My problem with Free Will.

[GenesisNemesis]

I searched for Free Will on wikipedia, and the article gave me a question: do we really have Free Will? Are our choices only motivated by exterior, random events?

My answer is yes.

Wikipedia definition: The problem of free will is the problem of whether human beings exercise control over their own actions and decisions.

Take weather, for example. Are we able to excercise control over our own actions and decisions when there's a hurricane, or does the hurricane motivate our decisions?

Please point out any problems with my thought.

[untermensche]

I searched for Free Will on wikipedia, and the article gave me a question: do we really have Free Will? Are our choices only motivated by exterior, random events?

My answer is yes.

Please point out any problems with my thought.
What random exterior events do you think could have forced you to write this?

[fromdownunder]

I think the hurricane analogy is a bit wild (pun intended). But I do believe that most, if not all our actions and reactions are because of our mind's subconcious reactions to the building blocks that have gone on in our personal life prior to what we describe as "now".

You could ask "why did I reply to this thread?" and I could answer from both a "free will" point of view or a POV which suggests that because everything that has gone before led to this point where I had to reply to this thread in the exact way that I did.

I have, however, now come to the conclusion that it does not matter either way.

As long as I have the illusion of free will - I do not know beforehand what I am going to do - it does not matter whether it is because, hey, I really do have free will, or it is because "my genes and previous life events" made me do it.

Norm

[untermensche]

I think the question is; Can things added by humans as stimulation effect will?

Like wanting to kill your cheating wife, but thinking it is a sin and will land you in hell, so you don't.

[RexT]

The only case where it seems we do have free will is in dreams. Perhaps, that is where the notion originates, but it seems not to be the case that we have free will in the physical world of cause and effect.

Rex

[Draconis]

Another thought, could you tell if your "free will" simply appeared as a part of existence when you were born, or whether it was actually plopped down on you from above as a gift from a god?

[kennethamy]

I searched for Free Will on wikipedia, and the article gave me a question: do we really have Free Will? Are our choices only motivated by exterior, random events?

My answer is yes.

Wikipedia definition: The problem of free will is the problem of whether human beings exercise control over their own actions and decisions.

Take weather, for example. Are we able to excercise control over our own actions and decisions when there's a hurricane, or does the hurricane motivate our decisions?

Please point out any problems with my thought.


Not every circumstance we find ourselves in is a hurricane, when our decisions are more limited than they are in ordinary (non-hurricane) circumstances. So it doesn't seem to me reasonable to generalize from finding yourself in a hurricane, to finding yourself in normal, more manageable circumstances.

In more normal circumstances we can, and do, "exercise control over our decisions and actions" in any ordinary sense of what that means. For instance, when I have to decide whether to study tonight for an examination I am having, or whether to watch television (and there isn't a hurricane so that I may be unable to do either) even if there is something on television that I want very much to watch, I can (and sometimes do!) "control" my desire to watch television, and do something else that I do not want to do, like study.

It seems to me that when we think about questions like yours in the abstract, and without having any particular situation in mind, we are not likely to be able to focus on the issue. It is important, I think, to consider concrete examples like the one about studying or watching tv. After all, that is just the sort of thing we mean when we talk about exercising control over our decisions and actions". And I do that. And so, I suppose, do you.

[Canard DuJour]

I searched for Free Will on wikipedia, and the article gave me a question: do we really have Free Will? Are our choices only motivated by exterior, random events?

No. There is also conscious anticipation of the consequences of those choices, i.e. a self-referencing system which enables conscious actors to do something qualitatively different from, say, a phototropic micro-organism or a stone rolling down a hill.

This actually presumes causality and people ordinarily regard their choices as being 'free' to the extent that they are not prevented from realising an anticipated consequence by circumstances beyond their control.

If you define free will as some acausal ability to want what we don't want, then there is, by definition, no such thing.

[Hit & Miss]

No. There is also conscious anticipation of the consequences of those choices, i.e. a self-referencing system which enables conscious actors to do something qualitatively different from, say, a phototropic micro-organism or a stone rolling down a hill.

This actually presumes causality and people ordinarily regard their choices as being 'free' to the extent that they are not prevented from realising an anticipated consequence by circumstances beyond their control.

If you define free will as some acausal ability to want what we don't want, then there is, by definition, no such thing.:thumbs: Well put. This is going into my "Good Ideas" section in my browser's Favorites.

[kennethamy]

No. There is also conscious anticipation of the consequences of those choices, i.e. a self-referencing system which enables conscious actors to do something qualitatively different from, say, a phototropic micro-organism or a stone rolling down a hill.

This actually presumes causality and people ordinarily regard their choices as being 'free' to the extent that they are not prevented from realising an anticipated consequence by circumstances beyond their control.

If you define free will as some acausal ability to want what we don't want, then there is, by definition, no such thing.

I suppose that the First Amendment permits us to assign any meaning we like to any sound or mark. But why suppose that when we assign to the mark (or sound) "free will" the meaning, acausal choice or action, such an assignment would have anything to do with the meaning of "acting freely"?

[Canard DuJour]

I suppose that the First Amendment permits us to assign any meaning we like to any sound or mark. But why suppose that when we assign to the mark (or sound) "free will" the meaning, acausal choice or action, such an assignment would have anything to do with the meaning of "acting freely"?
Yeah, it's funny. Why are there always so many people falling over each other to bash that particular strawman? Could it be because "self-determination" and "libertarian" have right wing connotations from which they're anxious to distance themselves? As a socialist myself, I disagree - though I can see how it might conflict with "dialectical materialism" and "historic inevitability." Otherwise, dunno :huh:

Cheers btw, Hit & Miss.