]

Actually, most of the Middle East had been Xian before it became mostly Muslim; there are still some Xians holding out in various places in the Middle East, notably Israel/Palestine and Lebanon. They're mostly Eastern Orthodox and Catholic, however.

And Middle Easterners were induced to convert to Islam by their Arab conquerors, who imposed a Jizya or "infidel tax" on anyone who refused to believe in Islam.

It must be a great humiliation for Paul's hometown Tarsus to now be mostly Muslim.

[TomboyMom]

Here's another map

http://www.godweb.org/world_relsmall.jpg

[Clivedurdle]

Actually, most of the Middle East had been Xian before it became mostly Muslim; there are still some Xians holding out in various places in the Middle East, notably Israel/Palestine and Lebanon. They're mostly Eastern Orthodox and Catholic, however.

And Middle Easterners were induced to convert to Islam by their Arab conquerors, who imposed a Jizya or "infidel tax" on anyone who refused to believe in Islam.

It must be a great humiliation for Paul's hometown Tarsus to now be mostly Muslim.

So people are muslim because of tax breaks? There is hope yet!

[Sarpedon]

Why is Iran the same color as Tibet and Mongolia? (and southern Chile!)

[MonCapitan2002]

So people are muslim because of tax breaks? There is hope yet!
That was a long time ago. Most of them are Muslim now mostly because of cultural inertia, I bet. Wait, that isn't much of a difference. There is a simple reason why that map is the way it is, though. Gods do not exist and all the ones human being worship are human created fictional characters.

[achristianbeliever]

this map gives a rather generous shade to Islam


I'll say its generous at times. Kenya is only 10% muslim, Ethiopia is 50% muslim but has about 40% Orthodox, Nigeria has about 40% Christians.


throughout that huge land mass shaded in green, you can't find more than tiny, isolated pockets of people who believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.


Define isolated pocket. Is 5% a small pocket? I mean after all its only about what 5% muslim in America? And yet I constantly hear people say Islam is gonna take over America blah blah blah. So what do you mean by isolated pocket because I don't believe 5% is.



How--and why-- did this god let "his home turf" get away from him?


I have two answers for this.

1. Do numbers really matter? The Bible talks about how not everyone will get into Heaven and people will be deceived. By your logic the fact that Christianity is still the number 1 religion in the world still has to count for something? (don't bring up "one day it might not" cause the point is Christianity is today). And in my opinion Africa is proof that God is doing an amazing work. In 1910 a sociologist at a conference (I don't have the name off the top of my head I believe it was in university of Edinburgh) it was believed Islam would dominate Africa and would be the sole religion. In 1900 only 10% of Africa was Christian, today it is now 50% and believed to be on the rise. By your logic doesn't that count for something? In the final analysis though I don't see how numbers really determine whether God is successful or failed.

2. This is totally Biblical. Yes they are both Abrahamic which you reminded us but you forgot to mention what happened next. Abraham had two sons Isaac and Ishmael. And God mentions Ishmael would also be a great nation as well as Isaac. And well let us face it just like Ishmael and Isaac the two do not get along well. So when you mention this whole nation of people who have rejected God my answer is.....cool.

You have just helped to prove the Bible so I thank you for helping me to confirm my faith.

[Gawen]

The "unchanging" god of the OT, who routinely destroyed entire towns and villages for the merest slights against him, looks down and passively accepts this map, which collectively sneers at his rule, rejects his plan for their salvation?...How--and why-- did this god let "his home turf" get away from him? Maybe it's because 'he' knows we can destroy 'him'?



Christianity failed--most spectacularly in its own backyard. How do you reconcile that with a god who, as written, not only strongly WANTS his way to be followed, but is capable of enforcing this compliance? Don't worry. Amerika is enforcing His will. Pretty soon all those oil drums coming out of Iraq and (soon to be) Iran will have that 'Jesus stamp of approval' on them.

[Dryhad]

The faithful have an enormous capacity for double standards. On the one hand, God doesn't care about physical land and the heathens will be judged at a later date (you know, that whole weed parable. It actually makes some degree of sense, in comparison to all the other stuff they believe). However, the reason that the vast majority of religious people chose the religion they have is geographic convenience. They chose the religion their family gave them, or perhaps one that they were converted to by a friend. The hilarious thing is sometimes if you catch one of them out with this, they'll say God willed it (by having Christianity spread to America).

[patchy]

Define isolated pocket.


Look up "isolated pocket" in the dictionary--there's a picture of Christians in the Middle East.

It means a small, statistically irrelevant minority, a tiny toehold eked out by one group vastly outnumbered by another group which surrounds it. Like, say, Christians...on the very ground on which their religion was born.

It's problematic, no matter how casually you try to wave it away.



Is 5% a small pocket? I mean after all its only about what 5% muslim in America?

I'd probably call 5% a small pocket, although, of course, the term is a subjective one, not a mathematically defined ratio. And I've never seen muslims in America even estimated as high as 5%. CIA factbook calls it 1%, which I've seen elsewhere--about the same as Judaism.



And yet I constantly hear people say Islam is gonna take over America blah blah blah.

I doubt this. No sane person is seriously predicting that Islam is going to "take over America." At any rate, the rantings that you may or may not hear from some loony at a coffee shop don't count for much.



So what do you mean by isolated pocket because I don't believe 5% is.

The "small pockets" phrase, unfortunately, has sidetracked you into an irrelevant detour around the main issue here. It's not some formula, by which 4% constitutes a small pocket and yet 6% is a "significant minority."
An isolated pocket is an isolated pocket. See also: African-American hockey players, white rappers, and Christians in the Middle East. The land in which their religion was first conceived.





I have two answers for this.

1. Do numbers really matter?


Yes. In this context, they do. The point, again, is that Christianity has lost its home turf to another religion, and not by slim percentage points. Not even the "holy ground" upon which the savior was born, God smote all his enemies, delivered his covenant, directed the Exodus, sacrificed his only-begotten son, yadda yadda yadda...not even THAT very ground is witness to Christianity today.




The Bible talks about how not everyone will get into Heaven and people will be deceived.

Equally to the point, I like cheese.



By your logic the fact that Christianity is still the number 1 religion in the world still has to count for something?

Pretty slim reed you're hanging onto there. You sound almost desperate.
The point, still, is that the entire stage of the bible, and well beyond, didn't "stay Christian." That seems noteworthy to me, weak apologetics aside.



(don't bring up "one day it might not" cause the point is Christianity is today).

Ah. So you DO know that, based on projections, Islam is going to outpace Christianity before long. Guess it's okay with you that your religion's "truths" don't quite seem to be timeless and universal, as advertised.


And in my opinion Africa is proof that God is doing an amazing work.

Yes, since by any standard, sub-Saharan Africa certainly isn't a fucking train wreck. :rolleyes:


In 1910 a sociologist at a conference (I don't have the name off the top of my head I believe it was in university of Edinburgh) it was believed Islam would dominate Africa and would be the sole religion. In 1900 only 10% of Africa was Christian, today it is now 50% and believed to be on the rise. By your logic doesn't that count for something?

So, since some sociologist whose name you don't have handy guessed wrong, in 1910, about just HOW badly Christianity would be trounced in Africa, that "counts" as some sort of victory?


In the final analysis though I don't see how numbers really determine whether God is successful or failed.

It isn't just raw numbers, per se. If it were based only on raw numbers, as we've seen, Christianity "wins"--at least for now. Ad populum arguments don't tell this particular story, though. The point, as originally, is that Christianity has been a spectacular failure IN IT'S BIRTHPLACE.

Christianity's numerical advantage is owed to countries which didn't exist in biblical times; take America out of the picture and see what that does to Christianity's numbers.

2. This is totally Biblical. Yes they are both Abrahamic which you reminded us but you forgot to mention what happened next. Abraham had two sons Isaac and Ishmael. And God mentions Ishmael would also be a great nation as well as Isaac. And well let us face it just like Ishmael and Isaac the two do not get along well. So when you mention this whole nation of people who have rejected God my answer is.....cool.

Umm..wow. You don't have much of an answer to my question, do you?

You have just helped to prove the Bible so I thank you for helping me to confirm my faith.

No problem--don't mention it. The nice thing is, once you've turned off a major part of your intellect, everything you see will help you confirm your faith. Look--a tree! Praise Gawd! So-and-so had a baby..and it was healthy! Praise Gawd! A carload of teens got drunk and rolled their car, and one of them lived! Paraplegic now, but, hey-- Praise Gawd!

[Spitfire]

And I'm totally with you on that. Reminds me of the fact that the people in Jesus's home town thought he was full of shit. (I wish I knew the chapter and verse.)Mark 6:3

Okay, make up your minds people. Whatever happened to all the whining about the crusades and how all those evil Christians slaughtered so many helpless muslims?

As for myself, I think the main thing that went wrong was that Christianity was weakened by division and laxity within itself. Which is still a problem today.

[Ubercat]

God, as written, is a character developed by men to explain things as they were. The bible describes ideas about God and a people's attempt to reconcile those ideas with what actually happened or explain stuff they couldn't understand. God didn't have that home turf, the people there wrote stories about it being his home turf.

But I think this is a question for the more literal or 'divinely inspired' christians, not me. For most stuff like this, aside from my assumption that there is a God, my responses are pretty much what you might expect from an atheist.

Then why bother calling yourself a christian?:huh: Just go on about your life, believing in A god.

-Ubercat

[hinduwoman]

Originally Posted by achristianbeliever
This is totally Biblical. Yes they are both Abrahamic which you reminded us but you forgot to mention what happened next. Abraham had two sons Isaac and Ishmael. And God mentions Ishmael would also be a great nation as well as Isaac. And well let us face it just like Ishmael and Isaac the two do not get along well. So when you mention this whole nation of people who have rejected God my answer is.....cool.

But it nowhere says in the Bible that descendants of Ishmael are the Arabs. It is the Koran that first started this propaganda.

[Stumpjumper]

Christianity failed--most spectacularly in its own backyard. How do you reconcile that with a god who, as written, not only strongly WANTS his way to be followed, but is capable of enforcing this compliance?

My answer:

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

[patchy]

My answer:

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Play pastor for me, and interpret what the above verse means, in your words, so that I may better understand how you use it to explain Christianity failing to keep hold of its own birthplace.

Bible verses, on their own, can mean just about anything. What does that one mean, specifically, to you...in terms of today?

[Stumpjumper]

Play pastor for me, and interpret what the above verse means, in your words, so that I may better understand how you use it to explain Christianity failing to keep hold of its own birthplace.

Sure. It's fun to play Pastor :D

First, it depends upon what you mean by "Christianity" and what you consider it's birthplace... As point of fact, the birthplace of institutional Christianity would be the Greco-Roman world where Paul was a traveling preacher... In that regards, it still has a stronghold.

Additionally, Christianity as preached by Jesus was a way of life and impacted our daily actions not just where we went to worship and which day of the week that worship occurred... In that sense, even non-Christians are affected by Christianity in a different way...

Mohammed wrote the Qur'an four centuries after Christ and I doubt anyone could argue that he was not affected by the message of Jesus Christ.

Bible verses, on their own, can mean just about anything. What does that one mean, specifically, to you...in terms of today?

It means that God does not respect what we call ourselves and/or what name we give Him. It means that even if someone worships him in a depraved manner (like non-Christians ;) ) he will still accept them if they love him and work righteousness for him...

[achristianbeliever]

I doubt this. No sane person is seriously predicting that Islam is going to "take over America." At any rate, the rantings that you may or may not hear from some loony at a coffee shop don't count for much.


But it gives them fire to believe and to act on it. Here is an example of one of those loonies:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33898
(Note: I do not necessarily reflect the same opinions as this website its just an example)
The point is even a small isolated pocket can impact a society. At least I believe it can.


And I've never seen muslims in America even estimated as high as 5%.


Well it was a hypothetical number not a certified census when I mentioned it.

The "small pockets" phrase, unfortunately, has sidetracked you into an irrelevant detour around the main issue here.


Then you shouldn't have brought it up. The point is by bringing it up your basically saying there is a specific size that determines whether a pocket of inviduals is a success or a failure. Let's take atheism. The best estimate I've ever heard is that there are 200-240 million atheists in the world. And most of those are from places like China. Where I don't think you can say they became atheists mainly due to logic and reason. At least I hope not. Example of a website on this topic
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Nonreligious

200 million out of 6 billion? That also sounds like what you would call a small number. Or to put it in your words: "small isolated pocket". So would you say that atheism has failed? If the answer is no then Christianity hasn't failed in Africa and the middle East because its a "small isolated pocket".


The point, again, is that Christianity has lost its home turf to another religion


So? There have been plenty of biblical examples where that's happened. Judges for instance. You still haven't explained why God isn't allowed to let that happen.


God smote all his enemies, delivered his covenant, directed the Exodus, sacrificed his only-begotten son, yadda yadda yadda...not even THAT very ground is witness to Christianity today.


So what? Once again that is not unusual. It can't just be significant because you say it has to be.


Pretty slim reed you're hanging onto there. You sound almost desperate.


I was following your logic as I said here:

By your logic


So if I sound desperate its because I was following your own logic. You kind of screwed yourself here. Nice going.


Ah. So you DO know that, based on projections, Islam is going to outpace Christianity before long. Guess it's okay with you that your religion's "truths" don't quite seem to be timeless and universal, as advertised.


HA! I knew you would do that. And the fact is no I don't believe that. In fact after reading Philip Jenkins The Next Christendom I believe Christianity is gonna grow even further thanks to rise increases in Africa and Asia (what you would call the Christian homeland). Any model I personally agree with tells me that Christianity is gonna stay above Islam for at least 200 more years by at least 13%. After that I have no idea one way or the other. Now tell me where I said the words "Islam is gonna outpace Christianity".

Here is an example of a website that says Christianity is not gonna decline.
http://www.gordonconwell.edu/ockenga/globalchristianity/gd/gd04.pdf
If you disagree with it fine but don't just complain about any source I give would you please give a source that runs counter to it?

In my opinion if there is one religion that is in alot of trouble its atheism. It will be consumed by Islam in the future. Especially in Europe.


Yes, since by any standard, sub-Saharan Africa certainly isn't a fucking train wreck.


Actually I find Europe and Canada to be in much more trouble and it will be places like Africa that will eventally replace them. Its why I'm moving to Kenya at the end of the summer and I'll be teaching there. "Oh no the Christian fundamentalist is gonna to be teaching Africans".


So, since some sociologist whose name you don't have handy guessed wrong, in 1910, about just HOW badly Christianity would be trounced in Africa, that "counts" as some sort of victory?


Yep and I just found the name again. J. R. Mott and it was Edinburgh in 1910 at a ecumenical conference.

Would you mind telling me what victories atheism has enjoyed so I can compare?


It isn't just raw numbers, per se. If it were based only on raw numbers, as we've seen, Christianity "wins"--at least for now. Ad populum arguments don't tell this particular story, though. The point, as originally, is that Christianity has been a spectacular failure IN IT'S BIRTHPLACE.

Christianity's numerical advantage is owed to countries which didn't exist in biblical times; take America out of the picture and see what that does to Christianity's numbers.


If you take America out of the picture Christianity is gonna accomplish major success.
According to Philip Jenkins "The Next Christendom"
Latin America will go from 480 million today-640 million by 2025
Africa will go from 360 million-633 million
Asia will go from 313 million-460 million
This is of course assuming there is no great gains or losses due to conversion or some other contingencies.

In the final analysis North America will be just a small blip on the screen. By 2050 it is believed 1/5 of the world's Christians will be non-hispanic whites. Your problem is you base Christianity purely on its Western applications as though there is no other kind.


Umm..wow. You don't have much of an answer to my question, do you?


Wow you haven't really done anything to counter what I've said in my entire post have you? You asked me why God let his home turf get away from him (your words) and I gave you a biblical answer. You haven't done a single thing to counter anything that I've said. All you've basically have done is say that God's main homeland is going to another religion and blah blah blah they witnessed God's miracles blah blah blah. yet you haven't done anything to say why God isn't allowed to let that happen. Is it against some biblical quote that's God's people will turn away from him?

And besides I believe Africa and Asia (God's home continents) are showing more success than the non-home continents like North America and of course Europe.

This thread was your idea to show how Africa, Asia got away from God. And you know what? Your right it did for so many centuries.

Estimated loss and increase of Christianity from "The Next Christendom"

Year
500 1000 1200 1500
Africa
8% 5% 2% 1.3%
Asia
21% 16% 21% 3.4%
Europe
14% 28% 46% 76%

Yet now Africa and Asia are seeing tremendous growth. So by your logic God having lost the two main continents as some sort of argument against him then by your logic the fact that now Christianity is coming back to those places is evidence for God.

This is your logic I'm using. Unless you show some sort of counter evidence against what I've said your own logic is proving you wrong.

[Jedi Mind Trick]

200 million out of 6 billion? That also sounds like what you would call a small number. Or to put it in your words: "small isolated pocket". So would you say that atheism has failed? If the answer is no then Christianity hasn't failed in Africa and the middle East because its a "small isolated pocket".
ACB, you must remember that atheism doesn’t claim to be on good terms with an all powerful and jealous being. No patronage from above, if you will. Therefore, Christianity does stand out a little bit more as a sore thumb than humble atheism.

[patchy]

Let's take atheism.

200 million out of 6 billion? That also sounds like what you would call a small number. Or to put it in your words: "small isolated pocket". So would you say that atheism has failed? If the answer is no then Christianity hasn't failed in Africa and the middle East because its a "small isolated pocket".

This answer might surprise you, but...yes. I would say that, for now, atheism has "failed", at least numerically, in that it lags far behind not just particular world religions but especally world religions taken as an aggregate. Unfortunately, the need for religion seems almost hard-wired into most people, and almost every culture has seen fit to invent a multitude of gods to serve this need.

Then again, at one time almost everyone on earth thought it was flat...except for an "isolated pocket" of people who suspected it was round.
Atheists in 2006 are, in my opinion, simply "ahead of their time."

Furthermore, atheism can't "fail" by the same yardstick as Christianity, because it's not a worldview that insists on converting others to it. When atheists show up banging on your door on a Saturday morning to ask you if you're ready to reject Jesus Christ, you let the rest of us know.



You still haven't explained why God isn't allowed to let that happen.

Because the character of God, as written in the OT, said he wouldn't let it happen. Let's see, how does the Ten Commandments start out, again?

"God spoke all these words, saying: I am the Lord your God,who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slavery. Do not have any other gods before Me. Do not represent [such] gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land. Do not bow down to [such gods] or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship.

Hmm. Demands exclusive worship, does he? Somebody has an almost exclusive lock on worship in that area, and far beyond, and here's a hint: his name is Allah.

All throughout the bible, god is described as being almost petulant about being exclusively worshipped--wiping out entire villages and cities who fail to heed the warnings. How this unchanging god NOW looks down on THIS map and shrugs it off is an inconsistency that you haven't come CLOSE to addressing with your dodges.

God isn't "allowed" to just scratch his ass and watch his territory go to other gods because he wasn't written that way--he was painted into a corner by the goatherders who made Him in their image.



HA! I knew you would do that. And the fact is no I don't believe that.

Well then you're wrong. You don't have to believe the sun will come up tomorrow. But it will.

And Islam is going to outpace Christianity in terms of total worldwide adherents. With or without your approval.

It's just like Hispanics outpacing African-Americans in the United States, and usurping them as the largest minority. The unmistakable trend was picked up long ago, the forecasts made, and now it's happened. I'm sure some people, for whatever reason, didn't want it to be true, but wishes sure didn't stop it from happening, as predicted.

Islam, for what it's worth, will overtake Christianity for the number one position among the world religions. Will that make it more "valid" in my book? Nope. It'll just be the answer to a trivia question, that used to have a different answer.

In fact after reading Philip Jenkins The Next Christendom I believe Christianity is gonna grow even further thanks to rise increases in Africa and Asia (what you would call the Christian homeland). Any model I personally agree with tells me that Christianity is gonna stay above Islam for at least 200 more years by at least 13%.

Ah-- you get those results from...let's see...any model that you "personally agree with." Well, you certainly couldn't be more objective than that. :D

Do you hear yourself? Do you know how silly that sounds? You only listen to models which you personally agree with, and of course you only agree with models which tell you that Christianity won't be passed up by Islam.

Look up "circular logic." That might help.



In my opinion if there is one religion that is in alot of trouble its atheism.

That's just stupid. You see, atheism isn't a religion. Yeah, I know it's kind of fashionable among the mouth-breathing crowd to call it one, but you really ought to know better than that.


Its why I'm moving to Kenya at the end of the summer and I'll be teaching there. "Oh no the Christian fundamentalist is gonna to be teaching Africans".

Oh, goody. Nothing more charming than pompous idealogues going out to tell the savages how they should be living their lives. The Spanish did the Incas the same favor.



You asked me why God let his home turf get away from him (your words) and I gave you a biblical answer. You haven't done a single thing to counter anything that I've said. All you've basically have done is say that God's main homeland is going to another religion and blah blah blah they witnessed God's miracles blah blah blah. yet you haven't done anything to say why God isn't allowed to let that happen. Is it against some biblical quote that's God's people will turn away from him?

No, but it's against biblical quotes that Yahweh will just sit and let other gods muscle in on his special territory:

Exodus 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

And yet Allah is the name on virtually all lips in this area.


Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

And yet they didn't utterly overthrow them, but instead got utterly overthrown.


Exodus 23:31--33: And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.

And yet the area described is, has been, and likely will remain, firmly Islamic. Nobody got "driven out" before thee, except maybe Christians.

Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
Stay away from those that believe differently than you. Do not make treaties with them or allow them to live in your land.

Don't look now, but...look who's living in "your" land.

They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

And yet they DO dwell in thy land.

Exodus 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

You guessed it: Thy borders didn't get enlarged. Erased, yes.

2 Kings 17:26 Wherefore they spake to the king of Assyria, saying, The nations which thou hast removed, and placed in the cities of Samaria, know not the manner of the God of the land: therefore he hath sent lions among them, and, behold, they slay them, because they know not the manner of the God of the land.

Umm...these lions.

Any time soon, are they going to descend on Baghdad, Cairo, Tehran, Riyadh, and other cities that...know not the manner of the god of the land?
Would you fear these killer lions if you were living in an Islamic republic in the Middle East?

Because I don't think I would.

[aa5874]

Patchy, what yardstick are you using to say Muslims will outnumber Christians? Recently, I was looking at the stats of HIV Aids cases in Africa and I noticed that Muslim countries have an extremely low rate compare to those where Christianity is the main religion. For example South Africa has in excess of 20 infected persons per hundred and Lybia to the North has less than 5 per thousand. But what is most devastating is that the life expectancy in South Africa is only 43 years and in Libya 77 years.

[MonCapitan2002]

I'll say its generous at times. Kenya is only 10% muslim, Ethiopia is 50% muslim but has about 40% Orthodox, Nigeria has about 40% Christians.



Define isolated pocket. Is 5% a small pocket? I mean after all its only about what 5% muslim in America? And yet I constantly hear people say Islam is gonna take over America blah blah blah. So what do you mean by isolated pocket because I don't believe 5% is.




I have two answers for this.

1. Do numbers really matter? The Bible talks about how not everyone will get into Heaven and people will be deceived. By your logic the fact that Christianity is still the number 1 religion in the world still has to count for something? (don't bring up "one day it might not" cause the point is Christianity is today). And in my opinion Africa is proof that God is doing an amazing work. In 1910 a sociologist at a conference (I don't have the name off the top of my head I believe it was in university of Edinburgh) it was believed Islam would dominate Africa and would be the sole religion. In 1900 only 10% of Africa was Christian, today it is now 50% and believed to be on the rise. By your logic doesn't that count for something? In the final analysis though I don't see how numbers really determine whether God is successful or failed.

2. This is totally Biblical. Yes they are both Abrahamic which you reminded us but you forgot to mention what happened next. Abraham had two sons Isaac and Ishmael. And God mentions Ishmael would also be a great nation as well as Isaac. And well let us face it just like Ishmael and Isaac the two do not get along well. So when you mention this whole nation of people who have rejected God my answer is.....cool.

You have just helped to prove the Bible so I thank you for helping me to confirm my faith.
Circular logic does not constitute proof.

[patchy]

Patchy, what yardstick are you using to say Muslims will outnumber Christians?

Almost all unbiased sources, those who don't have a vested and pointed interest in the outcome, predict that Islam will slowly surpass Christianity in terms of total adherents sometime in the 21st century.

Of course Evangelical Christian forecasters (the only kind achristianbeliever would likely listen to, since he'd "personally agree" with them in advance) are going to act as if this takeover is impossible. Real world trends, of course, aren't dependant on any particular group's wishes, desires, or biases, they just...happen.

Religioustolerance.org is one of the best sites I've seen at staying objective while presenting a wide range of information on religious topics:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/growth_isl_chr.htm

Some highlights:


The growth rate of Christianity, according to the U.S. Center for World Mission, is very close to the growth rate of the world's population. The percentage of Christians in the world has remained almost constant for decades.

Samuel Huntington predicts that Islam will overtake Christianity early in the 21st century. By the year 2025, Islam will have 5% more adherents than will Christianity.

The U.S. Center for World Mission estimated in 1997 that Christianity's total number of adherents is growing at about 2.3% annually. This is approximately equal to the growth rate of the world's population. Islam is growing faster: about 2.9% and is thus increasing its market share. At this rate, Islam would surpass Christianity as the world's main religion by 2023 CE.

Most Christian sources predict that Christianity will retain its numerical lead over Islam beyond the year 2025. For example, futurist John Gary stated in 1997: "In no probable statistical scenario reaching out to the year 2200, does Islam surpass Christianity in absolute number of adherents."



Well, what else would a "Christian source" say?

Only those who don't have a horse in this race can objectively plot a winner.
Samuel Huntington is in a far better vantage point from which to make predictions than "a Christian source" that suffers from a priori assumptions stemming from dogma.



Recently, I was looking at the stats of HIV Aids cases in Africa and I noticed that Muslim countries have an extremely low rate compare to those where Christianity is the main religion. For example South Africa has in excess of 20 infected persons per hundred and Lybia to the North has less than 5 per thousand. But what is most devastating is that the life expectancy in South Africa is only 43 years and in Libya 77 years.

Yup--I've seen that as well; in fact the low AIDS rate among Muslims is almost always touted as one of the factors behind Islam's growth rate. Muslims are, inarguably, less promiscuous than adherents of other faiths...which comes with a side benefit of making them far less vulnerable to AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases.


Honestly, though, all this obsession about which faith will have more adherents by which date is somewhat irrelevant-- it's an ad populum argument either way. It's not as if the sheer number of its adherents determines a religion's "truth."

The point is:

The god of the bible, as written, is unmistakably clear about one thing: He's a very jealous god, and he doesn't want any pretenders stealing the spotlight away from him. This petulance is the centerpiece of the Ten Commandments. The contradiction inherent in this "unchanging" God looking down and seeing the entire region that served as the bible's setting flying a Muslim flag, with only (sorry) isolated pockets of "His" believers scattered here or there...is not something which can be casually waved off.

His authors painted him into this corner with their over-worked "absolutes" and probably told one too many horror story of Yahweh wiping out entire cities who didn't accept his rule. The god of the bible would not only clearly WANT the whole region (if not entire world) to be "his", the god of the bible would clearly be ABLE to force compliance were he not getting it.

If he were real, of course.

If NOT, and faiths come and go based on cultural and societal shifts as populations change, territories change, wars occur, and so on...and there ARE no "jealous gods" anxious and able to rain destruction down on rebellious non-believers, it suddenly makes a lot more sense, this observation that Islam owns the bible's home turf.

This map, once you see it in its correct context, is just another proof that Yahweh-- like Ra and Zeus before him...doesn't exist. The faithful will frantically try to spin this map in whatever direction they think "saves" their god from such a fate, but they fool only themselves.

The bible is bunk, folks. It's time to get on with our lives in the real world.