UK 'Collective Worship' in schools - advice please!

[Oolon Colluphid]

(Hmmm. A toss-up between here and SL... please shunt to the right place if necessary!)

So my daughter has just turned eight. Her school's great. But, of course, they have to abide by the government legislation requiring daily 'Collective Worship'.

And just recently, out of nowhere, she's started doing the hands-together-eyes-closed-dear-god routine. (I'm not drastically worried: unprompted, she told me the other day that god was a made-up story :cool: ) However, when I asked where she got that from, she said they all had to do it at school. I told her she doesn't, if she doesn't want to. She said they do or they'll get told off.

So, the questions:

(1) Presumably she only has to attend the collective worship, not participate? They cannot make her pray (or even pretend), as long as she's respectful and not mucking about etc... or can they?

(2) I know I can 'withdraw' her from it, but don't want her to feel left out. If we withdraw her, can it be on a 'she can opt out if she wants' basis, or...?

Obviously I'll have to have it out with the school (phrases like 'what other superstitions are you teaching here?!' are already formulating in my mind :devil3: ), but has anyone else experience of this? Thoughts?

Cheers, Oolon

[David B]

You can ask her yourself if she wants to opt out.

It might be a good idea to clarify the point about attending v participating with the school.

Best I can do.

David B

[Dentarthurdent]

So my daughter has just turned eight. Her school's great. But, of course, they have to abide by the government legislation requiring daily 'Collective Worship'.

Government mandated worship?!? I didn't know the UK had such a thing.

[dancer_rnb]

Don't forget Matthew 6:5-6

[I_pity_the_fool]

First of all, I assume you're sending your kid to a state school. Public and church schools can do as they please with pupils under the age of 16.

(1) Presumably she only has to attend the collective worship, not participate? They cannot make her pray (or even pretend), as long as she's respectful and not mucking about etc... or can they?

(2) I know I can 'withdraw' her from it, but don't want her to feel left out. If we withdraw her, can it be on a 'she can opt out if she wants' basis, or...?

First, some links for Oolon:
Main text (http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/management/atoz/r/recollectiveworshipandtherighttowithdraw/)
Get a leaflet (http://www.dfes.gov.uk/publications/guidanceonthelaw/dfeepub/dfee_02.htm). In a bizarre throwback to the year 1994, the leaflet doesn't appear to be available on the web.
Legislation (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880040_en_2.htm#mdiv9)


(3) If the parent of any pupil in attendance at any maintained school requests that he may be wholly or partly excused—

(a) from attendance at religious worship in the school;

(b) from receiving religious education given in the school in accordance with the school's basic curriculum; or

(c) both from such attendance and from receiving such education;

the pupil shall be so excused accordingly until the request is withdrawn.

It seems to me that you ought to be able to say that you want your daughter to attend assembly, but not to have to bow her head in prayer. That is my reading of wholly or partly.

[David B]

Government mandated worship?!? I didn't know the UK had such a thing.

Why do you think we are so secular:devil3:

There are get out clauses - usually used by JWs. Atheists and agnostics tend not to use them because they don't want their kids to feel different. That was my parents excuse when I asked them, anyway.

David B

[Wild_Weasel]

The British Humanist Association (www.humanism.org.uk) has a section on Collective Worship that may be useful:

http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=1252

WW

[Don Alhambra]

Slightly irrelevant, but my school always got glowing OfSTED reports except for one thing - they consistently refused to have collective worship. They never actually got in trouble for it, but it was always mentioned.

It suited me fine. :)

[Oolon Colluphid]

Don, that's quite common. From '95-'01 I was in the Inspection & Advisory Service of the county council, and so got to see the Ofsted reports from loads of our schools. Whether or not the report was 'glowing', the phrase "needs to implement the requirement for collective worship" turned up rather a lot! :cool:

Generally: Thanks guys. The first thing is to ask her what she wants. It just sent my blood pressure into the stratosphere for her to tell me they had to do it or they'd get told off (she's at the age where Being Told Off is the most terrifying thing that can happen, poor little love).

[Goatboy2012]

I was older than eight, but for pretty much the entirety of my secondary schooling I didn’t bow my head or close my eyes for prayers during assembly, I never got in any trouble for it.

In fact, I could see pretty clearly that nearly every member of staff (except our evangelical headmaster and rather hot RE teacher) couldn't be arsed to take part themselves.

Government mandated worship?!? I didn't know the UK had such a thing.

Only in schools and at certain state occasions.

Remember, our (technical) head of state is also the (technical) head of the Anglican church, so (technically) you could claim the UK is a theocracy. Course you’d be really taking the piss out of the poor sods living in Iran if you did, but you wouldn’t be wrong.

[Stacey Melissa]

Mod note: Sending to CSS...

[Dean Anderson]

Get her to do what everyone used to do in our school...

She should bow her head (so the teachers can't see her eyes) but keep her eyes open - then try to make eye-contact with the people either side of her (who are almost guaranteed to also be faking it) and try to make them laugh.

Given that I'd estimate that about 90% of the kids will be faking it anyway, she would appear to be weird if she opted out completely.

Remember - tedious school prayers and boring religious assemblies are two of the most powerful weapons in the infidel arsenal when it comes to discouraging children from ever wanting to go to an actual church.

If it wasn't for this constant "religion is boring" message being promoted by our schools, I'm sure far more teens and young adults would be curious about Christianity...

[Jet Black]

tell her to pray to the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or Russel's teapot. I went to a catholic school so I got it three times a day. made damn sure I would be an atheist, but wasted many useful neural pathways on memorising our father and hail mary.

[Oolon Colluphid]

... or Our Farter, and Male Hairy, as we knew them... :D

[Don Alhambra]

tell her to pray to the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or Russel's teapot. I went to a catholic school so I got it three times a day. made damn sure I would be an atheist, but wasted many useful neural pathways on memorising our father and hail mary.

Yeah, I still remember those prayers even though I haven't said them for years. I even still know bits of masses, though admittedly singing them in Latin by my own personal choice (because I like the music) hasn't exactly helped me erase those memories!

[Howay the Toon]

At my high school, all the staff and sixth formers were in a sort of rota for leading the assembly. Whether it was religious in nature or not was entirely at the whim of whoever was leading it (so in practice it usually wasn't) they could then have a hymn sung or just play a record.

I remember one sixth former rambling on for ages about how this piece of music had moved him, changed his life, opened his eyes etc etc. Then he played....

"Puff the Magic Dragon"

Cue hilarity form students and, especially the younger members of staff.

I'm sure we would have failed the Ofsted inspection on Collective Act of Worship, but who was going to care. Since these reports are the only effective sanction in the legislation and these reports are only really used to provide information to prospective parents, and most prospective parents couldn't give a toss anyway, the legal requirement is widely ignored or implemented in a half-ass way.

If there were ever an attempt to discipline an otherwise excellent Headteacher or fine a school for non-compliance, there'd be uproar.

[Seeker630]

Yeah, I still remember those prayers even though I haven't said them for years. I even still know bits of masses, though admittedly singing them in Latin by my own personal choice (because I like the music) hasn't exactly helped me erase those memories!

Well damn----you saying that prompted me to sit back and try to say both of those prayers--and you know what? Even after 12 years of Catholic school, now I can't remember the last bit on the "Our Father" that makes it different from the protestant version--it's slightly longer as I recall--but I'm damned if I can remember it. Nor could I repeat the Hail Mary right now if I wanted to!

I must have said both of them thousands of times-----Florida moment here:rolleyes: