I love my life! ... or ... Why I am an atheist. [Archive I]

Joan of Bark

September 17, 2006, 09:48 AM

Honestly, I've got such a great life that sometimes I have to pinch myself.

I live in a beautiful, warm country with a relatively easy job that pays well and affords me plenty of time to travel (my favourite activity). I have a wonderful, sexy girlfriend who adores me. I have my health, just as I always have. In fact, in my 47 years of life on this little blue marble I've never wanted for anything that I really needed. I was born in the best of times: the post-war years of western civilization.

I've visited 30 countries on five continents, and seen so many wonders of humanity and nature that it leaves me awestruck. I've piloted many kinds of aircraft, from paragliders to a helicopter. I've rock-climbed, scuba dived and sky-dived. Sometimes my life feels like a fantasy novel. Sure, I've had regrets, but like Frank said, too few to mention. Even if I were to drop dead tomorrow, I would have still lived a happier, more fulfilling life than 95% of all the humans that have ever lived (history's best lesson).

I say all this not to rub the noses in it of those less fortunate, but rather to point out how luck plays such a big role in our lives. Sure, I've made some good decisions, but basically good fortune has followed me around. If I was a theist, I'd be crediting God for all this.

Which brings me to my point: why should I have all this good fortune while Christians all over the world are suffering and scrabbling for a good life? I'm a militant atheist, for Satan's sake! Either He doesn't exist, or he's got a sick sense of humour.

And yes, please feel free to use my story whenever confronting a theist of any stripe. :devil3:

reddhedd

September 17, 2006, 10:14 AM

Many good theists will simply claim you are lying.:rolleyes:

Others will laugh and say "Enjoy it; you'll be burning in hell while I'm enjoying heavenly wonders you can't even imagine" :D

Hedshaker

September 17, 2006, 11:09 AM

Honestly, I've got such a great life that sometimes I have to pinch myself.

The richest man is he who has all that he wants :notworthy:

Jobar

September 17, 2006, 11:50 AM

Maybe God is good to atheists, because we aren't constantly pestering Him. :D

The existence and the happiness of atheists is an argument which, taken in conjunction with the Problem of Evil and the logical paradoxes of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, constitutes a practically airtight case against the existence of any god I've ever heard of. Not an absolute disproof, no, but that's only because the concept 'god' is so nebulous that it's impossible to pin it down.

Congratulations on having such a wonderful life; I'm not complaining, either! (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=160924) :)

Hedshaker

September 17, 2006, 12:13 PM

Maybe God is good to atheists, because we aren't constantly pestering Him. :D

Priceless :notworthy:

primitivefuture

September 17, 2006, 12:14 PM

I enjoy my life immensely and I am a theist.

Hedshaker

September 17, 2006, 12:22 PM

I enjoy my life immensely and I am a theist.

Me too and I am an atheist. What does that tell us? Apart from nothing.

Jobar

September 17, 2006, 02:02 PM

I enjoy my life immensely and I am a theist.

Well, good on yer. Seriously.

But the point of Joan's thread here, I'm sure, is that if there is a God who desires and rewards our belief in Him, then atheists should not find life as rewarding as do theists. A deistic god, uninvolved with the universe it creates, would be consistent with the existence and happiness of creatures that don't believe in god- but Jehovah supposedly *is* involved, and quite interested in the belief and worship of His creatures. Yet no evidence of such interest shows up in the physical world- we unbelievers seem to find no less happiness, and no more suffering, than do believers. If anything, unbelief is beneficial! (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3386645#post3386645)

angela2

September 17, 2006, 02:29 PM

But the point of Joan's thread here, I'm sure, is that if there is a God who desires and rewards our belief in Him, then atheists should not find life as rewarding as do theists.

What gives you that impression? My experience is that Christians lives are often harder than non-believers'. I guess it falls into the category of "pick up your cross and follow me."

Kassiana

September 17, 2006, 03:44 PM

Honestly, I've got such a great life that sometimes I have to pinch myself.
Great! Good to hear it.

if there is a God who desires and rewards our belief in Him
Nah. I don't see the Gods as discriminating against those who don't believe in them or paying us off for believing in them.

mirage

September 17, 2006, 03:56 PM

Jobar

September 17, 2006, 04:14 PM

Nah. I don't see the Gods as discriminating against those who don't believe in them or paying us off for believing in them.

Well, OK. But then, just why is it you believe in god(s)? You say you get no benefit from belief; do you have some argument that there is concrete evidence for the existence of your gods, who neither reward nor punish? (If you do, we ought to discuss it in a new thread- but I'm honestly curious.)

Kassiana

September 17, 2006, 04:27 PM

just why is it you believe in god(s)?
Because it's fun. I like it. It makes me happy.

You say you get no benefit from belief
No, I get no "I'm better than you are" benefits from my beliefs.

do you have some argument that there is concrete evidence for the existence of your gods
No. I was giving my opinion so that you don't think that all theists are a monolithic entity, all believing basically the same stuff about God(s).

Jobar

September 17, 2006, 04:32 PM

What gives you that impression? My experience is that Christians lives are often harder than non-believers'. I guess it falls into the category of "pick up your cross and follow me."

And yet you still believe. WHY? You have no evidential arguments, and if you see no reward in this life, do you believe solely on the promise of pie in the sky, by and by, when you die?

But all that is based only on words, angela! You have no way of knowing that Biff the Unclean isn't exactly right, and that your religion isn't just a huge and long-running con game!

Why would your God make it so that unbelievers in Him actually live better, in the world? Isn't it within His power to grant believers lives which are more satisfying- at least internally? (That would mean that believers would be on average happier, I think, and I don't see that, at all.)

Jobar

September 17, 2006, 04:36 PM

Kassiana, I know you aren't a Christian, but I think that Joan's point applies just as much to any belief in god or gods. You say that belief makes you happy- well, I'd think that true happiness, even though it's an internal state, would have clear effects on your external life, that all could see. (I make the same point to angela2, above.)

Kassiana

September 17, 2006, 04:44 PM

well, I'd think that true happiness, even though it's an internal state, would have clear effects on your external life
It does. People can tell when I'm happy, just like they can tell when you're happy. I'm not sure what you're getting at, here. I'm not claiming I get a super special Paganz Onlee kinda happy, just happy. The same as you get from eating pizza or watching a good movie or having some fantastic sex (well, okay, it's not always as good as sex...).

Jobar

September 17, 2006, 04:45 PM

It occurs to me that the 'reward' believers get, is immersion in the social aspects in your churches (or covens, as the case may be. ;)) I readily concede that we unbelievers don't have anything like the social networks that believers do (although we're workin' on it!) If that's so, then you can make an argument that the brother/sisterhood of belief constitutes a 'reward' which you might attribute to your god(s). Do either of you ladies want to go with that line?

Kassiana

September 17, 2006, 04:48 PM

Um, I already said I'm not making an argument. If you're looking for one, I'm just going to leave this thread. :)

Jobar

September 17, 2006, 04:56 PM

It does. People can tell when I'm happy, just like they can tell when you're happy. I'm not sure what you're getting at, here. I'm not claiming I get a super special Paganz Onlee kinda happy, just happy. The same as you get from eating pizza or watching a good movie or having some fantastic sex (well, okay, it's not always as good as sex...).

But see, we atheists can have just the same sort of happiness, without having to believe in anything which stretches the credibility of anyone, Kass. You don't have any sort of happiness which results directly from your belief- hey, we atheists have our own orgies, which I think are just as good as the ones you Pagans have. ;)

Understand, please, I think that you Pagans are cool. You don't disparage the earthly happiness we unbelievers say is the only sort there is, as so many believers in Abrahamic traditions do. Still and all, I don't see why you actually *believe* in your gods. If you want to play it as a game, like, oh, the Society for Creative Anachronism plays at living in bygone societies, I have no least problem understanding that; but 'true belief' in anything outside of physical reality just seems so useless, to me! Can you make that any clearer for me?

Kassiana

September 17, 2006, 05:21 PM

we atheists can have just the same sort of happiness, without having to believe in anything which stretches the credibility of anyone
Yes. And people can be happy without reading. People can be happy without seeing movies. People can be happy without owning computers. But you know what? I like books, movies, and computers, so I'm not giving them up.

You don't have any sort of happiness which results directly from your belief
I never said my happiness was "better" or "different." I just have a different hobby that makes me happy. I don't deny, for example, that my dad gets happiness by listening to Car Talk on NPR and Motorweek on public TV. I don't, but I don't deny that those things make him happy. Are you saying that because I get my happiness from a different source, my happiness is somehow "wrong"? That seems inordinately silly to me.

Not that I'm against inordinate silliness. Gods know we semi-Discordians love the silly. But saying I shouldn't engage in it because "well, you could get happy from another source" ... so what? My dad could give up his car love, but he doesn't because he likes it. Why should I give up my Pagan love? Because atheists don't like it?

I don't see why you actually *believe* in your gods.
You shouldn't. You're not me. I don't see why anyone likes sports or (IMO) bad movies. But they do.

Can you make that any clearer for me?
I'm not you. I've had subjective spiritual experiences that have made me happy. You haven't. Just like my dad has had subjective experiences that make him like cars that I haven't.

Jobar

September 17, 2006, 05:50 PM

Kass, I made a post earlier about science fiction & fantasy fans, here. (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3761052#post3761052) In it I said that there's a clear difference between the suspension of disbelief which sf fans exhibit, and the uncritical belief which theists of all types demonstrate (or so it seems to me.)

I'm really trying to understand, here. Do you have faith in your gods, that is, do you have a positive belief in their reality? Or do you just play at it, the way I do when I preach about the Invisible Pink Unicorn? (Which is a subjective experience that has done a lot to make me happy, I might note. :))

Your responses so far haven't helped me understand your position, and since you are a regular here, aren't you interested in doing that- in making your beliefs understood? Honestly, I'm not attacking your beliefs here- IMO none of the ones you've written about is in the least attack-worthy. I just want to understand better what they are, and why you hold them!

Kassiana

September 17, 2006, 06:00 PM

Do you have faith in your gods
Yes.

do you have a real belief in their reality?
Kind of. I'm not fanatical, nor do I believe that I can prove to anyone else that what I believe is true. I recognize that I could well be wrong and my head could just be playing with itself.

Right now, we're talking about stuff that makes us happy, I thought. Not about anything else.

Your responses so far haven't helped me understand your position
I'm sorry. It's about the best I could do, comparing something that makes me happy to something that makes someone else happy, so that you could understand I'm different than you and thus different things make me happy. I thought it was pretty clear, actually.

Do you believe, in non-religious spheres, people can like things you intensely dislike, and those things honestly do make them happy? If so, what's the difference with religious spheres?

aren't you interested in doing that- in making your beliefs understood?
I'm a member of at least one anti-proselytizing religion. I'm not particularly interested in getting others to share my beliefs. I'm not a fanatic, either, so not all my beliefs are spelled out or other-shareable without making me look dogmatic. Do you understand? It always seems to me that when I'm being questioned about my beliefs, I end up looking far more "fundie" than I actually am. I don't hold any religious belief without some doubt.

The reason I've been responding so far is that you didn't seem to "get" that things can make me happy that you find utterly useless. I hope this is just miscommunication, and that you do understand that (e.g.) someone can actually like Friday the 13th when you don't.

I'm not attacking your beliefs here
Thanks. I do appreciate that.

I just want to understand better what they are, and why you hold them!
Like I said, Jobar, it honestly is all subjective. I wouldn't say my religious beliefs are on the same level as hobbies for me, but it's the best way I have of describing why I like (Pagan/UU) when you don't. I haven't found a better one yet.

Gotta go make money. Be back when I'm back.

Truth_Seeker

September 17, 2006, 06:12 PM

If nothing else, the atheist is 10% richer than the faithful believer. And if one tithes on gross income, such as some fundamentalist churches suggest, that could be a car payment for a lot of families.

At any rate, I am more content and happy with my life now, than at any time I was a faithful believer. Not only that, but since my deconversion, I have had more time to devote to, not only my family, but also my work. This has resulted in a much stronger family bond, and a financially better situation at work. These benefits are a direct result of devoting more time, thought and effort to these areas of my life.

I can hear my former pastor now.....Oh ye sinfull brother! Repent before it's too late! You are enjoying the pleasures of sin but for a season, but yours is a path of destruction. It only appears that you are doing well, but inside, your heart is troubled, and you are in constant turmoil. Lay up for yourself riches in heaven!

ziffel

September 17, 2006, 06:39 PM

I can hear my former pastor now.....Oh ye sinfull brother! Repent before it's too late! You are enjoying the pleasures of sin but for a season, but yours is a path of destruction. It only appears that you are doing well, but inside, your heart is troubled, and you are in constant turmoil. Lay up for yourself riches in heaven!

the pastor shouts, as he drives away in his new Mercedes...

Jobar

September 17, 2006, 07:02 PM

Right now, we're talking about stuff that makes us happy, I thought. Not about anything else.

Mmmm, no. We're talking about happiness that believers get as a result of their belief, more like. And I surely understand that some people get happiness from things that leave me completely cold- but at the same time, I can see that there's actually something there for them to be interested in! I don't have any use for sports, myself, and can even make some good arguments that professional sports are a real negative force in modern society- but I know from experience that the adrenalin rush you can get from watching sports is real, and enjoyable.

I understand that your religion doesn't require you to proselytize, and I like that about it. You suffer, unjustly I think, because you self-identify as a theist on a board where the great majority of theists are Christians, so you frequently get tarred with the same brush they do. I do try to avoid doing that, but at the same time I don't understand why people hold to any sort of supernatural beliefs. If you do your religion as a hobby, or because of the social aspects, I can understand that quite well, though. Thus, my questions here.

I look forward to more discussions about your beliefs, as I do find them interesting, and more humane than most. J.

primitivefuture

September 17, 2006, 07:05 PM

I enjoy my life immensely thanks only to God.

angela2

September 17, 2006, 07:20 PM

And yet you still believe. WHY? You have no evidential arguments, and if you see no reward in this life, do you believe solely on the promise of pie in the sky, by and by, when you die?

But all that is based only on words, angela! You have no way of knowing that Biff the Unclean isn't exactly right, and that your religion isn't just a huge and long-running con game!

Why would your God make it so that unbelievers in Him actually live better, in the world? Isn't it within His power to grant believers lives which are more satisfying- at least internally? (That would mean that believers would be on average happier, I think, and I don't see that, at all.)
Why? Well, if Jesus suffered, I'm not surprised that I suffer. In fact, Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble."

It's great when believers don't have troubles. But by and large, people who have troubles and still believe make much better witnesses.

You see, I believe because Jesus Christ made it possible for me to have a relationship with God. I don't believe because of what I can get out of God.

Oh yes. I know just how impoverished my life would be if I only believed that for which I had evidence. Been there, done that.

MadPhatCat

September 17, 2006, 07:29 PM

I enjoy my life immensely thanks only to God.

No offense, but that makes you sound like a pathetic excuse for a human being if you or any other person you know has nothing to do with joy in your life. Prior to finding god, were you a clinically depressed shut in or something?

MadPhatCat

September 17, 2006, 07:37 PM

I don't believe because of what I can get out of God.

Oh yes. I know just how impoverished my life would be if I only believed that for which I had evidence. Been there, done that.

No offense, but in those statements up there you just basically admitted that your religion is a giant crutch. You don't believe because of what you can get out of god? Really!? It sure seems like you do. Without your god belief you would be impoverished. You just implied you don't want to stop believing because you don't want to be impoverished again. Sounds like crutch city to me.

We know others here have happy, enriched lives without religion. . . so what does that say about you when imply you cannot?

Tigers!

September 17, 2006, 07:42 PM

primitivefuture

September 17, 2006, 07:46 PM

No offense, but that makes you sound like a pathetic excuse for a human being if you or any other person you know has nothing to do with joy in your life. Prior to finding god, were you a clinically depressed shut in or something?

God has given me life, He has given enough to sustain life, and it is God who has enriched my life with joy and love. What more can you ask for?

Peace.

angela2

September 17, 2006, 07:56 PM

No offense, but in those statements up there you just basically admitted that your religion is a giant crutch. You don't believe because of what you can get out of god? Really!? It sure seems like you do.
Oh, this must be one of those posts. You know, the ones that say I read what you wrote but I know you don't mean it. I'm beginning to have more confidence that atheists are into mnd reading.

Without your god belief you would be impoverished.
When I was without God my life was impoverished.

You just implied you don't want to stop believing because you don't want to be impoverished again.
Well, it's true that I don't want to live my life without God.
Sounds like crutch city to me.
Can't help what it sounds like to you.

We know others here have happy, enriched lives without religion. . . so what does that say about you when imply you cannot?
I must have a lower threshold for impoverishment than they do.

The Arbiter

September 17, 2006, 08:33 PM

It's sad that people as pathetic as these are allowed to obtain positions of power in our society. They should be helped, not encouraged.

MadPhatCat

September 17, 2006, 08:51 PM

Oh, this must be one of those posts. You know, the ones that say I read what you wrote but I know you don't mean it. I'm beginning to have more confidence that atheists are into mnd reading.

Mind reading eh? Well let's see how I did.

When I was without God my life was impoverished.
Duh. 1 for 1. Of course I got this one right. You said that explicitly in your last post.

Well, it's true that I don't want to live my life without God.
So far I have been 2 for 2... <Cue Spooly Music>... I must be *reading your mind*

Can't help what it sounds like to you.
Well that's a non-answer. Still 2 for 2. Can I be 3 for 3....?

I must have a lower threshold for impoverishment than they do.
DUN DUN DUN. Now I will work my mind reading magic again. Here you are implying all atheists who claim to be happy, enriched, in love with their life or whatever they want to call it, are actually just wrong. They are impoverished, they just don't realize it. There must be something wrong with their impoverishment meter.

SO, angela, did my magic mind reading powers fail me this time? If they did, I can't even begin to guess what the fuck you were trying to say there. So please, explain yourself. I mean, the only other interpretation I can get from your sentence is what I already said - while others may do fine and and be happy in their lives without religion, you specifically need the crutch of religion.

So either you're different and in need of a crutch, or everyone life is "impoverished" even though many say they are not. So which is it? Or is there something I am missing?

Imnotspecial

September 17, 2006, 09:22 PM

God has given me life, He has given enough to sustain life, and it is God who has enriched my life with joy and love. What more can you ask for?

Peace.

Seems to me that Muslims are particularly into this god thing. How is it then, if god makes them happy, that they need to blow up other people? Does that make them even happier?

Or are they so unhappy that others are happy without god and want them to be as miserable as they are themselves?

Joan of Bark

September 17, 2006, 09:51 PM

I'm absolutely tickled that my thread has resulted in so many thoughtful responses. Thanks to all.

geddit?

September 17, 2006, 10:14 PM

Theism is a belief system - not a fact.
Atheism is a belief system - not a fact.

Because you believe something unproven, does it entitle you to tell another that they're hellbound to suffer unspeakable horrors for eternity? Maybe just your opinion?
If so, it doesn't seem to be a very nice or friendship inducing opinion. I think that opinion could potentially make a person some enemies. But that would be the fault of the person that disagrees with me because I'm right - EVEN THOUGH I CAN'T PROVE IT.

Because you believe something unproven, does it entitle you to deny the basis for joy and happiness in their lives and refer to it a nothing but a crutch?
If so, it doesn't seem to be a very nice or friendship inducing opinion. I think that opinion could potentially make a person some enemies. But that would be the fault of the person that disagrees with me because I'm right - EVEN THOUGH I CAN'T PROVE IT.

Where are the well reasoned arguments?
Please point them out to me because I seem to have missed them.

My apologies for my ignorance,

geddit?

MadPhatCat

September 17, 2006, 11:00 PM

Because you believe something unproven, does it entitle you to deny the basis for joy and happiness in their lives and refer to it a nothing but a crutch?

Hello my fellow New Yorker. How does calling a particular belief a "crutch" a denial that said belief is the basis for joy and happiness? In fact, my damn argument assumes angela's religious belief is the basis for her joy. My question is why do some people seem to require that belief while others are perfectly fine without it? Why do believers imply that everyone not religious (or not of Religion X) are lying about their happiness or their enriched lives? Are those not thoughtful questions?

If so, it doesn't seem to be a very nice or friendship inducing opinion. I think that opinion could potentially make a person some enemies.

Enemies? You are joking right? I read a post which pretty clearly showed me how someone was using religious belief as a crutch to feel good (as they admitted they would be "impoverished" without it, and implied they could not do without it). I am supposed to hold my tongue?

geddit?

September 18, 2006, 01:16 AM

Hiya back to you my fellow New Yorker. :)

You didn't deny it as a basis - I perhaps should have said a "reasonable basis"? My bad.

Just looking at what you said again - underlines by me.

No offense, but in those statements up there you just basically admitted that your religion is a giant crutch. You don't believe because of what you can get out of god? Really!? It sure seems like you do. Without your god belief you would be impoverished. You just implied you don't want to stop believing because you don't want to be impoverished again. Sounds like crutch city to me.

When I read angela2's post, what I got from it was someone saying very benign terms, without proselytizing, how belief has enriched her life(in terms of her happiness) as an end in itself.

Could losing that enrichment make a person feel impoverished? Could a person that loses a loved one feel impoverised? Could a person that loses their pet dog maybe feel a little impoverished? What's so difficult about granting them that?

I think it's pretty safe to say from your response that you disagree with her and that her reasoning for her belief didn't cut it.

Dude - I don't agree with her either, religion ain't for me.
I still respect her and her belief as she stated it.
Same way I hold little respect for dogma that says I'm amoral and condemned to hell - if I don't agree with said dogma.:rolleyes: But it's not a threat, it's a promise....
A promise based on nothing but that person's belief in....
The aforementioned dogma. I'm supposed to respect that?
And that's usually the best I can get from believers....
Hey - that's just me though.

Now you....

Could you consider refering to someone's religious beliefs as a "crutch" belittling?
Could refering to it in such a way be an attempt to deny it of it's value?

I'm not saying it's right, wrong or indifferent but -
Don't you think an attempt to belittle something a person perceives to be of great value an insult?

Could that possibly make you an enemy of that person?

You're from New York - walk into a bar, find a guy bigger than you and then belittle his mother. See if he thinks you're joking. Actually, I'd prefer you didn't do that - but can you see where I'm coming from?

geddit?

Biff the unclean

September 18, 2006, 01:56 AM

My question is why do some people seem to require that belief while others are perfectly fine without it?

If you have ever read The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (as opposed to seeing the movie) this is a major plot line. The Scarecrow is brilliant, the Tin Woodsman is loving and the Lion is as brave as brave can be. But they have all been sold on a belief system that convinced them that they were lacking, they were “fallen” and imperfect. The leader of this belief system was able to give each of them what they most desired only because they already had it.

Why do some people need the Wizard? The book says it’s because they have been taken in by “humbug.”

Biff the unclean

September 18, 2006, 02:07 AM

Could you consider refering to someone's religious beliefs as a "crutch" belittling?
Could refering to it in such a way be an attempt to deny it of it's value?

Where you seem to be coming from is wanting to censor religious discussion on a religious discussion board. If Angela doesn’t mind calling all men “sinners” then why should she mind the blatant crutch she is using called a crutch?
He isn't denying it's value at all, as it has no real value. It's lack of value (since those who don't have it don't really need it)is the point of this thread.

Ratel

September 18, 2006, 02:10 AM

I believe in God, although I reject the historical claims of Christianity and the Bible. In my case, yes, in many ways my belief in God is a "crutch" of sorts, I find myself praying to "Him" frequently, in times of need and despair, and alsotimes of happiness. I'm somewhat prone to depression.

I also fully admit to having a far less prosperous and enriching life than the OP, although I've found love, at least, and have my small triumphs.

I never did believe in a God that interacted much with the phenomenal world, or stooped down to answer our requests, yet against all reason I've seen my prayers answered.

You will reply, "well, this is confirmation bias on your part, these things would have happened anyway.".

True, I cannot prove any of these things happened, nor that they were of supernatural origin, nor can I even demonstrate such a thing as the "supernatural" does or can exist. Moreover, the rational side of me is confounded by the problems a prayer-answering God presents:

Why would God relieve me of a toothache, or help me find a job, and leave unanswered the desperate cries of the girl being raped and murdered? What are we dealing with here? My mind recoils at trying to understand such an inconsistency. I would rip that man to pieces were I, a mere mortal, in that room where he was torturing that child. But her prayers weren't answered. Evil prevailed. (I'm thinking specifically of situation Biff the Unclean presented some time back, it stuck with me as a vivid illustration of the problem of the Theist's God)

So perhaps my God belief is after all a huge psychological crutch, something that helps me function as an autonomous adult, something to strengthen me. But considering how my psyche has been damaged by overzealous parents and fanatical churchmen, I think I must continue walking this path to whatever truth it leads to. I have no strength otherwise. Its a grand play going on in my mind, I the tiny speck of organic material and the Author of the Cosmos in intimate conversation.

This probably reads like the confessions of a madman, except that billions play the same game. I need it, my guess is they do as well.

Ratel

September 18, 2006, 02:12 AM

double posted like an idiot

southernhybrid

September 18, 2006, 07:37 AM

I also live a very charmed and happy life but I reject the idea that it's my beliefs that have made me happy. Certainly, there was a sense of relief when I first realized that the harsh sect of Xianity taught to me as a child was false. Such an irrational and unjust system as conservative Xianity never made me happy, but my life was filled with pain and suffering in the early years of my atheism.

The suffering was not related to my beliefs but to the circumstances of my life. In the majority of cases, suffering and sorrow are due to one's situation in life. I will say that it was due to my own determination as well as random circumstances that have helped me build a much better life. Although some individuals will find ways to cope with the aide of their personal philosophies, regardless of whether they are theistic or atheistic in nature, most of us are impacted more by genetics predisposition, education, personality, and our own personal drive when it comes to creating a happy life.

And Jobar! Stop stealing our material. You know what I'm talking about. :Cheeky:

angela2

September 18, 2006, 11:00 AM

You're from New York - walk into a bar, find a guy bigger than you and then belittle his mother. See if he thinks you're joking. Actually, I'd prefer you didn't do that - but can you see where I'm coming from?
Hi geddit?

Welcome to the forum and thanks.

BTW, how did you know I was bigger than him? :D

Truth_Seeker

September 18, 2006, 12:22 PM

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz

If ever oh ever a God there was, the God of the Bible is one because.
Because? Because, because, because, because!!!
Because of the wonderful things he does.

A great comparison Biff.

When a person realizes that they are in control of their own life, and that there is no magical wizard in the sky who can help them, this enables them to take charge of their life and direct their own path instead of wasting time praying to a god who isn't there for help and guidance.

MadPhatCat

September 18, 2006, 12:48 PM

Hi geddit?

Welcome to the forum and thanks.

BTW, how did you know I was bigger than him? :D

Hey now, way to go. Do your best to ignore my comments about your weird contradictory statements ("I don't need nothing from God, don't ask for nothing from him, but boy, the only way my life is any good is with god, and without god I'd suck, I sure need that god to feel good in my life").

Also do your best to subtly insult everyone by implying anyone who says their life is good without god, are liars or ignorant or something.

The point that geddidt does not get, is that any of this shit would be "insulting" to a thin skinned idiot. A Christian thinking a Muslim is full of baloney and vice versa could be insulting. Or it could just be a discussion on religious beliefs. Apparently neither geddidt it or you angela, cannot tolerate such discussions on religious beliefs... which is surprising for you, angela, when you claim everyone is a sinner or all those non-impoverished atheists are liars.

I'd appreciate an actual comment to what I wrote angela. I came up with two interpretations for what you said. Is one of those right? If not, please outline what you meant.

angela2

September 18, 2006, 02:18 PM

I'd appreciate an actual comment to what I wrote angela. I came up with two interpretations for what you said. Is one of those right? If not, please outline what you meant.
I reserve the right to respond only to the posts I choose. This is the only response you are going to get because I didn't like the tone of your post nor did I appreciate the "F" word.

angela2

September 18, 2006, 02:26 PM

I'd ask everyone to note for future reference, not that it isn't apparent, that I never called anyone a liar nor did I suggest anyone was a liar.

maxxmann

September 18, 2006, 02:36 PM

I know I am joining late, but here is my two cents worth.

Honestly, I've got such a great life that sometimes I have to pinch myself.

I live in a beautiful, warm country with a relatively easy job that pays well and affords me plenty of time to travel (my favourite activity). I have a wonderful, sexy girlfriend who adores me. I have my health, just as I always have. In fact, in my 47 years of life on this little blue marble I've never wanted for anything that I really needed. I was born in the best of times: the post-war years of western civilization.

I've visited 30 countries on five continents, and seen so many wonders of humanity and nature that it leaves me awestruck. I've piloted many kinds of aircraft, from paragliders to a helicopter. I've rock-climbed, scuba dived and sky-dived. Sometimes my life feels like a fantasy novel. Sure, I've had regrets, but like Frank said, too few to mention. Even if I were to drop dead tomorrow, I would have still lived a happier, more fulfilling life than 95% of all the humans that have ever lived (history's best lesson).

I say all this not to rub the noses in it of those less fortunate, but rather to point out how luck plays such a big role in our lives. Sure, I've made some good decisions, but basically good fortune has followed me around. If I was a theist, I'd be crediting God for all this.

Which brings me to my point: why should I have all this good fortune while Christians all over the world are suffering and scrabbling for a good life? I'm a militant atheist, for Satan's sake! Either He doesn't exist, or he's got a sick sense of humour.

And yes, please feel free to use my story whenever confronting a theist of any stripe. :devil3:

You certainly have experienced many beautiful things and I am glad you have. You have brought what seems to be a problem for some(how can god allow an atheist...while a christian...) but as I see that your definition of the "good life" while extremely attractive is limited in its scope. There are many people whom you may very well desribe as, "scrabbling for a good life" who are amazed each and every day with their good life.

Just this morning I was surf-fishing with a friend as the sun was rising on the horizon and he was commenting on how well his children were doing. His children are older, college age and late highschool, while my children are 3,4 and 5 years old. He reflected on how the time has flown and yet how good it had been thus far. It had been so good, he pinches himself just to make sure it hasn't been a dream. He is enjoying the good life and yet, as far as I know, he has not experienced all that you have. He has his share of finanicial(sp?) problems and is caring full-time for his 90 year old mother-in-law. Both he and I enjoyed our time together, talked about church among other things. He went off to his job and I went off to mine.

I almost had to pinch myself, too!

I do wonder how you would view all this, if say, one day all your "good fortune" was gone and you found yourself "scrabbling for the good life?"

Biff the unclean

September 18, 2006, 02:46 PM

I'd ask everyone to note for future reference, not that it isn't apparent, that I never called anyone a liar nor did I suggest anyone was a liar.
From the number of people who have requested apologies from you... no, it isn't apparent. It isn't apparent at all.

MadPhatCat

September 18, 2006, 02:53 PM

I reserve the right to respond only to the posts I choose. This is the only response you are going to get because I didn't like the tone of your post nor did I appreciate the "F" word.

You also reserve the right to look like a damn fool. You talk about me with another poster, joking about me, so you did in fact respond to me. But unfortunately, you completely ignored the substantive points I brought up. How does that look when you ignore the discussion? Looks like you ignore arguments you don't want to answer and make up lame excuses to justify it. No one appreciates that.

I'd ask everyone to note for future reference, not that it isn't apparent, that I never called anyone a liar not did I suggest anyone was a liar.

Hey look, an answer, sort of. I love how asking you to clarify or to say if either of my interpretations are right is like pulling teeth.

Anyway, if not liars (which is very debatable), then what you said earlier heavily implied that everyone non-religious is ignorant or delusional when it comes to their own appraisal of their happiness. How is that any better than calling them liars? (Note: If I am wrong again, you need to tell us all what in the blazes you did actually mean by your statements, because I can't come up with any other interpretations).

I find it funny how you are trying to save face, or are at least worried that "accusing others of lying" is something too bad for you to do when you are fine telling most people here that they are sinners.
Apparently lying (a specific sin) is worse than sinning in general. :huh:

geddit?

September 18, 2006, 03:00 PM

Where you seem to be coming from is wanting to censor religious discussion on a religious discussion board.

You are incorrect. You presume to know where I'm coming from?:rolleyes:

If Angela doesn’t mind calling all men “sinners” then why should she mind the blatant crutch she is using called a crutch?

She indeed said that - on another thread - had to look for it. "Sin" being defined as going against (G)od's will. I don't agree with her. She also spoke about her belief in personal terms and put everyone on equal footing. I don't agree with her system of putting those beliefs into place, but as the end result is benign - I've got no problem with it. The figurative reading of "crutch" that I'm making here has you and Mad equating her belief with that of an alcohol or drug user loading up to make it through the day - and that is it's figurative meaning according to Websters Medical. From what I read of her posts, that comparison seemed unfair and derogatory. If I am incorrect, provide your definition. I won't play at semantics.

He isn't denying it's value at all, as it has no real value. It's lack of value (since those who don't have it don't really need it)is the point of this thread.

The point that I was trying to make, albeit poorly, is that the value is perceived(I stated this previously),very personal and very important to her - which is what I read in her posts - and the thread starter as well. Who are you to judge or assign that value to another? In very certain terms no less, which looks like high ground grabbing to me. That aint discussing a thing in my book. The other point I was trying to make is that when you lay that judgement on another person's world view/belief system and attempt(as you did here) to render it worthless - you invite enmity. I don't think anyone deserves said enmity, I'm saying it's there. Just like I think angela2 deserves a little more tact and respect from those that disagree with her.

I'm just trying to make a point here - not tell anyone how to act on these forums.

geddit?

geddit?

September 18, 2006, 03:03 PM

From the number of people who have requested apologies from you... no, it isn't apparent. It isn't apparent at all.

Make it apparent....

geddit?

September 18, 2006, 03:15 PM

Hey now, way to go. Do your best to ignore my comments about your weird contradictory statements ("I don't need nothing from God, don't ask for nothing from him, but boy, the only way my life is any good is with god, and without god I'd suck, I sure need that god to feel good in my life").

She admitted to the contradictions in her beliefs.
They rest is you spewing bro....

Also do your best to subtly insult everyone by implying anyone who says their life is good without god, are liars or ignorant or something.

Provide a reference. I say your above statement false.

The point that geddidt does not get, is that any of this shit would be "insulting" to a thin skinned idiot. A Christian thinking a Muslim is full of baloney and vice versa could be insulting. Or it could just be a discussion on religious beliefs. Apparently neither geddidt it or you angela, cannot tolerate such discussions on religious beliefs... which is surprising for you, angela, when you claim everyone is a sinner or all those non-impoverished atheists are liars.

Point I'm making is that the the is full of thin skin idiots.
and you you don't get the answers you want you turn to grounless acusation and mud slinging - some discussion.:rolleyes:

geddit?

September 18, 2006, 03:26 PM

You also reserve the right to look like a damn fool. You talk about me with another poster, joking about me, so you did in fact respond to me. But unfortunately, you completely ignored the substantive points I brought up. How does that look when you ignore the discussion? Looks like you ignore arguments you don't want to answer and make up lame excuses to justify it. No one appreciates that.

You also reserve the right to look like a damn fool.
The joke was harmless, thin skin.
She admitted lack of proof and contradiction, not good enough for you and you begin an attack.

Hey look, an answer, sort of. I love how asking you to clarify or to say if either of my interpretations are right is like pulling teeth.

Anyway, if not liars (which is very debatable), then what you said earlier heavily implied that everyone non-religious is ignorant or delusional when it comes to their own appraisal of their happiness. How is that any better than calling them liars? (Note: If I am wrong again, you need to tell us all what in the blazes you did actually mean by your statements, because I can't come up with any other interpretations).

Show the inference or there is nothing to debate....
And you have no problem implying delusion or ignorance regarding theists?

ROFL

I find it funny how you are trying to save face, or are at least worried that "accusing others of lying" is something too bad for you to do when you are fine telling most people here that they are sinners.
Apparently lying (a specific sin) is worse than sinning in general. :huh:

Uh dude....
She simply denied your unsubstantiated accusation.

geddit?

Biff the unclean

September 18, 2006, 03:32 PM

The point that I was trying to make, albeit poorly, is that the value is perceived(I stated this previously),very personal and very important to her - which is what I read in her posts - and the thread starter as well. Who are you to judge or assign that value to another?

If the care label on your expensive cashmere sweater says “Dry Clean Only” and you take it to the Laundromat then you have no one to blame but yourself when it is ruined.
If your religious beliefs are very personal and very important to you and you take them to a Non Theist internet discussion board then again you have no one but yourself to blame when they shrink.
Who am I to judge? I’m an intelligent Atheist posting on an Atheistic board. I don’t respect superstition. I would like to see humankind freed from it. If I receive the enmity of the die-hard superstitious then I’m doing something right.

MadPhatCat

September 18, 2006, 03:33 PM

Point I'm making is that the the is full of thin skin idiots.
and you you don't get the answers you want you turn to grounless acusation and mud slinging - some discussion.:rolleyes:

Right, when I notice a glaring contradiction, and then try to interpret their response to my notice, and offer multiple interpretations, and ask for the person to clarify and elaborate on what they said I am not discussing at all. That apparently is mudslinging. But then again, you think calling a belief a "crutch" makes "enemies." Of course, there is evidence of her belief being a crutch in her own words, but apparently I can't tell others of this for some reason. Just as Muslims aren't allowed to say to a Christian that Jesus wasn't the son of God, as that value is perceived to be very personal and very important to any Christian. Why it is all mudslinging! :rolleyes:

In your world, honest open opinions between people of differing religions or no religions are not discussions eh?

Provide a reference. I say your above statement false.

I don't give a fuck what you say. The reference is further back in the thread, where I foolishly and unsucessfully attempted to get someone to discuss a religious comment of theirs in a religious discussion forum.

You also reserve the right to look like a damn fool.
The joke was harmless, thin skin.

The joke wasn't harmless, I may have pulled a muscle laughing at how quick she chimed in. But what actually isn't harmless is her belief she is entitled to have a discussion completely on her terms. Discussions are two way streets. A pattern of blow offs or subject changes is not harmless. Making explicit sweeping statements or implying them and then running away when questioned on it is not harmless.

Truth_Seeker

September 18, 2006, 03:35 PM

You certainly have experienced many beautiful things and I am glad you have. You have brought what seems to be a problem for some(how can god allow an atheist...while a christian...) but as I see that your definition of the "good life" while extremely attractive is limited in its scope. There are many people whom you may very well desribe as, "scrabbling for a good life" who are amazed each and every day with their good life.

Just this morning I was surf-fishing with a friend as the sun was rising on the horizon and he was commenting on how well his children were doing. His children are older, college age and late highschool, while my children are 3,4 and 5 years old. He reflected on how the time has flown and yet how good it had been thus far. It had been so good, he pinches himself just to make sure it hasn't been a dream. He is enjoying the good life and yet, as far as I know, he has not experienced all that you have. He has his share of finanicial(sp?) problems and is caring full-time for his 90 year old mother-in-law. Both he and I enjoyed our time together, talked about church among other things. He went off to his job and I went off to mine.

I too have had my fair share of troubles in life....as do a lot of otherwise happy, well adjusted people. And I also realize that, while things are going good for me now, things could change at any moment, just as they have in the past. But looking back at my life, I can see that, overall, things have been pretty damn good for me and my family in spite of all of the bad....maybe even because of all of the trials. As I said before, I believe a persons life is what they make it. You asked this question:

I do wonder how you would view all this, if say, one day all your "good fortune" was gone and you found yourself "scrabbling for the good life?"

I realize that this question is probably directed to Joan of Bark, but I would like to give my own personal views on this question.

Tragedy and just plain old bad luck are certainly no respecter of persons. They can happen to anyone at anytime. The difference with me would be, that I would not spend my time wondering why God was picking on me, or believing that God was putting me through trials to make me stronger or come closer to him, or that he had some “Master plan” for my life. I would view it as just that....tragedy and/or bad luck. Of course no one can say for certain what they would do when handed a heaping shit load of tragedy and misfortune. But I would like to think that I would continue to live my life with the attitude that I am in charge and in control, and that this life is all I have, so I better damn well do all I can to make the most of it.

I taught this little blessing to my kids to counter the other one they learned at daycare, to teach them that only through hard work can one achieve their goals.

Mom works hard,
Dad does too.
Let us thank them for our food.
By their jobs
we are fed.
Thanks mom and dad for daily bread.
Let’s-Eat!

Tom Sawyer

September 18, 2006, 03:42 PM

Mom works hard,
Dad does too.
Let us thank them for our food.
By their jobs
we are fed.
Thanks mom and dad for daily bread.
Let’s-Eat!

I prefer the Bart Simpson version:

Dear God, we paid for this food ourselves, so thanks for nothing.

Truth_Seeker

September 18, 2006, 03:51 PM

I prefer the Bart Simpson version:

Dear God, we paid for this food ourselves, so thanks for nothing.

:rolling:

geddit?

September 18, 2006, 03:56 PM

If the care label on your expensive cashmere sweater says “Dry Clean Only” and you take it to the Laundromat then you have no one to blame but yourself when it is ruined.

She threw it out there - you did the wash. good game.

If your religious beliefs are very personal and very important to you and you take them to a Non Theist internet discussion board then again you have no one but yourself to blame when they shrink.

You're happy with shrinking? - you insisted on shredding.
discussion? dialogue? communication? from you? c'mon.

Who am I to judge? I’m an intelligent Atheist posting on an Atheistic board. I don’t respect superstition. I would like to see humankind freed from it. If I receive the enmity of the die-hard superstitious then I’m doing something right.

Freeing them by taking a shit on them?
I don't believe either but your brand of freedom?
Keep it.

geddit?

September 18, 2006, 04:04 PM

I don't give a fuck what you say. The reference is further back in the thread, where I foolishly and unsucessfully attempted to get someone to discuss a religious comment of theirs in a religious discussion forum.

Bullshit brother - point it the fuck out.

The joke wasn't harmless, I may have pulled a muscle laughing at how quick she chimed in. But what actually isn't harmless is her belief she is entitled to have a discussion completely on her terms. Discussions are two way streets. A pattern of blow offs or subject changes is not harmless. Making explicit sweeping statements or implying them and then running away when questioned on it is not harmless.

She gave you the best she could.
Her argument didn't hold water and she admitted it.
The match was over, she was out cold and you stood there kicking.

But neither one of you self righteous defenders of Atheism could see it.

Good game champs! Chalk another one up for the good guys.

MadPhatCat

September 18, 2006, 04:15 PM

Bullshit brother - point it the fuck out.
The only bullshit I see here is you jumping in like a jealous and over-protective brother to "protect" another poster. Since you are so committed to a discussion you aren't involved in, I imagine you can read back a few pages and find it yourself. I doubt you lack the reading skills to do so.

She gave you the best she could.
Her argument didn't hold water and she admitted it.
The match was over, she was out cold and you stood there kicking.

But neither one of you self righteous defenders of Atheism could see it.

Good game champs! Chalk another one up for the good guys.

Are you dense, or just pretending? One, I wasn't defending atheism in this thread, just making an observation. Two, and pay attention here: She made additional comments after the my contradiction claim which were confusing to say the least. Trying to get her to clarify or respond to my interpretations of her comments is what the bulk of my posts to her have been about. You clearly, did not play a good game as you missed this. Three, she never admitted a contradiction, she never admitted her argument did not "hold water."

Kassiana

September 18, 2006, 04:22 PM

Because you believe something unproven, does it entitle you to tell another that they're hellbound
--Pagans and Unitarian Universalists generally don't believe in hell. I don't believe hell exists anywhere but in the minds of those who believe in it.

Just in case some lurkers mistake me for the kind of theist you're objecting to. I'm not. :)

geddit?

September 18, 2006, 04:48 PM

The only bullshit I see here is you jumping in like a jealous and over-protective brother to "protect" another poster. Since you are so committed to a discussion you aren't involved in, I imagine you can read back a few pages and find it yourself. I doubt you lack the reading skills to do so.

Guilty on the jump-in/hi-jack.
Something hit a chord....:rolleyes:
underdogging? It seemed to be getting mean and a2 is responsible for her own battles.
Good luck on finding it. Not in this one and I can't find it the others.

Are you dense, or just pretending? One, I wasn't defending atheism in this thread, just making an observation. Two, and pay attention here: She made additional comments after the my contradiction claim which were confusing to say the least. Trying to get her to clarify or respond to my interpretations of her comments is what the bulk of my posts to her have been about. You clearly, did not play a good game as you missed this. Three, she never admitted a contradiction, she never admitted her argument did not "hold water."

Dense - I'm pulling out of multiple threads.
no gg for me.

I apologise for any personal comments.

geddit?

geddit?

September 18, 2006, 05:05 PM

--Pagans and Unitarian Universalists generally don't believe in hell. I don't believe hell exists anywhere but in the minds of those who believe in it.

Just in case some lurkers mistake me for the kind of theist you're objecting to. I'm not. :)

I'm usually not a strong objector.;)
Trying - a little too desperately - to find common ground.

geddit?

angela2

September 18, 2006, 05:11 PM

I'm usually not a strong objector.;)
Trying - a little too desperately - to find common ground.

geddit?
Easy to find common ground with Kassiana. She's friendly, non-defensive and has no problems with anyone voicing and opinion as long as they don't tell her that what she believes is stupid.

southernhybrid

September 18, 2006, 05:11 PM

Oh my but there's a lot of sniping on this thread. :D

I do wonder how you would view all this, if say, one day all your "good fortune" was gone and you found yourself "scrabbling for the good life?"

I can't speak for Joan but would like to answer your question. My life has not always been easy as an atheist. I've been poor and I've been in a bad marriage. I worked hard to improve my situation. I could easily live on far less money than we currently have and still be happy. Since I am a woman, I will probably outlive my husband. It will be devastating but I will once again try to cope and make the best of whatever situation life deals me. Suffering from a painful disease and/or losing one's beloved spouse are the two most common and devastating things that most people experience as they age. I am carefully planning the future of my life so we will be able to remain as happy and independent as possible for as long as possible. Nobody can control all the aspects of life. Having served the elderly for almost thirty years, makes me well aware of that. One thing I'm currently working on is building a community of friends that share my values and beliefs. When you're old and frail, having friends and/or family can make the difference between happiness and sorrow, joy and lonliness.

My evangelical Xian father suffers from an extremely painful neuropathy as well as severe and chronic depression. He's a miserable old man who suffers greatly. He's isolated from most of his family and friends and can't even make it to church anymore. Perhaps his belief in an afterlife gives him some kind of comfort. I don't judge him for holding onto what I consider an illusion, but his beliefs would give me no comfort if I were in his situation. His god certainly hasn't helped ease his pain despite all the prayers made on his behalf. My loving mother is the one that I see as the comforter. Even with all his pain, he has someone to live for and despite what he may think, it isn't Jesus. It's my mom.

My elderly clients are all Xians and they seem to be having plenty of difficulty adjusting to the hardships of advanced age. When you are young, and healthy, it's easy to give credit to a god or gods. It's easy to find simple things to enrich your life. When you're old and sick, it's more likely you'll be asking god why he has abandoned you. I know because I've heard this countless times from my clients. My clients seem to lose much of their religiosity with old age or they cry out harder to their god, asking for the impossible.

I had a wonderful 86 year old atheist client two years ago. She suffered too but she always maintained a certain zest for life, never complained to me and more importantly she never had to wonder why her god had abandoned her. She told me about her atheist father, and how it gave him joy to help his neighbors by sharing food during the depression, even though he had very little himself. Happiness can be found in many ways and having a belief in god hasn't got a damn thing to do with it.

I loved my charmed and happy life but I'm certainly not naive enough to think I might find myself in a very different situation before my life ends.

Kassiana

September 18, 2006, 06:26 PM

Easy to find common ground with Kassiana. She's friendly, non-defensive and has no problems with anyone voicing and opinion as long as they don't tell her that what she believes is stupid.
Thanks, angela. I appreciate your kindness.

Actually, you can tell me that what I believe is stupid. That's okay. What you can't do is assume you know what I believe, tell me what I believe, and it's not what I believe. That's the main thing that gets me steamed up, someone else saying, "Well, you're a theist and you believe that God loves you more than anyone else..." Hello? I do not.

If you're gonna make fun of my stupid beliefs, at least make fun of MY stupid beliefs, not someone else's you credit to me. :D

MadPhatCat

September 18, 2006, 07:43 PM

Easy to find common ground with Kassiana. She's friendly, non-defensive and has no problems with anyone voicing and opinion as long as they don't tell her that what she believes is stupid.

:D Ah, such a tricky one. You do realize that constantly refering to our "discussion" while talking to other posters is not actually fooling anyone. Saying you won't respond to me is fine, if you don't actually keep bringing it up. :wave:

Jobar

September 18, 2006, 07:57 PM

She gave you the best she could.
Her argument didn't hold water and she admitted it.
The match was over, she was out cold and you stood there kicking.

I think he's right, MPC.

There's better and more deserving targets on this board than angela, IMO. I'd name them, but I expect that would be considered a no-no; if you want me to, I'll PM you some.

Alethias

September 18, 2006, 08:06 PM

Some of the posts in this thread are beginning to edge dangerously close to that dang rules line. If your muse leads you to make personal comments about the specific poster, your muse is leading you down the perilous path of pernicious perdition.

If, on the other hand, your muse leads you to use words like fuck or damn or shit or piss, as long as it is in the context of dealing with the topic of someones post and not attacking the person, your muse is guiding you in the path of rightstanding with the rules.

Please Play Peacefully, People.

Alethias,
GRD Moderator

MadPhatCat

September 18, 2006, 09:58 PM

Wow, I've never lived on the edge before. I thought my life was enriched before, but I was wrong. If there is a God of 'Livin on the Edge' I'm gonna have to believe in it now. Oh wait, that doesn't make any sense... :)

Anywhoo, thought maybe I would specifically respond to the OP, since I haven't done that yet. My life is fine, not fantastic but above average for the developed world, so I'm WAY above the average for the world. I don't attribute this to my lack of belief... I attribute it to luck, to the good fortune of being born to middle class parents in America who gave me a good upbringing and a good combination of genes which make me healthier and smarter than the average bear.

Why many religious people attribute their good fortune in life to religion is beyond me. There are literally hundreds of millions of examples to the contrary. How can that darn God be so nice to some because they believe, yet it allows horrible suffering to so many others? It just doesn't make sense. It almost seems like belief in God has nothing to do with a person's lot in life... imagine that.

Jobar

September 18, 2006, 10:32 PM

Back a page was this.

And yet you still believe. WHY? You have no evidential arguments, and if you see no reward in this life, do you believe solely on the promise of pie in the sky, by and by, when you die?

But all that is based only on words, angela! You have no way of knowing that Biff the Unclean isn't exactly right, and that your religion isn't just a huge and long-running con game!

Why would your God make it so that unbelievers in Him actually live better, in the world? Isn't it within His power to grant believers lives which are more satisfying- at least internally? (That would mean that believers would be on average happier, I think, and I don't see that, at all.)

Why? Well, if Jesus suffered, I'm not surprised that I suffer. In fact, Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble."

It's great when believers don't have troubles. But by and large, people who have troubles and still believe make much better witnesses.

You see, I believe because Jesus Christ made it possible for me to have a relationship with God. I don't believe because of what I can get out of God.

Oh yes. I know just how impoverished my life would be if I only believed that for which I had evidence. Been there, done that.

Angela, trouble is a part of life. Anyway, Jesus said more than once that those who believed on him should but ask, and it would be granted to them. Want me to find chapter and verse? And wasn't his suffering supposed to be so that we wouldn't have to? Why shouldn't that also mean suffering in this world, if you believe his suffering was propitiary?

I think that people who bear up under their own suffering, bravely and unconquerably, are admirable whatever their beliefs. But that's the flip side of this topic- we're talking about joy, happiness, pleasure.

You say, " I believe because Jesus Christ made it possible for me to have a relationship with God." I think you mean 'that' instead of 'because', which is circular. What you wrote makes it look like the *cause* of your belief, is *what* you believe. We already know the 'what', but my question was 'WHY?'

And though I think he could have stated it much less abrasively, MPC is right that if you think your "relationship" with Jesus makes you less impoverished, you must feel you have gotten something from him. If you feel less impoverished, that means you feel enriched, doesn't it?

Oh, and as a skeptic and an atheist, I've only believed that for which I have at least some good evidence for more than thirty years, and I don't feel one bit impoverished by that. Rather the opposite- I feel enriched in that I know that my beliefs are in accord with the real world; I feel I can bear the suffering better, and enjoy the happiness more, because I'm better in tune with reality.

DefendsReason

September 18, 2006, 10:42 PM

Because it's fun. I like it. It makes me happy.

Sounds just like any substance addiction. And religion is an addiction. Also an escape fom reality and very dangerous.

DefendsReason

September 18, 2006, 10:44 PM

I enjoy my life immensely thanks only to God.

Oh man, that is just plain sad. :frown:

Aetas

September 19, 2006, 12:53 AM

Good to hear, i hope i have half as exciting a life, but i think i'd be happy with just the loving girlfriend. Also you should use some of that good fortune too help the less fortunate.

Kassiana

September 19, 2006, 09:35 AM

Sounds just like any substance addiction.
--Or any avid reader. Or any sports fan. Or any movie lover. Yes. :) Darn those readers anyway, having fun reading! Don't they know it's really an addiction, an escape from reality? They should just read IRS manuals!

Come on. This is ridiculous. I described my religion as "fun" and "something I like." By your silly definition of that as "substance addiction," people need to ban amusement parks, bike riding, rock climbing, and all amusing activities because they're equivalent to getting stoned every night. ::rolls eyes::

angela2

September 19, 2006, 09:42 AM

I feel enriched in that I know that my beliefs are in accord with the real world; I feel I can bear the suffering better, and enjoy the happiness more, because I'm better in tune with reality.
Now that's just how I feel. You expressed it perfectly.

Johnny Skeptic

September 19, 2006, 10:54 AM

I feel enriched in that I know that my beliefs are in accord with the real world; I feel I can bear the suffering better, and enjoy the happiness more, because I'm better in tune with reality.

Now that's just how I feel. You expressed it perfectly.

But who or what is the source of how you feel?

satur9poet

September 19, 2006, 12:20 PM

Which brings me to my point: why should I have all this good fortune while Christians all over the world are suffering and scrabbling for a good life? I'm a militant atheist, for Satan's sake! Either He doesn't exist, or he's got a sick sense of humour.

Well, I have a similar theory about why some people live the good life while others suffer in vain--it has to do with morality. Basically, I've found that good people suffer more and have to get by with less than immoral people, regardless of theistic belief. I've seen nasty, corrupt theists live in luxury, good health, and peace while generally moral atheists get the short end of the stick, and vice-versa. Case-in-point: corrupt CEO's committ a rash of despicable deeds yet are rewarded with multibillion-dollar salaries, while decent, hard-working people cannot afford health insurance for their children. I'm not passing judgment on anyone's morality in particular, but it seems that "good" people are "inhibited" by things like honor, integrity, etc. which prevents them from being cunning enough to gain such material wealth. Corrupt politicians and religious leaders spoon-feed this to the masses constantly: "GOOD citizens/believers do x, y, and z..." At the same time, these people are making a helluva lot of money, enjoying leisure time and vacations, while practicing the opposite of what they preach. Are they suffering? Hell no. It's become increasingly obvious to me that in this country for the past 5 or so years that an honest living = barely making it.

This is just an observation and maybe I'll get flamed for it, but it seems that human history is filled with cases such as this.

Jobar

September 19, 2006, 10:32 PM

Now that's just how I feel. You expressed it perfectly.

And that's all of my post you're going to address, is it?

Surely you realize, if one of us is correct in our view of reality, the other has to be wrong. Gods either exist, or not. So one of us must have beliefs which are *not* in tune with reality.

You seem unwilling (or unable) to defend your beliefs from my objections to them; I have yet to see any theistic argument I find in the least valid, and so I continue to have great confidence that I'm the one who's right, here. Until you, or some other believer, is willing and able to demonstrate the superiority of belief over unbelief, I have to say you're just wrong.

Joan of Bark

September 20, 2006, 12:21 AM

Good to hear, i hope i have half as exciting a life, but i think i'd be happy with just the loving girlfriend. Also you should use some of that good fortune too help the less fortunate.

How do you know that I don't?

First of all, you should re-read my original post. I did not say that I have good fortune by having a lot of money. In fact, when I lived in Canada I almost always made less than the average Canadian, but I contributed more to charity (as a percentage of my disposable income) than many theists. I wrote that I never wanted for anything I needed. That did not include Ferraris and trips on the Riviera (when I travel I stay in hostels).

Joan of Bark

September 20, 2006, 12:46 AM

You certainly have experienced many beautiful things and I am glad you have. You have brought what seems to be a problem for some(how can god allow an atheist...while a christian...) but as I see that your definition of the "good life" while extremely attractive is limited in its scope. There are many people whom you may very well desribe as, "scrabbling for a good life" who are amazed each and every day with their good life.

Just this morning I was surf-fishing with a friend as the sun was rising on the horizon and he was commenting on how well his children were doing. His children are older, college age and late highschool, while my children are 3,4 and 5 years old. He reflected on how the time has flown and yet how good it had been thus far. It had been so good, he pinches himself just to make sure it hasn't been a dream. He is enjoying the good life and yet, as far as I know, he has not experienced all that you have. He has his share of finanicial(sp?) problems and is caring full-time for his 90 year old mother-in-law. Both he and I enjoyed our time together, talked about church among other things. He went off to his job and I went off to mine.

I almost had to pinch myself, too!

I think you have completely missed the point of my post. I did not write that only my life is a good one ... there are many ways to enjoy a good life. Nor did I write that theists cannot have a good life. Only that there is NO CORRELATION between good fortune and theism. South America is the most Christian continent on the planet, yet poverty is rampant among good Catholics. I have never had to live in poverty (although while growing up in England I used a glorified outhouse and my bathtub was the kind you filled with a kettle), never had to spend a night on the street, never had to deal with any major crises, such as a major disease, etc. Many Jews, Muslims and Christians around the world would love to be so lucky.

As I write this, my cousin in England is fighting malignant testicular cancer. He is in his early twenties, is a devout Christian -- the son of a minister -- and just married a devout Christian (no need to direct sympathy my way, we're not that close). A few years ago in Canada a friend with whom I paraglided died in the middle of the night from an asthma attack. He was a few years younger than me, and like my cousin was a Christian who had just married another Christian (and had adopted her young daughter). (Come to think of it, my cousin and friend are both Baptists. Maybe God has a gripe with that sect?)

Now if these incidents had happened to me, many (but not all) theists would claim I was being punished by God for my heretical ways (I was raised an Anglican until I came to my senses). When good things happen to theists, or bad things to heretics, the theists are quick to credit God. So how can we explain the opposite? Simple: 1) there is no God, or 2) there are no rewards or punishments on Earth for one's behaviour.

Now, if you want to claim that God will get me back in the afterlife, that's another story. (If anyone follows me to Hell, please bring Smarties; they don't melt in the heat).:devil3:

I do wonder how you would view all this, if say, one day all your "good fortune" was gone and you found yourself "scrabbling for the good life?"

I would probably swear and stamp my feet and curse my luck for awhile, then calm down and get to work at making it better. But that is all idle speculation, and you can't enjoy life if so spend your time worrying about luck.

Kassiana

September 20, 2006, 03:12 AM

angela2

September 20, 2006, 09:31 AM

Surely you realize, if one of us is correct in our view of reality, the other has to be wrong. Gods either exist, or not. So one of us must have beliefs which are *not* in tune with reality.
Acutally I've come to think of God as the one who is really real. That's a phrase from my favorite theologian. So perhaps I'm not so concerned with the merely real.
You seem unwilling (or unable) to defend your beliefs from my objections to them;
That's correct. Most atheists here have a very materialistic understanding of reality and a deterministic view of how it works. Hence the proof I could offer is not 'real' to you. Nor would I expect it to be.
I have yet to see any theistic argument I find in the least valid
I understand.

angela2

September 20, 2006, 09:41 AM

Until you, or some other believer, is willing and able to demonstrate the superiority of belief over unbelief, I have to say you're just wrong.

Please, feel free to do this for me. I have no dog, bird, or cat in this fight. :)
Hi Kass,

There are no demonstrations in Christianity. At least not as I understand it. So I won't try to demonstrate that Christianity is superior to atheism or any belief system.

All I can say is, If you try it, and if you choose the church and clergy judiciously, you'll like it.

Otherwise I am in a situation of trying to demonstrate how good bubble gum ice cream tastes to someone who is unwilling to taste it.

"Taste and see; the Lord is good."

DefendsReason

September 20, 2006, 10:53 AM

--Or any avid reader. Or any sports fan. Or any movie lover. Yes. :) Darn those readers anyway, having fun reading! Don't they know it's really an addiction, an escape from reality? They should just read IRS manuals!

Come on. This is ridiculous. I described my religion as "fun" and "something I like." By your silly definition of that as "substance addiction," people need to ban amusement parks, bike riding, rock climbing, and all amusing activities because they're equivalent to getting stoned every night. ::rolls eyes::

No. You have said nothing that negates my assertion. I'm sure you don't feel you absolutely need to participate in those activites all of the time, and probably don't even think about them a lot. But the god delusion is most certainly a mind altering addiction. Can you walk away from your comforting and pleasing illusion of having a personal relationship with your imaginary sky-daddy? Of course you can't. It becomes a dependency. You've swallowed humanity's biggest fraud and hoax of all time -- hook, line, and sinker.

Some people chose to surrender their thinking mind in order to meld a 'fun' delusion into their paradigm of reality. Like a spreading cancer, it will continue to distort their sense of reasoning and logic in dealing with issues of real life until one day they find they're unable to effectively deal with those inevitable personal crises because that "miracle" for which their wild imagination had them slavishly beg through constant prayer never actually comes to fruition. Then what? We often read about sad and tragic cases of believers in pleasing fantasy who hit that solid wall of reality with no where else to turn because they've lost/surrendered the ability to help themselves in the cruel, but real world.

And as with any junkie, there is an avenue to rid oneself of the awful mind addiction. In this case, it's known as deconversion -- admittedly one of the most difficult things (and most rewarding) anyone can do for oneself.

DefendsReason

September 20, 2006, 10:55 AM

"Taste and see; the Lord is good."

Watch out for that Kool-Aid. :Cheeky:

Biff the unclean

September 20, 2006, 11:35 AM

"Taste and see; the Lord is good."
We have tasted it, most of us anyway. It tastes just like baloney. So, no thank you, I'll pass. I can't stomach baloney.

angela2

September 20, 2006, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by angela2

"Taste and see; the Lord is good."
Watch out for that Kool-Aid. :Cheeky:

???

Truth_Seeker

September 20, 2006, 05:24 PM

Watch out for that Kool-Aid. :Cheeky:

???

Just a guess....but probably a reference to Jim Jones and his use of Kool-aid.

angela2

September 20, 2006, 06:38 PM

Just a guess....but probably a reference to Jim Jones and his use of Kool-aid.
And that has precisely what to do with this thread?

Jobar

September 20, 2006, 07:24 PM

Might have something to do with the love of life found within the People's Temple.

Oh. Wait.

By the bye, angela, you might be surprised at what my actual beliefs are.
Jobar's pantheism (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=128574)
In fact I'm an idealist, not a materialist.

sourdough

September 20, 2006, 08:02 PM

It says in the Quran that Allah may well treat "rejectors" will lots of worldly niceness BUT it is only to lull them into a false sense of security! To make the torture all the worse!

You are totally fucked, I'm afraid. If I were you I would start wearing itchy underwear to acclimatise yourself to suffering.
jealous of others happines are you?
until someone dies and is totaly decomposed,then comes back and tells me how bad or good the afterlife is it shall remain a totaly nonexistent.
no one ever did so whos the fool now?:wave:

DefendsReason

September 20, 2006, 08:12 PM

"Taste and see; the Lord is good."

And that has precisely what to do with this thread?

Then what precisely does your perhaps unintended, yet clear reference to the well-established Christian love of cannibalism (drink His tasty blood, eat His tasty flesh) have to do with this thread?

Kassiana

September 20, 2006, 11:35 PM

You have said nothing that negates my assertion.
--Actually, I have. You equated finding something pleasurable to substance addiction. Are you now giving up that position? :)

I'm sure you don't feel you absolutely need to participate in those activites all of the time, and probably don't even think about them a lot.
--Wrong. I spend much of my time reading and thinking about what I'd like to read next. 2 for 2 so far. :)

Can you walk away from your comforting and pleasing illusion of having a personal relationship with your imaginary sky-daddy?
--Can you give up all uses of computers? Yes. Would you? Probably not. Similarly, I could, but I see no reason to. I like my beliefs, and there has never been an atheist I've seen who can demonstrate that my religious beliefs cause me or others tangible/measurable harm, so you can't even argue the "harm" of my beliefs as a reason to give them up.

You've swallowed humanity's biggest fraud and hoax of all time
--In your opinion. Not in mine.

The rest was just insults that didn't need a response, IMO. If you'd really like me to, feel free to point out which insults you want me to respond to, and I'll be glad to.

angela2

September 21, 2006, 12:15 AM

Then what precisely does your perhaps unintended, yet clear reference to the well-established Christian love of cannibalism (drink His tasty blood, eat His tasty flesh) have to do with this thread?
Good way to deflect a question, by asking another question. Why don't you answer my question and then I'll answer yours?

geddit?

September 21, 2006, 12:47 AM

--

--Can you give up all uses of computers? Yes. Would you? Probably not. Similarly, I could, but I see no reason to. I like my beliefs, and there has never been an atheist I've seen who can demonstrate that my religious beliefs cause me or others tangible/measurable harm, so you can't even argue the "harm" of my beliefs as a reason to give them up.

Not that I agree with your beliefs....
But I can't help but like you liking your beliefs.:Cheeky:

angela2

September 21, 2006, 09:53 AM

Not that I agree with your beliefs....
But I can't help but like you liking your beliefs.:Cheeky:
Kinda what I thought when I read Kass's response. "Oops. That's what playing with fire wil get you."

maxxmann

September 21, 2006, 10:54 AM

Only that there is NO CORRELATION between good fortune and theism...

Now if these incidents had happened to me, many (but not all) theists would claim I was being punished by God for my heretical ways (I was raised an Anglican until I came to my senses). When good things happen to theists, or bad things to heretics, the theists are quick to credit God. So how can we explain the opposite? Simple: 1) there is no God, or 2) there are no rewards or punishments on Earth for one's behaviour.

I agree with you, to some extent, that there is no correlation between good fortune and theism. I am a christian and can say that as I look at some aspects of my life and can certainly say that good fortune hasn't followed me. Defining "good fortune" or "the good life" is problematic though for the simple reason that what we call "good fortune" or whatever, in time reveals the opposite. Winning the lottery is certainly lucky, but there are enough stories out there that the lotto winner's life got worse in some regards. They have money, but a whole new set of problems as well.

As a christian, I use the word "blessed" when I see that things happen that I had no control over and have no problem giving credit to God. I do shy a way from saying, "look at that "bad luck" of that atheist, God is sure getting him." Actually, I am one to speak up for the atheist in that setting(not that they asked or even cared) I cannot stand thinking like that.

Now, if you want to claim that God will get me back in the afterlife, that's another story. (If anyone follows me to Hell, please bring Smarties; they don't melt in the heat).:devil3:

Actually, I won't claim that, if that is okay with you. One of my major frustrations with "christainity" right now is that most of the teaching that you hear is, "life is hard, but eternity awaits, just keep the faith." There are a lot of christians who have forfeited "the good life" because they are so focused on heaven. If christianity gives us no better answer to life than, "you'll get to go to heaven one day," and offers nothing of value in living THIS life, then it is pretty much worthless. I mean, i believe that heaven will be great, but I ain't dying to get there today!

would probably swear and stamp my feet and curse my luck for awhile, then calm down and get to work at making it better. But that is all idle speculation, and you can't enjoy life if so spend your time worrying about luck.

I am right there with you and you are so right that it difficult to enjoy life if you spend your time looking at all that is negative.

angela2

September 21, 2006, 02:14 PM

The Arbiter

September 21, 2006, 04:01 PM

Because only Christians are able to face death with peace and dignity, of course.

Kassiana

September 21, 2006, 04:26 PM

Not that I agree with your beliefs....
But I can't help but like you liking your beliefs.
I don't ask anyone to agree with my beliefs who is not me. :)

angela2

September 21, 2006, 05:37 PM

Because only Christians are able to face death with peace and dignity, of course.
If you say so.

show_no_mercy

September 21, 2006, 05:48 PM

If you say so.

Ummm... so what exactly was the purpose of your anecdote? Just felt the urge to share?

angela2

September 21, 2006, 08:12 PM

Ummm... so what exactly was the purpose of your anecdote? Just felt the urge to share?
The purpose of my anecdote was to give an anecdote of how Christian belief can be beneficial in this life. It said nothing about other beliefs or lack thereof.

Biff the unclean

September 21, 2006, 09:56 PM

The purpose of my anecdote was to give an anecdote of how Christian belief can be beneficial in this life. It said nothing about other beliefs or lack thereof.
Cancer will eat your head and after a series of strokes you face your "death with peace."
Sounds like fun, where do I sign up to be rebaptised?

Odd that the doctors let her faith bring her peace instead of pumping her full of morphine.
From the description of the illness anyone would welcome death.

Jobar

September 21, 2006, 10:37 PM

Just an anecdote. I knew a woman who had cancer of the skull. After nine years and several surgeries, including one which removed protions of her skull and replaced them with a metal plate, the cancer won. It reached her brain, and she died of a series of strokes. Before her death, she had large open tumors on her head and face. They grew down the side of her face and swallowd her left eye.

I visited her many times durning her last months. She was a Christian. She never let her illness destroy her psychologically. She faced her death with peace.

Angela, in a thread which is about love of life, joy, and happiness, do you realize that many of your posts have been about death and pain and suffering?

No question that the antithesis is always relevant to the thesis, but you seem to be stuck on the darker side of this subject. Any explanation for that?

Do you enjoy the suffering you do in the name of your religion? There's a name for that, you know.

angela2

September 22, 2006, 12:52 AM

Angela, in a thread which is about love of life, joy, and happiness, do you realize that many of your posts have been about death and pain and suffering?

No question that the antithesis is always relevant to the thesis, but you seem to be stuck on the darker side of this subject. Any explanation for that?

Do you enjoy the suffering you do in the name of your religion? There's a name for that, you know.
Ministering to this woman was a profound experience for me. It wasn't happiness I experienced, and if I prayed for her healing . I would have loved it if she could have gotten up out of that bed and resumed her life.

I was touched by her great courage, determination and faith in God. After her first stroke, she had physical therapy and proudly showed me how she was regaining the use of her hand. Even though she knew she was dying. That to me illustrates love of life, and I rejoiced with her.

What you don't know about me is that I attended a mildly charismatic church when I lived in Boston proper. I was one of the most joyous people in the church. And I still am in a more restrained church. Being able to give unmitigated praise to God is the most delightful thing I know.

Please don't be such a worry wart. The position of worrying about me is already taken.

geddit?

September 22, 2006, 12:58 AM

Hi Kass,

There are no demonstrations in Christianity. At least not as I understand it. So I won't try to demonstrate that Christianity is superior to atheism or any belief system.

All I can say is, If you try it, and if you choose the church and clergy judiciously, you'll like it.

Otherwise I am in a situation of trying to demonstrate how good bubble gum ice cream tastes to someone who is unwilling to taste it.

"Taste and see; the Lord is good."

Hiya A2,

Proselytizing....
Comparing religion and the taste of ice cream?
If it's so good - let it sell itself.;)

And my "No Solicitation Allowed" sign is always up.

geddit?

Biff the unclean

September 22, 2006, 01:08 AM

And I still am in a more restrained church. Being able to give unmitigated praise to God is the most delightful thing I know.

I would like everyone to note that there are at least three really funny, if obvious, blue comeback lines to this smug statement. And I’m not posting any of them. [/ tongue biting mode]

JamesBannon

September 22, 2006, 12:59 PM

She was a Christian. She never let her illness destroy her psychologically. She faced her death with peace.

I'm glad but this woman was fortunate. I've seen people turned into foaming and raging lunatics because of brain cancer (and various other malignancies) and it wasn't because they were Christian or atheist or whatever, it was the disease.

Truth_Seeker

September 22, 2006, 02:57 PM

There are no demonstrations in Christianity. At least not as I understand it. So I won't try to demonstrate that Christianity is superior to atheism or any belief system.

All I can say is, If you try it, and if you choose the church and clergy judiciously, you'll like it.

Otherwise I am in a situation of trying to demonstrate how good bubble gum ice cream tastes to someone who is unwilling to taste it.

"Taste and see; the Lord is good."

I love your analogy…..comparing how wonderful Christianity is to bubble gum ice cream! And how that, no matter if I say I have tried it before or not, I didn’t taste “your brand” of bubble gum ice cream, so I really don’t know how it tastes.

A pretty lady on the street walks up to me and says:

Pretty Lady: Hi! Have you tried bubble gum ice cream?
Me: Why, yes I did once. I didn’t like it too much, but hey….to each his own.
PL: No, I mean the bubble gum ice cream from the old fashion soda shop down on main street.
Me: You mean the Cone and Cola?
PL: Yes, the Cone and Cola on main street. They have bubble gum ice cream that is out of this world! You have no idea what bubble gum ice cream taste like until you have tried it there. They are old fashion over there…..no drive through, no fancy sugar cones…..no new fangled “soft serve”…….just good bubble gum ice cream. They even have old fashion soda jerks behind the counter to fill your order!
Me: Well then! Sounds like I need to head on over to the Cone and Cola some time for some of that wonderful bubble gum ice cream!
PL: Yes! I guarantee that once you taste it, you will like it. It will change you LIFE!

Me: Really? Change my life??? Wow. I am really intrigued now.

PL: Here is a brochure that you can take with you. It tells how much better this bubble gum ice cream is compared to everything else you have tried. It’s non-fattening, has tons of vitamins and minerals, and zero calories. I eat it all the time, and my life has been so much happier and fulfilled since I began eating C&C’s bubble gum ice cream.

Me: (takes brochure and begins to read)

Me: Is this all you eat?
PL: Of course not! I eat lots of other things. But I find that the more bubble gum ice cream I eat, the better I feel. So I eat as much of it as I can.
Me: Hummm…..I will be sure and try it some time then.
PL: Are you going now?
Me: Well….I suppose I could go now……why the rush?
PL: Well….you see….I am just worried about you. You have never really tasted bubble gum ice cream like this, and I only want you to begin to enjoy it now, so you can eat it and enjoy it for the rest of your life.
Me: Uhhhh….OK…..I guess I will go there now.
PL: Wonderful!!! Be sure and try what they call the "Trinity Treat"! It consists of One Cone, One Scoop of Bubble Gum Ice Cream, and covered with Nuts! Three different treats, yet all in one neat package! And may the Ice Cream fill your life with happiness and joy!
Me: Yeah……whatever.

I head on over to main street, and spot the C&C. As I walk in, I notice that everyone in there is seated around tables, all reading the same book. The cover of the book looks like the front of my ice cream brochure, but is a lot thicker. I notice that there is a bar, with bar stools around it, but no one is sitting at the bar. So I grab a stool, and belly up to the bar.

Soda Jerk behind bar: Can I help you?
Me: Yeah! I just met a lady on the street who said ya’ll had the BEST bubble gum ice cream ever. She said it would change my life? Is this true?
Jerk: Absolutely! Our bubble gum ice cream is better than you can possibly imagine. I have been eating it now for 25 years, and learn more about it’s benefits every day!
Me: So what makes your bubble gum ice cream so much better than, say, over at the Frosty Front?
Jerk: Don’t get me wrong! I know that there are other places to get bubble gum ice cream. Ours is just better!
Me: Have you tasted the ice cream at other places?
Jerk: Heavens no! Why would I want to do that, when I already have access to the best right here?
Me: Then how can you know for sure that yours is the best?
Jerk: Because of all of the benefits my ice cream provides!
Me: Such as?
Jerk: Well……I’m sorry to say that it can’t be explained. You can only experience the benefits of our bubble gum ice cream by tasting it. Only then will you understand.

Me: OK….I guess.

Jerk: Trust me.

Me: Sure, why not….Let’s not wait anymore. Give me some of that famous bubble gum ice cream! I am ready!
Jerk: Wonderful! I knew you would want some when you heard how good it was.

The Jerk pulls out a copy of the big book that everyone else is reading, and begins to reiterate all of the wonderful benefits of his ice cream.

Me: Whoa!!! I know all this stuff already! I told you I am ready to taste it! I have heard enough already. Give me some.
Jerk: Sure. First, you must simply believe that our bubble gum ice cream exists.
Me: What? Believe it exists? Of course I believe it exists. I have already told you that I have tried it before and didn’t like it.
Jerk: Yes……you did. But you haven’t tried THIS ice cream before.
Me: (frustrated at this point) OK, OK damnit! I believe that ice cream exists.
Jerk: I’m sorry. You must have misunderstood me. I said you need to believe that OUR ice cream exists.
Me: I am beginning to wonder if it does! First you tell me how wonderful your bubble gum ice cream is, and all of the wonderful benefits it can provide me. Then you beg me to try some, but tell me I have to believe it exists before I can taste it? I am beginning to think this is some kind of joke. Show me the ice cream Jerk!
Jerk: That is not the right attitude to have. You can’t just demand that I show you the ice cream! Besides, I can’t show it to you anyway. The ice cream will reveal itself to you through the Ice Cream Guide once you believe it exists.
Me: You mean to tell me that, even if I believe that YOUR bubble gum ice cream exists, I still don’t get to see it, or taste it?
Jerk: Of course you get to taste it! But no one gets to SEE it.

Me: HEY! Look over there!
The Jerk quickly looks over to the back door where I pointed, and I run out as fast as I can.

TS

angela2

September 22, 2006, 03:47 PM

Hiya A2,

Proselytizing....
Comparing religion and the taste of ice cream?
If it's so good - let it sell itself.;)

And my "No Solicitation Allowed" sign is always up.

geddit?
Hi geddit?

The last line is a scripture quote.

The comparison was for the little ones.

And it was the Lord, not religion.

Alethias

September 22, 2006, 03:56 PM

<snip>
TSTruth_Seeker. Your apt tale does an excellent job of explaining why I don't believe in any god or gods. Thanks for that.

Alethias.

Jobar

September 22, 2006, 07:05 PM

Yeah, good one, TS.

Why, I bet you could start your own bubble-gum-ice-cream religion, with its own scriptures and everything. But then, of course, I'd have to try you for heresy in the name of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (PBUHHH) (http://ipu.secularlife.org/councils/manual.php), so perhaps you'd better not. :D

Truth_Seeker

September 22, 2006, 09:49 PM

geddit?

September 22, 2006, 10:17 PM

Hi geddit?

The last line is a scripture quote.

The comparison was for the little ones.

And it was the Lord, not religion.

Hiya a2,

I think I'd better clarify a flippant accusation.

Mind you, I'm a cynical guy.:Cheeky:

When you hear a person say "If you try it", "Give it a shot" etc..., then some qualifiers(or not), followed by an assertion such as "You'll like it" or "You'll love it" - That person is doing something called a "Puppy Dog Close" or other tags. It's akin to "just get them in the door". Free trials, test drives - taking that puppy home for three nights is supposed to increase the chances of someone agreeing to your "offer". Once in proximity to the "offer" it's much harder to say no.

When you hear a person make an analogy with an "offer" and something you believe they really enjoy - that's called "anchoring". With groups it's called something like "association with a broad appeal". In this case that offer is the (L)ord and the anchor is ice cream.

These techniques(2 among many) are taken from observation of common behavior. People do it all the time in order to persuade - the motivation frequently is "I like it, I want/hope you to like it too". It's supposedly a tribal thing. Developed into a system, it is done to program, control and manipulate.

I have personally seen people employ these systems with chilling efficiency and in the case of stage magicians - hilarity. Media is another area where it's in common use.

I think you're a "I like it, I want/hope you like it too" person. But in the broader context, with the inclusion of organized religion, it's proselytizing.

I aint that smart, people - please feel free to rip this apart. I need to get a learn on.:Cheeky:

geddit?