Kenya Fundies vs. National Fossils [merged]

[lpetrich]

PZ Myers reports in Africa: our past, perhaps our future (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/africa_our_past_perhaps_our_fu.php), drawing from Evangelicals urge museum to hide man's ancestors (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/12/wleakey12.xml), that some Kenya fundies want Kenya's National Museum to put its hominid-fossil exhibits in a back room instead of very prominently out in front.
As part of an ongoing expansion funded by the EU, the National Museums of Kenya, which manages the country's cultural sites, is conducting a survey to determine what visitors to its Nairobi headquarters most want to see.

Church leaders aim to hijack that process. "The Christian community here is very uncomfortable that Leakey and his group want their theories presented as fact," said Bishop Bonifes Adoyo, the head of Christ is the Answer Ministries, the largest Pentecostal church in Kenya.

"Our doctrine is not that we evolved from apes, and we have grave concerns that the museum wants to enhance the prominence of something presented as fact which is just one theory."

Bishop Adoyo said all the country's churches would unite to force the museum to change its focus when it reopens after 18 months of renovations in June next year.

"We will write to them, we will call them, we will make sure our people know about this and we will see what we can do to make our voice known," he said.

[Valentine Pontifex]

Has anyone pointed out that creationists have lots of faith that creationism is true--NOT!

If creationism was true, it would be the creationists who would want the whole world to see those fossils front and center.

I will take it as an unintended admission by the creationists that reality does not agree with them.

[KDB]

who cares about kenia, the oldest human fossils found so far are from west africa, the lake chad region more specifically if i remember correctly.

PZ Myers reports in Africa: our past, perhaps our future (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/africa_our_past_perhaps_our_fu.php), drawing from Evangelicals urge museum to hide man's ancestors (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/12/wleakey12.xml), that some Kenya fundies want Kenya's National Museum to put its hominid-fossil exhibits in a back room instead of very prominently out in front.

[Ted Hoffman]

KDB, ite Kenya, not Kenia.

[Ezkerraldean]

scary.

[KDB]

KDB, ite Kenya, not Kenia.

well, i am german, and sometimes, especially with names that sound the same in both languages, i unfortunately fall back to german spelling :blush:

[lpetrich]

who cares about kenia, the oldest human fossils found so far are from west africa, the lake chad region more specifically if i remember correctly.However, several important in-between ones have been found in Kenya, like the Turkana Boy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_boy) (Homo erectus) (also at talkorigins.org (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/15000.html)).

Below the neck, the Turkana Boy looks close to human, while his skull seems much more simian.

And check this page of creationist opinions (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html); they have a hard time deciding which Homo erectus fossils are human, and which ones are ape.

[KDB]

However, several important in-between ones have been found in Kenya, like the Turkana Boy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_boy) (Homo erectus) (also at talkorigins.org (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/15000.html)).

Below the neck, the Turkana Boy looks close to human, while his skull seems much more simian.

And check this page of creationist opinions (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html); they have a hard time deciding which Homo erectus fossils are human, and which ones are ape.

have you heard of the findings of dr. darren cornoe. according to him, there have never been more than 5 species of humans (sapiens (including erectus, java man, and peking man), habilis, africanus, ramidus and a fifth one which has died out) and modern man does not date back 120,000 years, but 1.7m to 2m years. all the other 20 or so alledged human species were only races or died out without traces in us. he is an expert in genetic analysis and has put forward some rather hot suggestions based on the findings of his and his colleagues, like for instance to count chimps as humans and that the out-of-africa theory is obsolete.

here (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/stories/s841489.htm) is a short interview with him, unfortunately the more interesting text i read was in german only, but what the heck...

[Valentine Pontifex]

who cares about kenia, the oldest human fossils found so far are from west africa, the lake chad region more specifically if i remember correctly.


This attitude is wrong for several reasons:

1) This sort of resembles the creationist attitude. I care about all the evidence. It is not any particular piece of evidence that makes the case for evolution so darn strong, but rather that that evidence is volumous, comes from many places and distinct fields of study, and forms a consistent whole.

2) If the fossils from Chad were the only fossils of human evolution, then frankly I would not even bring up fossils when discussing human evolution. Chad has only a few fossils, they are not that complete, and better preserved fossils are found elsewhere. Chad would be a footnote, if it did not feature possibly the oldest fossil hominid. Other than that that oldest hominind and a partial jaw of an australopithicine, Chad has not produced fossil hominids. One can find far more fossils in East and South parts of the African continent.

[KDB]

This attitude is wrong for several reasons:

1) This sort of resembles the creationist attitude. I care about all the evidence. It is not any particular piece of evidence that makes the case for evolution so darn strong, but rather that that evidence is volumous, comes from many places and distinct fields of study, and forms a consistent whole.

2) If the fossils from Chad were the only fossils of human evolution, then frankly I would not even bring up fossils when discussing human evolution. Chad has only a few fossils, they are not that complete, and better preserved fossils are found elsewhere. Chad would be a footnote, if it did not feature possibly the oldest fossil hominid. Other than that that oldest hominind and a partial jaw of an australopithicine, Chad has not produced fossil hominids. One can find far more fossils in East and South parts of the African continent.

of course the finds in east africa matter too, i just find it a bit ridiculous to concentrate too much on them as back then the whole of africa including the sahara was lush and green, so it is a bit absurd to assume humans developed only in east africa. the san people are the closest living link to the ancient humans and they used to live up to the mediterranean long before there even existed black people like bantus.
i read genetically nigeria is a hotspot, its people show the greatest variety and number of mutations, which means that it is probably one of the regions continually inhabited by humans for the longest time.
but i do not believe that humans developed in africa only, anyway.

[Valentine Pontifex]

have you heard of the findings of dr. darren cornoe. according to him, there have never been more than 5 species of humans (sapiens (including erectus, java man, and peking man), habilis, africanus, ramidus and a fifth one which has died out) and modern man does not date back 120,000 years, but 1.7m to 2m years. all the other 20 or so alledged human species were only races or died out without traces in us. he is an expert in genetic analysis and has put forward some rather hot suggestions based on the findings of his and his colleagues, like for instance to count chimps as humans and that the out-of-africa theory is obsolete.

here (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/stories/s841489.htm) is a short interview with him, unfortunately the more interesting text i read was in german only, but what the heck...


I never heard of Darren Curnoe before. He is clearly a rather minor figure.

What does an expert of "genetic analysis" have to do with the study of fossils (other than suggest how long ago the common ancestor lived). If he wants to count chimps as "human" than I don't think anyone is going to take him seriously. The idea of including Homo erectus, etc. in our species is hardly novel. Milford H. Wolpoff has been suggesting that for decades. Though please note that scientists who do so do not suggest that Homo erectus is like us today, rather that modern humans evolved from such stock without speciation.

[Valentine Pontifex]

of course the finds in east africa matter too, i just find it a bit ridiculous to concentrate too much on them as back then the whole of africa including the sahara was lush and green, so it is a bit absurd to assume humans developed only in east africa. the san people are the closest living link to the ancient humans and they used to live up to the mediterranean long before there even existed black people like bantus.
i read genetically nigeria is a hotspot, its people show the greatest variety and number of mutations, which means that it is probably one of the regions continually inhabited by humans for the longest time.
but i do not believe that humans developed in africa only, anyway.

Where did I assume that humans evolved in East Africa? I did not. I have not. Not now, not ever.

How do you suggest that any particular groups of humans are more closely related to "ancient humans"? Every single human on Earth is equally related to any pre-Homo sapiens hominind.

Where any humans are at now is pretty damn flimsy evidence given the mobility humans have over geologic time. Heck, it can be dangerous assumption even with animals, let alone humans. The country where the greatest diversity in humans is at is not credible evidence. (And I will require a reference for making Nigeria that location.)

The reason why the African hominid fossils from Eastern and Southern Africa get the most attention is very simple. That is where the vast majority of fossil hominid evidence has been found. Eastern Africa has produced thousands of finds including some extremely compete and/or high quality specimens. Ditto for South Africa. For whatever reasons what Western Africa has produced could fit in a suit case with only one find of any significance has been found. Until scientists can find those Western African finds, which might take decades assuming it ever happens, the vast majority of the spotlight will have to remain on East and Southern Africa. Indeed, if it was not for the knowledge gained from East and Southern Africa, I doubt that the significance of what little has been found in West African would have been recognized. And for showing non-scientists fossil evidence of human evolution, East Africa simply can't be beat.

(Chad is West Africa? I will use that terminology only since you did. Central Africa would be a beter term for that part of the world.)

Part of the reason why East Africa has gotten so many finds is that it provides many outcrops of the appropriate age that can be easily accessed by fossil hunters. Fossils that are below the ground willl amost almost certainly not be found. It does not matter how many hominids lived in a place in the past if scientists can't get at their remains. The remains need to be fossilized. They then need to survive the passage of time. There strata then needs to be uncovered at the present time in such a way that someone can actually search them. This is an extremely rare sitution. East African has a great many such places like that thanks to its geologic history. That more scientists have been based their instead of Chad also is a factor. It takes time to find strata that actually produce fossil hominids. For these reasons alone, East African sites will remain of paramount importance for a very long time to come.

[Valentine Pontifex]

as back then the whole of africa including the sahara was lush and green,

I really should point out that a "lush" enviroment is usually not very good for forming fossils.

That is probably why the chimp fossil record is nothing but a few teeth: it seems likely (though obviously one can't say for sure) that they never left the rain forests.

The historical enviroment in Eastern Africa is an important reason why so many important fossils have been found there. And as I have previously pointed out, the current enviroment which exposes fossil containing strata is also an important reason why Eastern Africa is such a great spot for human evolution studies. This why problems preventing work in Ethiopia and Kenya are about the worst possible places for it to happen. (Indeed a decade of field work was lost in Ethiopia because of warfare.)

[KDB]

Where did I assume that humans evolved in East Africa? I did not. I have not. Not now, not ever.

i have not said that you personally assmumed that. i don't know you (and don't care as you are not the friendliest person around) or what you think where humans evolved. it was a general statement on my part, as over the years i have read many articles saying "adam and eve" were found in this or that east african site, that eve was from ethiopia etc. but i think there was no single eve and thus there were probably also eves in say mali and indonesia etc.

How do you suggest that any particular groups of humans are more closely related to "ancient humans"? Every single human on Earth is equally related to any pre-Homo sapiens hominind.

Where any humans are at now is pretty damn flimsy evidence given the mobility humans have over geologic time. Heck, it can be dangerous assumption even with animals, let alone humans.

you may consider it dangerous, i stick with my view that san people resemble ancient humans more closely than for instance we northerners do, not in terms of age, but in terms of lack of change and adaptation necessary to survive in the northern habitats with its colder temperatures etc.

The country where the greatest diversity in humans is at is not credible evidence. (And I will require a reference for making Nigeria that location.)

i have read that years ago when i was still very much interested in everything west african. but maybe i will find it again. if not, your requiring a reference will have been in vain.

[Godless Dave]

Of course there are important fossils from all over the world. But the national museum of Kenya is going to be most interested in fossils found in Kenya.

[DMB]

Fundies do seem to be a growing problem in some parts of Africa:
CRACKPOT CHRISTIANS TRY TO HIDE THE EVIDENCE OF EVOLUTION
Fundamentalist Christians in Kenya are pressurising the country’s national museum to hide the world famous collection of hominid bones that provide evidence that man evolved from apes.

The religious leaders want the bones to be removed from their pride of place in the museum and hidden away in a back room. The collection, discovered by Dr Richard Leakey, includes the most complete skeleton yet found of Homo erectus, the 1.7 million-year-old Turkana Boy unearthed by Dr Leakey’s team in 1984 at Nariokotome, near Lake Turkana in northern Kenya. The discoveries have added convincing evidence to the theory that Kenya’s rift valley was the place where mankind originated. The Churches are now claiming that it contradicts Biblical teaching and are demanding that the museum takes the emphasis off the exhibit.

As part of an ongoing expansion funded by the EU, the National Museums of Kenya, which manages the country’s cultural sites, is conducting a survey to determine what visitors to its Nairobi headquarters most want to see. Church leaders aim to hijack that process. “The Christian community here is very uncomfortable that Leakey and his group want their theories presented as fact,” said Bishop Bonifes Adoyo, the head of Christ is the Answer Ministries, the largest Pentecostal church in Kenya. “Our doctrine is not that we evolved from apes, and we have grave concerns that the museum wants to enhance the prominence of something presented as fact which is just one theory.”

Bishop Adoyo said all Kenya’s churches would join the campaign to force the museum to change its focus when it re-opens after refurbishment in June next year. He said they would pressurise the museum relentlessly.

Dr Leakey told The Daily Telegraph: “The National Museums of Kenya should be extremely strong in presenting a very forceful case for the evolutionary theory of the origins of mankind. The collection it holds is one of Kenya’s very few global claims to fame and it must be forthright in defending its right to be at the forefront of this branch of science.”

Describing the Pentecostal church fundamentalists, Dr Leakey added: “Their theories are far, far from the mainstream on this. They cannot be allowed to meddle with what is the world’s leading collection of these types of fossils.”


Note to mods: this is quoted from the newsletter of the National Secular Society (http://www.secularism.org.uk/) who always give permission to be quoted provided they are given credit.

[Ezkerraldean]

yeah, i think someone else posted it somewhere.
funny how they dont even try to give a creationist explanation for them, they just try to hide them and ignore their existance. wankers.

[SwoleMan]

Bishop Adoyo said all Kenya’s churches would join the campaign to force the museum to change its focus when it re-opens after refurbishment in June next year. He said they would pressurise the museum relentlessly.

Why do I fear violence and arson?

[_Naturalist_]

“The Christian community here is very uncomfortable that Leakey and his group want their theories presented as fact,” said Bishop Bonifes Adoyo, the head of Christ is the Answer Ministries, the largest Pentecostal church in Kenya.
Maybe he should realise that his faith isn't exactly based on fact. This doesn't seem to bother the Christians.

“Our doctrine is not that we evolved from apes, and we have grave concerns that the museum wants to enhance the prominence of something presented as fact which is just one theory.”
This argument should be outlawed.

[lpetrich]

I wonder where all the Xian defenders of evolution have run off to; they seem curiously cowardly in the face of fundies who claim to speak for them.

And I wonder what fundies elsewhere have tried to do with various museums.

[Ezkerraldean]

Why do I fear violence and arson?

and then they will blame the violence on that dangerous evolutionary theory being taught to kids.

[JPOnion]

If you can't disprove or properly debate the evidence, hide it. Out of sight, out of mind, right?

I've noticed that in my family. They can't seem to debate this stuff, or understand it, so it's never, ever brought up. It's like it's not even there.