Lost Sheep

[Steven Carr]

Matthew 18 12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.:

If God is a good shepherd, who actively seeks out lost sheep, why are there so many lost sheep in the world?

Of course, a truly good shepherd says 'Sheep have minds of their own', 'I have left enough evidence for the sheep to find its own way back', or 'The sheep was never in my flock anyway', or 'If I bring this sheep back, two others would go missing' :-)

[curbyIII]

I've always wondered about that shepherd analogy. Everyone always hears about the good shepherd going off to find the lost sheep, but nobody ever wonders why the shepherd is tending to the flock in the first place. He's tending to the flock so that he can fatten them up and eat them. Kind of makes you think.

[rhutchin]

Matthew 18 12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.:

If God is a good shepherd, who actively seeks out lost sheep, why are there so many lost sheep in the world?

Of course, a truly good shepherd says 'Sheep have minds of their own', 'I have left enough evidence for the sheep to find its own way back', or 'The sheep was never in my flock anyway', or 'If I bring this sheep back, two others would go missing' :-)

In the Biblical context, there are sheep and there are goats. The sheep are those whom God saves. The goats are those whom God leaves alone. The parable is saying that God ensures that the sheep will remain saved and if any wander off, He will go find them and bring tham back.

[JPD]

In the Biblical context, there are sheep and there are goats. The sheep are those whom God saves. The goats are those whom God leaves alone. The parable is saying that God ensures that the sheep will remain saved and if any wander off, He will go find them and bring tham back.

Do the goats have the option of becoming sheep or has God determined in advance who will be sheep and who will be goats?

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
In the Biblical context, there are sheep and there are goats. The sheep are those whom God saves. The goats are those whom God leaves alone. The parable is saying that God ensures that the sheep will remain saved and if any wander off, He will go find them and bring tham back.

JPD
Do the goats have the option of becoming sheep or has God determined in advance who will be sheep and who will be goats?

God gives everyone the ability to do that which they desire. If a goat desires to become a sheep, he can become a sheep.

[JPD]

God gives everyone the ability to do that which they desire. If a goat desires to become a sheep, he can become a sheep.

Although to some God gives an advantage at the outset?

Perspective & Prayer thread - 4 questions and answers on "The Elect" (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=2777367#post2777367)

[Bobinius]

How about the donkey? Can he become a goat or maybe a sheep?

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
God gives everyone the ability to do that which they desire. If a goat desires to become a sheep, he can become a sheep.

JPD
Although to some God gives an advantage at the outset?

Perspective & Prayer thread - 4 questions and answers on "The Elect" (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=2777367#post2777367)

To some God has stated His intention to save them if they initially choose not to accept His salvation. However, all people always have the ability to choose that to serve God. If a person desires to serve God for eternity, God will not object.

[rhutchin]

How about the donkey? Can he become a goat or maybe a sheep?

No. Only people can be designated as goats or sheep in the Biblical sense in which the terms are used.

It was a cute question, however.

[Alorasnovas]

I feel like I am a goat, due to my interactions with Christians. Am a PK also... I do not feel like I have a choice... my only choice would be to turn off my questions and "submit" to some preacher's authority, even though I do not recognize that any specific preacher has authority (meaning, God did not come down and hand a few people badges which they could present whenever their authority is questioned. So for me to go from goat to sheep would be for me to disengage my ability to think.

[Von Zipper]

How about the donkey? Can he become a goat or maybe a sheep?

Surely, if he but loveth the Lord enough in his heart!*

*And ensureth also that never shall he mix meat and dairy dishes, operate electrical devices on Saturdays or otherwise contravine whichever holy Biblical regulations the Lord in his somewhat capricious mercy is enforcing on that particular afternoon.

[JPD]

To some God has stated His intention to save them if they initially choose not to accept His salvation. However, all people always have the ability to choose that to serve God. If a person desires to serve God for eternity, God will not object.

You're making about as much sense as you normally do.

[Bobinius]

Surely, if he but loveth the Lord enough in his heart!*

*And ensureth also that never shall he mix meat and dairy dishes, operate electrical devices on Saturdays or otherwise contravine whichever holy Biblical regulations the Lord in his somewhat capricious mercy is enforcing on that particular afternoon.

:D So, there is a chance for the donkey. Maybe for Shrek too?

Seriously, how come believers are not offended by being treated like an ovine group?

[Steven Carr]

In the Biblical context, there are sheep and there are goats. The sheep are those whom God saves. The goats are those whom God leaves alone. The parable is saying that God ensures that the sheep will remain saved and if any wander off, He will go find them and bring tham back.

So there are no lost sheep? If it leaves the flock, it has always been a goat?

[rhutchin]

I feel like I am a goat, due to my interactions with Christians. Am a PK also... I do not feel like I have a choice... my only choice would be to turn off my questions and "submit" to some preacher's authority, even though I do not recognize that any specific preacher has authority (meaning, God did not come down and hand a few people badges which they could present whenever their authority is questioned. So for me to go from goat to sheep would be for me to disengage my ability to think.

To go from goat to sheep requires that you engage your ability to think. Your obligation would be to God and that which He tells you in the Bible and not to a preacher and what he may think God says. Whether you are a goat or a sheep depends on your interactions with God which should then be extrapolated to the way you interact with other Christians. There are a lot of preachers who have studied the Bible and can help you in your study. There are some preachers who are basically duds. Some people become preachers in hope of scamming others.

[rhutchin]

So there are no lost sheep? If it leaves the flock, it has always been a goat?

Goats are allowed to come in among the sheep and freely mingle with them. That does not make them sheep. They come in as goats; they mingle as goats; they leave as goats.

[rhutchin]

?
Seriously, how come believers are not offended by being treated like an ovine group?

When Christians consider the manner in which they have treated God, the manner in which they are treated becomes inconsequential.

[JPD]

To go from goat to sheep requires that you engage your ability to think. Your obligation would be to God and that which He tells you in the Bible and not to a preacher and what he may think God says. Whether you are a goat or a sheep depends on your interactions with God which should then be extrapolated to the way you interact with other Christians. There are a lot of preachers who have studied the Bible and can help you in your study. There are some preachers who are basically duds. Some people become preachers in hope of scamming others.

But in particular this is the key part

Your obligation would be to God and that which He tells you in the Bible and not to a

..and that which he tells you in the Bible.

Of course you cannot make any such claim. Remember that your entire belief system is based on something which could be nothing more than someone else's fantasies. Having your own fantasies of the kind found in the Bible would be stupid enough but to believe someone else's is another level entirely. Once again you show the limitations of your worldview by saying


which should then be extrapolated to the way you interact with other Christians.

No - Christians are no more important than anyone else on this earth - simple as that. In actual fact I would say that their views are inferior because of their need to suck everyone else in to their deranged concepts of truth, good and evil.

[luvluv]

'Sheep have minds of their own', 'I have left enough evidence for the sheep to find its own way back',

Spoken like a man who has never been around sheep.

Sheep are supposedly the dumbest of all domesticated animals. I've heard of groups of them blithely walking off of cliffs. There's a reason why ancient livestock owners sat and watched their sheep but left their cattle and other animals basically to tend for themselves.

I think the analogy or the point being made is fairly specific. When it comes to moral decisions, humans are arguably about as stupid as sheep. After seeing other people walk off of a particular cliff, a cliff of drug addiction, adultery, alcholism, etc, human beings will walk over the same cliff and expect a different result.

That's just my opinion.

Also, did people eat sheep or shear them and sell the wool? I never heard of people doing a lot of sheep eating. I would think shearing them for the wool would be far more profitable in the long term, depending on how long they live.

Anyways...

[Eldarion Lathria]

Spoken like a man who has never been around sheep.

Sheep are supposedly the dumbest of all domesticated animals. I've heard of groups of them blithely walking off of cliffs. There's a reason why ancient livestock owners sat and watched their sheep but left their cattle and other animals basically to tend for themselves.

I think the analogy or the point being made is fairly specific. When it comes to moral decisions, humans are arguably about as stupid as sheep. After seeing other people walk off of a particular cliff, a cliff of drug addiction, adultery, alcholism, etc, human beings will walk over the same cliff and expect a different result.

That's just my opinion.

Also, did people eat sheep or shear them and sell the wool? I never heard of people doing a lot of sheep eating. I would think shearing them for the wool would be far more profitable in the long term, depending on how long they live.

Anyways...

People who raise sheep eat them. Look at the traditional cuisines of sheep herding people, Basques, Arabs, Turks, Iranians, Mongols, Greeks, Scots; all full of lamb and mutton recipes. They also castrate most of the males. A few rams are kept for breeding, the rest are castrated. Also a sheepherder who left the flock untended to go looking for one sheep would be fired, arin-arin! Proprietors expect to lose a few sheep, it's one of the herder's jobs to keep that to a minimum. Letting the whole flock shift for itself while looking for one sheep is bad herding.

And if Christians are the sheep, who are the dogs? Sheep herding isn't done without dogs, the dogs do most of the work.

Eldarion Lathria

[Steven Carr]

Spoken like a man who has never been around sheep.

I'm simply pointing out the rationalisations some Christian apologists resort to when it is obvious that God behaves nothing like a good shepherd, and lets his lost sheep go to Hell.

[rhutchin]

Of course you cannot make any such claim. Remember that your entire belief system is based on something which could be nothing more than someone else's fantasies. Having your own fantasies of the kind found in the Bible would be stupid enough but to believe someone else's is another level entirely.

You also have a belief system that suffers in the same manner. You are a man of faith; I am a man of faith. We place our faith in different things.


Once again you show the limitations of your worldview by saying

rhutchin
which should then be extrapolated to the way you interact with other Christians.

No - Christians are no more important than anyone else on this earth - simple as that. In actual fact I would say that their views are inferior because of their need to suck everyone else in to their deranged concepts of truth, good and evil.

Christians do not see themselves to be more important than others. They marvel that God would save them at all. Christians do not seek to suck everyone else into alleged deranged concepts of truth, good and evil. They seek to tell people the truth.

[JPD]

You also have a belief system that suffers in the same manner. You are a man of faith; I am a man of faith. We place our faith in different things.

How? I accept the scientific process, how it evaluates evidence and so on. I don't automatically believe what others say they have experienced. So my "belief system" is not the same as yours.



Christians do not see themselves to be more important than others. They marvel that God would save them at all. Christians do not seek to suck everyone else into alleged deranged concepts of truth, good and evil. They seek to tell people the truth.

Then marvel quietly and stop bothering everyone else. Your version of "the truth" is one of many out there. That is its failing. And no matter how many times you are asked you are unable to provide any evidence except what is written in the Bible. It won't wash - the longer you stay here the longer your posts irritate and remind why we are so very happy not to have the same beliefs as you. To believe that Biblegod is somehow good is hogwash - your definition of goodness incorporates whatever is necessary. So it ceases to be good. I don't think you understand this. Perhaps you might in the future. Don't create a response that swaps religious words for non-religious ones - that would be so obvious.

[Alf]

How about the donkey? Can he become a goat or maybe a sheep?

Don't forget the chipmunks in all this! The zebra and the gaselles! What about giraffes? Will they still have long necks after they become sheep or goats?

Alf

[Alf]

To some God has stated His intention to save them if they initially choose not to accept His salvation. However, all people always have the ability to choose that to serve God. If a person desires to serve God for eternity, God will not object.

Not easy to serve god when he appearantly has decided to play hide and seek with me and - being perfect - he is perfectly hidden so that I cannot find hm. Now, which god exactly was it that I was supposed to serve? Ah, yes, the One True God? Where is he again? The bible does not talk about The One True God, The OT talks about "Yahweh" and "Elohim" and "Baal" and "El" and NT talks about "The Father". Ah, you say "The One True God" IS "The Father"? Well, is that the same as the muslims call "Allah" and the hindu call "Shiva"? Is it the same as the ancient greek called "Zeus" and the ancient romans called *Jupiter*?

How exactly do you detemrine identify when it comes to fantasy figures?

I guess I am truly lost in this maze of twisty little passages, all alike. XYZZY!

Alf

[Alf]

Surely, if he but loveth the Lord enough in his heart!*

*And ensureth also that never shall he mix meat and dairy dishes,


But, but, but, I _LIKE_ cheese and ham together. Egg and bacon can always do with a little cheese :)

What about cheeseburger? Or just plainly a glass of milk with a toast with a slice of ham on it?

silly deities, don't they have anything better to do than to command arbitary silly non-sensical rules? What exactly was wrong with some sensible ethical rules like "No killing" etc, why do they have to impose stupid rules of "no pork" and "no sex" and "remember to mutlitate your genitals" other such mind-bogglingly stupid rules?

Yes, I know most gods have the sensible rules also but why do they have to add on those silly rules on top? Also, incase you haven't noticed, it is in exactly these stupid rules they all differ. The sensible rules are where they agree! Consequently, where religious groups clash - is generally on stupid unimportant rules that we can be better off without, where they do not clash and generally agree is where they find agreement even among the atheist crowd.


operate electrical devices on Saturdays

Dang, I like to watch movies and TV on saturdays. Also, the guild that I am member of in Everquest have raids every saturday so I generally have to turn on the computer every saturday to join them.


or otherwise contravine whichever holy Biblical regulations the Lord in his somewhat capricious mercy is enforcing on that particular afternoon.

Yup, exactly those unimportant stupid rules I talked about above.

Let's ditch these gods once and for all, we can do a lot better without them!

Alf

[Alf]

:D So, there is a chance for the donkey. Maybe for Shrek too?

Seriously, how come believers are not offended by being treated like an ovine group?

Maybe they consider that at least they are not compared to canines like Jesus did to the canaanite woman?

Alf

[post tenebras lux]

To some God has stated His intention to save them if they initially choose not to accept His salvation. However, all people always have the ability to choose that to serve God. If a person desires to serve God for eternity, God will not object.But I thought you were a Calvinist, rhutchin? Or are you playing with words here? Can a goat - who 'desires' to be a sheep - become a sheep? Or will he always remain a goat, no matter whether he thinks he serves god or not?Goats are allowed to come in among the sheep and freely mingle with them. That does not make them sheep. They come in as goats; they mingle as goats; they leave as goats.So goats will always be goats, right? And a sheep will always be a sheep, right?

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
To some God has stated His intention to save them if they initially choose not to accept His salvation. However, all people always have the ability to choose that to serve God. If a person desires to serve God for eternity, God will not object.

Alf
Not easy to serve god when he appearantly has decided to play hide and seek with me and - being perfect - he is perfectly hidden so that I cannot find hm.

Actually, God has not hidden these things from you. He has revealed that which He is doing in the Bible Any person can read it and discover what is happening.


Now, which god exactly was it that I was supposed to serve? Ah, yes, the One True God? Where is he again? The bible does not talk about The One True God, The OT talks about "Yahweh" and "Elohim" and "Baal" and "El" and NT talks about "The Father". Ah, you say "The One True God" IS "The Father"? Well, is that the same as the muslims call "Allah" and the hindu call "Shiva"? Is it the same as the ancient greek called "Zeus" and the ancient romans called *Jupiter*?

Many gods to choose from. He can be the Christ, or Allah, or Shiva, or any number of alleged gods. The Bible focuses attention on Christ; the Koran focuses on Allah; the Mormons have another; the Hindus...etc.


How exactly do you detemrine identify when it comes to fantasy figures?

Yeah. Except one of them may not be a fantasy figure.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
You also have a belief system that suffers in the same manner. You are a man of faith; I am a man of faith. We place our faith in different things.

JPD
How? I accept the scientific process, how it evaluates evidence and so on. I don't automatically believe what others say they have experienced. So my "belief system" is not the same as yours.

Yep, that’s what I said - your "belief system" is not the same as mine. We place our faith in different things.

rhutchin
Christians do not see themselves to be more important than others. They marvel that God would save them at all. Christians do not seek to suck everyone else into alleged deranged concepts of truth, good and evil. They seek to tell people the truth.

JPD
Then marvel quietly and stop bothering everyone else. Your version of "the truth" is one of many out there. That is its failing. And no matter how many times you are asked you are unable to provide any evidence except what is written in the Bible. It won't wash - the longer you stay here the longer your posts irritate and remind why we are so very happy not to have the same beliefs as you. To believe that Biblegod is somehow good is hogwash - your definition of goodness incorporates whatever is necessary. So it ceases to be good. I don't think you understand this. Perhaps you might in the future. Don't create a response that swaps religious words for non-religious ones - that would be so obvious.

You are free to reject that which the Bible says. I see nothing wrong with a person having some knowledge about that which he is rejecting.

[JPD]

Actually, God has not hidden these things from you. He has revealed that which He is doing in the Bible Any person can read it and discover what is happening.

You know nothing of the sort I'm afraid.


Many gods to choose from. He can be the Christ, or Allah, or Shiva, or any number of alleged gods. The Bible focuses attention on Christ; the Koran focuses on Allah; the Mormons have another; the Hindus...etc.

Yep - and anyone could invent any God they feel like that represents the values they hold personally.


Yeah. Except one of them may not be a fantasy figure.

You have no evidence that any of them are anything more than fantasy figures. If you talk of us not being able to disprove a fantasy figure, or to prove that a fantasy figure does not exist we wouldn't waste our time since by the nature of fantasy figures they are just that, ie. there is nothing there to be proved or disproved.

[JPD]

Yep, that’s what I said - your "belief system" is not the same as mine. We place our faith in different things.

Yes but my "belief system" does not suffer in the same manner - you're quite wrong there.


You are free to reject that which the Bible says. I see nothing wrong with a person having some knowledge about that which he is rejecting.

I would agree with you there.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
To some God has stated His intention to save them if they initially choose not to accept His salvation. However, all people always have the ability to choose that to serve God. If a person desires to serve God for eternity, God will not object.

post tenebras lux
But I thought you were a Calvinist, rhutchin? Or are you playing with words here? Can a goat - who 'desires' to be a sheep - become a sheep? Or will he always remain a goat, no matter whether he thinks he serves god or not?

Yep, I am a Calvinist. Calvinists agree that a goat who 'desires' to be a sheep can become a sheep. The Calvinist will also say that no goat will desire to be a sheep. Goats like their sin and have no desire to give up that sin - they would hardly repent of the sin that they love, would they? Let’s assume that you are a goat. Do you see yourself having any desire to become a sheep if it means giving up that which you love?

rhutchin
Goats are allowed to come in among the sheep and freely mingle with them. That does not make them sheep. They come in as goats; they mingle as goats; they leave as goats.

post tenebras lux
So goats will always be goats, right? And a sheep will always be a sheep, right?

That seems to be the case from what I can observe. Goats never seem to desire to be anything other than goats; and sheep always desire to be sheep. Do you know any exceptions?

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
Yep, that’s what I said - your "belief system" is not the same as mine. We place our faith in different things.

JPD
Yes but my "belief system" does not suffer in the same manner - you're quite wrong there.

I don't see a lot of difference. We both have faith in that which we believe happens to a person after death. Neither one of us can construct a scientific experiment to prove, empirically, that our position is right. How is it that your belief system is any different than mine other than in the conclusion that you draw?

[JPD]

Yep, I am a Calvinist. Calvinists agree that a goat who 'desires' to be a sheep can become a sheep. The Calvinist will also say that no goat will desire to be a sheep. Goats like their sin and have no desire to give up that sin - they would hardly repent of the sin that they love, would they? Let’s assume that you are a goat. Do you see yourself having any desire to become a sheep if it means giving up that which you love?

Yet you have said (in another thread) that an "unelect" person cannot upgrade to become an "elect" person. So it looks like your God has decided that some of those who are sheep will never have the option of being anything but sheep. It is your Biblegod's decision rather than what the sheep themselves may or may not desire.

[JPD]

I don't see a lot of difference. We both have faith in that which we believe happens to a person after death. Neither one of us can construct a scientific experiment to prove, empirically, that our position is right. How is it that your belief system is any different than mine other than in the conclusion that you draw?

I don't have faith that anything at all happens - it doesn't particularly bother me. If there is an afterlife fine. If there is nothing fine. If there is a short period of despair fine. If there is a short period of joy fine. If there is a short period of neutrality fine. If I live eternally in despair fine. If I live eternally in joy fine. If I live eternally in neutrality fine. Couldn't care less. Its either nothing or a period of something an eternity of something. That's just fine. It just doesn't bother me.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
Actually, God has not hidden these things from you. He has revealed that which He is doing in the Bible Any person can read it and discover what is happening.

JPD
You know nothing of the sort I'm afraid.

If the God of the Bible is a living god, then we do know the things He has revealed to us in the Bible. The only issue is whether the Bible is telling us the truth. One person believes the Bible is true by faith and another person, by faith, believes that it is not true.

rhutchin
Many gods to choose from. He can be the Christ, or Allah, or Shiva, or any number of alleged gods. The Bible focuses attention on Christ; the Koran focuses on Allah; the Mormons have another; the Hindus...etc.

JPD
Yep - and anyone could invent any God they feel like that represents the values they hold personally.

I agree. Makes you wonder why so many people believe in the God of the Bible since He has so many standards and values that people do not hold.

rhutchin
Yeah. Except one of them may not be a fantasy figure.

JPD
You have no evidence that any of them are anything more than fantasy figures. If you talk of us not being able to disprove a fantasy figure, or to prove that a fantasy figure does not exist we wouldn't waste our time since by the nature of fantasy figures they are just that, ie. there is nothing there to be proved or disproved.

My understanding is that philosophers have dealt with this. You have such things as the cosmological argument and other arguments for the existence of something that we can call God. The concept of a “God” is not a fantasy. Identifying that God can produce fantasy.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
I don't see a lot of difference. We both have faith in that which we believe happens to a person after death. Neither one of us can construct a scientific experiment to prove, empirically, that our position is right. How is it that your belief system is any different than mine other than in the conclusion that you draw?

JPD
I don't have faith that anything at all happens - it doesn't particularly bother me. If there is an afterlife fine. If there is nothing fine. If there is a short period of despair fine. If there is a short period of joy fine. If there is a short period of neutrality fine. If I live eternally in despair fine. If I live eternally in joy fine. If I live eternally in neutrality fine. Couldn't care less. Its either nothing or a period of something an eternity of something. That's just fine. It just doesn't bother me.

You express your faith in your comments above. You are a person of strong faith from what I read above.

[JPD]

I agree. Makes you wonder why so many people believe in the God of the Bible since He has so many standards and values that people do not hold.


Indeed. It is a total mystery why the combination of pretending to hold the key to existence with the themes of joy and punishment running through should have grabbed the attention of so many people who had a limited grasp of reality at that time, and who then raised their children on it. :rolleyes:

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
Yep, I am a Calvinist. Calvinists agree that a goat who 'desires' to be a sheep can become a sheep. The Calvinist will also say that no goat will desire to be a sheep. Goats like their sin and have no desire to give up that sin - they would hardly repent of the sin that they love, would they? Let’s assume that you are a goat. Do you see yourself having any desire to become a sheep if it means giving up that which you love?

JPD
Yet you have said (in another thread) that an "unelect" person cannot upgrade to become an "elect" person. So it looks like your God has decided that some of those who are sheep will never have the option of being anything but sheep. It is your Biblegod's decision rather than what the sheep themselves may or may not desire.

I believe it is true that an "unelect" person WILL not upgrade to become an "elect" person. I believe it is true that an "unelect" person cannot overcome his personal desires and change those desires in order to upgrade to become an "elect" person because he does not desire to do that.

God has a free will also, and He can choose to help any person He wants to overcome their desires such that they will desire to be sheep and can become sheep. God can also preserve the sheep and go find them if they wander off.

[JPD]

You express your faith in your comments above. You are a person of strong faith from what I read above.

In the respect of not being concerned about what happens? By that token anything I say or do professes faith. Biblegod represents the absolute antithesis of what I feel and think. If I believed in Satan (which I don't btw - one who doesn't believe in one mythical entity does not automatically believe in another. To not believe that one mythical entity does not exist, to me, is to not believe that any exist) then I would regard Biblegod and Satan as the same entity.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
I agree. Makes you wonder why so many people believe in the God of the Bible since He has so many standards and values that people do not hold.

JPD
Indeed. It is a total mystery why the combination of pretending to hold the key to existence with the themes of joy and punishment running through should have grabbed the attention of so many people who had a limited grasp of reality at that time, and who then raised their children on it. :rolleyes:

Yep. It would not happen unless there were a God and He had a hand in it.

[JPD]

I believe it is true that an "unelect" person WILL not upgrade to become an "elect" person. I believe it is true that an "unelect" person cannot overcome his personal desires and change those desires in order to upgrade to become an "elect" person because he does not desire to do that.

God has a free will also, and He can choose to help any person He wants to overcome their desires such that they will desire to be sheep and can become sheep. God can also preserve the sheep and go find them if they wander off.

If Biblegod was a better role model perhaps people might have a better idea of what it is that he wishes they would do as opposed to everything they might do.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
You express your faith in your comments above. You are a person of strong faith from what I read above.

JPD
In the respect of not being concerned about what happens?

Yes. You have a great faith that you do not have to be concerned about that which happens to you after you die.


By that token anything I say or do professes faith.

Yes. Bascially, everything people do expresses their faith (their beliefs).


Biblegod represents the absolute antithesis of what I feel and think. If I believed in Satan (which I don't btw - one who doesn't believe in one mythical entity does not automatically believe in another. To not believe that one mythical entity does not exist, to me, is to not believe that any exist) then I would regard Biblegod and Satan as the same entity.

Hmmm. Satan is the absolute antithesis of God. It sounds like Satan has a lot in common with that which you believe. Maybe you do believe in Satan but have not come to realize that Satan is that which you believe in.

[JPD]

Yep. It would not happen unless there were a God and He had a hand in it.

Whether there is a God behind it is the question rather than the condition I'm afraid. Have you come across any books that have written themselves recently? No? Then every book is the result of the human mind and the human hand. What can be written can make all sorts of claims - in the case of religious text the more outlandish the better. Yet not a single piece of evidence has presented itself since the Bible was written - understanding has not progressed one jot. How odd no? Could you imagine something like the Bible being written in this age?

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
I believe it is true that an "unelect" person WILL not upgrade to become an "elect" person. I believe it is true that an "unelect" person cannot overcome his personal desires and change those desires in order to upgrade to become an "elect" person because he does not desire to do that.

God has a free will also, and He can choose to help any person He wants to overcome their desires such that they will desire to be sheep and can become sheep. God can also preserve the sheep and go find them if they wander off.

JPD
If Biblegod was a better role model perhaps people might have a better idea of what it is that he wishes they would do as opposed to everything they might do.

He gave us Christ as a role model. People seem to react strongly to Christ and want no part of Him. Perhaps God should have been more accommodating of sin and allowed people to be themselves and keep their sin. Maybe a different role model would have been more acceptable to people.

[rhutchin]

Whether there is a God behind it is the question rather than the condition I'm afraid. Have you come across any books that have written themselves recently? No? Then every book is the result of the human mind and the human hand. What can be written can make all sorts of claims - in the case of religious text the more outlandish the better. Yet not a single piece of evidence has presented itself since the Bible was written - understanding has not progressed one jot. How odd no? Could you imagine something like the Bible being written in this age?

Books are written by humans. Who knows but that God inspired some humans to write as they did over many centuries producing the documents that were then collected into the Bible. I cannot imagine the Biblical documents being written in any age absent God to inspire people to write them.

[JPD]

Hmmm. Satan is the absolute antithesis of God. It sounds like Satan has a lot in common with that which you believe. Maybe you do believe in Satan but have not come to realize that Satan is that which you believe in.

rhutchin, I don't believe in any supernatural entities - I have no need to. Anything for which no evidence exists I don't concern myself with. So even if I believed in God or Satan I would be scratching around trying to find evidence which doesn't exist. You go ahead and do that if you wish. I suspect that you dislike the prospect of actual evidence because it would turn your imaginary evidence on its head. The nature of that evidence I leave to your imagination.

And enough of the lame projecting - Dog its so cheap!

ETA: Your belief in one mythical entity actually increases your propensity to believe in others. It is you that should be worried about Satan rather than me - particularly at any time when you utilise Satan in an argument. I realise that it was ME that mentioned Satan first! But Biblegod being a mythical worthless shit needs to keep company with other mythical worthless bags of shit.

[JPD]

He gave us Christ as a role model. People seem to react strongly to Christ and want no part of Him. Perhaps God should have been more accommodating of sin and allowed people to be themselves and keep their sin. Maybe a different role model would have been more acceptable to people.

I don't have a problem with Christ as a human - seems a nice bloke. Where I lose interest is in the enhancement of his character and those miracles. Human yes but nothing more. Unless you have evidence that a human can be God - have you seen some actual experiments and have something you would like to show us? No? But what you do have is what people have said happened a long time ago - oh well lets all pack up and go home!

[JPD]

Books are written by humans. Who knows but that God inspired some humans to write as they did over many centuries producing the documents that were then collected into the Bible. I cannot imagine the Biblical documents being written in any age absent God to inspire people to write them.

Then your imagination doesn't show very much imagination. Quite clearly you can - by saying that you cannot imagine it the opposite thought has popped into your head. You can imagine it - if you can't then you don't have an imagination. Which is not possible. Of course the thought that you dislike - that Biblical documents were written in an age absent of God to inspire people - has now been shoved into a darkened recess.

[555]

Eat it.

http://www.hamiltonsheepcentre.com.au/gallery/food.jpg

[JPD]

Did the sheep become a cow?

[JPD]

Hmmm. Satan is the absolute antithesis of God. It sounds like Satan has a lot in common with that which you believe. Maybe you do believe in Satan but have not come to realize that Satan is that which you believe in.

The Bible says that Biblegod is the origin of all which naturally includes Satan. Perhaps as part of some egotrip thing he had going with himself. But anyway, this is the origin of your belief in the existence of Biblegod and Satan. It isn't me that believes it. If you wish to imagine that I believe in the existence of a mythical being on the basis of your beliefs about mythical beings in the Bible then you go for it. It doesn't actually make it so but it will sit nicely along the rest of the "evidence" that you have accumulated.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin, I don't believe in any supernatural entities - I have no need to...

So we come back again. You are a man of faith even as I am a man of faith.

[Johnny Skeptic]

So we come back again. You [JPD] are a man of faith even as I am a man of faith.

How is JPD's faith any less reliable than yours is? You do not have any evidence at all that is is more likely that God has revealed his true intentions than that he has concealed his true intentions. Your position is built entirely upon faith without any empirical evidence at all. Actions can be observed, but motives cannot be observed. One can use logic, or one can use emotional self-interest. Obviously, you have chosen to use emotional self-interest.

[Alorasnovas]

rhutchin, I am not seeing your logic... are you proposing that it takes just as much faith to believe in nothing as it does to believe in something? I could understand this logic if you apply it to the "absolute" atheist... but not to the ones who do not believe unless evidence is presented to the contrary.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin, I am not seeing your logic... are you proposing that it takes just as much faith to believe in nothing as it does to believe in something? I could understand this logic if you apply it to the "absolute" atheist... but not to the ones who do not believe unless evidence is presented to the contrary.

Faith consists in that which a person believes and is expressed in the actions that people take. If a person sits in a chair, that action is the expression of the person's faith that the chair will hold up if he sits on it. A belief that the stock market will rise in the next 10 years is a faith that the stock market will rise in the next 10 years and that faith (belief) expresses itself by a person investing in the stock market. If a person believes that nothing happens after death, they have a faith in nothing happening after death and they express that faith by doing nothing. That which one believes (or has faith in) can be influenced by actual evidence or lack of evidence or what is perceived to be evidence.

[rhutchin]

rhutchin
So we come back again. You [JPD] are a man of faith even as I am a man of faith.

Johnny Skeptic
How is JPD's faith any less reliable than yours is?

Well, at least one of us will be wrong.


You do not have any evidence at all that is is more likely that God has revealed his true intentions than that he has concealed his true intentions. Your position is built entirely upon faith without any empirical evidence at all. Actions can be observed, but motives cannot be observed. One can use logic, or one can use emotional self-interest. Obviously, you have chosen to use emotional self-interest.

Not really. The evidence is the Bible and the documents that it contains. There is empirical evidence to establish that the documents were written in the first century and can be viewed as historically accurate.

Nonetheless, any position that a person takes regarding life after death pretty much seems to involve some degree of emotional self-interest.

[JPD]

Well, at least one of us will be wrong.

You've determined that have you? We could both be right. If Biblegod is real and is capable of anything I could end up in a jacuzzi with nubile women and you could end up driving a Lada through an endless tunnel. Either way I can assure you that we'll both be in a kind of hell.;)


Not really. The evidence is the Bible and the documents that it contains. There is empirical evidence to establish that the documents were written in the first century and can be viewed as historically accurate.


Well that's okay but everything had to have been written at some point - that doesn't mean much at all.

[Alf]

Actually, God has not hidden these things from you. He has revealed that which He is doing in the Bible Any person can read it and discover what is happening.

So I read the bible and I read that Luke claim that Jesus was born around 6 AD and his grandpa's name was Jacob and then I read Matthew and I read that Jesus was born some time before 4 BC and his grandpa's name was Heli. Which is it? At least one of them must be bullshitting me, possibly both.

Hope you can resolve that riddle for me then, it would improve my confidence in the bible immensely.


Many gods to choose from. He can be the Christ, or Allah, or Shiva, or any number of alleged gods. The Bible focuses attention on Christ; the Koran focuses on Allah; the Mormons have another; the Hindus...etc.

So - again - which one? Chrisitians generally take it for granted that muslims are all wrong and will roast in hell and muslims generally take it for granted that christians are all wrong and will roast in hell. Jews generally take for granted that they are both wrong and will both roast in hell. It seems like an important question but God has perfectly hidden the answer to that very important question.


Yeah. Except one of them may not be a fantasy figure.

Which one and how do you know?

Alf

[Alf]

[QUOTE=Alf;3729214]
I guess I am truly lost in this maze of twisty little passages, all alike. XYZZY!
/QUOTE]

Why do I feel sad that nobody spotted the reference to "collosal cave adventure" here?

Alf

[rhutchin]

So I read the bible and I read that Luke claim that Jesus was born around 6 AD and his grandpa's name was Jacob and then I read Matthew and I read that Jesus was born some time before 4 BC and his grandpa's name was Heli. Which is it? At least one of them must be bullshitting me, possibly both.

I went over to Biblical Criticism & History and started a thread entitled "The Birth of Jesus" to discuss this.

[Cheerful Charlie]

Matthew 18 12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.:

If God is a good shepherd, who actively seeks out lost sheep, why are there so many lost sheep in the world?

Of course, a truly good shepherd says 'Sheep have minds of their own', 'I have left enough evidence for the sheep to find its own way back', or 'The sheep was never in my flock anyway', or 'If I bring this sheep back, two others would go missing' :-)

See Romans 11. Why did the Jews not believe in Jesus? God hardened their hearts so
they would not.
Why did Jesus speak in parables?
So some people hearing, would not undertand and have their sins forgiven and be saved!

Matthew 13:10-17

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why
speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is
given unto you to know the mysteries of the
kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and
he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath
not, from him shall be taken away even that he
hath.
13 "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because
they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not,
neither do they understand.
14 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of
Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and
shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and
shall not perceive:
15 "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and
their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes
they have closed; lest at any time they should see
with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and
should understand with their heart, and should be
converted, and I should heal them.
16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and
your ears, for they hear.
17 "For verily I say unto you, That many prophets
and righteous men have desired to see those things
which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear
those things which ye hear, and have not heard
them.

See Luke 8, Mark 4

1 Timothy says god wants allmen save.

If so, why did he harden the hearts of Jews to not besaved?

If free will means nothing then to god, again, Romans 11,
why then not just makes allmen beliverers and saved?

The Quran is no better, various verses tell that Allah makes
Atheists who do not believe.


35:8 Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made
fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good,
(other than Satan's dupe) ? Allah verily sendeth
whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so
let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo!
Allah is Aware of what they do!

39:36 Will not Allah defend His slave ? Yet they
would frighten thee with those beside Him. He whom
Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide.

76:29 Lo! this is an Admonishment, that whosoever
will may choose a way unto his Lord.
76:30 Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo!
Allah is Knower, Wise.
76:31 He maketh whom He will to enter His mercy,
and for evil-doers hath prepared a painful doom.

74:31 We have appointed only angels to be wardens
of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a
stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that
those to whom the Scripture hath been given may
have certainty, and that believers may increase in
faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath
been given and believers may not doubt; and that
those in whose hearts there is disease, and
disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this
similitude ? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He
will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth
the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught
else than a Reminder unto mortals.



Cheerful Charlie

[Steven Carr]

I was at a book launch party last night of the Bishop of Jarrow's new book 'How to Explain your Faith' - designed to give answers to the questions that sceptics raise.

I asked him why there are so many lost sheep in the world , if there is a god who is a Good Shepherd, and his reply was 'That's a good question. Does anybody else have any other questions?'

[Johnny Skeptic]

In the Biblical context, there are sheep and there are goats. The sheep are those whom God saves. The goats are those whom God leaves alone. The parable is saying that God ensures that the sheep will remain saved and if any wander off, He will go find them and bring them back.

Of course, you mean the fortunate sheep who God, in his favoritism, chooses to reveal himself to. There is no credible evidence that God has ever saved anyone, or that he ever will. The Bible writers did not have any evidence at all that the being who supposedly inspired them revealed his true intentions. Any evil being who has sufficient power can easily conceal his true intentions if that is what he wishes to do. Similarly, any good being who has sufficient power can easily reveal his true intentions if that is what he wishes to do.

I went over to Biblical Criticism & History and started a thread entitled "The Birth of Jesus" to discuss this.

The birth of Jesus is irrelevant because you do not know whether or not God intends to send anyone to heaven. In fact, the entire Bible is irrelevant for the same reason.