My Dilema (apparitions)

[D2_Supreme]

Its been quite a while since I've visited IIDB. When I first began posting here I was a Christian who had a flare of skepticism within. Now, though this may be hard to comprehend, I'm more of a skeptic with a small flare of Christianity within.

I'm still spiritual, in a sense, in that I believe everything has a deeper meaning or purpose..and that some sort of afterlife is possible--though I have no idea what this afterlife is. I certainly dont ascribe it to any biblical depiction.

I believe in Astrology, as I've done a lot of extensive research on it (the books, not internet stuff)....and what I've found--coming to believe in it--makes me feel as if there is "something deeper"...but just makes me more unsure of what it is.

As for Christianity....MEH. I still find myself making the sign of the cross, or finding some spiritual solace on that rare occasion when I must attend a Church ceremony. As for the belief...."meh" says it best. Its kind of like, "i dont believe...but damn!" -if that makes sense.

Anyways, sitting here i'm just thinking of what I used to say as a proponent of Christianity. I can dismiss a lot of what I used to say except the part on Apparitions. How can the apparitions of Fatima or Guadalupe be effectively dismissed?

Can they even be dismissed?

[Imnotspecial]

I agree with you. Yet I don't believe they are from god. The reason: None of the predictions have really come true. Fraud is perhaps the best explanation.
Look at the predictions of "La Salette" and you will see how absurd most of it was.

[DBT]

I can dismiss a lot of what I used to say except the part on Apparitions. How can the apparitions of Fatima or Guadalupe be effectively dismissed?

Can they even be dismissed?


"Paul Simons writing for The Times on 02/17/2005 in an article entitled "Weather Secrets of Miracle at Fatima", states that he believes it possible that some of the optical effects at Fatima may have been caused by a cloud of dust from the Sahara.

Kevin McClure claims that the crowd at Cova da Iria may have been expecting to see signs in the sun, as similar phenomena had been reported in the weeks leading up to the miracle. On this basis he believes that the crowd saw what it wanted to see. Kevin McClure stated that he had never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts of a case in any of the research he had done in the previous ten years. "[48]

[Dean Anderson]

Erich von Daniken (remember him?) says that the apparitions are the interplanetary holographic communications of extraterrestrials, that have been misinterpreted as being religious figures.

But then Erich von Daniken will say anything if he thinks it will help his books sell...

[ObiKenobi]

Anyways, sitting here i'm just thinking of what I used to say as a proponent of Christianity. I can dismiss a lot of what I used to say except the part on Apparitions. How can the apparitions of Fatima or Guadalupe be effectively dismissed?

Can they even be dismissed?

Is the fact that known of the observers of said miracles couldn't provide a consistent story on what they saw enough?

[Gawen]

I'm still spiritual, in a sense, in that I believe everything has a deeper meaning or purpose..

I believe in Astrology, as I've done a lot of extensive research on it (the books, not internet stuff)....and what I've found--coming to believe in it--makes me feel as if there is "something deeper"...but just makes me more unsure of what it is.
I'm not trying to be 'flip' here...but...if you believe everything has some sort of deeper meaning or purpose you will find a deeper meaning or purpose. The mind seeks the path of least resistance, and a conclusion will be arrived at...such as Astrology.
Credulity, in many cases, believes everything except the truth. A great many people believe in astrology, but who could convince them of the vastness of astronomical spaces, the speed of light, or the billions of suns and constellations and planets and their relative movement to them? Who of those astrology believing peoples would believe had they been born at the same time on the same day of the year 2,000 years ago, they would have been born under a different sign?
If you long for the spiritually unknown...you will find it somehow to fulfill your 'wanted/expected' needs.

[fromdownunder]

Here is one, admittedly speculative response to Fatima which I gave on another thread: We are talking about religious town/village people here in the middle of a major war.

I suspect if I was a devout Roman Catholic farmer in Portugal during WW1, and I had been told that a 10 year old girl had seen visions for the past five months, I would go to the blow off vision.

Now, it is a very cloudy day, and at one point, the sun breaks through the cloud to a group who have just seen a little girl talking to the Virgin Mary.

She says "look at the sun" after it breaks through the cloud, and the guy standing next to me says, "do you see it?". Maybe he does not see anything either, and it is just a question.

Well, I don't see anything but the sun in a cloud break and sunlight and ground shadows doing wierd things, but I am devoutly religious, and I don't wan't this guy to think that I can't see God's miracle. So I say yes. This spreads through some of the crowd at a pretty rapid rate remember they did not all see the "miracle".

The rest is "history". Pure conjecture of course, but possible. There were purportedly also witnesses many miles away. But as to these, how many hours would it have taken for the crowd to get back and start talking to them? Probably 5-6 hours minimum, and plenty of time to embelish their own belief on the way, so that by the time they get to these other witnesses, they convince them of the truth and the external witnesses somehow believe that they saw what happened.

Look at how Roswell grew.

Norm

[Eowyn]

How can the apparitions of Fatima or Guadalupe be effectively dismissed?

Can they even be dismissed?

I've seen a few good threads on the Fatima apparitions on IIDB, run a search!

[sharon45]

Its been quite a while since I've visited IIDB. When I first began posting here I was a Christian who had a flare of skepticism within. Now, though this may be hard to comprehend, I'm more of a skeptic with a small flare of Christianity within.For me that is not surprising. What is surprising is anyone holding onto christianity.

I'm still spiritual, in a sense, in that I believe everything has a deeper meaning or purpose..and that some sort of afterlife is possible--though I have no idea what this afterlife is. I certainly dont ascribe it to any biblical depiction.Yes, these may be, but there is no way to really tell. Nothing wrong with searching, pondering, and keeping an open mind.

I believe in Astrology, as I've done a lot of extensive research on it (the books, not internet stuff)....and what I've found--coming to believe in it--makes me feel as if there is "something deeper"...but just makes me more unsure of what it is.Well, you are still trying to find your way of sorts.

As for Christianity....MEH. I still find myself making the sign of the cross, or finding some spiritual solace on that rare occasion when I must attend a Church ceremony. As for the belief...."meh" says it best. Its kind of like, "i dont believe...but damn!" -if that makes sense.If you could, I'd like you to elaborate some on this. What made you change your mind?

Anyways, sitting here i'm just thinking of what I used to say as a proponent of Christianity. I can dismiss a lot of what I used to say except the part on Apparitions. How can the apparitions of Fatima or Guadalupe be effectively dismissed?

Can they even be dismissed?I can easily dismiss it for what these supposed witnesses believe it to be.

Why is it that catholics keep seeing mary? In a tree trunk, a sandwich, or an oil slick in a puddle. Maybe it is because they have this extra obsession for mary far above other christians.

It sure isn't because she was anything special or holy because her son certainly wasn't either.

[D2_Supreme]

Thanks for the responses...but I dont think any of you effectively dismissed Fatima [or Guadalupe]. I did enjoy Gawen's commentary and Fromdownunder's hypothetical explanation, though it still seems to stand as some sort of phenomenon witnessed by tens of thousands.

For me that is not surprising. What is surprising is anyone holding onto christianity.

Its only surprising if they attempt to impose their beliefs on others, threaten nonbelievers with condemnation, or attempt to make their beliefs law.

Other than that I dont find it surprising at all, personally.

If you could, I'd like you to elaborate some on this. What made you change your mind?

I dont know exactly...i suppose I became too rational. Religion took a backseat to everything else in my life because it never gave me any reason to keep it in the front seat. I became too distant from my beliefs. I started getting angry at religious explanations for things in the world.

I would read Christian writings....and i would just get mad. My response would be "STFU!!". When things aren't going too good, i need to pray?!?! Not to mention the fact that there are some pretty fucked up Christians. The people who believe that anyone not in their church wont be saved...wow.

I believe we should strive to accomplish the way of life depicted by many religions--a way of life that is built on unity and peace. But we shouldn't accomplish that goal simply because it is "God's will" but because it SHOULD be our will!

There is immense, profound noble truth in many religions. The problem is what becomes wrapped around those truths, and what we do with whats wrapped around it...and what becomes because of what is wrapped around it.

To put it rather simply i just became distant from the belief. I also came to think that Monotheism is illogical, not to mention a very HUMAN monotheistic God.

I believe in something, i just dont know what that something is. Some sort of Providence.

I can easily dismiss it for what these supposed witnesses believe it to be.

Why is it that catholics keep seeing mary? In a tree trunk, a sandwich, or an oil slick in a puddle. Maybe it is because they have this extra obsession for mary far above other christians.

It sure isn't because she was anything special or holy because her son certainly wasn't either.

So you can dismiss the interpretation of the event but you cant dismiss the event itself?

What happens when there are earlier reports of "some miraculous event going down in the name of Christianity coming soon"?

[Viti]

Mass self delusion and/or "Emporors Clothes" syndrome. They experienced what they wanted to experience just like those people that fall down and speak in tongues at tent revivals. If they didn't experience anything, they pretended they did so as not to appear foolish, or unworthy or whatever.